Let's start a gyno discussion

RRAdam · 10-04-2004, 01:27 PM

So I'm reading up on some boards, and notice some people getting gyno from tren/deca, whatever.
i always suggest nolva in these cases, however, in some cases, I am nearly flamed. with some vets saying that nolva will do nothing for progesterone/prolactin related gyno. As far as i know, progesterone and prolactin cannot cause gyno alone or together. it seems that estrogen, along with gh and igf are needed. so i stick by my statement that nolva will help with gyno, as it attaches to the ER AND lowers prolactin levels. and still, i am often refuted.
most of the time, these people say vitamin b6 is the best way to prevent/cure gyno with progesteronic compounds. I havent really found a cause in why this works, but it seems that the proof is in the pudding so to speak, though I do sometimes wonder if people have actually tried b6 successfully, or just spread the word by others.

This is really the only study in where I can find anything relating to the use of b6 in preventing progesterone/prolactin gyno.

Modulation of steroid receptor-mediated gene expression by vitamin B6.

Tully DB, Allgood VE, Cidlowski JA.

Department of Physiology, University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill 27599-7545

Gene transcription mediated by steroid hormones has become one of the most extensively characterized model systems for studying the regulation of gene expression in eukaryotic cells. However, specific details of gene regulation by steroid hormones are often complex and may be unique in specific cell types. Diverse regulatory mechanisms leading to either activation or repression of particular genes frequently involve interactions between steroid hormone receptors and other ubiquitous and/or cell-specific transcription factors that act on the complex promoter of the regulated gene. Interplay between steroid receptor-mediated and other signal transduction pathways may also be involved. In addition, recent novel results indicate that moderate variations in the intracellular concentration of pyridoxal 5'-phosphate (PLP), the biologically active form of vitamin B6, can have pronounced modulatory effects on steroid-induced gene expression. Specifically, elevation of intracellular PLP levels leads to decreased transcriptional responses to glucocorticoid, progesterone, androgen, or estrogen hormones. Conversely, cells in a vitamin B6-deficient state exhibit enhanced responsiveness to steroid hormones. One aspect of the mechanism by which these transcriptional modulatory effects of PLP occur has recently been shown to involve interruption of functional interactions between steroid hormone receptors and the nuclear transcription factor NF1. These findings--that the vitamin B6 nutritional status of cells modulates their capacity to respond to steroid hormones--impose an additional level of cell-specific control over steroid hormone regulation of gene expression and will serve as the focal point for this review.

So, while it seems that b6 would make sense that it would decrease responsiveness to a PR in breast tissue, with lets say, deca - would it not also decrease responsiveness to the AR? probably not significantly, but who knows?

So what do you all think about the nolva?

I may be way off here, but I'm just trying to expand my mind and maybe get a good discussion going.

**DR.D** · 10-04-2004, 06:39 PM

It may work, never used it for this reason, but I would not exceed 0.5g/d requardless.

RRAdam · 10-04-2004, 09:43 PM

yea people reccomend 300mg for prevention, and 600-900 for curing.

some swear by it

RRAdam · 10-04-2004, 11:11 PM

all right - who else is feeling frisky?

size · 10-05-2004, 12:49 AM

Interesting but I would not put all my faith into B6.

BryanM · 10-05-2004, 02:15 AM

It worked for me along with nolva

but cabergoline(dostinex) or bromo are much better

RRAdam · 10-05-2004, 10:05 AM

yes, with sides.

So what about the nolva... someone back me up... heh

BryanM · 10-05-2004, 01:56 PM

well I hear this debate all the time and from my understanding without the presense of estro the actuall lump cannot grow!!!

you can have sides though of itchyness hurting and such and if you have a preexisting condition then it can grow but if you block the estro the actual llump wont grow and as soon as the progest levels lower the symptoms disapear.

But why risk it when you can just take both just to make sure

Jstrong20 · 10-05-2004, 06:20 PM

I believe bobo has posted on this before. Don't hold me to it but if I remeber right he also stated that nolvadex will stop prog related gyno.

