1ST EVER PH CYCLE WITH EPI-STRONG

[bigboik]

This will be my first cycle that i will have ever done

24 years old, 5'8 height, 86kg

Diet and Training are in check.

Feeback would be greatly appreciated from all



Week Before Cycle:
cycle assist, Competitve Edge Labs

During Cycle:
Epistane(Epi-Strong 15mg Capsules)
Week 1: 30 mg 2 caps a day, one cap in morning at 6am, and one before train at 6pm :questions on times of taking epi?
Week 6: (assuming sides are minimal until this point)

pre workout: jackd3D

omga3 fish oil 2000mg 4 caps a daily, Multi vitamin mens gold 1 cap daily,anobolic innavations through out the hole cycle,plus extra Milk Thistle caps aswell.

Post Cycle:
Nolvadex Dosing and novadex xt
Week 1: 1 tablet at 20mg of nolva a day,novadex 4 caps day for 10 days (Begin day after last Epi)
Week 2: 20mg nolva,novadex 3 caps a day for 10 days
Week 3: 20mg nolva,novadex 2 caps a day for 10 days
Week 4: 20mg nolva,novadex 1 cap a day for 10 days


98 days in total for complete cycle

 

[RickRock13]

Things look pretty good. Only a few things I would change. Dosing of Epi-Strong should be 30 first week and then consider bumping into the second week. 45mg would be the sweet spot and then possible consider 60mg for the last couple weeks. 30/45/45/45/60/60 is how I ran my very first cycle which was Epi-Strong with EXCELLENT results.

PCT of Nolva should be 20/20/10/10 and I would seriously add some OTC test boosting to it also. HCGenerate and DAA would be a great addition to it to help you get those test levels up and keep those gains.

Cycle assist needs ran the whole cycle and in PCT. Also consider adding in some Cissus for the joints or pick up some Skeletal Balm at NTBM. Epi can dry out your joints and that will help a lot.

 

[MDiocre]

This will be my first cycle that i will have ever done

24 years old, 5'8 height, 86kg

Diet and Training are in check.

Feeback would be greatly appreciated from all



Week Before Cycle:
cycle assist, Competitve Edge Labs

During Cycle:
Epistane(Epi-Strong 15mg Capsules)
Week 1: 30 mg 2 caps a day, one cap in morning at 6am, and one before train at 6pm :questions on times of taking epi?
Week 6: (assuming sides are minimal until this point)

pre workout: jackd3D

omga3 fish oil 2000mg 4 caps a daily, Multi vitamin mens gold 1 cap daily,anobolic innavations through out the hole cycle,plus extra Milk Thistle caps aswell.

Post Cycle:
Nolvadex Dosing and novadex xt
Week 1: 1 tablet at 20mg of nolva a day,novadex 4 caps day for 10 days (Begin day after last Epi)
Week 2: 20mg nolva,novadex 3 caps a day for 10 days
Week 3: 20mg nolva,novadex 2 caps a day for 10 days
Week 4: 20mg nolva,novadex 1 cap a day for 10 days


98 days in total for complete cycle

Theres some anecdotal evidence that milk thistle in high levels can have anti-androgen properties. I'm planning on using extra NAC (N-Acetylcysteine) in my next cycle for liver support. It regenerates the liver's detoxicfication machinery. Its what hospitals use to keep people from going into acute liver failure from toxicity (eg tylenol overdose). Good luck on the cycle.

 

[montesj88]

pre workout: jackd3D

I was under the impression running stimulants while on cycle was a no-no because of blood-pressure. Prolly should save that for PCT when your motivation wont be too high.

 

[SardonicMedic]

Theres some anecdotal evidence that milk thistle in high levels can have anti-androgen properties. I'm planning on using extra NAC (N-Acetylcysteine) in my next cycle for liver support. It regenerates the liver's detoxicfication machinery. Its what hospitals use to keep people from going into acute liver failure from toxicity (eg tylenol overdose). Good luck on the cycle.

IV Acetylcysteine is used in the hospital. Orally it has poor to questionable bioavailability and in high levels can commonly cause gastric upset not to mention dat smell.

Using an anecdotal study to warrant not using and tried and true method of protecting your one liver in fear of not obtaining maximum gains of a ph cycle is a bit silly to me.

 

[B5150]

Personal blood work have shown that neither or run concurrently did anything more than solo ALA.

 

[MDiocre]

IV Acetylcysteine is used in the hospital. Orally it has poor to questionable bioavailability and in high levels can commonly cause gastric upset not to mention dat smell.

Using an anecdotal study to warrant not using and tried and true method of protecting your one liver in fear of not obtaining maximum gains of a ph cycle is a bit silly to me.

