Best Andro Delivery systems?

zman86

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EDIT: I want to thank Hi-tech for selecting me to log their 1-Testosterone, which is 1-Andro utilizing the cyclosome tech. Once I receive the bottles I will link the log here. I also purchased a bottle of OL TheOne to use afterwards to compare effects.




Currently looking for a good Andro product for my pre-contest cut. I was going to go with the OL line Andros but I've read mix reviews.

Here are some that are on the market:

OL's S-SEDD: "Self-emulsifying drug delivery systems (SEDDS). SEDDS have been proven in the last two decades to be a phenomenal success. They are able to overcome some of the biggest challenges confronting contemporary delivery science today by improving on the oral bioavailability of compounds with poor and inconsistent gastrointestinal absorption. SEDDS do so by facilitating absorption of compounds via the intestinal lymphatic system and thus circumnavigating the hepatic first-pass effect. The lymphatic system is a drainage network that extends throughout the entire body in proximity to the circulatory system and is a logical target since orally administered compounds can work more effectively when transported selectively to the intestinal lymphatic system. The bioavailability of compounds that undergo significant first-pass metabolism in the liver, as Andros do without enhanced delivery methods, can be improved dramatically by utilizing the lymphatic system for absorption in the intestine, thus avoiding the destructive first-pass effect in the liver."

Primeval Lab, Black Stone Lab uses Liposomal technology: "Liposomes are sub-microscopic bubbles made from phospholipids. Phospholipids surround every type of cell in the human body. When placed in liquid solutions phospholipids automatically form bubbles that encapsulate the host solution, thus protecting the substance from its surrounding environment. Scientists discovered that these tiny liposomes can be filled with nutrients in order to protect them during digestion and thus allow for increased bioavailability. Phospholipids are resistant to the digestive enzymes found in the gut that would normally be responsible for prematurely breaking down nutrients. They also pass through intestinal barriers with ease due to their small size. Some studies have shown that liposomal encapsulation can increase bioavailability by as much as 1500%."

Hi-Tech Pharma, LG Science uses Cyclosome Delivery: "This one-of-a-kind technology brought to you by the leaders in Prohormones involves the entrapment of hydrophobic prohormones and other Testosterone boosting compounds in the form of water-soluble Prohormone–cyclodextrin (CD) complex in liposomes has been investigated as a new strategy to combine the relative advantages of CDs and liposomes into one system, namely Prohormone-in-CD-in-liposome systems called Cyclosome's. You can think of all this in terms of a ‘Trojan Horse,’ passing through the liver unharmed and intact. As opposed to being destroyed in the liver like all other hormonal products on the market, past and present. This new Cyclosome technology allows the ‘Trojan Horse’ to deliver prohormones and testosterone boosters to the systemic circulation by the intestinal lymphatic route, circumventing first-pass inactivation in the liver for the very first time. Almost all previous Oral capsules and tablets manufactured to increase testosterone — including Testosterone itself — are involved in the "first pass affect" which renders the active compounds virtually useless."

Any test results and research done on which is the best with the most bio-availability?
 
brofessorx

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The one that is cheapest
 
LeanEngineer

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Check out Hard rock supplements andro products as well. They have good reviews.
 
Afi140

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The one that is cheapest
The one that is cheapest WITH the largest dose of actives in price per serving/capsule-which will probably be OL andros followed by hi-tech-BSL probably being the lowest.
 
The_Old_Guy

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Rx Test is either Injectable or Trans-dermal... don't rule out TD administration.
 
zman86

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Money is not really a issue, getting high quality dosage matters most.

For example I wanna get the most out of a 400mg dose of a certain 1-andro but if another deliver system can get me the same result at 300mg??
 
zman86

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Rx Test is either Injectable or Trans-dermal... don't rule out TD administration.
Def will look into transdermal

At this point I'm feeling that pretty much all these various delivery systems (SEDD, Liposome, Cyclosome and etc) are just marketing gimmicks to attract customers to go with certain line of Andros over others. I'm sure they all help absorption and bio-availability rate to some extent but the true standard deviation of effectiveness between all of them are marginal.... Assuming all these companies are dosing correctly and not cheating the customers, I'm leaning towards just buying the product with the highest dosage for the buck.
 
