Erase post cycle and estrogen rebound

darsh89

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So ive encountered at least 5 threads lately where people have claimed to run a serm pct, followed by using erase for 30-45 days at 2-3 caps a day, and then developed rebound gyno upon stopping the erase. The erase dose was never tapered down to one cap here, but even so, since erase is a suicide ai this shouldnt even matter. Does anyone have any input on this?

Reason i ask is because i am in pct and just started erase during my 3rd week of nolva. plan was to run it 3/3/2/2/2/1 using the whole bottle, but im thinking maybe i should just stick to the usual 3/2/2/1 that most people run as ive never seen anyone claim to get rebound gyno doing that.
 
lboston

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I'll bump this...I'm interested as well as I stopped Clomid for HRT and had to stop and used erase for two or three weeks afterwards.
 
mattrag

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wow, I have NEVER heard this... Are these said threads on Anabolic Minds? (Wanna take a look)
 
darsh89

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wow, I have NEVER heard this... Are these said threads on Anabolic Minds? (Wanna take a look)
i wanna say 1, maybe 2 were in here. another 3 or 4 more were over on phf.

has me really confused. only thing i can think of is the lengthier time of suppressed estrogen had some effect, but still it shouldnt.

im leaning towards doing the shorter 3/2/2/1 protocol since i havent seen any complaints with that one. i just kind of assumed that the longer 3/3/2/2/2/1 protocol would be better since it would allow more time for things to balance
 
mattrag

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i wanna say 1, maybe 2 were in here. another 3 or 4 more were over on phf.

has me really confused. only thing i can think of is the lengthier time of suppressed estrogen had some effect, but still it shouldnt.

im leaning towards doing the shorter 3/2/2/1 protocol since i havent seen any complaints with that one. i just kind of assumed that the longer 3/3/2/2/2/1 protocol would be better since it would allow more time for things to balance
thanks I'll take a look :D
 

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I had the same thing happen to me. I did nolva 40/40/20/10 and started erase on my 3rd week of nolva 2/3/3/2/2/1 stacked with daa (2-3 grams a day). I had a little bit of rebound coming off of it. It didnt make sense
 
pillsRgood

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I'm in for an answer to this....
 
abformulations

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No need to taper off from erase. It shoudnt make u rebound.
 
darsh89

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No need to taper off from erase. It shoudnt make u rebound.

yeah i understand it shouldnt, but it seems something is causing a rebound. and these have been from various different cycles. 3 of the rebounds ive read about were after hdrol cycles which almost never happens
 
jbryand101b

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The erase dose was never tapered down to one cap here, but even so, since erase is a suicide ai this shouldnt even matter.
why shouldn't it?

I run erase at 75mg until i have 3 weeks left, and then run it at 50mg for 2 weeks, then 25mg for the last week.

people get rebound gyno from lack of experience with using the pct compounds that work for them.
 
mattrag

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why shouldn't it?

I run erase at 75mg until i have 3 weeks left, and then run it at 50mg for 2 weeks, then 25mg for the last week.

people get rebound gyno from lack of experience with using the pct compounds that work for them.
I was wondering the same as when on an AI estrogen may not "rebound": but shouldn't the aromataise enzyme be expected to be in abundance? Or at least a bit above normal after being suppressed (I use this term lightly here as it's not really suppressed. ) so tapering would be something smart to do.
And about people getting rebound gyno from lack of exp... I guess it makes sense seeing all the logs were on Hdrol... and probably were first runs.
 
