PH versus SARMs

[Laharl9999]

I'm on the last week of my first cycle. Been using Ostarine at 20mg for 3 weeks, I'm now on my fourth and final week. After pct and some time off everything I'd like to do another cycle to bulk as this has been a cut.

I was first considering andro 1-4/ epiandro/ sup3r 11, or some combo of those as I've been reading logs and they look promising. However, I'm having second thoughts and thinking maybe I should go with SARMs again. Ostarine has worked somewhat well and I still have 5 days left. To be honest I'm a bit worried about my hairline and other possible sides of the andros, namely liver/kidney stress. I also like that I've suffered no immediately apparent sides with Ostarine besides probable suppression, which I haven't felt, I'm just assuming is there.

After reading logs it seems the andros produce more consistent results in muscle gain. SARMs seem like they don't necessarily work for a lot of people, then other people get huge gains from them. It almost seems a marketing ploy. Another issue with SARMs is source. I've checked out a number of sources and I can't tell who is legit. Message boards besides this one have people who all say only 'SARM A company' is legit, then another board says only 'SARM B company' is legit. I'm not asking for a source as I know that's against the rules, just stating my findings.

My question to the experienced people here is, is it reasonable to expect gains from SARMs to rival that of an andro stack? What would be the best SARM stack that could rival an andro stack?

Stats, since it will probably be asked are 39, 193 lbs, 18% bf (it will be under 15% before I start the next cycle) and I've been training a little less than a year. I said I've trained over a year in a previous post, but I've since realized that I actually started just after my birthday in January of this year. I was told by a member I should train longer natural, and I fully respect that opinion. But my gains have slowed significantly and I feel like I've been at a standstill (until the Osta) even though I've tried various methods of breaking it. I haven't been lifting long but I've educated myself very well on training methods and nutrition which I have enacted very methodically. I would like a mild boost to break this plateau.

 

[jathan_howe]

If you respond well to the SARMS like some do, some people's gains rival Andro gains based on logs I've read. If you don't respond well to SARMS, Andro's will be the better option.
If Ostarine treated you well, LGD should be exponentially better

 

[Woody]

Save Super-11 for a cut.
For a bulk, LGD and Super DHEA would be a nice combo. You could add 1-Andro but since it's your second cycle I'd be cautious.

Regarding hair loss, if you have MPB avoid epiandro.

Run a cycle support like Arimicare pro with Sarms or andros IMO

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Four weeks on osta? Id be running that (or LGD/1andro/4andro/epiandro/etc) for 6wks+. The train is really only just out of the station at 4wks.

 

[Toren]

Four weeks on osta? Id be running that (or LGD/1andro/4andro/epiandro/etc) for 6wks+. The train is really only just out of the station at 4wks.

Indeed!

 

[InItForGainz]

Four weeks on osta? Id be running that (or LGD/1andro/4andro/epiandro/etc) for 6wks+. The train is really only just out of the station at 4wks.

Indeed!

X3
6 weeks minimum for Ostarine to make the most of it.

 

[BloodManor]

Four weeks on osta? Id be running that (or LGD/1andro/4andro/epiandro/etc) for 6wks+. The train is really only just out of the station at 4wks.

Was gonna say that
Sarms at 6-8 weeks seems the sweet spot
I'm doing lgd 10mg a day for 8 weeks ATM

 

[Laharl9999]

Ok, looks like I need some more Osta and focus better on my current cycle. I'll order some more when I'm off work, hopefully I can get it before I run out. I'll run this cycle out another 4 weeks to try to fully reap the benefits.

I have 2 bottles of Sup3r 11 arriving tomorrow. Could I throw that in cycle for the rest of this cut? This fat around my belly is really hanging on...

 

[justhere4comm]

Ok, looks like I need some more Osta and focus better on my current cycle. I'll order some more when I'm off work, hopefully I can get it before I run out. I'll run this cycle out another 4 weeks to try to fully reap the benefits.

