First Cycle.. Advice, thoughts?

[aceroni]

Hey All.. Background on me: 28yo, been training natty since 14yo. stats: 5'8" 190lb.. right around 10% BF ( can see my obliques and serratus nice and sharp, abs aren't super sharp yet).
Anyway, my buddy and I decided to run some ostarine.. I am about three weeks in at 30mgs, feeling fuller and weight has dropped 2 lbs but thats about it. Body has been recompositioning nicely.
Anyway..
I decided if I was gonna have to PCT for the ostarine I might as well run something a little more.
Here's what I'm thinking.. Please give me feedback:

dmz 20/20/20/20
osta???? 30/30/30/30 .. Wondering if I should continue to run the osta with it or not... Still unsure.
CEL TUDCA 2/2/2/2
CEL cycle assist 8/8/8/8.. Might start this a week before adding the dmz


PCT will start at week 4, day after last dose of dmz..
Heres what I'm thinking...
Nolva 20/20/10/10
Cel M-test 6/6/6/6
Reduce XT 0/0/3/3/3/3
DAA 3g/3g/3g/3g
Cel PCT assist 4/4/4/4

What do you guys think.. Am I missing anything?
I have a bottle of the older version of erase.. is that worth using?
Is the osta worth using with the dmz or should I just save it for another time?
Please give feedback / criticism.
Thank you
Ace

 

[The Express 42]

You can continue the osta if you're liking the effects, I would probably try to double the dmz to 40mg daily though. I don't see any reason for you to run the erase, everything looks as it should! Like I said, only suggestion would be upping your dmz, Id say 30 at the minimum. Youre also going to experience some lethargy with the dmz. I would looking into adding some dermacrine or epiandro to help you out there.

 

[aceroni]

Isn't dermacrine just dhea?
Will that be strong enough to act as a "test base"

 

[The Express 42]

In my experience at 5 pumps daily, yes. If you have the opportunity to grab some Epiandro though I would do that, or R andro shred would serve the same purpose.

 

[carsonkeelor]

Test levels might drop. Would run 200mg test e for the entire cycle so your mood/sex drive etc. don't go to ****. Nolva at 20mg for all 4 weeks would be optimal as well.

 

[Sam stack]

Switch the ostarine with yk-11 and lgd for two months

 

[aceroni]

Thanks for the feedback. I'm on week 3 of osta and I really haven't felt any suppression signs yet.. I know this cycle Will shut me down, that's why I'm finishing with nolva.
Is there a reason you suggest running nolva at 20 all the way thru?? I thought tapering off Will help with estrogen rebound?

 

[carsonkeelor]

Tapering would help with rebound if you started at a dose higher than 20mg. Neither ostarine or dmz aromatize so there isn’t any reason for you to have excess estrogen in your body. If you took testosterone that would be a different story, but assuming you aren’t then 20mg of nolva for all four weeks should be just fine.

 

[The Express 42]

Obviously if running real test is an option go for that for sure. I like running serms for 6 weeks and tapering the last two. So I would do nolva 20/20/20/20/10/10

 

[booneman77]

Agreed with above that dmz should be higher for sure. Personally i see no benefit to osta if running something as strong as DMZ as any effect will be so overshadowed you wouldn't even notice it. Waste of product/$ IMO and not benefit to the stack.

As well, DMZ can be rough for lethargy so adding a base can help (espeically if running past 4 weeks).

Otherwise, layout looks very good.

 

[aceroni]

Thank you that was the answer I was looking for. So you'd drop the osta for the last four weeks and go dmz only??
I'm only doing 4 weeks that's why I was gonna stay at 20mg bc that's all one bottle allows

 

[aceroni]

Also, how bad is the lethargy at 20mg/ 4 weeks?
I'm a grad student so I'm basically always tired anyway

 

[The Express 42]

You’re not going to like it especially since you’ve already ran the osta a couple weeks. I’m telling you though you’re going to want to up that dose

 

[irishiron300]

You’re not going to like it especially since you’ve already ran the osta a couple weeks. I’m telling you though you’re going to want to up that dose

^pretty much.

There’s a huge difference between tired and lethargy. If you get there, you’ll know it

 

[aceroni]

Thanks again.
Are you speaking of dermacrine by iconic formulations on nutra?
That looks better seeing as the other two are dht and derm is dhea.
Idk if I can get another bottle of dmz what if I was to run 20/30/30 ?

