Bloodwork after SD
- 06-15-2005, 02:46 PM
Bloodwork after SD
Got my bloodwork back a full 7 weeks after my last SD cycle. PCT was 4 weeks long and this test was 3 weeks after PCT. My test was really low and my cholesterol was kinda shaddy even though I took RYR to help. Here are the levels:
Total Test: 270 (Normal range for 24-39 years old is 400-1080)
ALKP: 129 (Normal Range 25-100)
Total Cholesterol: 210 (normal range is below 200)
HDL: 37 (normal is above 40)
LDL: 158 (normal is below 130)
Triglyceride: 74 (normal is 0-149)
The only other things that were high or low were:
NEUT: 41.4 (normal is 42-75)
MONO: 11.8 (normal is 2-8)
EO: 4.9 (normal is 1-3)
The nurse mentioned wanting to put me on Androgel, but I told her I would rather not go that route due to having a newborn son (i would rather have injections....), but I have to talk to the Dr. to see what my options are. My questions is (and I hope Dr. D chimes in) is should I try some Vitrix before going on HRT or wait a bit longer to see if my levels come back closer to normal?
Last edited by tattoopierced1; 06-15-2005 at 08:04 PM.
- 06-15-2005, 02:48 PM
Forgot to add, I never had bloodwork done before hand (Bad me bad!) so I dont have base levels to go off of. My PCT consisted of Nolva 60/40/20/20 and Liver support (NAC and Milk Thistle, but my liver values were fine).
- 06-15-2005, 02:52 PM
If your sex drive is not suffering and you are willing to wait for your HRT consultation then I would use nothing. Otherwise, I see no issue with using some vitrix or other type of product.
06-15-2005, 02:53 PM
first, your lipids really arent that bad, so I would worry about those. Second I would not opt for hrt, your body will correct itself. Its way to early to worry about that. It take some people months to get there test levels back, I would definitley go the legal supp route before going to hrt.
06-15-2005, 03:27 PM
size: So if I wait for the HRT consultation, the Dr. said that I would be on HRT, and then in 6 months they would test my blood again to see where my levels are at. At this point, if my test levels were back to normal would they discontinue use of HRT? Reason I ask, is I dont want to be on HRT for the rest of my life if I dont have to be...I assumed it would be a short 6 month thing as long as things went well by talking to the Dr.
06-15-2005, 03:31 PM
i'd get the scrip written if he'll go 250mg/week, then keep it handy. recheck in 1-2 months and use the scrip if u need it. not all docs will prescribe that much test, so you may be able to save a trip later.
06-15-2005, 03:48 PM
good callOriginally Posted by same_old
06-15-2005, 04:29 PM
Maybe i'm talking out of my ass but if you're on HRT, wouldn't you be on it for life?? ...because as long as you are adding exogenous test, how will you ever ever recover? In six months, your test levels will look good because of the HRT meds, but if you ever go off HRT then your levels will drop again until you recover fully.Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
06-15-2005, 07:36 PM
Yes, you are correct. HRT will supress you...possibly permanently. You also have to go through the battle of finding a good doctor that will not only prescribe the test, but also the HCG to prevent testicular atrophy, as well as one that will monitor E2 and prescribe arimidex accordingly.
All in all it's an enormous pain in the ass that you should only consider an option if you have to.
06-15-2005, 08:06 PM
definatly something I'm going to have to read further into before making my decision.... I guess what I need to do is some google searches on HRT to see what other people experiences were with it, and if they were on it for a limited time and how their levels are now...
06-15-2005, 08:11 PM
could possibly asking my dr. to just prescribe me HCG help get test levels back to normal quicker and be safer than testosterone by itself at low dosage as he is suggesting? Also how long and at what dosage would I run the HCG...remember, I cant double and triple doses, I'm talking to a Dr. here and highly doubt he'll prescribe me more than the amount needed to do the job...