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I was wondering the same as when on an AI estrogen may not "rebound": but shouldn't the aromataise enzyme be expected to be in abundance? Or at least a bit above normal after being suppressed (I use this term lightly here as it's not really suppressed. ) so tapering would be something smart to do.
And about people getting rebound gyno from lack of exp... I guess it makes sense seeing all the logs were on Hdrol... and probably were first runs.
This makes sense. It seems plausible that your body could just have a reaction from going from less estrogen and then back up after the erase stops, even if the estrogen levels aren't that bad.
 
breezy11

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I was wondering the same as when on an AI estrogen may not "rebound": but shouldn't the aromataise enzyme be expected to be in abundance? Or at least a bit above normal after being suppressed (I use this term lightly here as it's not really suppressed. ) so tapering would be something smart to do.
And about people getting rebound gyno from lack of exp... I guess it makes sense seeing all the logs were on Hdrol... and probably were first runs.
It shouldn't be in abundance with the use of a suicidal inhibitor (like in Erase). The aromatase enzyme is permanently deactivated so the body will have to produce more before estrogen can start to rise.
 
darsh89

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so what im getting is that if a pct is run properly, and the erase dose is tapered properly, that the length of time on the erase should not really matter and a rebound should not happen?

also, when tapering the erase dose, would there be any point in going eod for the final week? something like 3/3/2/2/1/1 eod
 
mattrag

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It shouldn't be in abundance with the use of a suicidal inhibitor (like in Erase). The aromatase enzyme is permanently deactivated so the body will have to produce more before estrogen can start to rise.
yes but wouldn't the body in turn produce more aromatase enzyme? If not then one could theoretically just be on an AI forever an never have to cycle off. But then again I guess the AI would just suppress natty T levels or something up stream? Cause their has to be some balance somewhere... or am I completely off again?
 
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so what im getting is that if a pct is run properly, and the erase dose is tapered properly, that the length of time on the erase should not really matter and a rebound should not happen?

also, when tapering the erase dose, would there be any point in going eod for the final week? something like 3/3/2/2/1/1 eod
I would think that would be dependent on how you react to it... I had to dose E pro EOD to taper off.
 
breezy11

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yes but wouldn't the body in turn produce more aromatase enzyme? If not then one could theoretically just be on an AI forever an never have to cycle off. But then again I guess the AI would just suppress natty T levels or something up stream? Cause their has to be some balance somewhere... or am I completely off again?
I honesty don't know too much about it. The way I understood it is once use of a suicidal AI is stopped the body resumes producing aromatase enzyme as it would previously. I believe people on trt could use one on a permanent basis without every having to change their dosage (once correct dose is established). I'm not sure, but I would think the same would apply to anyone with consistently elevated E2 levels. My knowledge is pretty limited on the subject so I could be way off as well.
 
mattrag

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I honesty don't know too much about it. The way I understood it is once use of a suicidal AI is stopped the body resumes producing aromatase enzyme as it would previously. I believe people on trt could use one on a permanent basis without every having to change their dosage (once correct dose is established). I'm not sure, but I would think the same would apply to anyone with consistently elevated E2 levels. My knowledge is pretty limited on the subject so I could be way off as well.
Yea I know Josh (Natty) uses it on his TRT. But I just think all the aromatase produced when the body is "expecting" some AI to come in might push some estrogen rebound. IMO it's best to be safe. And with regards to this thread, I think tapering it is better than just stopping. Either that, or don't use it.
 
breezy11

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Yea I know Josh (Natty) uses it on his TRT. But I just think all the aromatase produced when the body is "expecting" some AI to come in might push some estrogen rebound. IMO it's best to be safe. And with regards to this thread, I think tapering it is better than just stopping. Either that, or don't use it.
I agree. Tapering would be the safest approach regardless of its level of necessity.
 
threeFs

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I still don't understand, I guess. All the PES reps say its not necessary to taper suicide inhibitors
 
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I dont like suicide inhibitors in my PCT without any particular reason.
I wouldn’t use Erase in my PCT at all. I think Erase is steroidical AI aka 7 keto DHEA metabolites ect. I wouldn’t use anything steroidical in my PCT. I think Nolva + Clomid + high doses of vitamin C + L-Dopa + Biotivia BioForge Pro Max Phase II (everything taper down)are enough for me.

