Using Drugs to treat Gyno
- 11-10-2013, 11:52 AM
Using Drugs to treat Gyno
Gynecomastia: Causes & Cures
Gyno treatment protocols;
For estrogen-related gyno;
Raloxifene at 60mg daily for up to 90 days
Nolva at 20mg daily for up to 90 days
Torem at 60mg daily for up to 90 days
SERMs have a half-life of 5-7 days, with Raloxifene being the best one at binding to and blocking breast receptors for the purposes of gyno reversal/reduction according to all the available medical literature, then nolva, then torem
Keep in mind dosages are specific to the individual, but those are the standardly recommended ones. Anything past 90 days we risk breakdown of bone mineral density. Some whole milk and joint support supps for a few months afterwards may be able to take care of that, however.
Also some people may require a mild AI like Aromasin with their SERM treatment, doses range from 6.25mg daily, to 12.5mg daily, to 25mg daily on the high end. GET BLOODWORK, WITHOUT BLOODWORK YOU HAVE NO IDEA WHICH HORMONE IS WHACKY AND WHY Then proceed to treat from there.
Common Cures and treatments for Gyno
Mega Dosing on SERMS
There is no doubt that SERMs (Selective Estrogen Receptor Modulators) such as Clomid and Nolvadex can stimulate testosterone production.
Unfortunately, these drugs can have a host of side effects including -
Ocular Toxicity/Blurred Vision
Clomid in particular can lead to emotional side-effects and cause a man to feel like a weeping and emotionally distressed pregnant woman. This is because Clomid acts like an estrogen in certain parts of the brain and causes serious emotional episodes. To read more about the side-effects of SERM's, read this article.
Over Use of Anti-Estrogens
Aromatase inhibitors (AI's) such as Arimidex, Aromasin, and Formestane are powerful tools for reducing estrogen conversion from heavily aromatizing drugs such as Testosterone or Dianabol. While these drugs are sometimes useful during cycle, these drugs are often counter-productive to use during PCT.
More specifically, it is a common misconception that estrogen will be elevated post cycle. Generally, estrogen is below a normal level after a cycle, especially if the cycle consisted primarily of non-aromatizing (non-estrogenic) AAS's or pro-hormones. Additionally, if one uses proper anti-estrogen's during a cycle with aromatizing AAS's then estrogen will not be elevated in this scenario either. Therefore, assuming proper AI's are used during cycle, I can only recommend an AI be used for PCT if hCG is also used.
Using AI's when they are not needed can lead to extremely low estrogen, which can cause the following side-effects -
Lower Sex Drive / Erectile dysfunction
Lower HDL levels
Increased Risk of Heart Disease
Ultimately, this hurts your long and short term recovery and does not benefit you. Don't forget, normal levels of estrogen are necessary to support libido, muscle recovery, and testicular function.
For Prolactin Gyno;
Can use P5P or NOW Vitex (vitamin b6) or L-dopa for prevention. Don't use both together, since one can counter-indicate the effects of the other;
Can use Cabergoline for prevention/treatment of prolactin gyno;
The How To Use Caber Thread
I have had a few PM’s and came across too many threads inquiring about Cabergoline. Its uses, doses, sides and the like. So in this post I am going to give a bit of the information that I have come across and learned in my time.
What is Cabergoline?
>CABERGOLINE (Dostinex) – Caber is a very potent Dopamine Agonist. It acts on dopamine receptors in the hypothalamus to suppress prolactin production in the pituitary gland. It is used for Hyperprolactinemia. (elevated levels of prolactin in blood) It is also used in treatment of Parkinsons Disease. Now Ill get deeper into what the hell all that means a little further on.
>Half Life = 63-69 Hours. So I recommend to take Caber every third day. That’s at the far end of the range of its half life. Though this is what the dosing is for patients and studies that have been done and it works just fine. If you’re a stickler for dosing everything correctly I would obviously dose it every 2 and ½ days.
>Taking your dose of Caber before bed. (with or without food) will minimize your experience of sides.
- Documented Sides– (bad sides) Fatigue, nausea, dizziness, vertigo, headache, slightly abnormal vision, hot flashes. Now before you get all scared and think oh I cant take this. These sides were mostly reported when taking higher doses (1g+ a week) then we will be taking for our cycles. Also Caber has been found in some instances to increase the affects of Depression Medication. Word to the wise for those members using said meds.
-Other Sides- (good sides) I have not come across any scientific studies documenting them but many users have reported are…Increased Sex Drive, Stronger Erections, More Powerful Orgasms, Taking Less Time to Achieve A Full Erection after Ejactulation. And I will attest to the fact that those sides do happen. I have experienced all the “good sides” first hand. Also I have not experienced any of the “bad sides” ever.
There are even ppl who have been taking Caber only for the specific reason of the sexual sides. Now I of course do not condone this and would only recommend using Caber in conjuction with an AAS cycle.