I have 2 bottles of Sup3r 11 arriving tomorrow. Could I throw that in cycle for the rest of this cut? This fat around my belly is really hanging on...

I'm cutting too but that little pot belly though shrinking is putting up a fight!!! Lol.

Following with great interest in your progress my man.

 

[Laharl9999]

I'm cutting too but that little pot belly though shrinking is putting up a fight!!! Lol.

Following with great interest in your progress my man.

I appreciate the support. Sadly, I did this to myself in my first 5-6 months of lifting. I ran a dirty bulk and put on a ton of mass, just most of it ended up being fat. I went from 180 to 210 lbs in that time. I knew I was putting on a lot of fat but the strength increases were so good I didn't care, I thought I'd easily be able to shed off the fat as I'm naturally a thin guy. Turns out I was wrong and this fat wants to stay. I've really tuned my diet in and learned a lot in this process, with yet much more to learn.

 

[sespress]

Indeed!

Same with the Andro's, they get good after at least a month.

 

[Laharl9999]

Ok, so I've decided to go another 4 weeks on my current cycle. I ordered more ostarine last week, however it still hasn't shipped. I've dropped my osta dosage to 10mg per day to stretch it until I get more, but I run out in two days. Hopefully they ship it soon. I've added Super 11 to this cycle in the meantime to help with the cut. Things are still going well, I see more muscle and less fat everyday. I feel getting under 15% bf will not be a problem at this point.

I'd still like to plan for my next cycle because I like to be prepared. I'd like to have a list for myself so I can pick up items when they go on sale. I've already bought a lot of products on sale the last few weeks. 6 bottles of Super 11, Iron Legion vii-kt, 2 Invictus, 2 bottles each of Arimicare Pro, King's Blood and Super PCT.

I've decided my bulk cycle will be 1/4 andro stack. I'm curious, what is the difference between Super 1/4 and the Elite versions? I also need to pick up more clomid and some aromasin. My current stock of clomid is research grade and I'm not sure how to get pharmacy grade, is research grade sufficient? Same for aromasin, will research grade do?

Any help, advice or list of items I'll need would be much appreciated. I'd like to start watching for sales and picking up what I'll need.

 

[7eman7]

I'd run sarms over andros any day. Less sides, similar gains, can be run longer, and easy to recover from.

 

[Canadian]

Ostarine was such a smooth cycle that I plan to use my last bottle of epistane and then go sarms all the way.

 

[Canadian]

Was gonna say that
Sarms at 6-8 weeks seems the sweet spot
I'm doing lgd 10mg a day for 8 weeks ATM

Some people extends a sarm cycle to 12 weeks and they recover just fine. Without all the sides youd get from the andros. The main reason for this is because it's not toxic in the liver and it doesn't affect your blood pressure.

Epiandro made me anxious with BP through the roof. I was legit scared haha

 

[7eman7]

Some people extends a sarm cycle to 12 weeks and they recover just fine. Without all the sides youd get from the andros. The main reason for this is because it's not toxic in the liver and it doesn't affect your blood pressure.

Epiandro made me anxious with BP through the roof. I was legit scared haha

That's the beauty with sarms... Sure they suppress your total T levels, but ive seen multiple bloodwork panels/logs and people seem overlook the fact that LH and FSH remain within range or unchanged during a sarm cycle unlike an AAS/PH cycle where you get totally shutdown.

 

[NewAgeMayan]

Some people extends a sarm cycle to 12 weeks and they recover just fine. Without all the sides youd get from the andros. The main reason for this is because it's not toxic in the liver and it doesn't affect your blood pressure.

Epiandro made me anxious with BP through the roof. I was legit scared haha

SARMs can indeed affect liver values and BP, just as some people get absolutely no sides from andros.

 

[Canadian]

SARMs can indeed affect liver values and BP, just as some people get absolutely no sides from andros.