The wiki article is kind of misleading. They make it sound like IV is used primarily, and PO is secondary.

Per PDR: Acetaminophen overdose 140 mg/kg PO/NG x1. Total Doses: 70 mg/kg PO q4h x17 doses. N-acetylcysteine (NAC): NAC is the antidote for toxic acetaminophen overdose. It is generally given by mouth. The medication has a foul odor but may be mixed with juice or other flavorings to make it taste better. If the person cannot take NAC by mouth, a tube may be placed through the mouth and into the stomach to help administer it. If giving NAC by this method is not possible, the doctor may give it by IV. NAC is generally given for 20-72 hours. The oral solution that can be given by mouth (PO) or through an NG (nasogastric) tube if the patient is obtunded or has intractable vomitting.

 

[SardonicMedic]

The wiki article is kind of misleading. They make it sound like IV is used primarily, and PO is secondary.

Per PDR: Acetaminophen overdose 140 mg/kg PO/NG x1. Total Doses: 70 mg/kg PO q4h x17 doses. N-acetylcysteine (NAC): NAC is the antidote for toxic acetaminophen overdose. It is generally given by mouth. The medication has a foul odor but may be mixed with juice or other flavorings to make it taste better. If the person cannot take NAC by mouth, a tube may be placed through the mouth and into the stomach to help administer it. If giving NAC by this method is not possible, the doctor may give it by IV. NAC is generally given for 20-72 hours. The oral solution that can be given by mouth (PO) or through an NG (nasogastric) tube if the patient is obtunded or has intractable vomitting.

Orally bioavailability hovers somewhere between 6-10%. In the clinical setting with the recent ingestion, charcoal will also be administered which would inhibit the absorption even more, you also have to worry about the strong likelihood of vomiting also mucking things up.

My original point still stands, why discount and tried and true thing because it might hinder results.

More reading:
htt p://anaboli cminds.com/forum/supplements/ 35786-my-milk-thistle .html

 

[B5150]

Oral or Intravenous N-Acetylcysteine: Which Is the Treatment of Choice for Acetaminophen (Paracetamol) Poisoning?
1999, Vol. 37, No. 6 , Pages 759-767 (doi:10.1081/CLT-100102453)

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Nicholas A. Buckley, Dr.Nicholas Buckley, Ian M. Whyte, Dianne L. O'Connell and Andrew H. DawsonRoyal Adelaide Hospital, Adelaide, SA, Australia
Department of Clinical Pharmacology, Royal Adelaide Hospital, S.A., 5000, Australia
Newcastle Mater Misericordiae Hospital, Newcastle, Australia
University of Newcastle, Newcastle, Australia



Background: The optimal route and duration of administration for N–acetylcysteine in the management of acetaminophen (paracetamol) poisoning are controversial. It has been stated on the basis of a selected post-hoc analysis that oral N-acetylcysteine is superior to intravenous N-acetylcysteine in presentations later than 15 hours. Aim of Study: To investigate the efficacy of intravenous or oral N-acetylcysteine. Patients and Methods: We analyzed a series of acetaminophen poisonings treated with a protocol including activated charcoal and intravenous N-acetylcysteine. The outcomes assessed included use of N-acetylcysteine, adverse effects of intravenous N-acetylcysteine, and the occurrence of hepatotoxicity (transaminase >1000U/L). We incorporated these results in a meta-analysis of previously reported series of acetaminophen poisonings to compare the outcomes from intravenous and oral N-acetylcysteine use. Results: Of 981 patients admitted over 10 years, 4% (40) presented later than 24 hours and 10% (100) had concentrations of acetaminophen that indicated a probable or high risk of hepatotoxicity. The 30 patients who developed hepatotoxicity presented later, took larger amounts, had higher concentrations, and received N-acetylcysteine later than those who did not. No patients received a liver transplant but 2 patients died (one after referral to a transplant unit and one just before). Adverse reactions to intravenous N-acetylcysteine occurred in 6% (12/205) of patients but none prevented completion of the treatment. In the meta–analysis, those with probable or high risk concentrations had similar outcomes with intravenous (pooled n = 341) and oral N-acetylcysteine (pooled n = 1462) administration. Rates of hepatotoxicity for those treated within 10 hours (3 and 6%), late (10–24 hours: 30 and 26%), and overall (0–24 hours: 16 and 19%) were all similar. The proportion of patients classified as presenting later than 10 hours is much greater in the oral N-acetylcysteine studies (64%) than in many of the intravenous N-acetylcysteine studies (38%, 44%, and 63%).Conclusions: The differences claimed between oral and intravenous N-acetylcysteine regimes are probably artifactual and relate to inappropriate subgroup analysis. A shorter hospital stay, patient and doctor convenience, and the concerns over the reduction in bioavailability of oral N-acetylcysteine by charcoal and vomiting make intravenous N-acetylcysteine preferable for most patients with acetaminophen poisoning.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

for a first time cycle just do 30/30/45/45 and see how you do. buy another bottle of epi now why u can so down the road you can do something like 30/45/45/45/60/60