I can’t understand why Erase is a must to any PCT.
I can’t understand why DAA is a must as well with so many complains about prolactin raise.
 
threeFs

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So daa isn't good either? Now I'm really confused. Glad I haven't started this cycle yet
 
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DAA doesn’t work for me. Me and many of my gym friends we did bloodwork once in the past and we didn’t see any raise to our testosterone. Only, just a little raise to our prolactin and E2. So, we gave up DAA.
But if it works for you … OK then…
 

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i've read some interesting posts on another forum (not sure if they were backed by actual studies or theoretical research) where nolva+clomid were actually less effective then either nolva or clomid alone. and overall that nolva alone was most effective at bringing the test back (this actually had studies, clomid was second and torem third)
 

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I had the same thing happen to me. I did nolva 40/40/20/10 and started erase on my 3rd week of nolva 2/3/3/2/2/1 stacked with daa (2-3 grams a day). I had a little bit of rebound coming off of it. It didnt make sense
I think more than likely caused it. Daa caused my gyno even on erase
 
SuperPro

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I think more than likely caused it. Daa caused my gyno even on erase
I don't see how DAA could cause a gyno rebound.

Also I can't find the study I saw before where it says 3g a day increased test by up to 30%. Does anyone have that link?
 
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And how do y'all feel about L-dopa and mucuna pruriens to combat prolactin? I ordered some for like $13 and was going to take it with DAA in pct
 
Torobestia

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I imagine the major reason for not suggesting being on Erase for life is adrenal shutdown and probably death from lack of estrogen.

As for the gyno rebound, as others have hinted at it's likely due to other things used in PCT, like DAA.

Now, a good question to look into is how long it takes for AI to be synthesized. The explanation for no need to taper a suicide inhibitor is the following: once you stop extended use of an AI, aromatase is either gone or very low and would build back up in your system slowly; as this happens your estrogen levels would return to normal slowly, too (more AI => more estrogen) - thus explaining how suicide inhibitors kind of have a tapering already built into it.

This is based on the "assumption" (I've never read the literature confirming or denying this) that it would take weeks to synthesize the required AI to return your estrogen to normal. I'm not sure I believe this. As I said I don't know the answer to this question, but it could take a significantly shorter time, since protein synthesis from start (transcription factors binding to promoters) to finish (post-translational modifications to synthesized proteins, packaging into vesicles, and release into the extracellular space) only takes hours. So, tapering may in fact be needed. The answer lies in that question, though, how long it really takes to synthesize AI to return estro to normal levels.
 
Torobestia

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FWIW I would never worry about this being an issue for someone not on cycle.
 

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DAA doesn’t work for me. Me and many of my gym friends we did bloodwork once in the past and we didn’t see any raise to our testosterone. Only, just a little raise to our prolactin and E2. So, we gave up DAA.
But if it works for you … OK then…
Damn, I was literally just about to order some DAA for my Havoc PCT. So I guess it'd be a much better option to just grab something like PCT Assist to go along with Nolva?
 
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Damn, I was literally just about to order some DAA for my Havoc PCT. So I guess it'd be a much better option to just grab something like PCT Assist to go along with Nolva?
yeah or Biotivia Bio Forge Pro Max or DS activate extreme or Need To Build Muscle Bridge or
Molecular Nutrition Test Factor or Recycle or HCGenerate or

Athletix Division 1!
 
TryHard23

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sooooo what do I do with my bulk tub of DAA? lol.
 
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sooooo what do I do with my bulk tub of DAA? lol.
Daa works...For some it might not. If u dont want it ill give u my address, give it to me! lol
 

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Daa works...For some it might not. If u dont want it ill give u my address, give it to me! lol
DAA has been shown to cause a rise in prolactin in some but not everyone. I personally have had a rise in prolactin from a pre-workout with DAA in it. This was during off time and not even close to my pct. It just unfortunately didn't work in my favor.
 