Yeah you're right to say that... personal experiences can vary, but generally speaking SARMs are very safe compared to most PHs (although there's still a lot of research to be done on those compounds to have a clear idea of what to expect on the long run)


It's sad that Olympus Labs discontinued LeGenD, but I guess we can't really blame you guys for trying to be as legal as possible.
SARMs souldn't be illegal IMO
People should have access to compounds that are "safe" to improve their body, just like any dumb b**ch can inject herself with collagen to have ugly duck lips. If she can decide whether or not it's safe for her, then I should be allowed to do the same. with my body.

Why can't we get legal products (that'll stay legal) to improve our physique through hard work? IDFK
Then again... nothing is legal in canada.......

 

[jathan_howe]

Ok, so I've decided to go another 4 weeks on my current cycle. I ordered more ostarine last week, however it still hasn't shipped. I've dropped my osta dosage to 10mg per day to stretch it until I get more, but I run out in two days. Hopefully they ship it soon. I've added Super 11 to this cycle in the meantime to help with the cut. Things are still going well, I see more muscle and less fat everyday. I feel getting under 15% bf will not be a problem at this point.

I'd still like to plan for my next cycle because I like to be prepared. I'd like to have a list for myself so I can pick up items when they go on sale. I've already bought a lot of products on sale the last few weeks. 6 bottles of Super 11, Iron Legion vii-kt, 2 Invictus, 2 bottles each of Arimicare Pro, King's Blood and Super PCT.

I've decided my bulk cycle will be 1/4 andro stack. I'm curious, what is the difference between Super 1/4 and the Elite versions? I also need to pick up more clomid and some aromasin. My current stock of clomid is research grade and I'm not sure how to get pharmacy grade, is research grade sufficient? Same for aromasin, will research grade do?

Any help, advice or list of items I'll need would be much appreciated. I'd like to start watching for sales and picking up what I'll need.

The Elite versions have more caps. Super 1 has 60 caps and Elite has 90, I think the same count goes for Super 4 and Super 4 Elite. Super Epi has 90 and Super Epi Elite has 120

 

[Canadian]

Ok, so I've decided to go another 4 weeks on my current cycle. I ordered more ostarine last week, however it still hasn't shipped. I've dropped my osta dosage to 10mg per day to stretch it until I get more, but I run out in two days. Hopefully they ship it soon. I've added Super 11 to this cycle in the meantime to help with the cut. Things are still going well, I see more muscle and less fat everyday. I feel getting under 15% bf will not be a problem at this point.

I'd still like to plan for my next cycle because I like to be prepared. I'd like to have a list for myself so I can pick up items when they go on sale. I've already bought a lot of products on sale the last few weeks. 6 bottles of Super 11, Iron Legion vii-kt, 2 Invictus, 2 bottles each of Arimicare Pro, King's Blood and Super PCT.

I've decided my bulk cycle will be 1/4 andro stack. I'm curious, what is the difference between Super 1/4 and the Elite versions? I also need to pick up more clomid and some aromasin. My current stock of clomid is research grade and I'm not sure how to get pharmacy grade, is research grade sufficient? Same for aromasin, will research grade do?

Any help, advice or list of items I'll need would be much appreciated. I'd like to start watching for sales and picking up what I'll need.

Research chems are fine as long as you have a good source and there's one with 40% halloween discount. I PM'd you

don't miss out on that deal... there's nothing better than being able to put your hands on cheap exemestane, because believe me exemestane isn't cheap. If it is then it's probably a bunk product

 

[M.I.D]

Have you had any lethargy from this cycle?

 

[Canadian]

Lethargy while on Ostarine isn't impossible, since it lowers your total test level

I guess it depends on how you respond to Osta
I felt great during my cycle, but some people feel lethargic. You wont really know until you tried it.

I have a friend who did 5 weeks of Superdrol and he felt no side effects... I felt like **** on SD.

 

[M.I.D]

Ostarine gave me bad lethargy

 

[Laharl9999]

I've had very minimal lethargy. So minimal I think it was more from lack of sleep on a few occasions. I haven't had the feeling I'm 'on' anything. I haven't even had strength increases.