brofessorx

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brofessorx

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The one that is cheapest WITH the largest dose of actives in price per serving/capsule.
Which ends up being the cheapest.
Ie, best bang for your buck
 
TexasLifter89

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brofessorx

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Def will look into transdermal

At this point I'm feeling that pretty much all these various delivery systems (SEDD, Liposome, Cyclosome and etc) are just marketing gimmicks to attract customers to go with certain line of Andros over others. I'm sure they all help absorption and bio-availability rate to some extent but the true standard deviation of effectiveness between all of them are marginal.
I and another person in research an development tried to make an actual proper dosed product when we were working on developing an andro line for a certain company.
The company chose to ignore what would be best for the consumer and instead go with something else.
Despite me being the only person in the company to have actually used every andro available ( epiandro, 1-dhea, 4-dhea, 19nor dhea, 7-oxo dhea)
one just has to hope sedds delivers exceptional results
 
TexasLifter89

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Def will look into transdermal

At this point I'm feeling that pretty much all these various delivery systems (SEDD, Liposome, Cyclosome and etc) are just marketing gimmicks to attract customers to go with certain line of Andros over others. I'm sure they all help absorption and bio-availability rate to some extent but the true standard deviation of effectiveness between all of them are marginal.... Assuming all these companies are dosing correctly and not cheating the customers, I'm leaning towards just buying the product with the highest dosage for the buck.
btw - check out the company promotions section, we have tons of logging opportunities going on for our various andro products.
 

hamdysayed

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I and another person in research an development tried to make an actual proper dosed product when we were working on developing an andro line for a certain company.
The company chose to ignore what would be best for the consumer and instead go with something else.
Despite me being the only person in the company to have actually used every andro available ( epiandro, 1-dhea, 4-dhea, 19nor dhea, 7-oxo dhea)
one just has to hope sedds delivers exceptional results
What would have been the best for consumer if that specific company followed yall conclusion?
 
hvactech

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It's really cliche when reps log their own products... Has anyone actually seen a negative review from an active rep of their own line up?
 
TexasLifter89

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It's really cliche when reps log their own products... Has anyone actually seen a negative review from an active rep of their own line up?
I don't think there is anything wrong with it, unless they are making up stuff. Scale is scale. Could and/or should one take it at less value? Sure. In our case, we have reps logging their own personal use and even more logs for non reps that are stating similar gains.
 
hvactech

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I don't think there is anything wrong with it, unless they are making up stuff. Scale is scale. Could and/or should one take it at less value? Sure. In our case, we have reps logging their own personal use and even more logs for non reps that are stating similar gains.
I trust your review and most reps in general but my point is people have to expect nothing short of a spectacular performing product before the log is even over...
 
TexasLifter89

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I trust your review and most reps in general but my point is people have to expect nothing short of a spectacular performing product before the log is even over...
I think that is valid, and then in our case we send them the 10+ logs of our various Andros over our different delivery systems. That way we show them the difference between a delivery system and the results it produces. In LG's case, why would we have increased our manufacturing cost if we didn't believe it worked better? Simple, we wouldn't. Back to OP, let me know if you have questions.

Here are some logs on various Andro products that our companies produce. I can dig up more on here and other forums if need be:

+ 7 lbs @ day 23 (sponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/278499-hugos-hi-tech-2.html
+ 10 lbs (unsponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/277273-aps-androbolic-250-a.html
+ 16.8 lbs (sponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/277571-aaron-gets-inducted-5.html
+ 9.2 lbs (sponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/278429-hi-tech-pharmaceuticals-4.html

The LG logs are all with our cyclosome delivery system. Happy to answer questions for you.
 
Afi140

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Edit
 
brofessorx

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What would have been the best for consumer if that specific company followed yall conclusion?
You would of had, for example, 4-dhea product dosed at 250mg capsules with 120 capsules per bottle.

That is a properly dosed 4-andro product.
The delivery system should be an added bonus.
 

hamdysayed

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You would of had, for example, 4-dhea product dosed at 250mg capsules with 120 capsules per bottle.

That is a properly dosed 4-andro product.
The delivery system should be an added bonus.
Damn I wanna buy that.
wished OL did that with there 4andro and 1 andro like the epiandro, still their dosing is one of the best .
 