-Another big thing I have heard members cry about as a reason not to take Caber, is that it has been found to cause Heart Valve Damage. This is true but as I stated earlier, only at a lot higher doses (3mg/per day!!) then we will be using. So stop whining.
-If for some reason you are prone to sides for any and everything, reducing your dose, while continuing the Caber will improve the severity of the sides. So basically if you experience a slight amount of sides at any given dose. Lower your dose until the sides fade but don’t stop using the caber! I would prefer some of the lesser sides of Caber to those of Tren and Deca any day.
How much Caber to use and when?
I prefer to use Caber while running any 19-Nor. (tren, deca) They affect the thyroid by lowering it (hypothyroidism) which causes the body to release more prolactin in the blood stream. (note- an overactive thyroid can cause elevated prolactin levels also) Prolactin at high levels has the affect of lowering sex drive and causing erectile dysfunction. We call it deca and fina ****. And from first hand experience, deca **** is not fun!! Tren is also a Progestin, it bonds to the receptor of the female sex hormone Progesterone. Which is responsible for preparing the body for milk production. I.E. By raising prolactin. So in order to avoid all that. Its best to run Caber from the very beginning of the cycle. I even prefer to run it into PCT for an extra boost.
STARTING DOSE – Beginning dose of Caber for use on cycle would be .25mg taken twice a week. For a total of .50 mg a week. Notice the point in front of the 25. Its not 25mg!! Its .25mg
This dose is usually enough for an 8 week Tren cycle. If your prone to sides, running deca/tren E, or just running the Tren A longer. Then take the .50 mg/per week for 4 weeks and then bump it up another .25mg a week. For a total of .75mg per week. If sides from the gear are very bad, you can even bump it up to a total of 1mg a week. You can continue to up your dose (only if your experiencing sides from Tren/Deca) of the Caber every 4 weeks until you have reached a maximum dose of 1mg twice a week or 2mg per week. But there is no reason to go no where near that high. If your still experiencing sides at 1mg/per week then your Caber is bunk or there is more serious underlying causes at work.
I was taking .5mg/p/w of Caber during a cycle with high doses of Tren. I actually didn’t have any fina **** problems but I did start Lactating! Yes my nipples were leaking. (its called Galactorrhea = lactation in the absence of nursing) lol So then I bumped up my dose to .50mg at 2 times a week (1mg/week) and the milk juice went away within a week. Other then that, I have had no problems and nothing but good experiences while taking Caber.
Now to give you an idea of the doses that are being taken by Parkinsons Disease and other Patients,
• Parkinson's disease: Monotherapy: Initial dose should be 0.5 mg daily. The usual maintenance dose is 2 to 4 mg daily. Combination therapy: Usually 2 to 6 mg daily.
• Tumors of the pituitary gland and other hyperprolactinemic conditions: Initially 0.5 mg per week, slowly titrated to 4.5 mg per week, if necessary.
• Note – Caber is not approved in the U.S. for the treatment of Parkinsons.
You can see why they would experience the sides that I stated above. Since we are no where near those doses, we should not experience any sides other then the “good ones.”
Caber for PCT – Basically the same dosing as during cycle. I would go with a good dose of .50per/week to 1mg per/week. You are not taking the Caber during PCT for its affects on Prolactin because the use of it during cycle will negate any of the prolactin affects. I use caber during PCT to help with the lowered sex drive and slight decrease in the strength of your erections. It will give a little bump to your sex drive and give you slightly more powerful erections. During PCT while many experience depression and such, knowing that you can still get it nice and hard when you want is always a plus in my book. Since Caber is also known for helping prevent gyno. Theres another reason to use it during PCT. I run Caber during every PCT and have found that it does help a great deal.
A lot of ppl put off adding Caber to their cycles because of the price and availability of it. But if you have access to and can afford it. I highly recommend Caber as an addition to your cycle and PCT.
Knew I forgot something. If you do find liquid Caber... most liquid caber is known for losing its strength over a period of time. A month or so and the strength will slowly decrease. (dont know why, but i know from first hand experience) So if thats all you can obtain then you can use slightly higher dosing levels towards the end of the cycle/PCT. To make up for the loss of the compounds strength. But dont go crazy.
*Caber is associated with the above noted side affects. Though those sides are less common and less severe then sides experienced while using Bromocriptine. For the record.
Use own judgement, dosing of everything is absolutely individual. Find own personal dose that works best for required effect, would be different and specific to every individual based on physiology and personal sensitivity response
HOW TO USE HCG
For preservation of testicular sensitivity, use 250iu every 4 day starting 14 days after your first AAS dose. At the end of the cycle, drop the hCG two weeks before the AAS clear the system. For example, you would drop hCG about the same time as your last Testosterone Enanthate shot. Or, if you are ending the cycle with orals, you would drop the hCG about 10 days before your last oral dose. This will allow for a sudden and even clearance in hormone levels. This will initiate a strong LH and FSH surge from the pituitary, to begin stimulating your testes to produce testosterone. Remember, recovery doesn't begin until you are off hCG since your body will not release its own LH until the hCG has cleared the system.