What I feel ostarine has done is keep muscle mass while in a cut. I've done somewhat excessive cardio and should have seen more catabolism but I've kept the same strength and muscle mass while burning fat at a good rate. It has also helped a rotator cuff and elbow issues I was having. I was very surprised about 2 weeks in and the pain during my workout started going away.

 

[M.I.D]

I've had very minimal lethargy. So minimal I think it was more from lack of sleep on a few occasions. I haven't had the feeling I'm 'on' anything. I haven't even had strength increases.

What I feel ostarine has done is keep muscle mass while in a cut. I've done somewhat excessive cardio and should have seen more catabolism but I've kept the same strength and muscle mass while burning fat at a good rate. It has also helped a rotator cuff and elbow issues I was having. I was very surprised about 2 weeks in and the pain during my workout started going away.

What elbow issues are you having??? I am having some too

 

[Laharl9999]

What elbow issues are you having??? I am having some too

It's a weird pain that goes from my elbow toward my hand in both arms. I can no longer do chin-ups because of it. But it was hurting for curls or pretty much any pulling exercises. I'm back to doing curls fine and for back I use all cable exercises and it seems to be ok. Before the ostarine I was getting to the point where I was probably going to have to take a lot of time off and hope it healed. Now the pain is only present in chinups after I get past 10 reps or so.

 

[Canadian]

It's a weird pain that goes from my elbow toward my hand in both arms. I can no longer do chin-ups because of it. But it was hurting for curls or pretty much any pulling exercises. I'm back to doing curls fine and for back I use all cable exercises and it seems to be ok. Before the ostarine I was getting to the point where I was probably going to have to take a lot of time off and hope it healed. Now the pain is only present in chinups after I get past 10 reps or so.

sounds like the muscle INSIDE your shoulder are damaged. Those small injuries come and go all the time, because it heals slowly. I have the same problem with my left arm when I do chin-ups. I usually take a week off from time to time just to give it a rest, but it always come back to haunt my workouts. Didn't feel it as much while on Osta, but it's still there. I don't know how to get rid of it.

Maybe a long cycle of osta something like 12 weeks with minimal effort (maintaining your shape rather than trying to gain weight).

 

[Canadian]

nvm I read shoulder instead of elbow for some obscure reason

a pain in your elbow might be an inflamed tendon. Osta is supposed to be effective for that as well

 

[Vikingbro]

It's a weird pain that goes from my elbow toward my hand in both arms. I can no longer do chin-ups because of it. But it was hurting for curls or pretty much any pulling exercises. I'm back to doing curls fine and for back I use all cable exercises and it seems to be ok. Before the ostarine I was getting to the point where I was probably going to have to take a lot of time off and hope it healed. Now the pain is only present in chinups after I get past 10 reps or so.

This sounds exactly like my pain which I've put down to golfers elbow or tennis elbow, whatever sport floats your boat. It's tendon related I.e tendinitis. It does go but can take 6 months to fully go. I've had to stop certain exercises too

 

[M.I.D]

It's a weird pain that goes from my elbow toward my hand in both arms. I can no longer do chin-ups because of it. But it was hurting for curls or pretty much any pulling exercises. I'm back to doing curls fine and for back I use all cable exercises and it seems to be ok. Before the ostarine I was getting to the point where I was probably going to have to take a lot of time off and hope it healed. Now the pain is only present in chinups after I get past 10 reps or so.

Mine is right at the back of my elbow, I think its tendonitis on the insertion of my tricep tendon... struggle to press and it hurts when doing wide grip pulldowns.

 

[Laharl9999]

That sucks. Luckily my issue hasn't affected my bench. I need as much help as I can get on bench...

 

[fueledpassion]

Back to topic - I dont believe any of us have any way of knowing what exactly we're taking when it comes to PH's and SARMs. I tested one of my Ostarine sources once and it turned out to be low dose Anadrol - which was fine by me, lol. That said, I cant be 100% sure that my test was even accurate. I will say this though, PH's are more consistent and provide better results but then again, I'm referring to the older "PH" which were really steroids or pro-steroids.