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DAA has been shown to cause a rise in prolactin in some but not everyone. I personally have had a rise in prolactin from a pre-workout with DAA in it. This was during off time and not even close to my pct. It just unfortunately didn't work in my favor.
Daa is treating everyone differently. from prolactin issues to not working at all to hair shedding. Some, actually alot of people love daa especially during pct. I personally like it and never had a issue with it. I never take it without erase though
 
kevinhy

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I can’t understand why Erase is a must to any PCT.
I can’t understand why DAA is a must as well with so many complains about prolactin raise.
I imagine your logic for not using a "steroidal" metabolite during PCT is because you feel it would compromise recovery? If you're familiar with 7-oxo, it is "non hormonal" in the sense that it cant convert to hormones like regular DHEA. Erase, being a metabolite of this, shares this same characteristic.

Erase is good in PCT because:

1. Serms raise estrogen, it will help combat this issue.
2. It mitigates cortisol, maintaining a more positive muscle protein synthesis to muscle protein breakdown ratio.

These two mean better recovery, and less gains lost.

I advocate DAA during PCT because of the positive effect it has on increasing gonadotropin levels (which are extremely suppressed coming off cycle). If someones worried about prolactin just take Mucuna.
 
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I imagine your logic for not using a "steroidal" metabolite during PCT is because you feel it would compromise recovery? If you're familiar with 7-oxo, it is "non hormonal" in the sense that it cant convert to hormones like regular DHEA. Erase, being a metabolite of this, shares this same characteristic.

Erase is good in PCT because:

1. Serms raise estrogen, it will help combat this issue.
2. It mitigates cortisol, maintaining a more positive muscle protein synthesis to muscle protein breakdown ratio.

These two mean better recovery, and less gains lost.

I advocate DAA during PCT because of the positive effect it has on increasing gonadotropin levels (which are extremely suppressed coming off cycle). If someones worried about prolactin just take Mucuna.
well put buddy...and of course adding free test as well to raise test
 
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Daa is treating everyone differently. from prolactin issues to not working at all to hair shedding. Some, actually alot of people love daa especially during pct. I personally like it and never had a issue with it. I never take it without erase though
I love DAA. Works great for me, I actually did a run with it a few months before I started my first PH run (which I'm doing now) where I ran 3g of DAA for about 4 weeks just to see if it would help at all. I actually deadlifted and squatted 315 for the first time during that run so I'm inclined to think it was helpful even if it might just all be in my head.

I'm of course also going to be running it my PCT as the test booster.
 
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I imagine your logic for not using a "steroidal" metabolite during PCT is because you feel it would compromise recovery? If you're familiar with 7-oxo, it is "non hormonal" in the sense that it cant convert to hormones like regular DHEA. Erase, being a metabolite of this, shares this same characteristic.

Erase is good in PCT because:

1. Serms raise estrogen, it will help combat this issue.
2. It mitigates cortisol, maintaining a more positive muscle protein synthesis to muscle protein breakdown ratio.

These two mean better recovery, and less gains lost.

I advocate DAA during PCT because of the positive effect it has on increasing gonadotropin levels (which are extremely suppressed coming off cycle). If someones worried about prolactin just take Mucuna.
Thanks for your explanation but I would appreciate if you could explain me some things a little bit more.
SERM's increase estrogen while reducing estrogen related sides and increases LH, and thus test production and that’s another reason when you come off of a SERM there is a slight risk of estrogen rebound if you don’t taper down SERMs. However, some estrogen in the body is good.
Right?

AI's reduce E2 and increase free test usually by reducing SHGB (and some test booster do that as well)? and this reduce FSH (production) because it restores HPTA before my balls have reached full production? and you don’t want that in your PCT. Right? Moreover, any raise in prolactin (with DAA) during your PCT usually reduce FSH as well. Right?

Reducing FSH and increasing LH you mess up your LH/FSH ratio. That’s the first sign of testicle problems?