RRAdam · 10-05-2004, 08:05 PM

yup, ive read that post, but I was just looking to expound on it, along with the b6.

theamazing3000 · 10-05-2004, 09:13 PM

I have a mild case of gyno and have experimented with long term low dose nolva
while it didn't cure it the lump is now almost unnoticable

asap nutrition · 05-05-2005, 06:41 PM

It seems more and more there are more options for treating gynocomastia then just taking estrogen blockers and surgery. Again peeps, educate me further?

asap nutrition · 05-10-2005, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RRAdam

yea people reccomend 300mg for prevention, and 600-900 for curing.

some swear by it

Really? Hmm......

Grifter · 05-10-2005, 12:45 PM

Nolva helped none with my gyno, ive tried many different doses, even at 100mg a day i got nothing. reboundxt made the lumps go away pretty fast. Nate Dawg posted that he used b6/vitex for tren gyno and nolva for gyno from test. the nolva did nothing for his tren gyno.

Nate Dawg · 05-10-2005, 06:38 PM

On my last cycle when I added in the tren I started getting some very small tissue development, so I started nolva at 75mg/day. After 3-4 days that wasnt doing anything so I upped it to 100mg/day. Still nothing after a few days at that dose, no improvement and it was still continuing to worsen. I went and picked up some B-6 and Vitex and started 600mg/day of B-6 with around 3g/day of Vitex and as soon as I started that the lumps dissappeared in a very short amount of time. Just my experience with it. I have had lumps form when I was on high doses of 4ad and nolva completely took care of it, so I know with the tren it was in fact progesterone caused gyno and the nolva didnt do anything for me. Maybe if I would have been taking a low dose the whole cycle that would have prevented it, but for me I know nolva wont stop/clear up progesterone caused gyno.

size · 05-10-2005, 06:54 PM

If you know you are gyno prone, then address the situation from day 1 to avoid any future problems.

Nate Dawg · 05-10-2005, 07:06 PM

Thats the best advice.

bigred869 · 05-11-2005, 11:45 PM

For my first cycle I ran human grade Test Cyp 250mg/wk for 10 weeks and took clomid at 50mg/day for a couple weeks and got no gyno. The second cycle, I ran 500mg of qv test enan and used nolva throughout at 12.5mg/day and got no gyno. Currently, I'm running anadrol50, human grade test cyp 375mg/wk, and deca 300mg/wk and B6 at 200mg/day and am not seeing any gyno effects. It may be becuase I'm just not prone and I might notice gyno sides later on, and the other day I woke up with one of my nipples feeling tender (like that feeling after surfing at the beach all day kinda likea rash) but no lumps underneath, so I'm debating on whether or not to start running Nolva at 12.5mg/day now or save it for PCT in combination with clomid. Any thoughts?

Nate Dawg · 05-12-2005, 12:04 AM

Just keep an eye on it, if it keeps acting up, start up the nolva.

knox · 05-12-2005, 12:10 AM

If you feel as though you need to start the nolva i would definetely up the dose. I would personally kick it off with 80mg then taper it down throughout a week or two. Then hold the dose around 20mg or so until the irritation subsides.

**DR.D** · 05-12-2005, 04:52 AM

I don't get gyno until my TC dose gets over 600mg/wk.

Cardinal · 05-16-2005, 11:09 AM

I am about to start a cycle of tren.

So far I did get a sizeable lump, pain, puffiness and some minor discharge from Testosterone. It came on very fast and nolvadex took care of it immediately. Within a week or three the lump was completely gone.

I am going to try everything I can with the tren. Bromo (already have it), B6, Arimidex, Nolva (low dose), and maybe Vitex also.

kwantam · 05-16-2005, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cardinal

I am going to try everything I can with the tren. Bromo (already have it), B6, Arimidex, Nolva (low dose), and maybe Vitex also.