Originally Posted by Austinite
hCG-Unraveled: A valuable resource reference
Restoring Lydig Cell Desensitivity after a steroid cycle with the use of HCG
Anabolic steroid induced hypogonadism treated with human chorionic gonadotropin.
Also, a few words on the mechanisms behind the reversal of Atherosclerosis
An integrated approach for the mechanisms responsible for atherosclerotic plaque regression
How to Raise Testosterone levels and treat hypogonadism with Aromasin
Originally Posted by BRUNDELOriginally Posted by FalconOriginally Posted by BRUNDELOriginally Posted by Falcon#5) hypogonadism - so you're getting older, you've been cycling since you were 21 and your natty test levels just never get back in the good range, but you don't wanna go HRT??? Aromasin will get you back in the game without having to take the plunge for HRT.
Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
- 11-10-2013, 11:53 AM
Treatments of Gyno using DHT-Derivatives
Originally Posted by Patrick Arnold
11-10-2013, 11:53 AM
What kind of Gains can I expect on PH/DS/AAS Cycle?
This is a wonderful question to consider, that applies to many other areas of life, not just bodybuilding, so let's take a look at it;
What can I expect to gain? Or, what is a realistic expectation?
Nothing, truth be told. Do not expect anything! What do I mean by this? Basically put, any and all of your expectations are going to be wrong. All expectations are wrong, because all expectations are unnatural. If you expect a specific result, there is EVERY CHANCE that you will be frustrated. Expectation, in it's nature, leads to frustration... in it's very nature.
I'm just uncovering the fallacy... how many times have you expected something to happen, and something completely different happened alltogether... then u're left frustrated. The frustration is because of expectation. The outcome of expectation is frustration, so frustration is reactive of expectation...
Just the way things are. If we drop expectation tho, then everything that happens is unexpected, adds to the mystery And then 5lbs, or 10lbs, or 15lbs, everything is equally appreciated cuz you get what you get, there's no expectation so there's no frustration, then whatsoever happens is just dandy. Then it's just a pure experience.
we don't have to do anything with frustration, we simply need to understand what expectation is properly... so let's take a look at that;
What is expectation?
Your expectation is always for a specific result. If your expectation gets fulfilled, then you will be happy. But if it does not, then you will feel cheated somewhere and will be frustrated with life because it's not going according to your expectations. And expectations are rarely fulfilled... Let's take a look at why, with a quick example;
Example; Let's assume that you have heard, from all over the world, that hazlenuts are the best nuts in the world. You've never tried a hazlenut before, but since everyone seems to be making the same statement, you wanna see if there is any truth to it. So, you decide you're going to grow your own hazelnut tree. So you spend 2 thousand dollars, and 2 years of labor growing and nurturing this tree. Your only desire is to try one hazelnut, pure and natural, to see what everyone is talking about... So when the harvest time finally comes around, you pick the first nut you come to, and you expect it to have nuts... you're very excited, you go to your kitchen, get a nutcracker, and break the nut open... and lo and behold;
IT'S EMPTY. BECAUSE YOU WERE EXPECTING A NUT, YOU ARE GOING TO BE PISSED OFF AND FRUSTRATED, AND MAY CURSE THE WHOLE TREE OUT OF THAT FRUSTRATION.
The thing is, your expectation was NOT unrealistic... it simply wasn't according to the way life functions. All expectations are for a specific result, for a desired effect... for one potential possibility of fruit from the tree of nature. But the tree itself does not live according to your expectations, the tree provides both... good nuts, and the occasional empty bad nut; this is just the way things are. Now, if you were expecting a good nut, and you get an empty dud, you will be pissed off, curse the tree, and curse the whole world for lying to you. You may burn the tree and tell all your friends off... but, if you didn't have any expectations, and you opened a nut, saw it was empty, saw the facticity of it, you wouldn't be frustrated because you had no expectations in the first place, you just wanted to see what it was... so you move on to the next nut on the tree, and lo and behold;
EUREKA! The holy grail of hazelnuts! The tree is capable of providing both, but the tree does so unrelated to your expectations. So to expect any specific desired result, is simply setting yourself up for a possible frustration. Either expect ALL possible results, or drop expectation all together.
Do YOU think it's reasonable to expect 15 lbs? what happens when you hit 14.7 lbs, or 12.3 lbs? or if you have to go on some trip halfway through and never get a chance to finish the 6 weeks? or a thousand and one other things that can happen in life in a moment's notice?
So then how am I supposed to lift bro?