NoAddedHmones

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You would of had, for example, 4-dhea product dosed at 250mg capsules with 120 capsules per bottle.

That is a properly dosed 4-andro product.
The delivery system should be an added bonus.
No you would not have, because andro's are licensed and expensive. To get that dosage, the price of the product would have been substantially more.

I never remembered a brofessorx working at OL just quietly.

Our Andros are still best dosed and value on the market, really don't see why there is a fuss.
 

hamdysayed

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You would of had, for example, 4-dhea product dosed at 250mg capsules with 120 capsules per bottle.

That is a properly dosed 4-andro product.
The delivery system should be an added bonus.
Where did he say he worked for OL I'm confused.
and correct OL UK is one of the best dosed and priced andros out there right now.
 
brofessorx

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660mg Ed for 4 weeks at 115 bones is a good deal for this product.

I don't think anyone else provides that dose for that price.

4 bottles at 230 would give a good 6 week cycle.

And it's legal.
 
zman86

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660mg Ed for 4 weeks at 115 bones is a good deal for this product.

I don't think anyone else provides that dose for that price.

4 bottles at 230 would give a good 6 week cycle.

And it's legal.
Wait which brand product are you referring to? We talking about OL 4-andro?
 
zman86

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I think that is valid, and then in our case we send them the 10+ logs of our various Andros over our different delivery systems. That way we show them the difference between a delivery system and the results it produces. In LG's case, why would we have increased our manufacturing cost if we didn't believe it worked better? Simple, we wouldn't. Back to OP, let me know if you have questions.

Here are some logs on various Andro products that our companies produce. I can dig up more on here and other forums if need be:

+ 7 lbs @ day 23 (sponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/278499-hugos-hi-tech-2.html
+ 10 lbs (unsponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/277273-aps-androbolic-250-a.html
+ 16.8 lbs (sponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/277571-aaron-gets-inducted-5.html
+ 9.2 lbs (sponsored) http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/278429-hi-tech-pharmaceuticals-4.html

The LG logs are all with our cyclosome delivery system. Happy to answer questions for you.
Those logs are pretty impressive. I'm part owner of a supplement store, we actually do carry hi-tech andros(my biz partner got them in). However I still like to keep a open mind and have about 3 weeks to decide which to use. Right now I'm stuck between s-sedd or cyclosome.
 
yates84

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All these delivery systems have the same end result, to skip the first pass of the liver. To say one is better than the other is just kinda idiotic. They all work, it's the price point and quality of the raws that really matters.
 
VaughnTrue

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All these delivery systems have the same end result, to skip the first pass of the liver. To say one is better than the other is just kinda idiotic. They all work, it's the price point and quality of the raws that really matters.
I really disagree with you here. Studies show that different compounds benefit to greater degrees from different delivery system: http://i.imgur.com/kYpaAgq.png

Consuming an ingredient with any dietary fat is a rudimentary delivery system. Is it as effective as other delivery systems? No, but it's still a "delivery system".



The goal is not only to bypass the liver(although that is a huge point of all of them that they try to modify), it is also to survive the acidic/detrimental actions of the stomach/gut, as well as provide a time release effect to deliver the goods directly into the blood stream and not elsewhere(such as in the stomach or small intestine).
 
VaughnTrue

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Try google. Lots of other products are being made with sedds and s sedds. I hope you don't think you have the exclusive on sedds.
this is correct. SEDDS is a great delivery system, however it is not exclusive to any one brand. The only delivery system that I know of to be truly exclusive currently is Cyclosome.
 
yates84

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I really disagree with you here. Studies show that different compounds benefit to greater degrees from different delivery system: http://i.imgur.com/kYpaAgq.png

Consuming an ingredient with any dietary fat is a rudimentary delivery system. Is it as effective as other delivery systems? No, but it's still a "delivery system".



The goal is not only to bypass the liver(although that is a huge point of all of them that they try to modify), it is also to survive the acidic/detrimental actions of the stomach/gut, as well as provide a time release effect to deliver the goods directly into the blood stream and not elsewhere(such as in the stomach or small intestine).
Very true on paper but I speak from my own personal experience. Sparta has a new delivery system coming out soon that looks simy amazing on paper but we are still going to rely on high andro doses and quality raws to set ourselves apart from the competition. All of these delivery systems work and some are superior on paper but I am a true believer in end user results.
 
