HPTA Normalization Help

[Niceguy73]

I am a 23 year old male who is suffering from low libido, ED, and all the typical symptoms of low testosterone/high estrogen levels.
I took prohormones, Promagnon 25 (4-chloro-17a-methyl-andro-4-ene-3, 17b-diol), for a peroid of 5 months in 2007.
Post cycle therapy wasnt adequate and I have spent the last 3 years experiencing a hormonal nose dive.
I went to a urologist/ endocrinologist and they finally said I have secondary Hypogonadism. My last test results (June 2010) are as follows. I am currently waiting on more blood work results.

Total T 507 ng/dl ref range(300-1000)
Free T 10.6 pg/ml ref range (10-30)
Estradiol 47 pg/ml ref range (14-55)
HCG <2 iu/l
LH 3.4 iu/l ref range (1.2-8.6)
FSH 3.1 iu/l

These numbers are telling me that my HPTA is kinda limping along and the high estradiol level is keeping my total and free testosterone in the dirt. I am a little over weight and need to lose some body fat which should make my estrogen level go down some.

I was wondering if there is any chance of restoring my HPTA to normal and not having to be treated for low T the rest of my life?
My knowledge of the HPTA tells me that if i lower estrogen perhaps using anastrozole, total and free test should go up. Can I take anastrozole long term to improve my T/E ratio and resolve my symptoms which will increase the quality of my life.

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[MidwestBeast]

If you haven't tried any OTC stuff, yet, I'd look at something like Erase + a natural test booster that specifically raises free testosterone and see if that makes a difference.

Your total test might not be near the top end, but it's not awful by any means. I'd work on getting the estrogen down and free test up. I'd look OTC before trying an AI like that.

 

[jbryand101b]

clomid and a low dosed ai will help.

but how long, not sure. studies have shown patients who use just clomid reach normal or above levels of test, but when they stop, some patients return to pre clomid state.

I'd say maybe to give clomid/ai a try for a few months, then get test done when you finish it. but this really should be studied by a doc who specializes in this kind of stuff.
Like Dr Mike Scally.

 

[soontobbeast]

you took pmag for 5 months straight? what kind of gains did you have? and did you develop any liver symptoms?

 

[gotta get big]

you took pmag for 5 months straight? what kind of gains did you have? and did you develop any liver symptoms?

Ya what he said! Also curious why so long and who let that happen!? Try erase and any natty test booster with daa. Curious if jump starting that with Nolva would help. Subbed. Good luck cuz.

 

[df122092]

Bump for info. Did you run p-mag for 5 months straight? If not what was your cycle like? You said your pct was ineffective; what was it?

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Wow...5 months of pmag...that's nuts!

I'd look to try to increase your total test and total free test and lower your estro.

You could probably achieve this through two different test boosters. Just try to find two that can increase your free test, total test, and lower estro.

Maybe something like HCGenerate and Core Test.

 

[tattoopierced1]

HCG

 

[mattrag]

subbed for answers

 

[MDiocre]

clomid and a low dosed ai will help.

but how long, not sure. studies have shown patients who use just clomid reach normal or above levels of test, but when they stop, some patients return to pre clomid state.

I'd say maybe to give clomid/ai a try for a few months, then get test done when you finish it. but this really should be studied by a doc who specializes in this kind of stuff.
Like Dr Mike Scally.

If "jumpstarting" your gonads via HPTA is what you're hoping to do then clomid would theoretically work through that mechanism (from what I understand). Whether things will go right back to where they were once you stop the clomid is another question.

 

[ax1]

See a doctor, and then most likely an endo. Be honest with him, tell him what happened.

Dont self treat, your going on the wrong path and you may spiral yourself out of control.

 

[Niceguy73]

It was 5 months straight. As for who let that happen it would be me, the gains were awesome. The thing I remember most about the PCT was that it didnt work. It was supposed to be an estrogen blocker and testoserone booster. Ill try to remember the names. After a few months of them not working and progressively feeling worse I stopped taking them and went to my doctor. Liver function was slightly elevated if i remember correctly. Since then I have been bouncing between my doctor a urologist and an endocrinologist and thats been almost 4 years now.

The endocrinologist just recently said that it is secondary hypogonadism. Trt has been mentioned to me but i feel given my blood work above that it would be unwise. I told my doctor that I want to try to restore my HPTA using clomiphene. If not then probably low dose anastrozole to improve T/E ratio and solve my symptoms. They are "looking" into these possibilities.

I wish I could talk to Dr. Mike Scally. I have been reading alot of his stuff in other forums.