06-15-2005, 08:15 PM
I wouldn't go the vitrix route, it has chasted berry in it according to Dr. D, which causes even more test suppression. Monks used to take it to suppress test and therefore being easier to refrain from sex. I know I took it as a PCT for my SD and I didn't recover fully until after I got off the junk. I got 2 bottles left if you wanna buy em
06-15-2005, 08:29 PM
I have read some recent threads about Fenugreek being successful. It's cheap, maybe give it a shot, most say they responded(noticed some effect) in about 5-7 days. Good luck
Here is a piece of Dr. D's thread.
Originally Posted by dertynasty
it wasnt for only dr d lol. If you have imput please feel free to share
I don't mind, since you don't seem to have PM's. I might actually change the Nolva to 40,20,20,10. Unless your cycle really suppressed you visibly (not the best indicator) but your cycle looks very mild. I've not used RXT for PCT but most everyone says it's good stuff with fast action. So it's up to you, but the LX sure wouln't hurt if you have some and the Fenugreek is a must no matter what you choose. I really doubt you need Nolva and RXT from this cycle though. After an SD 4 weeker I did, all I used for PCT was Fen/DHEA for a 4 week PCT...
3,4,5,6 pills on the fen (which is as long as it works, 4 wks max) and 100mg morning + 100mg more at noon DHEA. Works great for low suppression 4 wk or less cycles. So basically, Nolva or RXT would probably work comparably well.
I suggest, for a 4wk PCT:
wk1: 40mg Nolva, 25mg RXT, 3 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk2: 40mg Nolva, 25mg RXT, 4 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 5 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
wk4: 20mg Nolva, 50mg RXT, 6 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
You could take 50mg RXT all the way or ramp down instead of up, I am not sure what would work better, but some say ramp down. It wouldn't hurt to ramp up though, estro rebound is not a prob with RXT. The RYR seem to work best w/ 1200mg. If you are more heavily shutdown, start w/ 60mg on the Nolva instead of 40. The Nolva is highly variable from person to person and you may need a differend dose from the next guy.
Last edited by dmxinc; 06-15-2005 at 08:40 PM. Reason: found a thread
06-15-2005, 09:35 PM
i might have to try that out for a month to see if that works dmxinc. If tests dont come back more toward normal, then I'm thinking of asking to go the HCG route to try and leave the testosterone as a last resort.
06-15-2005, 09:51 PM
How long did you do Superdrol cycle? I read you did a 4 weeks of pct but how long did you do the Superdrol cycle???
06-15-2005, 10:13 PM
AT your age I would certainly think long and hard before going the route of HRT. I assume you have a lot of other results from your bloodtest? I would think you need to examine E2, SHBG, FSH and LH at a minimum to try to determine the cause of the low test. I would also get free or better yet bioavailable test checked. I sure hope you bounce back bro. I am on HRT and its cool but I am 43. I dont think I would have wanted to use it since 25.
Regarding the post earlier about getting a script for 250mg/wk injections there are few if any reputable docs that are going to give a dose that high for true HRT.
06-16-2005, 02:28 AM
HCG in itself is suppressive just as test is...if you poke around at http://forum.mesomorphosis.com/forumdisplay.php?f=9 you can find some very good information regarding HRT. That's the HRT forum that SWALE moderates. SWALE is the premier source for information and the leading endocrinologist in regards to testosterone replacement therapy. He also treats and prescribes ancillaries to people using AAS, to give you an idea of where he is coming from.Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
06-16-2005, 02:30 AM
I'm 19 and on HRT...and it's not really a fun thing. I've never heard of anyone using 250mg/wk of cypionate for HRT, but a good doctor will prescribe as much as needed to get into an optimal range. Some people rise to supraphysiological levels on 100 mg/wk while others will only see a modest increase.Originally Posted by jcam222
06-16-2005, 06:24 AM
tattoopierced, hope you get your levels back to normal. I haven't done a whole lot of research on hormone replacement therapy so I don't have any advice or suggestions but if it were me I would do everything I could to avoid it. Keep us updated. Good luck bro. BTW how is your libido, and do you feel suppressed?
