What makes one methyl more liver toxic thrn another?
- 07-29-2012, 01:31 PM
- 07-29-2012, 01:51 PM
I understood it like this...(Not my words, merely found the convo for this and copy pasted it, too lazy to re-write it haha)
I heard something about methylated steriods messing up the SAMe enzyme cycle-SAMe S-adenoylmethionone undergoes a cycle in methylating things that need to undergo phase II detox in the liver, which steroids DO need to undergo. Usually SAMe donates a methyl group and becomes homocysteine (which IS very hepatoxic), but gets re-methylated by a methyl donator such as vitamin b12 or b3, to turn into SAMe again (sound familiar? like the atp cycle we know to well from creatine-body likes to recycle crap) Since the roid is already methylated SAMe cant do its job (of methylation, and a build up of SAMe occurs, and that can cause a build up of other liver enzymes, alot of which cant do their job-which is either oxidize, reduce, conjugate a molecule, sulfinate a molecule, all in the effort to make things more water soluble-so you can piss em out-they other way for garbage to go out is if its fat soluble (it goes through a pathway with bile), anyways, when garbage (namely free radicals, oxygena and nitrogen species, that the livers pathways are to clogged up to clear out) build up they can cause cancer or other hepa-diseases. Something like this happens. when the liver get overloaded in one pathway of garbage clearing, it trys another, but enzymes build up to a tipping point where they start to inhibit other processes, and your screwed when this starts to happen.>SNS-Glycophase<Serious Nutrition Solutions Rep
07-29-2012, 01:55 PM
Doesn't answer exact question just opens up to original question and stating injectable b12 would be useful on cycle?
07-29-2012, 01:58 PM
07-29-2012, 04:36 PM
androgens already have numerous methyls attached.
I believe tesotsterone has 3-4, and dhea has even more.
what is important is first the starting structure, then 2nd the type of added alkylation (methylation, ethlylation ect) and the position a, or b, & (2nd, 7th, 17th, etc)
the structure make up of a compound will be what determines how resistant it is to being broken down by the liver.
07-29-2012, 05:00 PM
07-29-2012, 05:00 PM
So basically just because it's methylated doesn't mean it's awful and this is why hdrols a beginner compound bcuz it's easier to break down?
07-29-2012, 05:08 PM
no, all of those compounds are 17 alpha alkylated (17a methyl) what makes them more hepatotoxic than the other is it's chemical structure.
all of those androgens are modified versions of natural androgens found in the body.
hdrol is 4-chloro-methyl-1,4 androstenediol, this is a derivative of testosterone (well, 4-androstenediol a metabolite of testosterone) which has a additional ene group added at the 1 position. then it has the 17a methyl attached.
when you add a form of additional alkylation to a androgen, it will effect it's hepatotoxicity of the compound. the structure of the compound is going to be a determinant in how this effects hepatotoxicity.
07-29-2012, 05:10 PM
07-29-2012, 05:26 PM
So superdrol is More toxic because it has two methyls so epi an hdrol would be virtually the same toxicity
07-29-2012, 08:31 PM
07-29-2012, 11:25 PM
you take 30-60 mg of epistane to be effective
you take 50-100mg of hdrol to be effective.
and 10-30mg of superdrol.
the more potent a compound is d/t the structural modifications, the more hepatotoxic it will be to your body.
no one knows by looking at a compounds structure how dangerous it's going to be.
but you can guess based off of info from other compounds with similar modifications.
epistane is a modified version of dht.
hdrol is a modified version of testosterone
why is one compound more dangerous than another? because of it's structure. end of story.
07-30-2012, 12:32 AM
07-30-2012, 02:31 AM
07-30-2012, 03:07 AM
07-30-2012, 04:30 AM
07-30-2012, 05:24 AM
07-30-2012, 05:33 AM
07-30-2012, 05:26 PM
What can be said for a reasonable amount of certainty is that generally the more difficult a steroid is to metabolize, the more hepatotoxic it will be. (assuming we are talking about administration methods exposed heavily to the liver (i.e. oral))
Take Superdrol and methyltrienolone for example. Superdrol, often associated with liver toxicity(and more than a few reported cases of hepatic disruption), currently has 1 and only 1 detected metabolite in vivo(human). Methyltrienolone is similarly resistant to metabolism.
Something like methyltestosterone however, is not as difficult to metabolize (having several reported metabolites) and therefore is not very hepatotoxic.
07-30-2012, 08:52 PM
went and looked, huh, what was i thinking of hmm............ too many androgens, too little space in my head.
07-31-2012, 03:37 AM
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