 

[The Express 42]

Yes that’s the one and if I were you I might just finish the osta and save the dmz until o could get more

 

[Sam stack]

Dmz isn’t the worse for suppression. I wouldn’t worry to much. It’s kinda late to use a test base. If your tired then use a natty test booster. The boom stick maybe from redcon. Just keep the gains up. Eat a lot for the dmz. Watch out for the hepatotoxy and liver problems

 

[booneman77]

Thank you that was the answer I was looking for. So you'd drop the osta for the last four weeks and go dmz only??
I'm only doing 4 weeks that's why I was gonna stay at 20mg bc that's all one bottle allows

yes, no reason to run both simultaneously. However, 20 mg is not really enough to be useful. you'll get all the suppression and minimal benefits. Run it at a legit dose or not at all.

lethargy is pretty user dependent. I've run msten and dmz each and both without a base and been reasonably ok... a base just helps make it easier throughout the day.

 

[booneman77]

Dmz isn’t the worse for suppression. I wouldn’t worry to much. It’s kinda late to use a test base. If your tired then use a natty test booster. The boom stick maybe from redcon. Just keep the gains up. Eat a lot for the dmz. Watch out for the hepatotoxy and liver problems

late? he hasn't started the dmz at all yet.... and how can you say dmz not bad for suppression? i'd say thats mostly user dependent and certainly mroe likely than not to be very suppressive at reasonable doses

true hepatoxicity is really only an issue at high doses and after maybe 4+ weeks. Some tudca (750-1000mg/day) with your cycle support is all you would need to be alright.

 

[The Express 42]

Sam stack seems like one of the more uneducated people on this forum and that’s saying something. Natty t booster will do nothing while on cycle for your test. Nothing. Also boom stick is trash and I like RedCon1.

 

[aceroni]

What would you run the dmz at then..?
20/30/30/20??

 

[carsonkeelor]

Sam stack seems like one of the more uneducated people on this forum and that’s saying something. Natty t booster will do nothing while on cycle for your test. Nothing. Also boom stick is trash and I like RedCon1.

I second this, no booster will work on cycle. Save it for PCT or don’t bother with one at all and get a SERM.

 

[The Express 42]

I personally would ideally run dmz at 40/40/40/40 maybe at 30 the first couple days or so.

 

[booneman77]

What would you run the dmz at then..?
20/30/30/20??

at the lowest: 30/40/40/40

A much better cycle: 30/40/40/40/40/40

seriously, if you're going to run a compound that will suppress you and tax your entire body, it makes no sense to half-ass it. either hold off and save up the $ to buy enough to run it correctly, or dont run it at all.

 

[aceroni]

Thanks guys I appreciate the advice. Sounds like I need to get another bottle and some dermacrine then.
The only reason I was asking is bc I had read about ppl running 20mg x4 weeks with great results but it appears the consensus says 30-60mgs..
Edit: it's not that I don't have the cash, the guy at the sup store only had one. I should have asked if one was enough. The only thing he told me was to up my carbs big time

 

[Lowkii]

Little overkill on the PCT. Nolva and DAA would have been more then sufficient. I would have gone with Clomid over the Nolva tho... it's best for HTPA restart.

 

[aceroni]

I've heard people go either way on the nolva vs Clomid. But I've also read about more sides from clomid.
Some suggest doing 50 Clomid the first week and nolva as I wrote above. Is that a good idea or totally overkill?

 

[carsonkeelor]

Taking nolva and clomid simultaneously is a waste of money mate. They fight for the same receptors. Clomid has more sides over nolva and nolva is stronger on a mg per mg basis. Always have heard nolvadex gets your nuts producing test faster than clomid. Personally would run nolva at 20mg for 4 weeks. Or if you have enough, then 40/40/20/20.

 

[booneman77]

Thanks guys I appreciate the advice. Sounds like I need to get another bottle and some dermacrine then.
The only reason I was asking is bc I had read about ppl running 20mg x4 weeks with great results but it appears the consensus says 30-60mgs..
Edit: it's not that I don't have the cash, the guy at the sup store only had one. I should have asked if one was enough. The only thing he told me was to up my carbs big time

NEVER listen to the "guy at the supp store"... 99.9% of them dont know dik about shiit. Just trying to hawk their crap.