VaughnTrue

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Very true on paper but I speak from my own personal experience. Sparta has a new delivery system coming out soon that looks simy amazing on paper but we are still going to rely on high andro doses and quality raws to set ourselves apart from the competition. All of these delivery systems work and some are superior on paper but I am a true believer in end user results.
I agree that dosing should be the cornerstone of the product. We are 100% on the same page there.
 
TexasLifter89

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I agree that dosing should be the cornerstone of the product. We are 100% on the same page there.
Not to mention, some our end user results are on page 1 of this thread and speak for themselves (so I think we have put ourselves out there to verify and prove it with end users as well).
 
The_Old_Guy

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Logs and weight:

So tell me how you differentiate what that weight is? You have fat, muscle, and water (maybe possible bone if on a GH product as well). Without DEXA (and even that is error prone at small amounts of "gain") telling me all the gain was muscle (or insinuating it) has me raising my eyebrows. Show me scale weight at maintenance for the last 3 months without PEDs, and then the same while on the PEDs - *that* is slightly more credible. But eating in a surplus (and probably training harder), with likely fat and water gain and claiming "10lbs!" without at least a DEXA/Bod-Pod (or an infinitely more intricate/involved combo of a scale, tape, and caliper) - I don't buy it. Heck, even one of those logs noted "My waist did increase some..."

I'd rather see strength numbers on the Big 3 - we have a yardstick from the A&M study (who did use DEXA IIRC) on the strength increases of oral 1-Andro. Unless you are new trainee with CNS adaptations still to come, you are not getting stronger without more muscle mass, and we know what natural progression looks like - so anything above that would be a true "laymen" indicator of what these things are doing. That's my opinion anyway.
 
yates84

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Logs and weight:

So tell me how you differentiate what that weight is? You have fat, muscle, and water (maybe possible bone if on a GH product as well). Without DEXA (and even that is error prone at small amounts of "gain") telling me all the gain was muscle (or insinuating it) has me raising my eyebrows. Show me scale weight at maintenance for the last 3 months without PEDs, and then the same while on the PEDs - *that* is slightly more credible. But eating in a surplus (and probably training harder), with likely fat and water gain and claiming "10lbs!" without at least a DEXA/Bod-Pod (or an infinitely more intricate/involved combo of a scale, tape, and caliper) - I don't buy it. Heck, even one of those logs noted "My waist did increase some..."

I'd rather see strength numbers on the Big 3 - we have a yardstick from the A&M study (who did use DEXA IIRC) on the strength increases of oral 1-Andro. Unless you are new trainee with CNS adaptations still to come, you are not getting stronger without more muscle mass, and we know what natural progression looks like - so anything above that would be a true "laymen" indicator of what these things are doing. That's my opinion anyway.
Studies are always so flawed and you never have all the proper data and it never really has full "real world" application. I e never been a fan of studies just because of the fact that they are always skewed in some way or another. Like you said, waaaay too many variables to take into account.
 
TexasLifter89

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Logs and weight:

So tell me how you differentiate what that weight is? You have fat, muscle, and water (maybe possible bone if on a GH product as well). Without DEXA (and even that is error prone at small amounts of "gain") telling me all the gain was muscle (or insinuating it) has me raising my eyebrows. Show me scale weight at maintenance for the last 3 months without PEDs, and then the same while on the PEDs - *that* is slightly more credible. But eating in a surplus (and probably training harder), with likely fat and water gain and claiming "10lbs!" without at least a DEXA/Bod-Pod (or an infinitely more intricate/involved combo of a scale, tape, and caliper) - I don't buy it. Heck, even one of those logs noted "My waist did increase some..."

I'd rather see strength numbers on the Big 3 - we have a yardstick from the A&M study (who did use DEXA IIRC) on the strength increases of oral 1-Andro. Unless you are new trainee with CNS adaptations still to come, you are not getting stronger without more muscle mass, and we know what natural progression looks like - so anything above that would be a true "laymen" indicator of what these things are doing. That's my opinion anyway.
I think we all understand that it's not pure muscle. We expect glycogen and we expect some water retention (this should go for anyone in this thread). No one is or was ever arguing with you there. However, not everyone of those logs was in a surplus diet for our product. The goal with showing multiple logs is to try and spread it out and diversify so that you can see the average and that there is not some massive outlier dragging the results up.

