TEST VIRGIN......?

joemoney

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Thinking of running my first cycle, Test e 250.

Would a low dose produce worthwhile gains or would it have to be 250mg twice a week?

Also could I get away with running .50mg arimidex and come pct clomid only or is nolva & clomid together a must?

Some say HCG isn't a must, but others do, your thoughts?

How would this be on the hair???

Thanks..........:thumbsup:
 
AnabolicGuru

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Enanthate and cypionate are usually ran 500mg per week, some people pin once a week, some prefer to pin 250 twice a week. Have arimidex incase estrogen problems occur; most people start with .5mg eod or e3d and adjust as necessary. I've never ran test, but most people seem to say its safe to go serm only pct on a simple test cycle, but that's something you'll have to look into more yourself
 
smith_69

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Pinning twice a week also helps to keep your levels from going to low, so your overlapping.

250 a week is too low
 
nosnmiveins

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250mg weekly would be great if you had low T, but its highly unlikely you fall into that category. Run a proper cycle of 500mg/weekly and enjoy the gains
 
Movin_weight

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You could make progress at 250 weekly but it's more of a cruising dose and you would prob be disappointed. Do like everyone else has mentioned.
 

jesus_sanchez

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If you start low now, you'll stay sensative to lower doses longer. The synergy with orals will be better, too. Your ancillaries look great. Enjoy the 12 weeks! (Please tell me you're running 12 weeks...LOL)
 

joemoney

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If you start low now, you'll stay sensative to lower doses longer. The synergy with orals will be better, too. Your ancillaries look great. Enjoy the 12 weeks! (Please tell me you're running 12 weeks...LOL)
Yeah lol, 12 weeks is the plan...... When you say start lower, what dosage are you talking about?

Anyone else, hcg a must? Just clomid enough? Hairline/hair shedding?
 
smith_69

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Yeah lol, 12 weeks is the plan...... When you say start lower, what dosage are you talking about?

Anyone else, hcg a must? Just clomid enough? Hairline/hair shedding?
Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG) is a peptide hormone that mimics the action of luteinizing hormone (LH). LH is the hormone that stimulates the testes to produce testosterone. (1) More specifically LH is the primary signal sent from the pituitary to the testes, which stimulates the leydig cells within the testes to produce testosterone.

When steroids are administered, LH levels rapidly decline. The absence of an LH signal from the pituitary causes the testes to stop producing testosterone, which causes rapid onset of testicular degeneration. The testicular degeneration begins with a reduction of leydig cell volume, and is then followed by rapid reductions in intra-testicular testosterone (ITT), peroxisomes, and Insulin-like factor 3 (INSL3) – All important bio-markers and factors for proper testicular function and testosterone production. (2-6,19) However, this degeneration can be prevented by a small maintenance dose of hCG ran throughout the cycle. Unfortunately, most steroid users have been engrained to believe that hCG should be used after a cycle, during PCT. Upon reviewing the science and basic endocrinology you will see that a faster and more complete recovery is possible if hCG is ran during a cycle.

Firstly, we must understand the clinical history of hCG to understand its purpose and its most efficient application. Many popular “steroid profiles” advocate using hCG at a dose of 2500-5000iu once or twice a week. These were the kind of dosages used in the historical (1960’s) hCG studies for hypogonadal men who had reduced testicular sensitivity due to prolonged LH deficiency. (21,22) A prolonged LH deficiency causes the testes to desensitize, requiring a higher hCG dose for ample stimulation. In men with normal LH levels and normal testicular sensitivity, the maximum increase of testosterone is seen from a dose of only 250iu, with minimal increases obtained from 500iu or even 5000iu. (2,11) (It appears the testes maximum secretion of testosterone is about 140% above their normal capacity.) (12-18) If you have allowed your testes to desensitize over the length of a typical steroid cycle, (8-16 weeks) then you would require a higher dose to elicit a response in an attempt to restore normal testicular size and function – but there is cost to this, and a high probability that you won’t regain full testicular function.

One term that is critical to understand is testosterone secretion capacity which is synonymous to testicular sensitivity. This is the amount of testosterone your testes can produce from any given LH or hCG stimulation. Therefore, if you have reduced testosterone secretion capacity (reduced testicular sensitivity), it will take more LH or hCG stimulation to produce the same result as if you had normal testosterone secretion capacity. If you reduce your testosterone secretion capacity too much, then no amount of LH or hCG stimulation will trigger normal testosterone production – and this leads to permanently reduced testosterone production.