06-16-2005, 06:33 AM
I definatly dont want to be on HRT the rest of my life at this point in time. I guess I'll try the fenugreek suggestion with some DHEA and maybe some clomid in there to help stimulate LH and then get re-tested to see where I stand at. As long as I see an increase in test after that, then I'll keep it up for as long as I need to to get back to normal before looking much more into HRT, however, I am going to go over my options with my Dr. to see what he has to say.
06-16-2005, 07:21 AM
Damn man, i hope you get better. Just out of curiosity, how many pervious cycles have you run?
06-16-2005, 07:35 AM
2 SD cycles (1 with M1,4ADD but that blood test came out fine) and 1 1Test/4AD Dermal cycle. All cycles were followed up with Nolva for PCT as well as any other things needed (i.e. liver supps, etc...)Originally Posted by captain chet
So 3 cycles total.
06-16-2005, 09:27 AM
After some reading, I think I am going to try the following, and then get re-tested to see if numbers improve:
wk1: 100mg Clomid,3 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk2: 100mg Clomid,4 fenugreek caps, DHEA 200mg
wk4: 50mg Clomid, 5 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
wk4: 50mg Clomid, 6 fenugreek caps, DHEA 100mg
Reason I went with Clomid over Nolva is the LH stimulation...i think i read somewhere on here that it was better at stimulating LH over Nolva....any suggestions or altercations to this?
I'm also thinking of adding some Trib. in there as well...any recommendations on the dose?
06-16-2005, 09:39 AM
Stay off the trib, and I personally prefer Nolva after SD over Clomid. I feel like I just bounce back 3x better off it and quicker. Also up the DHEA doseage to like 250mg the first couple of weeks. your body isn't shut down from the SD anymore, it's just not producing test. Needs a little jump start. Go around 250mg 200mg 150mg 100mg. Just my personal experience. I've also learned to run DHEA during SD cycles and you arent suppresed as much
06-16-2005, 09:47 AM
What about the Fenugreek?Originally Posted by BOHICA
I also thought that Nolva didnt stimulate LH as well as Clomid...since this isnt technically PCT anymore, I am looking more toward stimulation of producing more test...would this assumption be correct in why I would go with Clomid over Nolva for this situation?
06-16-2005, 10:12 AM
Holy ****! This sounds pretty scary... First lemme say that I feel for ya bro and I hope you get your test up and running soon. And I know that in some cases were AAS were involved in prolonged suppression of the HTPA that long term clomid therapy (6months I think if memory is correct) was proven to bring test levels back to normal. I'm not saying it will take 6 months, however clomid has shown that it will over time bring up even the most chronically suppressed/damaged HTPA.Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
What was your SD dosing like? And what other cycles have you done if any (sorry I'm new here...), and if you have done other cycles how close to this last one were they? Also how do you feel libido wise? (just getting routine BW done or what). I've just started SD at 10mg a day and I was under the impression that it was not very suppressive. But I survived 30mg a day mt1 for 3wks so I guess this should be cake. Anyone else on this thread had similar experiences with being suppressed for a long time after a cycle? I think that it is concerning was is happening here and I wonder if we run this risk every time we cycle or if it is just the individual person vs the particular chemical or what.
06-16-2005, 10:17 AM
Definatly dont have any sexual problems with getting aroused...but I dont "want" sex as much if that makes sense, where as before I would want to go at least once a day, now is down to a couple times per week. I ran SD at 30mg a day, which is what I did before and didnt have a "drop" in my sex drive afterwards...from what I've been reading, my low test is probably a combo of SD but the majority is work stress and stress from having a new addition to the family. I think if I go on the combo I listed above and work on the stress at home (the job stress isnt going anywhere) then that will hopefully yield the best results....
06-16-2005, 10:19 AM
bump on the Fenugreek info...BOHICA can you chime in on this one?