 

[MDiocre]

Oral or Intravenous N-Acetylcysteine: Which Is the Treatment of Choice for Acetaminophen (Paracetamol) Poisoning?
1999, Vol. 37, No. 6 , Pages 759-767 (doi:10.1081/CLT-100102453)
Background: The optimal route and duration of administration for N–acetylcysteine in the management of acetaminophen (paracetamol) poisoning are controversial. It has been stated on the basis of a selected post-hoc analysis that oral N-acetylcysteine is superior to intravenous N-acetylcysteine in presentations later than 15 hours. Aim of Study: To investigate the efficacy of intravenous or oral N-acetylcysteine. Patients and Methods: We analyzed a series of acetaminophen poisonings treated with a protocol including activated charcoal and intravenous N-acetylcysteine. The outcomes assessed included use of N-acetylcysteine, adverse effects of intravenous N-acetylcysteine, and the occurrence of hepatotoxicity (transaminase >1000U/L). We incorporated these results in a meta-analysis of previously reported series of acetaminophen poisonings to compare the outcomes from intravenous and oral N-acetylcysteine use. Results: Of 981 patients admitted over 10 years, 4% (40) presented later than 24 hours and 10% (100) had concentrations of acetaminophen that indicated a probable or high risk of hepatotoxicity. The 30 patients who developed hepatotoxicity presented later, took larger amounts, had higher concentrations, and received N-acetylcysteine later than those who did not. No patients received a liver transplant but 2 patients died (one after referral to a transplant unit and one just before). Adverse reactions to intravenous N-acetylcysteine occurred in 6% (12/205) of patients but none prevented completion of the treatment. In the meta–analysis, those with probable or high risk concentrations had similar outcomes with intravenous (pooled n = 341) and oral N-acetylcysteine (pooled n = 1462) administration. Rates of hepatotoxicity for those treated within 10 hours (3 and 6%), late (10–24 hours: 30 and 26%), and overall (0–24 hours: 16 and 19%) were all similar. The proportion of patients classified as presenting later than 10 hours is much greater in the oral N-acetylcysteine studies (64%) than in many of the intravenous N-acetylcysteine studies (38%, 44%, and 63%).Conclusions: The differences claimed between oral and intravenous N-acetylcysteine regimes are probably artifactual and relate to inappropriate subgroup analysis. A shorter hospital stay, patient and doctor convenience, and the concerns over the reduction in bioavailability of oral N-acetylcysteine by charcoal and vomiting make intravenous N-acetylcysteine preferable for most patients with acetaminophen poisoning.

From the same paper...

INTRODUCTION
The use of sulfhydryl donors has dramatically improved
the outcome of acetaminophen (paracetmol) poisoning.
Death from paracetamol hepatotoxicity is very
uncommon in patients presenting to hospital within 16
hours who receive either intravenous (IV) or oral N-acetylcysteine
(NAC).1,2 Two major remaining areas of controversy
are whether activated charcoal should be used
and what the optimal route and duration of administration
for NAC should be. In Europe and Australia, 300 mg/kg
of IV NAC is given over 20 hours.1 In contrast, in the
US, 1330 mg/kg of oral NAC is given over 72 hours.2
That both of these treatments are more effective than no
treatment is not in doubt but the optimal dose, route, and
duration remain debatable. The IV formulation may be
more convenient because of the frequent vomiting associated
with acetaminophen poisoning and oral NAC.3
There are also concerns that oral charcoal may reduce
the bioavailability of oral NAC.4 Others have suggested,
using historical controls,2 that the 72 hours oral NAC regime
may be preferable in patients presenting after 15–
16 hours. However, a subsequent series of patients presenting
after 12 hours showed comparable results with
IV NAC.

Sorry, I probably should've mentioned which country I was speaking from... Unless I am hallucinating on a near daily basis, oral is what is being used at the hospital I work at in Philadelphia.

 

[MDiocre]

Orally bioavailability hovers somewhere between 6-10%. In the clinical setting with the recent ingestion, charcoal will also be administered which would inhibit the absorption even more, you also have to worry about the strong likelihood of vomiting also mucking things up.