To answer this question, a 15 lb gain would depend on a ton of factors from food intake, to training and rest, to personal physiology (none of which are guaranteed to provide you that 15 lbs). Some guys take tbol for 6 weeks and gain 20 lbs, other guys can't seem to gain 5. So, does that put the supplement in question? or the person? I've tried tbol, so I can tell you the supplement is certainly not in question... it does SOMETHING. The rest just boils down to what you do with the supplement. So again, am I going to tell you that it's a realistic and guaranteed expectation to have for 15lbs? No, no one in their right mind would tell you that. It's a possibility, sure. From possibility, to actuality, the process would depend on you and your circumstances, and what you do with it all.
11-10-2013, 11:54 AM
WHY CAN'T I KEEP MY GAINS ON PH/DS/AAS CYCLE?
Alright, I've seen this question posed a thousand times, and it seems that a lot of people have a problem understanding what is really going on, so I figured I'd make this thread and explain it clearly.
Your body has a certain natural balance as to how much "muscle" is necessary to go about your functions in life... to complete the tasks and challenges posed to it within how your particular life is structures. So, guys that work on computers, or guys that work more with their minds (mental stuff, chemists... physicists, priests, etc) generally spend less time on body development, because their lifestyle does not necessitate the need for extra muscle.
Guys that have more physically-intensive jobs (construction workers, boxers, fighters, etc) obviously have a higher physical demand, so their body supports the physical need for extra muscle (assuming they also eat enough to support it) on the daily basis... you can't be a good fighter and be physically frail or weak, or a good construction worker under those same conditions.
So what is responsible for keeping "muscle" on the body? Your physical demands from your own physical life. That's why we use resistance training (weight training) to artificially create this extra physical demand, so our body grows and adjusts accordingly. If the big guys all of a sudden stop lifting and going to the gym, their body will naturally adjust, and drop the "unneeded muscle", it will go back to it's natural balance for whatever is necessary and required to fulfill the demands of their daily life. If you stop lifting the same weights, the muscle needed to support that physical demand is going to shrink... use it or lose it.
So why can I not keep all the muscle I gained while on a PH/DS/AAS cycle? Because while on cycle, your capacity for physical growth is amplified (increased) above natural limits, it's supraphysiological... so to expect the same capacity while lifting naturally is expecting the impossible; it's simply unrealistic.
So why does my muscle shrink after cycle? Naturally, after any cycle, your are going to lose a certain percentage of your gains in the form of glycogen storage and water weight that was a provided benefit of the anabolic... as far as what muscle you gained, if you continue to eat enough to support it, rest properly (and enough) for your bodily needs so you don't catabolize your muscle from too much "overwork", and continue to exercise enough to consciously and continuously build physical resistance from demands of life, your body should (assuming you are fully healthy and no other adverse health problems) continue to maintain and grow it's muscular output... to a certain degree. There are limits such as old age where we lose our optimal hormonal output, and things of that nature. So there ARE physical limits to physical growth, but for the most part we can still grow and maintain within those limits.
All of this said, any muscle that is "unnatural" for your body, that is built with the use of AAS/PH/DS, will require further use of those drugs, diet, and exercise to maintain. But this is an UNNATURAL state that you are creating yourself. Look at Ronnie Coleman, his whole life is centered around picking up heavy things and setting them down, eating a ****load, and shooting up a bunch of drugs (just a factual statement, I am not against that lifestyle, I'm just pointing out the very nature of it). As soon as he stops lifting, or eating enough to support his growth, or injecting the drugs that support this supraphysiological growth rate, he will deflate back to his own natural balance. He CANNOT keep that muscle on him indefinitely, when he gets older his body is going to be less capable of the same growth rate no matter how many drugs he takes. How many 80 yr old men have we seen that are THAT big? NONE.
Case in point, I would suggest using these supplements to enhance your NATURAL frame, and not get too attached to the constant physical labor part of it, unless you personally like that lifestyle, in which case by all means. Just understand that past a certain limit, you will NEED more drugs to support a frame that's unnatural to life's demands. And then you're dependent on the drugs in a way to keep the supraphysiological frame/strength/growth/muscle. So do so out of full understanding so you know what that lifestyle entails. There are infinite dimensions of life, and bodybuilding or taking care of the physical body is just one of them. It's significant, sure, but I don't think it should be the full focus of one's life. It's just fine to look pretty, but if you spend your whole life just looking super pretty and get bigger than a brick ****house, then you will miss the growth in other dimensions of life... it would be stuck just to the physical, and that's kind of too much labor-intensive for my liking, but you guys make your own decisions based on your own understanding. I personally do like being sexy, but I don't need to get too, TOO big :steroidsbad: I need that extra energy to play with the ladies.
That should about sum it up, use your own judgement.
11-10-2013, 11:58 AM
For those bros suffering from porn-induced problems, please don't ruin your own sexual health, this video should help;
And this video should help on how to properly approach a woman of your dreams;
If anyone else has any nuggets of wisdom to contribute, feel free to share
11-10-2013, 12:00 PM
Speaking of, here's a few nuggets of wisdom from all over the place that I could find. None of these are mine, but wisdom is wisdom nonetheless;
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There are two main parts to spreading good vibes: You and the Universe.