Also, its extremely shady that you even found dmz at a store as almost nobody even makes it in the US anymore let alone sells it as its all but banned (not formally but everyone has bailed on it due to the pending legal ramifications and imminent loss of product/money they would invest to have any stock)

 

[aceroni]

Well it could be completely bunk. I'm running osta by the same guys that made the dmz.. On week 4 @30 mg.. Week one was 15mg bc I'm a bitch.

So far I'm down 1-2lbs but I've dropped quite a bit of bf. I didn't caliper or anything but the mirror doesn't lie. Muscles are much more full looking.. But I don't think I'm suppressed, nuts low as ever and libido is normal.. I did bloods before but I haven't taken them again I was thinking after pct.

The guy used to compete said he ran it back in the day by I force, red box..
He told Me he could get me another bottle at cost but thought I'd be good @20 so it doesn't seem like he's just trying to sell me more ****

Edit: would super4 elite by Olympus labs (4andro) be a better choice than the dermacrine??

 

[booneman77]

Well it could be completely bunk. I'm running osta by the same guys that made the dmz.. On week 4 @30 mg.. Week one was 15mg bc I'm a bitch.

So far I'm down 1-2lbs but I've dropped quite a bit of bf. I didn't caliper or anything but the mirror doesn't lie. Muscles are much more full looking.. But I don't think I'm suppressed, nuts low as ever and libido is normal.. I did bloods before but I haven't taken them again I was thinking after pct.

The guy used to compete said he ran it back in the day by I force, red box..
He told Me he could get me another bottle at cost but thought I'd be good @20 so it doesn't seem like he's just trying to sell me more ****

Edit: would super4 elite by Olympus labs (4andro) be a better choice than the dermacrine??

well, he may have competed, but that doesn't make him smart... 20mg is too low. what is the brand you have?

super4 would be fine as well. really either is plenty sufficient and realistically you truly don't "require" either. it just helps make you feel a bit better and have a more normal libido, mood, etc.

 

[aceroni]

Idk the brand off the top of my head.. I'll take a pic when I get home from work
When I talked to him he said his buddies who only buy dmz from him love it and only take 2 caps @20mg total.
He actually looked shocked when I told him ppl on the internet say 40-60mgs.

Ok! Since the dhea products can convert to either test or E wouldn't that increase chances of estro sides?

Edit: I guess I'll just finish the 8wk of osta.. Probably run the dmz in the end of july/into August.

 

[The Express 42]

4 andro would work great and I would never recommend 60, 40 would be Max for me. If it’s legit, you don’t need anymore than 40mg

 

[carsonkeelor]

Idk the brand off the top of my head.. I'll take a pic when I get home from work
When I talked to him he said his buddies who only buy dmz from him love it and only take 2 caps @20mg total.
He actually looked shocked when I told him ppl on the internet say 40-60mgs.

Ok! Since the dhea products can convert to either test or E wouldn't that increase chances of estro sides?

Edit: I guess I'll just finish the 8wk of osta.. Probably run the dmz in the end of july/into August.

It depends on the dose of the dhea, but SOME conversation E will happen. Probably not something to worry about but keep it on your radar.

 

[Smont]

What would you run the dmz at then..?
20/30/30/20??

30mg bare minimum, 30-60mg is a pretty standard dose range for 4-6 weeks. If you can't afford to run a cycle correctly then done run 1 At all. Also, I'm not naming names or pointing fingers but there's people in this thread who have no clue what there talking about so use your head and please do a little extra research so you don't end up taking someone's terrible advice. Good luck with your cycle

 

[aceroni]

 

[aceroni]

 

[aceroni]

What are you saying is incorrect, the dosing, or the pct?
Since it is hepatotoxic I'll keep it between 4-5 weeks max.. Probably gonna do 20/30/30 or 40/ 30
and if needed up to 40. But if I'm getting results at 30 why jump up?

 

[booneman77]

View attachment 161772

maybe its the glare but there is no mg listed on that dmz.... I looked up that brand and there is literally ZERO trace of the dmz ever existing... its the store brand for "xpert nutrition" - which I assume is where you;re shopping... honestly, thats shady as all hell.

and clearly you areant listening to us... 3 weeks is dumb. 20mg is dumb. stop trying to half ass it. If you don't want to listen to us (the guys hwo have actually used dmz), stop asking and do what you want regardless.

