Milk Thistle hinders oral gains- a myth?

hypo

hypo

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I'm sure we've all heard that taking milk thistle or other liver protectants during a cycle will hinder the absorption and effectiveness of orals. For SD, would a week before the cycle, and throughout the cycle and PCT (7 weeks total) be OK? I know it takes some time to become effective so hopefully by the end of the cycle it will be working to restore my liver to normal.
 
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Knowbull

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Provided that you arent drinking or using any drug besides pot, you may not even need it for more than a week prior and a week after, JMO
 
hypo

hypo

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Cool, then I will run it through the cycle.

Does it actually take a few weeks to kick in or is that a myth also?
 
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BryanM

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works from day 1 but its one of those supps that you wanna take yr round.

It will not fix your enzymes right away but will steadily help to lower them post cycle and will provide protection from enzymes getting too high during the cycle.
 
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Knowbull

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Yup I used it for years and it didnt hinder gains at all, if it gives you sides its good to stop or decrease your dose though, or run it for short periods.
 
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rhinochaser48

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Yup I used it for years and it didnt hinder gains at all, if it gives you sides its good to stop or decrease your dose though, or run it for short periods.

What kind of sides did you get from milk thistle?

I've used 1.8 grams per day without anything resembling sides. It is possible, of course, that I was oblivious to something minor.
 
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mak90

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What kind of sides did you get from milk thistle?

I've used 1.8 grams per day without anything resembling sides. It is possible, of course, that I was oblivious to something minor.
Here is something that may answer your ?
Milk Thistle Side Effects:

There are no known contra-indications to Milk Thistle supplements. There is, however, a caution for HIV patients, because many medications taken by individuals diagnosed with HIV/AIDS (PHAs) - such as protease inhibitors and non-nukes are processed by the liver enzyme CYP3A4 which is decreased by Silymarin. If Milk Thistle is taken by someone using protease inhibitors or non-nukes, it has the potential to raise levels of these drugs. This should not be a concern as long as levels of these drugs are monitored closely and dosage is adjusted to reach the desired levels.

Properties Of Milk Thistle:

Hepato-protective: Protects liver cells from incoming toxins, thereby also allowing it to more effectively process and release toxins that are already built up in the system.

Hepato-tonic: Strengthens the liver to function more effectively.

Anti-depressant: By helping to move stagnant liver energy.

Demulcent: Soothes and moistens. For both kidney and bladder irritations, as well as mucous membranes and inflammations of the skin and integumentary system.

Laxative: Mildly lubricates the bowels
 
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mak90

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There is also a mild side effect that occurs rarely from the usage of Milk Thistle. It can have a mild laxative effect caused by an increase in bile secretion. "Side effects from milk thistle happen only rarely, but may include stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headache, rash or other skin reactions, joint pain, impotence, and anaphylaxis (a life-threatening allergic reaction that causes throat tightness, shortness of breath, and, possibly, loss of consciousness.) The last two reactions listed are extremely rare. "
 
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rhinochaser48

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There is also a mild side effect that occurs rarely from the usage of Milk Thistle. It can have a mild laxative effect caused by an increase in bile secretion. "Side effects from milk thistle happen only rarely, but may include stomach pain, nausea, vomiting, diarrhea, headache, rash or other skin reactions, joint pain, impotence, and anaphylaxis (a life-threatening allergic reaction that causes throat tightness, shortness of breath, and, possibly, loss of consciousness.) The last two reactions listed are extremely rare. "


Hmmmmm.... Most sides sound like every side effect list of everything ever sold, but the impotence and anaphylaxis could be a concern.

I'd like to search a little bit more for a link to impotence, but won't have time until later.

Thanks for the info.
 
CEDeoudes59

CEDeoudes59

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I never found it effected gains at all...

by the way, where are you guys buying your milk thistle
I buy it in the grocery store, but it's probably a little cheaper online...
 
CEDeoudes59

CEDeoudes59

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wow you.are.right.
 
Chippewa

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I make capsules with half of 1fast's silymarin and the second half of b-a-c's liver formula:



They claim that Pirkoliv is "more effective than silymarin at preventing liver damage caused by chemicals and microorganisms an d in restoring liver functions."
 
CEDeoudes59

CEDeoudes59

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good info, where do you purchase that?
 
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french_muscle

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milk thistle will support liver values and functions, therefore theorically ENHANCING its capabilities to deactivate a 17aa compound, having said that its dose depending and nearly all of the 17aa compound bypass the liver. 17 alpha alkylation (methylation) involve the addition of an alkyl group (methyl or ethyl) to the alpha position of the 17 carbon of the steroid backbone. The alkylation at this position prevents the major route of androgen deactivation : oxidation to a 17-keto steroid from taking place. But what some people don't know is that 17alpha alkylation also can lessen the ability of the steroid to bind to the AR. But generally the two traits balance out such that we still have a more physiologically active steroid molecule. You can be sure taking milk thistle during a cycle of 10mg of M1T won't reduce its effects like some people can say... It's impact on the capability of the liver to reduce the steroid to its inactivate form will just be slightly improved... I assume improvements would be in the range of 5-10% bottom line is that the best way to take any liver supp is always after a cycle regardless of the methyl used.. However a good strategy conceivable is that you can run a cycle of milk thistle (4-8 weeks) before a cycle of steroid so your liver will be strenghten, followed by another treatmen of milk thistle post cycle
 
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french_muscle

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and here is an article very interesting ....