I am waiting on more blood work. should get it by middel of next week and Ill post it here. Thanks for the responses. keep em coming. Trying to answer most of your questions.

 

[ax1]

Id try to avoid lifetime TRT if I could as well and go for other options such as clomi or other and only do TRT down the road as a last resort.

Are you vitamin D deficient?

 

[MidwestBeast]

OP, aside from the initial mistake of the long-use of a hormonal product and an unwise PCT, I commend you in the action that you've taken. You are doing things the responsible way, now. I know it sucks, but I'll pray that you find a resolution to this and again, props for doing in the right way, now. I agree that TRT should be a last resort sort of thing; it's a great thing and down the road, I'll definitely do it, but too many people think being on test for life sounds awesome and try to find a way to get on it when they don't truly need it.

Good luck.

 

[Niceguy73]

Thanks Midwestbeast.

If I can get lucky once in life and get my HPTA restarted I will ask for nothing else in life. I would hope that no one else experiences what I have been through.

As for the vitamin D question. I do not believe I am deficient but perhaps ill have it checked in my next blood work in a couple months.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

id try to get clomid run it 25mg for 3 weeks run DAA 3grams a day for 6 weeks and run something like amorasin at 12.5 for a few weeks.

if you cant get that. id get some sustain alpha and TCF-1 (DAA) run them 8 weeks or something. start eating healthy fats in the morning like eggs and fishoils. start hitting heavy squats and deadlifts twice a week.

see a doc to get your levels up.

how did you take pmag that long? do you read anything on the net before taking?

 

[ax1]

Thanks Midwestbeast.

If I can get lucky once in life and get my HPTA restarted I will ask for nothing else in life. I would hope that no one else experiences what I have been through.

As for the vitamin D question. I do not believe I am deficient but perhaps ill have it checked in my next blood work in a couple months.

Vitamin D deficiency can cause low test levels, and the simple solution would be supplementing with Vitamin D. I dont think this is the case here though, but everything of course needs to be investigated.

Have you ever had your test levels checked in the past? So you at least know whats normal for you, if you were normal? To be honest, what you have in your first post, I dunno if Id even consider that shut down, you look normal and within normal range of things. Doesnt seem like anything serious.

 

[Niceguy73]

I did not have my test levels taken prior to the pmag. I wish I did. I should have done alot of things differently but once I was on it I loved the results I was getting but my head as in my ass and lead me to make the mistake of taking it for too long. I didnt do my homework on it like I should have.

I know my test levels still fall in the "normal" range but the difference I feel know compared to before the pmag is tremendous. If I wasnt having the symptoms of low T I am having with these current test levels then I would call it case closed and be happy.

Ill get some vitamin D and start with the heavy lifting again

 

[ax1]

Ill get some vitamin D and start with the heavy lifting again

Thats certainly fine, supplementation is good especially during the winter months, but if your going to get checked dont supplement yet, find out if your deficient or not.

Go hit the gym, dont overtrain and eat well, extremely well. You may pull through this just fine with time.

 

[TheKanezzi]

Subbed. Best of luck to you man

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

your levels arnt even that low. id really get more opinions and have more tests done. really research your doc or get a good idea if they are a pro at what they are doing.

your Free T looks low. try activate xtreme stacked with DAA. both testboosters are al ittle more geared towards differnt test so its a good stack before you hit any SERMS or AI's.

 

[Flabby]

Maybe it isn't a hormonal problem at all, or it's only partly hormonal. Hang around here too long and you'll start attributing everything that happens to you (good or bad) to hormones... Could be depression, a chronic illness, an undiagnosed food allergy, an environmental toxin, or any number of other things... The fact that it happened right after PMAG could be a coincidence, or maybe that was the catalyst for a dormant preexisting condition to come out of hiding.

 

[soontobbeast]

Maybe it isn't a hormonal problem at all, or it's only partly hormonal. Hang around here too long and you'll start attributing everything that happens to you (good or bad) to hormones... Could be depression, a chronic illness, an undiagnosed food allergy, an environmental toxin, or any number of other things... The fact that it happened right after PMAG could be a coincidence, or maybe that was the catalyst for a dormant preexisting condition to come out of hiding.

you're totally right dude. doing a steroid for 5 months with essentially no pct probably has nothing to do with his hormonal issues. it's stupid to even think they are related. it's all a big coincidence and he should have known to watch out for hypogonadism creeping up in his early 20s.

 

[drinkyboy]

Reps for coming out the woodwork with this problem. I feel like it happens more than everyone hears about. Major reps on going about it in the right way also. I wish you the best of luck and please keep us posted on your recovery as time passes. It may just be me, but I feel like your bloodwork could have been sooo much worse than it is.