1. Remain in the present moment. Future and past should only come up when absolutely necessary.
2. Live life passionately. If you are in a dead-end job or just unhappy, search out your life's passion.
3. Be grateful for everything. Every heart beat is a gift. Realize how lucky we are to be alive.
4. An energy level higher than that of those around you is contagious.
5. Give your energy willingly to everyone. It is drawn from a limitless source.
6. If your energy does drop, everything will be alright. Those people who you gave energy to will return the favor.
7. Your emotional state is independent of external factors. We learned at an early age to look at the world to show us how to feel. I am reminded of a child who scrapes his knee and looks around to see if anyone will comfort him if he were to start crying, if no one is around he will get up and keep playing.
8. Truthfully speak your mind. No matter what emotional response you have at first. Over time your truthful thoughts will erode from societal input. Your thoughts will become more positive and beneficial.
9. Be comfortable touching others. Touch others more. Be aware of how others enjoy your touch.
10. Be happy with yourself as you are now. There is no other time other than this eternal Now to be happy.
11. Whatsoever you do, put your total energy into it. Perfection is impossible; only whole totality is essential.
12. Be empathetic, then rise. Sometimes people want you to feel their pain. Sacrifice your good vibes for them, then pull them up with you back to your previous state.
13. A positive mind is very powerful. There are times for negativity, but those times are rare.
14. Never give up on or condemn another person. They may not be aware they are hurting you. Forgive so you may be forgiven.
15. Failure is another step towards success. Don?t let failures slow you down. If they do, then this is what I do: I envision myself in old age looking back and laughing at how many failures led to my great successes.
16. Stop comparing yourself to others. We are each on our own path.
17. Understand other opinions. Rather than sticking to your point of view, people will enjoy your vibe much more if you don?t argue your opinion to be 'Right' and not 'Wrong'. It is win-win.
18. Have faith that your good vibes are flowing into those around you and lifting them.
19. Meditate or use another centering ritual. Rituals have been very vital to humanity.
20. Drink water frequently. Divide your body weight in two, that is the number of fluid ounces of water you need daily.
21. Keep your body fit and healthy by excercising and eating right.
1. No one wants disrespect.
2. We all are pursuing our own version of happiness.
3. Remember, everyone is on their own path with their own goals.
4. Good vibes resonate and amplify with other good vibes exponentially.
5. The world will be a better place when we leave it than when we found it.
6. We all want to be rich and powerful, but few can rise up. Be happy regardless of your status.
7. Life is abundant. Money, love, and joy can all be yours in excess.
8. Work hard to improve the world around you. It will return the favor.
9. The universe is naturally a happy, good place.
10. Do not fear death. Life is inescapably eternal
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1. Life isn’t fair, but it’s still good.
2. When in doubt, just take the next small step.
3. Life is too short not to enjoy it.
4. Your job won’t take care of you when you are sick. Your friends and family will.
5. Don’t buy stuff you don’t need.
6. You don’t have to win every argument. Stay true to yourself.
7. Cry with someone. It’s more healing than crying alone.
8. Life isn’t tied with a bow, but it’s still a gift.
9. Save for things that matter.
10. When it comes to chocolate, resistance is futile.
11. Make peace with your past so it won’t screw up the present.
12. It’s OK to let your children see you cry.
13. Don’t compare your life to others. You have no idea what their journey is all about.
14. If a relationship has to be a secret, you shouldn’t be in it.
15. No matter how you feel, get up, dress up and show up.
16. Take a deep breath. It calms the mind.
17. Get rid of anything that isn’t useful. Clutter weighs you down in many ways.
18. Whatever doesn’t kill you really does make you stronger.
19. It’s never too late to be happy. But it’s all up to you and no one else.
20. When it comes to going after what you love in life, don’t take no for an answer.
21. Burn the candles, use the nice sheets, wear the fancy lingerie. Don’t save it for a special occasion. Today is special.
22. Overprepare, then go with the flow.
23. Be eccentric now. Don’t wait for old age to wear purple.
24. The most important sex organ is the brain.
25. No one is in charge of your happiness but you.
26. Frame every so-called disaster with these words, ‘In five years, will this matter?’
27. Always choose Life.
28. Forgive but don’t forget.
29. What other people think of you is none of your business.
30. Time heals almost everything. Give Time time.
31. However good or bad a situation is, it will change.
32. Don’t take yourself so seriously. No one else does.
33. Believe in miracles.
35. Don’t audit life. Show up and make the most of it now.
36. Growing old beats the alternative — dying young.
37. Your children get only one childhood.
38. All that truly matters in the end is that you loved.
39. Get outside every day. Miracles are waiting everywhere.
40. If we all threw our problems in a pile and saw everyone else’s, we’d
grab ours back.