 

[aceroni]

Nah it's the glare. Says 10mg.
It's a local store, the guy claims he knows the owner of that company and its a small company making gray area supps.
You're right it is kinda sketch.
On the other hand I am listening to you:

You must have missread in the post above yours I just said I'd run it for 4-5 weeks between 20-40mgs..
You mean it's a waste to ramp it up/down like : 20/30/40/40/30 ??

 

[booneman77]

Nah it's the glare. Says 10mg.
It's a local store, the guy claims he knows the owner of that company and its a small company making gray area supps.
You're right it is kinda sketch.
On the other hand I am listening to you:

You must have missread in the post above yours I just said I'd run it for 4-5 weeks between 20-40mgs..
You mean it's a waste to ramp it up/down like : 20/30/40/40/30 ??

Ha the company is the store. Xpert nutrition is the company and the store. If you look up that osta-b it comes up but still no info at all. It’s prob a guy capping flour in his basement ha.

I misread you post and only saw the 20/30/30 and thought that was all... my bad.

You can ramp but starting at 20 is a waste. 30+ only. There’s really no reason to ramp up and def don’t ramp down as there’s no point.

 

[aceroni]

It very well could be flour but I feel like I'm getting pretty good results from the osta.. Increased fullness, decreased bf, only lost two pounds (I think I just started week 4) but looking and feeling bigger

I guess the only way to find out is to run the dmz.
But I'm pretty sure it is by the same guy making the white magic, which is just 1,3dimethylamine plus other ****

 

[booneman77]

It very well could be flour but I feel like I'm getting pretty good results from the osta.. Increased fullness, decreased bf, only lost two pounds (I think I just started week 4) but looking and feeling bigger

I guess the only way to find out is to run the dmz.
But I'm pretty sure it is by the same guy making the white magic, which is just 1,3dimethylamine plus other ****

dmaa and dmz are on whole different levels tho in terms of accessibility and legality tho so I would say being able to make a dmaa supp is fairly easy for anyone vs dmz being extremely difficult

 

[aceroni]

Yeah I wasn't saying that means the product is legit I was just saying that I think it's the same brand. The store owner said the guy gets raws from China which seems suspect.
Only time will tell I guess.

 

[booneman77]

Yeah I wasn't saying that means the product is legit I was just saying that I think it's the same brand. The store owner said the guy gets raws from China which seems suspect.
Only time will tell I guess.

nah, every company gets their raws from china ha.

 

[aceroni]

Have you ever ran osta?

 

[The Express 42]

I’ve only tried Blackstone Labs osta back in the day and it gave me the worst panic attacks I’ve ever had. Like I had to pull over sometimes to just relax, couldn’t sleep without waking up in a panic. Legit stayed up like 72 hours at one point. Stopped taking it and everything went back to normal, still convinced they had something other than osta in there, but I’ve had no issues with several other “harsher” compounds

 

[Macka612]

Definitely extend it to 6 weeks if you can, im currently 4 weeks into my dmz and im up 13lbs and feel great will be going for 6 weeks for sure, im running mine like this 10/20/30/30/40/40 next time around i will be starting at minimum 20mg

 

[aceroni]

How has your bf changed?
Thanks for the input. Everyone here has told me 20 is too low but I do like the ramp up phase.
As far as my osta b run, I'm into week four. Have ran it like this so far 15/30/30/30
Gonna do another 4 weeks.. Maybe 30/30/30/30. Might do 45 but I'm not sure if that's just over kill or not.
Weighed in yesterday, up 2-3lbs from my starting weight (188/189->192) and looking much fuller and leaner. Feeling good no lethargy. Been really tired at night but that's typical for me with getting up at 530a every day

No paranoia/anxiety unless I drink too much caffeine and smoke too much pot at once. Feeling an increase in aggression in the gym, every workout has been balls to the wall which is how I like to train

Edit:: hey macka are you running anything as a test base, like 4ad or dermacrine?

 

[Macka612]

Gained a little bit but im leaner then i was expecting especially because my diet has been pretty **** the last 2 weeks.
As for the osta ive never tried it but have tried lgd and the lethargy was bad, worst ive experienced.

Just running 4ad at 375mg a day.