 

[Flabby]

you're totally right dude. doing a steroid for 5 months with essentially no pct probably has nothing to do with his hormonal issues. it's stupid to even think they are related. it's all a big coincidence and he should have known to watch out for hypogonadism creeping up in his early 20s.

Well, two things to consider:
1. His hormones, while not amazing, are all in range.
2. I experienced similar issues from age 19-20, years before any kind of hormonal supplementation. I never got a proper diagnosis but I think it was actually depression that exacerbated itself via a vicious cycle of worrying what was wrong with me. Eventually I snapped out of it.

The PMAG is too big a factor to ignore, you are right. But the OP should be considering all possibilities (again, especially considering that hormone blood tests are within range). 5 months of PMAG Probably did a number on his liver and lipid profile. Were you drinking on cycle too, OP?

 

[gotta get big]

you're totally right dude. doing a steroid for 5 months with essentially no pct probably has nothing to do with his hormonal issues. it's stupid to even think they are related. it's all a big coincidence and he should have known to watch out for hypogonadism creeping up in his early 20s.

Hahah, coincidence.

Good luck man, respect for taking the steps now to state your mistakes and take the right path to recovery. Subbed and rooting for ya.

 

[GMG760]

This is one of the most responsible "holy crap I may have f-ed myself" threads ever. Props for your maturity op. People have done dumber things than 5months of pmag ( though I imagine your liver might have wanted to b*tchslap you for a while) and eventually recovered serm or not. I wouldn't go hopping onto clomiphine just yet. I would try to get my estrogen levels under control first and foremost. An OTC AI will work for starters, no real reason to use adex or letro if the OTC will drop it down. Perhaps 25mg ATD eod, or erase (never uses it personally but I hear good stuff) would get your natty test to raise a bit and squash all that estrogen. I imagine the crappyood/feelings are from such high estrogen levels. You'll probably lean out a bit too. Dropping weight could help. Kinda a personal question, but did the "boys" return to normal eventually? Or did they have permanent shrinkage? This may be an indicator of where to go from here.

 

[ax1]

This is one of the most responsible "holy crap I may have f-ed myself" threads ever. Props for your maturity op. People have done dumber things than 5months of pmag ( though I imagine your liver might have wanted to b*tchslap you for a while) and eventually recovered serm or not. I wouldn't go hopping onto clomiphine just yet. I would try to get my estrogen levels under control first and foremost. An OTC AI will work for starters, no real reason to use adex or letro if the OTC will drop it down. Perhaps 25mg ATD eod, or erase (never uses it personally but I hear good stuff) would get your natty test to raise a bit and squash all that estrogen. I imagine the crappyood/feelings are from such high estrogen levels. You'll probably lean out a bit too. Dropping weight could help. Kinda a personal question, but did the "boys" return to normal eventually? Or did they have permanent shrinkage? This may be an indicator of where to go from here.

If he was hitting a methyl that long, poster "Flabby" may have a point, his liver should get checked right away.

There are people with much worse test/estrogen results than OP and they feel fine although this shouldn't be out of the equation.

 

[Niceguy73]

When I started the pmag I was in my freshmen year of college. So I did some drinking and heavy at times but that was few and far between. Not like typical college freshmen thought. I dont drink now at all. I am definitly glad I started this thread. You guys have presented me with many new things to consider. Thank you.

As for if they boys returned to normal size. They have definitely increased in size since I stopped taking the pmag. I dont think they went back to normal size though. They seem to flucuate between firm and soft. Im starting to think you guys maybe right and multiple factors maybe at play here. The last couple of years have been extremely stressful between college, starting a new job and my issues stated above. Im sure the is some depression from all this and it causes more stress. I dont recall if I have never had my cortisol levels checked. Im wondering if the constant stress has elevated my cortisol levels making my liver work harder to clear it and making it less efficient at removing the excess estrogen from my system. This would then effect testosterone production. what do you guys think?

The stress could also be effecting my thyroid. It got tested right after the pmag and it was fine. We are having it rechecked in the most recent round of bloodwork. I should have those results by the middle of this week.

I should also mention that I have had an MRI done to check for any tumors on my pituitary glad. The results came back normal. That was two plus years ago. Last summer I began noticing vision changes in my right eye only. I have to focus harder to read things as they appear blurry but I still have a full field of vision. My left eye is better than 20/20 vision and I am left eye dominate. I did research to see how the pituitary tumors effect the optic nerves. They cause giant dark spots in your peripheral vision and cause your field of vision to narrow. I do not have that. Should I get another MRI?