As you have said, and as I agree with Yates. Studies are extremely tough to do because of variables, so what I've attempted to do is gather a set of various logs and show what the end users saw.
 
The_Old_Guy

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And oral. Andriol
Learn something new every day, thanks. Just read up on it - fat encased lymphatic absorption. Does not seem very reliable, requiring massive amounts of capsules with highly variable results. Kind of apropos to the current conversation :D I *really* think we are seeing that the most milligrams for the cheapest price is the way to go - if it happens to include a fancy "system" even better, but price per mg rules the roost.
 

hamdysayed

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Very true on paper but I speak from my own personal experience. Sparta has a new delivery system coming out soon that looks simy amazing on paper but we are still going to rely on high andro doses and quality raws to set ourselves apart from the competition. All of these delivery systems work and some are superior on paper but I am a true believer in end user results.
Sounds great bro, when Sparta will come with these high dosed andros ?
 
brofessorx

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All these delivery systems have the same end result, to skip the first pass of the liver.
Exactly, the point is to skip where the conversion happens.
 
brofessorx

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Wait which brand product are you referring to? We talking about OL 4-andro?
Yea, nutriverse had 2 bottles for 115. (I'm assuming it's the 90ct, as the 60ct is cheaper)
 
zman86

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So takeaway I got so far is basically Quality of raw + amount/bottle/price trumps all, delivery system is just added bonus. Very good, my question has been answered.

Now I just did a price comparison for 60ct bottles of 1-Andro of some of the listed brands sold on Nutriverse/PHW

Edit* Hi-Tech: 6600mg/bottle at $59.99 = ~110mg/dollar
Primeval v2: 3900mg/bottle at $53.99 = ~72mg/dollar
LG: 3000mg/bottle at $64.99 = ~46mg/dollar
OL: 6600mg/bottle at $44.99 = ~146mg/dollar

Base on this, I think we all know who the clear winner is, I guess I will be sticking to my original plan haha
 
clown007

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So takeaway I got so far is basically Quality of raw + amount/bottle/price trumps all, delivery system is just added bonus. Very good, my question has been answered.

Now I just did a price comparison for 60ct bottles of 1-Andro of some of the listed brands sold on Nutriverse/PHW

Hi-Tech: 4500mg/bottle at $64.95 = ~69mg/dollar
Primeval v2: 3900mg/bottle at $53.99 = ~72mg/dollar
LG: 3000mg/bottle at $64.99 = ~46mg/dollar
OL: 6600mg/bottle at $44.99 = ~146mg/dollar

Base on this, I think we all know who the clear winner is, I guess I will be sticking to my original plan haha
Great breakdown using mg/dollar.
 

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ATM you can get the elite 90ct for less than that, too^ (and that 60ct for 33$)
 
TexasLifter89

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So takeaway I got so far is basically Quality of raw + amount/bottle/price trumps all, delivery system is just added bonus. Very good, my question has been answered.

Now I just did a price comparison for 60ct bottles of 1-Andro of some of the listed brands sold on Nutriverse/PHW

Hi-Tech: 4500mg/bottle at $64.95 = ~69mg/dollar
Primeval v2: 3900mg/bottle at $53.99 = ~72mg/dollar
LG: 3000mg/bottle at $64.99 = ~46mg/dollar
OL: 6600mg/bottle at $44.99 = ~146mg/dollar

Base on this, I think we all know who the clear winner is, I guess I will be sticking to my original plan haha
This is incorrect. First off our 1-testosterone product is 6600mg 1andro at 60 caps. I will need to find a link to a product page for it but look here on AM
 
clown007

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This is incorrect. First off our 1-testosterone product is 6600mg 1andro at 60 caps. I will need to find a link to a product page for it but look here on AM
That still puts it at a higher mg/dollar than OL, doesn't it?102mg/dollar.
 
TexasLifter89

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That still puts it at a higher mg/dollar than OL, doesn't it?102mg/dollar.
I'm not sure what our price is off the top of my head at retailers, but Ii don't think it's the one he is referring to. I also wanted to make it clear that we have a 6600mg 1andro product. I'm not sure if the price he quoted is for that mg bottle.

On mobile currently
 

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