Right?

Please correct me if I made a wrong statement. I am here to learn.

But if my statements are correct then:
I still can’t understand why Erase is a must to any PCT.
I still can’t understand why DAA is a must as well with so many complains about prolactin raise.

And that’s a good reason why we shouldn’t use in the whole PCT a test booster and should only use only use a test booster just for 15-20 days maximum and the rest just SERMs for hormonal balance?
Right?
Please correct me if I made a wrong statement. I am here to learn.

Thank you
 
kevinhy

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Thanks for your explanation but I would appreciate if you could explain me some things a little bit more.
SERM's increase estrogen while reducing estrogen related sides and increases LH, and thus test production and that’s another reason when you come off of a SERM there is a slight risk of estrogen rebound if you don’t taper down SERMs. However, some estrogen in the body is good.
Right?

AI's reduce E2 and increase free test usually by reducing SHGB (and some test booster do that as well)? and this reduce FSH (production) because it restores HPTA before my balls have reached full production? and you don’t want that in your PCT. Right? Moreover, any raise in prolactin (with DAA) during your PCT usually reduce FSH as well. Right?

Reducing FSH and increasing LH you mess up your LH/FSH ratio. That’s the first sign of testicle problems?

Right?

Please correct me if I made a wrong statement. I am here to learn.

But if my statements are correct then:
I still can’t understand why Erase is a must to any PCT.
I still can’t understand why DAA is a must as well with so many complains about prolactin raise.

And that’s a good reason why we shouldn’t use in the whole PCT a test booster and should only use only use a test booster just for 15-20 days maximum and the rest just SERMs for hormonal balance?
Right?
Please correct me if I made a wrong statement. I am here to learn.

Thank you
You're correct in that heightened prolactin levels could result in HPTA suppression and lowered gonadotropin levels, however if this were the case with DAA we wouldnt have human data showing significant increases in testosterone above baseline. If all it did was elevate prolactin we would report no change, because of the negative feedback it initiated.

Suicidal AIs lower estradiol and increase testosterone by competing for the aromatase enzyme, lowering the amount of substrate (testosterone) allowed for conversion. Plenty of data exists showing an AIs ability to increase both LH and FSH (1). AIs can also reduce SHBG, but this is often elevated from SERM usage(2).

Given this information, its very easy to see why adding in an AI during PCT is useful, and is why people have such great success throwing in Erase.

1. Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
2. Effects of exemestane and tamoxifen on hormone levels within the Tamoxifen Exemestane Adjuvant Multicentre (TEAM) Trial: results of a German substudy.
 
Drizzie88

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You're correct in that heightened prolactin levels could result in HPTA suppression and lowered gonadotropin levels, however if this were the case with DAA we wouldnt have human data showing significant increases in testosterone above baseline. If all it did was elevate prolactin we would report no change, because of the negative feedback it initiated.

Suicidal AIs lower estradiol and increase testosterone by competing for the aromatase enzyme, lowering the amount of substrate (testosterone) allowed for conversion. Plenty of data exists showing an AIs ability to increase both LH and FSH (1). AIs can also reduce SHBG, but this is often elevated from SERM usage(2).

Given this information, its very easy to see why adding in an AI during PCT is useful, and is why people have such great success throwing in Erase.

1. Pharmacokinetics and Dose Finding of a Potent Aromatase Inhibitor, Aromasin (Exemestane), in Young Males
2. Effects of exemestane and tamoxifen on hormone levels within the Tamoxifen Exemestane Adjuvant Multicentre (TEAM) Trial: results of a German substudy.
I wish the iPad app had rep capabilities...someone rep this guy for me! Good info backed up by footnoted proof. We need more people like you around here!
 
kevinhy

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I wish the iPad app had rep capabilities...someone rep this guy for me! Good info backed up by footnoted proof. We need more people like you around here!
Lol, thanks man!
 

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