To get an idea of how quickly you can reduce your testosterone secretion capacity from your average steroid cycle, consider this: LH levels are rapidly decreased by the 2nd day of steroid administration. (2,9,10) By shutting down the LH signal and allowing the testis to be non-functional over a 12-16 week period, leydig cell volume decreases 90%, ITT decreases 94%, INSL3 decreases 95%, while the capacity to secrete testosterone decreases as much as 98%. (2-6)

Note: visually analyzing testes size is a poor method of judging your actual testicular function, since testicular size is not directly related to the ability to secrete testosterone. (4) This is because the leydig cells, which are the primary sites of testosterone secretion, only make up about 10% of the total testicular volume. Therefore, when the testes may only appear 5-10% smaller, the testes ability to secrete testosterone upon LH or hCG stimulation can actually be significantly reduced to 98% of their normal production. (3-5) The point here is to not judge testosterone secretion capacity by testicular size.

The decreased testosterone secretion capacity caused by steroid use was well demonstrated in a study on power athletes who used steroids for 16 weeks, and were then administered 4500iu hCG post cycle. It was found that the steroid users were about 20 times less responsive to hCG, when compared to normal men who did not use steroids. (8) In other words, their testosterone secretion capacity was dramatically reduced because they did not receive an LH signal for 16 weeks. The testes essentially became desensitized and crippled. Case studies with steroid using patients show that aggressive long-term treatment with hCG at dosages as high as 10,000iu E3D for 12 weeks were unable to return full testicular size. (7) Another study with men using low dose steroids for 6 weeks showed unsuccessful return of Insulin-like factor-3 (INSL3) concentration in the testes upon 5000iu/wk of HCG treatment for 12 weeks (6) (INSL3 is an important biomarker for testosterone production potential and sperm production. 20)

These studies show that postponing hCG usage until the end of a steroid cycle increases your need for a higher dose of hCG, and decreases your odds of a full recovery. As a consequence to using a higher dose of hCG at the end of a cycle, estrogen will be increased disproportionately to testosterone, which then causes further HPTA suppression (from high estrogen) while increasing the risk of gyno. (11) For example, high doses of hCG have been found to raise estradiol up to 165%, while only raising testosterone 140%. (11) Higher doses of hCG are also known to reduce LH receptor concentration and degrade the enzymes responsible for testosterone synthesis within the testes (12,13,19 ) -- the last thing someone wants during recovery. While these negative effects of hCG can be partly mitigated by the use of a SERM such as tamoxifen, it will create further problems associated with using a toxic SERM (covered in another article).

In light of the above evidence, it becomes obvious that we must take preventative measures to avoid this testicular degeneration. We must protect our testicular sensitivity. Besides, with hCG being so readily available, and such a painless shot, it makes you wonder why anyone wouldn’t use it on cycle.

Based on studies with normal men using steroids, 100iu HCG administered everyday was enough to preserve full testicular function and ITT levels, without causing desensitization typically associated with higher doses of hCG. (2) It is important that low-dose hCG is started before testicular sensitivity is reduced, which appears to rapidly manifest within the first 2-3 weeks of steroid use. Also, it’s important to discontinue the hCG before you start PCT so your leydig cells are given a chance to re-sensitize to your body’s own LH production. (To help further enhance testicular sensitivity, the dietary supplement Toco-8 may be used)

A more convenient alternative to the above recommendation would be a twice a week shot of 200iu hCG, or possibly a once a week shot of 500iu. However, it is most desirable to adhere to a lower more frequent dose of hCG to mimic the body’s natural LH release and minimize estrogen conversion. If you are starting hCG late in the cycle, one could calculate a rough estimate for their required hCG ‘kick starting’ dosage by multiplying 40iu x days of LH absence, since the testes will be desensitized, thus requiring a higher dose. (ie. 40iu x 60 days = 2400iu HCG dose)

Note: If following the on cycle hCG protocol, hCG should NOT be used for PCT.

Recap –

For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 100iu hCG ED starting 7 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels, while initiating LH and FSH production from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn’t begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.

In conclusion, we have learned that utilizing hCG during a steroid cycle will significantly prevent testicular degeneration. This helps create a seamless transition from “on cycle” to “off cycle” thus avoiding the post cycle crash.
 

Heavychevss

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Age and idea of current hormone levels??

Starting level makes a difference, for example a 25 yr old with healthy test levels would make good gains on 250mg a week. 250 won't do much for someone older with lower test levels. Just an example that different scenarios need to be considered.
 

joemoney

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I appreciate the feedback gentlemen!!!

I'm 33, haven't done any pre-cycle bloods, this won't happen till later this year so I have time to get bloods done.