----------------------------------------------

Anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity: is it overstated?

Researchers: Dickerman RD, Pertusi RM, Zachariah NY, Dufour DR, McConathy WJ

The Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center, Fort Worth 76107-2699, USA.

Source: Clin J Sport Med 1999 Jan;9(1):34-9

Summary:

Subjects: The participants were bodybuilders taking self-directed regimens of anabolic steroids (n = 15) and bodybuilders not taking steroids (n = 10). Blood chemistry profiles from patients with viral hepatitis (n = 49) and exercising and non-exercising medical students (592) were used as controls.

Measurements:

The focus of the blood chemistry profiles was on aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels. (All indicators of liver function.)

Results:

In both groups of bodybuilders, CK, AST, and ALT were elevated, whereas GGT remained in the normal range. In contrast, patients with hepatitis had elevations of all three enzymes: ALT, AST, and GGT. Creatine kinase (CK) was elevated in all exercising groups. Patients with hepatitis were the only group in which a correlation was found between aminotransferases and GGT.

Discussion:

All in all this study was pretty straight forward. It set out to see if markers other than aminotransferase (AST) of liver function were correlated with steroid use in bodybuilders. In this study we saw the comparison of blood samples from steroid using bodybuilders, non-steroid using bodybuilders, med students, and patients with hepatitis. Several indicators of liver function were measured which included aspartate aminotransferase (AST), alanine aminotransferase (ALT), gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase (GGT), and creatine kinase (CK) levels. Creatine kinase is a common blood marker of muscle damage and thus it was elevated in those subjects who exercised. The other markers have normal values as well in healthy subjects (see table 1). I include a table of normal ranges for these markers simply to give you some idea of what your particular blood test results mean if you should have them done while on a cycle. And yes, if you are lucky enough to have a doctor who is willing to monitor your health knowing you are using anabolics please have your blood work done before, during, and after your cycles.

Please don’t misinterpret the reason for my inclusion of this study in Research Update. I am by no stretch of the imagination claiming that this study proves that 17-a-alkylated steroids are not hard on the liver. On the contrary, extremely high doses of 17-alkylated androgens taken for extended periods of time have been known to produce signs of hepatic adenomas, hepatocellular carcinomas, and hepatis-peliosis, all of which can be serious problems. The reason I felt this study warranted mention was that it showed that some researchers are working hard to delineate or clarify the true effects, and side effects, of anabolic steroid use in bodybuilders. In particular, R Dickerman and colleagues over at the Department of Biomedical Science, University of North Texas Health Science Center have recently done several studies investigating the effects of anabolic steroids on various aspects of physiology.

To summarize, the usual tests that have been relied on to declare hepatotoxicity from steroid use may be and are very likely to be, inadequate to justify such a claim when considering the type of subjects in this study. The lack of abnormality in gamma-glutamyltranspeptidase from bodybuilders using anabolics indicates that the elevated levels of the other markers may be misleading when it comes to true liver function and may be partly related to muscle damaged induced by resistance exercise. The authors of this study put it this way:

“Prior reports of anabolic steroid-induced hepatotoxicity based on elevated aminotransferase levels may have been overstated, because no exercising subjects, including steroid users, demonstrated hepatic dysfunction based on GGT levels. Such reports may have misled the medical community to emphasize steroid-induced hepatotoxicity when interpreting elevated aminotransferase levels and disregard muscle damage. For these reasons, when evaluating hepatic function in cases of anabolic steroid therapy or abuse, CK and GGT levels should be considered in addition to ALT and AST levels as essential elements of the assessment.�

This is not a statement giving the green light to bodybuilders who are or who intend to use androgens. It is simply a logical and interesting conclusion based on this study’s results. As usual, always educate yourself as to the risks involved with androgen use and take the necessary steps and precautions to minimize those risks if you plan on using them.
 
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ersatz

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I've heard "improvements" and subsequent inactivation could be as high as 20%. I agree with Julien that it might be better to run it off cycle, pre or post if one is realyl concerned or paranoid about deactivation. Nutraplanet has Milk Thistle(80% Silyamarin) for $8.95, http://www.nutraplanet.com/product_info.php?products_id=494 .

I prefer NAC and K-rala for liver protection as I believe them to be more effective.
 
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french_muscle

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've heard "improvements" and subsequent inactivation could be as high as 20%
ersatz where have you read this ? 20% is really high
 
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ersatz

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ersatz where have you read this ? 20% is really high
I'll have to dig up the study but I believe one subject displayed such results. I can't remember if it was a human or rat study but nonetheless it was an outlier.
 

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