Are you saying you plan on running all of these the whole time? Seems like all you should need is maintainence doses of vitex and b6, and the Arimidex to take care of aromatizables (you do have test in that cycle, right?). Keep the bromo and nolva on hand, but don't use them unless it's necessary.

(Apologies for being pedantic if this was your plan and I misunderstood same.)

-kwantam

stream187 · 05-17-2005, 03:07 AM

Can anyone give me an idea about Vitex dosing when using it to get rid of gyno? Standard dosing is 600-900mg/day.

TryinToGetBIG · 05-18-2005, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nate Dawg

On my last cycle when I added in the tren I started getting some very small tissue development, so I started nolva at 75mg/day. After 3-4 days that wasnt doing anything so I upped it to 100mg/day. Still nothing after a few days at that dose, no improvement and it was still continuing to worsen. I went and picked up some B-6 and Vitex and started 600mg/day of B-6 with around 3g/day of Vitex and as soon as I started that the lumps dissappeared in a very short amount of time. Just my experience with it. I have had lumps form when I was on high doses of 4ad and nolva completely took care of it, so I know with the tren it was in fact progesterone caused gyno and the nolva didnt do anything for me. Maybe if I would have been taking a low dose the whole cycle that would have prevented it, but for me I know nolva wont stop/clear up progesterone caused gyno.

How long did it take for lumps to disapear?

Haggerty · 10-30-2005, 12:09 PM

So i people using both high and low doses of nolva to get rid of gyno... what do you guys suggest is the best to do??

I was thinking of running 20-30mg's of nolva for 2 months to reduce of get rid of my gyno.. any suggestions?

Sky9 · 10-30-2005, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by size

If you know you are gyno prone, then address the situation from day 1 to avoid any future problems.

Size, I agree with you. Can you help by suggesting some ways to address it while on a 12 week Test E cycle? Is something like 20mg ED of nolva the best way to go, or should an AI be used instead with novla on hand? Just currious about the ways for a gyno prone person so prevent it while on a 10-14 week cycle. Thanks.

size · 10-30-2005, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky9

Can you help by suggesting some ways to address it while on a 12 week Test E cycle? Is something like 20mg ED of nolva the best way to go, or should an AI be used instead with novla on hand?

I would start from day one using nolvadex and use it for the entire cycle. For the last two weeks, you could drop the nolvadex and use an AI like arimidex before moving into post cycle.
Dosages vary but 10-20mg of nolva daily should suffice.

Sky9 · 10-30-2005, 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by size

I would start from day one using nolvadex and use it for the entire cycle. For the last two weeks, you could drop the nolvadex and use an AI like arimidex before moving into post cycle.
Dosages vary but 10-20mg of nolva daily should suffice.

Are there any side effects to worry about with using nolva for an extended period of time like that?

**DR.D** · 10-30-2005, 04:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sky9

Are there any side effects to worry about with using nolva for an extended period of time like that?

You mean besides liver cancer and DNA damage? Don't even get me started! I guess you can probably see I wish somebody would bring Fareston the the RC game because I hate Nolva, right?

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...28&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...93&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...04&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...24&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...80&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...10&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...00&query_hl=12
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/q...54&query_hl=12

I've talked not only about the studies that show clearly how hepatotoxic Nolva is but also from personal observation of how toxic Nolva is till I'm blue in the face! Nobody wants to hear it. On a practical level, I agree with Size in his on-cycle advise, but it is my observation that SERM works much less effectively in PCT when it has been used all cycle too. At least 1 month should be taken off in between Nolva uses.

10-30-2005, 12:09 PM
Haggerty Member Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Cleveland, OH Age: 25 Posts: 100 Friends: (0) Leave Comment Rep Power: 0	So i people using both high and low doses of nolva to get rid of gyno... what do you guys suggest is the best to do?? I was thinking of running 20-30mg's of nolva for 2 months to reduce of get rid of my gyno.. any suggestions?