Age and idea of current hormone levels??

Starting level makes a difference, for example a 25 yr old with healthy test levels would make good gains on 250mg a week. 250 won't do much for someone older with lower test levels. Just an example that different scenarios need to be considered.
 
nosnmiveins

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Age and idea of current hormone levels??

Starting level makes a difference, for example a 25 yr old with healthy test levels would make good gains on 250mg a week. 250 won't do much for someone older with lower test levels. Just an example that different scenarios need to be considered.
You have it backwards
 

joemoney

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At 30 the 300trt test e had to levels around 1400. That's anabolic AF.
That'd be awesome lol.... I definitely like the less is more approach so if I can avoid pumping mad **** in me without needing to that'd be the route I'd want to take.......
 

joemoney

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Do I need two types of syringes/needles? One to pull the actually test out of the vial and one for the actual pinning?
I also had a buddy say that you gotta stack always, that one compound (test e) would be worth it, your opinions?
 
Movin_weight

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That'd be awesome lol.... I definitely like the less is more approach so if I can avoid pumping mad **** in me without needing to that'd be the route I'd want to take.......
I'm 30 and at 200mg weekly I was at 850 to give you perspective. When I'm in between 6-month blood work for TRT I'll blast at 400-500mg for a few months.

At the end of the day it's all about genetic predisposition and time. I cycled for years and never really broke 205 lean bc that was my genetic limit with low test levels. While on I could hit 205-208 at 10-11%bf but wasn't until hrt that I maintain 225-230lbs at same bf%.

To each there own but I love hrt and have no issue making it a lifestyle
 

joemoney

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I'm 30 and at 200mg weekly I was at 850 to give you perspective. When I'm in between 6-month blood work for TRT I'll blast at 400-500mg for a few months.

At the end of the day it's all about genetic predisposition and time. I cycled for years and never really broke 205 lean bc that was my genetic limit with low test levels. While on I could hit 205-208 at 10-11%bf but wasn't until hrt that I maintain 225-230lbs at same bf%.

To each there own but I love hrt and have no issue making it a lifestyle
I don't know much about TRT but I'm assuming that whoever is on that has super low test levels?

I don't really wanna be in that position, this will be my first run so I'm thinking maybe 300-400mg a week and go from there.

What would you guys recommend for a second cycle, higher dose of test or another compound added to test....?
 
Movin_weight

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I don't know much about TRT but I'm assuming that whoever is on that has super low test levels?

I don't really wanna be in that position, this will be my first run so I'm thinking maybe 300-400mg a week and go from there.

What would you guys recommend for a second cycle, higher dose of test or another compound added to test....?
Correct I was on the low end of normal in my late teens early 20's, and it got worse in my late 20's.

Time on is your friend for gains, you don't need crazy amount of compounds. I would opt for 16 weeks at 500 before introducing stronger compounds.
 

joemoney

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Correct I was on the low end of normal in my late teens early 20's, and it got worse in my late 20's.

Time on is your friend for gains, you don't need crazy amount of compounds. I would opt for 16 weeks at 500 before introducing stronger compounds.
I appreciate the response man, would anything other than test be stronger?

I was thinking if anything throwing in some deca, this would be for my second cycle of course....

First run I'm gonna go Test E at 300-400mg a week and was thinking of running that 12 weeks, or would you say 16 being a first cycle?

Planning on running aromasin with it and clomid for pct w an added test booster maybe....
 
Movin_weight

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I would opt for 16 personally

Sure deca is more anabolic, but more side effects. You could always throw an oral in at the beginning for a boost.
 

joemoney

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I would opt for 16 personally

Sure deca is more anabolic, but more side effects. You could always throw an oral in at the beginning for a boost.
Everyone jump starts w these bulk watery compounds though... I wanna put on clean quality keepable gains... If I can lean out some and add 10-15 pounds I'd be more than happy!!!
 

joemoney

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Do you think running test at 300mg a week for however long, then next run upping that dose to 400mg would there be a noticeable difference or 100mg's isn't much?
 
Movin_weight

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Do you think running test at 300mg a week for however long, then next run upping that dose to 400mg would there be a noticeable difference or 100mg's isn't much?
You would have to judge after your first run and see how you responded. It's also going to depend on genetics and other factors. You should be able to keep making progress though for sure.

You are right... everyone wants super fast results with high doses and orals etc... if you are in it for quality gains and have patients, then keep the dosing down and put in the time.
 

matty116589

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hey folks i put a thread up but got no replies dose anyone know if its a good idea to take test e 300 and tri test 400 together if so how much iv been tol half a ml or each twice a week
 

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