06-16-2005, 10:26 AM
I'm not an expert, but I supect that stress and stuff is probably just really slowing your recovery. Plus the time of day has alot to do with it, in the morning is the highest time.Originally Posted by tattoopierced1
06-16-2005, 10:36 AM
the bloodwork was done in the morning...6am to be exact. i cant go without food for long once I wake up, so I got in there xtra early..Originally Posted by tanto
06-16-2005, 10:41 AM
Honestly, I don't think that's crazy low test for only 7 weeks out. I wouldn't go too high with the clomid, it'll make you feel ****ty at high doses. I think Bobo posted a chart once that showed that test levels fluctuated, high right after PCT, then dropping down for a bit, before leveling off after a couple of months. Banish all thoughts of HRT, I wouldn't even think of that until I tested low after 6 months hormone free (that includes anti-e/aromatase).
06-16-2005, 12:06 PM
thats kinda where I stand now. Went and picked up some Fenugreek, DHEA and have some Clomid ready to start tomorrow. I'm going to run this for a max. of 4 weeks and get retested. I have an appt. with my Dr. on Tuesday to discuss my options with him, but I am going to tell him that I am trying the herbal route first and want to schedule another bloodtest with more than just total test taken this time for 4 weeks from tomorrow. I'll be sure to keep everyone updated on progress and will post my bloodwork after I get it in 4 weeks to see how successful I was at this.
06-16-2005, 12:15 PM
Tomorrow I will be starting the following:
Fenugreek: 3 caps (1830mg)
Fenugreek: 4 caps (2440mg)
Fenugreek: 5 caps (3050mg)
Fenugreek: 6 caps (3660mg)
06-16-2005, 12:23 PM
I was running about 2 grams of Fenugreek a day, which equals to like 4 caps I think. Also make sure you split your DHEA doses up during the day, and not to take them at night. Take your Fenugreek at night. DHEA messes with your melatonin production, so if you take it at night its harder to sleep, while Fenugreek doesn't mess with it. I have been reading up on DHEA, and will be running it around 500mg a day with SD next time I decide to use it.
06-16-2005, 01:28 PM
AgreedOriginally Posted by intv
HRT should NOT be a consideration yet. It takes me quite a while to rebound from cycles, up to 3 months or so. More than likely you'll be fine, your blood work loos about my mine was after my last cycle. Just take the fenugreek if you wish, ZMA, trib if you like, blah blah.
Keep your diet in check, eat some garlic, fiber, and fish oil and you'll even out just fine I think.
06-16-2005, 02:02 PM
This is the only thing I'm worried about with DHEA, but hopefully the Clomid will help combat...this was pulled off of the meso forums as a reply from Swale:
"However, supplementing DHEA will not increase testosterone in adult males.
In fact, taking too much DHEA (more than 50mg per day) will actually lower Free Testosterone because supplemented DHEA converts to estrogen, which elevates SHBG, which binds more T and therefore causes "estrogen dominance"."
06-16-2005, 03:41 PM
I have only heard of DHEA during PCT - why are you thinking of it during the cycle?Originally Posted by BOHICA
06-16-2005, 03:44 PM
I was just about to say that.
Clomid will help and is often used in HRT to help someone get going again naturally. These are the tests you want done.
Bioavailable Testosterone (sometimes called â€śFree and Loosely Boundâ€?)
Free Testosterone (if Bio T is not available)
Estradiol (specify by the â€śExtraction Methodâ€? or â€śUltra-Sensitiveâ€?, otherwise they'll give you the one done on females which does not work with males)
Thyroid Panel (TSH, FT3, FT4)
Comprehensive Metabolic Panel
PSA (if over 40)
06-16-2005, 04:27 PM
Cuz I use it as kinda my buffer while on and off SD. That way it wont supress me as much while I'm on and make my PCT that much easier. Because its technically not an anti-e then I have no concern while using it during my cycle. I will then continue it for a week when I get off, then a week with that nolva and fenugreek, then a week of just dhea fen, then a week of just dhea then rest. That is how my PCT is normally set up and it worked wonders last time, once I got off the vitrix crap.
06-16-2005, 04:45 PM
Have others experienced this? I guess I thought the SD would overwhelm any DHEA you were taking on cycle, and you'd still be equally suppressed. I mean, if the DHEA works while on, then why not also take fenugreek while on? Just a thought...That way it wont supress me as much while I'm on and make my PCT that much easier.
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