Again I would like to thank you all for your support. It means alot to me.

 

[Flabby]

I'm very happy to help, especially since I went through some similar **** at that age and I really never got proper help or advice from anyone at the time. Just to reiterate: Im not saying that the PMAG didn't do you any harm, or that it definitely isn't the cause of what you're going through now. But definitely look at all factors, including mental health.

In my case I had convinced myself that I got HIV from this one slutty girl I slept with and that my health was declining. combine this with the pressures of coming of age and joining the workforce in a ****ty economy, some **** going on in my family, and poor diet and use of marijuana and shrooms, and all I could do all the time was worry and get sicker.

When I finally got the balls to get an HIV test (amongst other tests) I was sure I would test positive, but I tested negative. The doctors couldn't find anything wrong with me, physically. That's when I started to consider the mental aspect seriously and get my anxiety under control. It also got better once I found a job and a girl I liked.

All in all, ages 19-22 were by far the worst in my life and since then every year has been better than the last (I'm 31 now). I don't think your situation is exactly the same but I mention all this because we are constantly being told that college is the best time of your life when for some of us this is simply not the case. I've talked to a lot of people since then who have similar stories about stresses disrupting their health at that age - I wonder if it is more common than we are led to believe.

Either way, I'm confident that you will right the ship, even if it isn't a quick process.

And always, if you find yourself in a hole, remember the first rule of holes:
Stop digging

 

[MDiocre]

I'm very happy to help, especially since I went through some similar **** at that age and I really never got proper help or advice from anyone at the time. Just to reiterate: Im not saying that the PMAG didn't do you any harm, or that it definitely isn't the cause of what you're going through now. But definitely look at all factors, including mental health.

In my case I had convinced myself that I got HIV from this one slutty girl I slept with and that my health was declining. combine this with the pressures of coming of age and joining the workforce in a ****ty economy, some **** going on in my family, and poor diet and use of marijuana and shrooms, and all I could do all the time was worry and get sicker.

When I finally got the balls to get an HIV test (amongst other tests) I was sure I would test positive, but I tested negative. The doctors couldn't find anything wrong with me, physically. That's when I started to consider the mental aspect seriously and get my anxiety under control. It also got better once I found a job and a girl I liked.

All in all, ages 19-22 were by far the worst in my life and since then every year has been better than the last (I'm 31 now). I don't think your situation is exactly the same but I mention all this because we are constantly being told that college is the best time of your life when for some of us this is simply not the case. I've talked to a lot of people since then who have similar stories about stresses disrupting their health at that age - I wonder if it is more common than we are led to believe.

Either way, I'm confident that you will right the ship, even if it isn't a quick process.

From the certainty of having HIV after sleeping with a slut to every year post college being subsequently better, this is so me.

And always, if you find yourself in a hole, remember the first rule of holes:
Stop digging

Amen brother

 

[MDiocre]

Im sure the is some depression from all this and it causes more stress. I dont recall if I have never had my cortisol levels checked. Im wondering if the constant stress has elevated my cortisol levels making my liver work harder to clear it and making it less efficient at removing the excess estrogen from my system. This would then effect testosterone production. what do you guys think?

I have heard that cortisol suppresses testosterone production, but I thought it was primarily via gonadal suppression, although liver stress certainly may contribute. You are right about liver dysfunction leading to decreased estrogen breakdown. When I have seen this clinically it is usually in end stage liver diease (cirrhosis, hepatocellular carcinoma) when the signs of increased estrogen (red palms, gynecomastia, spider angiomas) are more apparant. Sex steroid binding globulin plays a role in all of this as well.

Last summer I began noticing vision changes in my right eye only. I have to focus harder to read things as they appear blurry but I still have a full field of vision. My left eye is better than 20/20 vision and I am left eye dominate. I did research to see how the pituitary tumors effect the optic nerves. They cause giant dark spots in your peripheral vision and cause your field of vision to narrow. I do not have that. Should I get another MRI?

Pituitary tumors, being central, generally expand into the optic chiasm (where the temporal vision tracts of both eyes cross) before affecting vision another way. This classically causes "bitemporal hemaniopsia", like you described, vision defecits on the outer field of views. So, I agree with your assessment, your vision deficit is not consistant with this; I wouldnt order another MRI based on this info alone. In order for a lesion to affect only one eye, it has to be fairly proximal to the eye before the tracts combine and mix at the optic chiasm. For example, an optic nerve (attaches to the eye) lesion.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, should talk to your doctor for real answers