Personally, I've found my best oral ever - and it's a high quality pharma grade M1A. That stuff is awesome and versatile. You get pro-hormone results and sides with a low dose and you get mass and strength that rivals ANYTHING out there when you take high doses. I can't imagine why people would mess around with other stuff that gives:

1) marginal results
2) sides
3) cost more than proven substances
4) still dont know what you're getting

That is how I feel about SARMs in general.
I say just stick with DMZ, Msten, M1A. You got all you need from those right there and they are all strong enough to give decent results st a low dose, which allows you to run them longer.

 

[Studhorse]

Yeah you're right to say that... personal experiences can vary, but generally speaking SARMs are very safe compared to most PHs (although there's still a lot of research to be done on those compounds to have a clear idea of what to expect on the long run)


It's sad that Olympus Labs discontinued LeGenD, but I guess we can't really blame you guys for trying to be as legal as possible.
SARMs souldn't be illegal IMO
People should have access to compounds that are "safe" to improve their body, just like any dumb b**ch can inject herself with collagen to have ugly duck lips. If she can decide whether or not it's safe for her, then I should be allowed to do the same. with my body.

Why can't we get legal products (that'll stay legal) to improve our physique through hard work? IDFK
Then again... nothing is legal in canada.......

In the States the FDA has to get there cut of the action or no dice. Also The PC police or court of public opinion don't like anything that might resembles a Steroid.

 

[fueledpassion]

In the States the FDA has to get there cut of the action or no dice. Also The PC police or court of public opinion don't like anything that might resembles a Steroid.

Aint that the truth! But if the liberals want a reformation on drug laws then they'll have to lighten up on us too. Cant go around excusing Class 1 drug use and not classes 2-5.

 

[Laharl9999]

My ostarine still hasn't shipped, I ordered it a week ago. Yesterday was my last dose. So I think I'll end this cycle here and start my pct. I'm just going to run clomid 25/25/12.5/12.5. I haven't felt suppressed and my junk is still working so I think I'll be fine with low clomid dose. Could I run an even lower dose? Like 12.5 all the way through?

Also, can I continue to run Super-11 through pct? I'd like to at least finish out the bottle I'm on, but not if it will negatively affect my recovery. I'll still be cutting through pct, need to get that bf below 15%.

 

[Woody]

My ostarine still hasn't shipped, I ordered it a week ago. Yesterday was my last dose. So I think I'll end this cycle here and start my pct. I'm just going to run clomid 25/25/12.5/12.5. I haven't felt suppressed and my junk is still working so I think I'll be fine with low clomid dose. Could I run an even lower dose? Like 12.5 all the way through?

Also, can I continue to run Super-11 through pct? I'd like to at least finish out the bottle I'm on, but not if it will negatively affect my recovery. I'll still be cutting through pct, need to get that bf below 15%.

12.5 all the way through will work even on stronger cycles.

Technically, Super-11 may be suppressive at higher doses

 

[NewAgeMayan]

My ostarine still hasn't shipped, I ordered it a week ago. Yesterday was my last dose. So I think I'll end this cycle here and start my pct. I'm just going to run clomid 25/25/12.5/12.5. I haven't felt suppressed and my junk is still working so I think I'll be fine with low clomid dose. Could I run an even lower dose? Like 12.5 all the way through?

Also, can I continue to run Super-11 through pct? I'd like to at least finish out the bottle I'm on, but not if it will negatively affect my recovery. I'll still be cutting through pct, need to get that bf below 15%.

12.5 all the way through will work even on stronger cycles.

Technically, Super-11 may be suppressive at higher doses

Concur.

You might be ok running 11kt through PCT, but depends on what you want to prioritise and are prepared to risk. Most people will want to achieve hormonal homeostasis ASAP and minimise catabolism/atrophy. Save the 11kt for on-cycle, and use something non hormonal like SuperNova off.