41. Envy is a waste of time. Accept what you already have, not what you think you need.
42. The best is yet to come…
Just the way it is
The world is one big bowl of soup
And if peas and carrots
don’t like each other
That’s too bad.
Because they’re sure going
to see a lot of each other
And nobody is leaving until
We are all nice and tender
That’s just the way it is
"A great human revolution in just a single individual will help achieve a change in the destiny of a nation and, further, will enable a change in the destiny of all humankind."
11-10-2013, 12:06 PM
11-10-2013, 12:10 PM
by Mike Arnold
Out of all the side effects a steroid user could potentially experience, gynecomastia (aka bitch tits) is one of the worst…and it certainly tops the list when it comes to cosmetic side effects. Being heavily associated with womanhood, the very nature of this side effect is an affront to our masculinity. Not only is it embarrassing, but in some cases it can destroy the entire appearance of one’s physique. We have all seen pictures of the more extreme cases, where the BB’r literally looks like he has grown a small pair of tits on an otherwise normal body. The severity of this condition can range from only slight swelling, which is often imperceptible from a visual standpoint, to the more extreme cases, as mentioned above Fortunately, gynecomastia does not develop over night and its progression is easily halted and reversed if the proper steps are taken in a timely fashion. There really isn’t any good excuse for a steroid user to experience permanent, visible breast tissue growth. Those that do either don’t care or rather (and much more likely), they weren’t prepared and/or educated to deal with this side effect ahead of time. While there are numerous potential causes of this condition, the BB’r generally only has to worry about a few of them and the available treatment options are simple in their application. Through minimal self-education and a small financial investment we have all the tools we need to keep this side effect at bay.
Why are my nipples sore?
The most important factor in the prevention of gyno is knowing how it occurs in the first place. Since this article is targeted mainly towards the steroid-using BB’r, we will only address the causes which are directly attributable to PED usage. There are 4 types of steroids which can cause gynecomastia, the most prominent of which are the aromatizable steroids. Aromatizable steroids are those AAS which are capable of converting to estrogen. This includes many steroids, such as testosterone, methyltestosterone, methandrostanolone (Dianabol), and to a lesser degree, nandrolone (Deca/NPP), and boldenone (EQ). This conversion process is initiated when aromatizable AAS interact with aromatase, which is an enzyme necessary for the biosynthesis of estrogen. See below for a depiction of this interaction:
When low dosages of these steroids are administered, the degree of conversion is not sufficient to cause this side effect. However, this threshold is regularly crossed by BB’rs who utilize dosages well in excess of those required to avoid estrogenic side effects. The problem with being able to pin-point the dose at which this side effect occurs is that not all individuals are affected equally by the same dose. Some can get away with using fairly large dosages of highly aromatizing drugs, such as testosterone, while others seem to develop problems even with minimal use. I know a powerlifter who was able to use a full gram of pharmaceutical-grade testosterone per week without experiencing any gyno symptoms, while other people have encountered early signs of gynecomastia at only 250 mg weekly. For this reason, assumptions should not be made beforehand regarding personal tolerance. When it comes to learning your limit, real-world experience must be your teacher. However, if I had to guess, I would say that most individuals will begin to experience the early stages of gyno by the time they reach 400-500 mg per week when using testosterone, assuming preventative action is not taken.
The 2nd type of steroid which can potentially cause gyno are those which appear to exhibit inherent estrogenic activity, despite lacking the ability to aromatize. One example would be oxymetholone (Anadrol). This steroid is not capable of converting to estrogen to any degree, yet it causes gyno in a moderate percentage of users. The most plausible explanation for this side effect is that the Anadrol molecule itself demonstrates estrogenic activity, likely by attaching directly to the estrogen receptor. While we cannot yet conclusively state this to be fact, it seems more probable than the other theories which have been put forward over the years.
The 3rd type of AAS associated with the development of gynecomastia are the progestin-based steroids, which promote their effects through direct stimulation of the progesterone receptor. Two examples which fit this description would be trenbolone and nandrolone. However, these drugs differ from the previously mentioned AAS in that they rarely cause gyno on their own. Typically, they require the presence of estrogen (usually at above normal levels) in order to have an impact on the growth of breast tissue. In essence, their progestagenic effects tend to exacerbate the effect of estrogen, thereby acting more as a contributor rather than the primary offender.
The last category of AAS with a history of exhibiting this side effect are those which result in estrogen-rebound. Anticipating the effects of these drugs can be difficult, as they are much less predictable in their behavior. Not only does personal response vary tremendously between individuals, but there is often a lack of consistency even among the same individual. For example, a particular steroid may be employed multiple times without incident, only to cause troubling gyno symptoms under nearly identical circumstances at a later date.
We’ve looked at particular types of AAS and how they work to cause gyno, but there are other causes which should not be overlooked, one of which is an out of balance androgen to estrogen ratio. DHT itself, as well as many DHT derivatives, possess natural anti-estrogenic activity. Therefore, even in the face of stable estrogen levels, a reduction in these hormones may lead to the appearance of estrogenic side effects. In turn, an increase in DHT or its related metabolites will enable an individual to more effectively deal with increased levels of estrogen. This is why a steroid user is much more likely to encounter estrogenic side effects using testosterone alone, compared to a combination of testosterone and drostanolone (Masteron), which was developed specifically for the management of female breast cancer (i.e. Advancement of breast cancer is heavily dependent on the availability of estrogen).
The last cause of gyno in the steroid user is prolactinemia, which is an elevation of prolactin levels outside of the normally recognized limits. The most common cause of prolactinemia in the general population is prolactinoma (tumor of the pituitary gland), although this condition can be caused by administering prolactin elevating steroids, such as trenbolone and nandrolone. However, just like progesterone, prolactin rarely causes gyno by itself. This is not because prolactin is not able to accomplish this. Rather, AAS generally aren’t able to elicit elevations in prolactin adequate for causation. Most of the time, prolactin acts to exacerbate the effects of estrogen (similar to progesterone), making it a contributing factor and not the primary cause in the large majority of cases. Still, there have been instances in which these steroids were able to cause gyno and/or lactation independent of aromatizable AAS. I want to emphasize the fact that lactation rarely occurs in steroid users, but when it does, it is almost always attributable to excessive dosing with the offending steroids, in combination with poor personal response.
Once you’ve indentified the root of the problem, deciding on the best course of action is relatively simple. With that said, let’s get right to the nuts-n-bolts of how to get rid of gyno. When excess estrogen levels are the culprit (aromatizable AAS), there are multiple treatment methods available to us. Ideally, you want to stop the problem before it even begins. Therefore, when planning your cycle, if you know you will be using a dose of aromatizable drugs likely to raise estrogen into a problematic range, the concomitant administration of an A.I. (anti-aromatase) from the outset of your cycle is the best bet. By making an A.I. an integral component of your program right from the start, you will never find yourself in an emergency situation.
While A.I’s can be used in either the prevention or reversal of gyno symptoms, they are best employed as a preventative measure…and with good reason. You see, the job of an A.I. is to prevent testosterone from aromatizing into estrogen, which it does very well, but the problem is that it does absolutely nothing to prevent currently circulating estrogen from continuing to cause problems. As long as A.I’s are utilized as a preventative measure and not for the treatment of an emergency situation, they are preferable to other gyno remedies, but that is not all. The primary mechanism by which A.I’s inhibit gyno formation (management of systematic estrogen) also provides numerous other benefits not found elsewhere, such as: reduced water retention, lowered blood pressure, decreased fat storage, and others. Lastly, A.I.’ do not reduce IGF-1 levels, as will tamoxifen (Nolvadex).
Should you find yourself in a situation where gyno symptoms manifest unexpectedly, you should turn to tamoxifen (Nolvadex) for assistance. Why? The body is programmed to convert a percentage of our naturally produced testosterone into estrogen. This is a necessary and healthy process, as estrogen is required for a variety of male physiological functions. However, as the dose of androgens continues to rise, the body continues to convert roughly the same amount of androgens into estrogen. This becomes a problem once we begin administering supraphysiological quantities of these drugs. The much greater amounts of estrogen now floating through the bloodstream are free to attach to any estrogen receptor sites they come in contact with, including those in breast tissue. The end result is gyno formation…also known as “growing boobs”. This is great in teenage girls, but not in grown men.
The only way to put an immediate stop to this is by deactivating estrogen in breast tissue. Tamoxifen does just that. Due to its greater binding affinity, Tamoxifen is able to dislocate estrogen from the receptor site and take its place, leaving the estrogen with nowhere to attach. The main downside of Tamoxifen relative to the A.I.’s, aside from its IGF-1 lowering effect, is that it is powerless to reduce systematic estrogen levels. Because whole-body estrogen levels remain elevated, the user is subject to side effects such as water retention, increased fat storage, increased blood pressure, etc.
The 3rd way to treat estrogen-induced gyno is through the use of anti-estrogenic steroids, such as Masteron or Proviron. Of this we can be certain, as Masteron has been proven effective, in a clinical setting, at modulating estrogen levels in breast tissue. In fact, Masteron was originally designed for use in women afflicted with breast cancer. Like A.I.’s, Masteron and gang work to keep estrogen levels low by preventing aromatization. As mentioned above, this is a decisive advantage compared to a drug like Tamoxifen, which is completely ineffective at managing whole-body estrogen. This also means it is best used as a preventative measure and not in emergency situations. As a whole, anti-estrogenic steroids are not as potent as the A.I’s. Therefore, these steroids should be utilized right from the start of a cycle, at a dosage commensurate to the amount of aromatizable drugs being used. In my opinion, Masteron is usually the best steroid for this purpose, as it not only provides an anti-estrogenic punch similar to Proviron, but it also increase the muscle-building value of a cycle, unlike Proviron, which has virtually no muscle building effect. Lastly, Masteron provides the additional benefit of enhanced sex drive.
We’ve spoken a lot on estrogen-induced gyno, but not all gyno is estrogen dependent. Prolactin has the ability to cause gyno if levels get high enough, as does progesterone. While AAS do not directly increase progesterone levels, some steroids themselves are progestins (ex. trenbolone & nandrolone), exhibiting progestagenic effects on the body. Generally, this progestagenic effect is not strong enough to cause gyno by itself, but it can certainly exacerbate the effects of estrogen, making the problem worse. In the same way, AAS are generally not able to increase prolactin high enough in order to cause gyno by itself, yet it can certainly contribute to the problem. In extreme cases, individuals using large doses of Trenbolone have been known to lactate. Although this is rare and typically only occurs in heavy users with an unfavorable response, it does occasionally happen.
The most effective treatment for normalizing prolactin levels are the anti-prolactin drugs, such as cabergoline, pramipexole, or bromocriptine. Bromocriptine is a 1st generation anti-prolactin drug. It is not as potent as the other two and since it is less specific in its actions, it comes with an increased risk of side effects. There is no longer any good reason to choose bromocriptine when seeking relief from elevated prolactin. While cabergoline and pramipexole will both get the job done, in terms of compatibility and ease of use, caber is usually preferred due to its reduced side effect profile and longer active life. If there is one downside, it would be its greater cost. Pramipexole must be dosed daily, while cabergoline is usually only administered once every 2-3 days, depending on need. As for the progestagenic effects of AAS, a stated above, gyno is rarely ever a concern as long as estrogen levels are properly managed. Therefore, no specific treatment is indicated. Rather, you indirectly treat the problem by maintaining a normal estrogen level.
That about sums it up, guys. If there is one take home message here, it is that prevention is preferable to correction. Stop gyno before it starts by keeping your estrogen level stable and it is very unlikely that you will ever have gyno issues. For those who are very sensitive to the effects of prolactin, yet like to use high doses of trenbolone or nandrolone, you may require the additional use of an anti-prolactin drug. However, most of us will not need these in order to avoid gyno.
Obviously, personal experience will play a key role in showing us what we can and cannot do as we attempt to stay gyno-free, so as you go about experimenting with different steroids & dosages, make sure you have the appropriate ancillaries on hand just in case they are needed. It is always wise to have a back-up supply of Tamoxifen lying around, simply because it’s almost universally effective for stopping gyno, regardless of the cause.
11-10-2013, 12:15 PM
And here's a link on the natural healing capacity of the human body;
And a video to varify that the info in that link is indeed true and accurate;
11-10-2013, 12:19 PM
11-10-2013, 12:46 PM
11-10-2013, 12:48 PM
Regarding Cortisol Blockers and Cortisol Control
In most cases, during PCT 1000mg Vitamin C should be plenty to manage cortisol, I feel like cortisol blockers are overused on a lot of the supplement boards, so to clear that up;
http://www.leangains.com/Originally Posted by LeanGains guy
11-10-2013, 12:59 PM
Also, good links to research compounds;
11-10-2013, 01:20 PM
11-13-2013, 01:12 AM
good lawd batman, that's a lot of copy and paste. b i t c h titties aren't that complicated. letro and ralox, or caber and you're g2g
why the **** am i the first one to comment and i'm post 15. check ya' self bro.
AM sucks ass. find me on ASF or IMF.
11-14-2013, 10:24 PM
just sharing info, use it as you see fit, or don't.... no disrespect brother, some people already know this stuff, others don't. I appreciate the input
here's another tid-bit of useful info;
11-16-2013, 05:11 PM
11-17-2013, 10:44 AM
11-18-2013, 02:29 PM
11-18-2013, 02:40 PM
11-20-2013, 03:51 PM
11-20-2013, 05:16 PM
11-20-2013, 08:45 PM
11-20-2013, 10:00 PM
11-21-2013, 09:17 AM
11-21-2013, 09:19 AM
11-21-2013, 09:57 AM
11-21-2013, 10:45 AM
11-21-2013, 10:48 AM
You can't treat gyno with drugs. Once the lump is there surgery is the only option.
Online community manager/lead rep of Chaos and Pain,LLC and Fundamental Nutrition.Check us out!chaosandpain.com fnsupps.com Follow me on instagram:@pyrobatt
11-21-2013, 10:52 AM
Sometimes tho you are correct, I've known a very small percentage where surgery was the only option because it was just deep-rooted tissue, but the only case I'm directly aware of where that happened was a guy who had pubertal gyno, which was compounded with the effects from further anabolic use. So, there's always extreme cases, but I would recommend exhausting all possible non-surgical options before considering surgery as the last resort
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