My original point still stands, why discount and tried and true thing because it might hinder results.

More reading:
htt p://anaboli cminds.com/forum/supplements/ 35786-my-milk-thistle .html

Because there are other options for liver support, thats all. I was just throwing my 2 cents, I think the OP is smart enough to read into what "anecdotal" (not that strong) evidence means. I was never taking a firm stance against it. I would definitely go MT over nothing.

 

[bigboik]

PCT of Nolva should be 20/20/10/10 and I would seriously add some OTC test boosting to it also. HCGenerate and DAA would be a great addition to it to help you get those test levels up and keep those gains. thanks for the nova advice iam running novadex xt for a hole month with nova isnt that enough to keep my test levels high?

 

[bigboik]

Theres some anecdotal evidence that milk thistle in high levels can have anti-androgen properties. I'm planning on using extra NAC (N-Acetylcysteine) in my next cycle for liver support. It regenerates the liver's detoxicfication machinery. Its what hospitals use to keep people from going into acute liver failure from toxicity (eg tylenol overdose). Good luck on the cycle.

sounds right i was just planning on running extra milk thistle think ill changed my mind too much is excessive thanks for you advice

 

[bigboik]

pre workout: jackd3D

I was under the impression running stimulants while on cycle was a no-no because of blood-pressure. Prolly should save that for PCT when your motivation wont be too high.

thanks for helping me im really appreciating all the help from every one this site in great i will rate highly to friends

 

[bigboik]

for a first time cycle just do 30/30/45/45 and see how you do. buy another bottle of epi now why u can so down the road you can do something like 30/45/45/45/60/60

Ive been told that a 6 week cycle will hold more gains and less stress on you body compared to a high doesage 4 week cycle and not holding as much gains after coming off cycle

 

[TheDarkHalf]

Ive been told that a 6 week cycle will hold more gains and less stress on you body compared to a high doesage 4 week cycle and not holding as much gains after coming off cycle

That's true.....however less stress I would disagree with. If i'm going to run for 6 weeks you better believe i'm going to run high enough dosages to make sure I get my money's worth out of that 6 weeks. Also, your diet in PCT as well as your PCT set up will also determine what you hold on to. If your PCT sucks then you'll lose most of your gains.

PCT should look like this:
SERM (I prefer clomid)
HCgen or natty tbooster of your choice
DAA
Formastanozol or Anti-E of your choice

However even for a first time cycle of EPI I wouldn't waste my time with less than 40mg. Epi was my first cycle and I wish I would have dosed higher then.

 

[gymrat827]

That's true.....however less stress I would disagree with. If i'm going to run for 6 weeks you better believe i'm going to run high enough dosages to make sure I get my money's worth out of that 6 weeks. Also, your diet in PCT as well as your PCT set up will also determine what you hold on to. If your PCT sucks then you'll lose most of your gains.

PCT should look like this:
SERM (I prefer clomid)
HCgen or natty tbooster of your choice
DAA
Formastanozol or Anti-E of your choice

However even for a first time cycle of EPI I wouldn't waste my time with less than 40mg. Epi was my first cycle and I wish I would have dosed higher then.

spot on advice

 

[RickRock13]

That's true.....however less stress I would disagree with. If i'm going to run for 6 weeks you better believe i'm going to run high enough dosages to make sure I get my money's worth out of that 6 weeks. Also, your diet in PCT as well as your PCT set up will also determine what you hold on to. If your PCT sucks then you'll lose most of your gains.

PCT should look like this:
SERM (I prefer clomid)
HCgen or natty tbooster of your choice
DAA
Formastanozol or Anti-E of your choice

However even for a first time cycle of EPI I wouldn't waste my time with less than 40mg. Epi was my first cycle and I wish I would have dosed higher then.

Agree completely

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

by the way stay away from supplement jack3d....especially if on jack3d....

 

[TheDarkHalf]

by the way stay away from supplement jack3d....especially if on jack3d....

I don't see why....I'm on cycle and have been using Launch without issue. I would say it's stronger than Jack3d....right up there with N2KTS, 1MR, and Anarchy.

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

I don't see why....I'm on cycle and have been using Launch without issue. I would say it's stronger than Jack3d....right up there with N2KTS, 1MR, and Anarchy.

1MR, Jack, haha Anarchy.... those are garbage. they will not help you grow at all. if you need that to get into the gym then you shouldnt be working out IMO. That stuff is like crack, i could only see using that on a max day. wait for 1,3 to be banned. It actually has pretty bad health effects.

 

[gymrat827]

1MR, Jack, haha Anarchy.... those are garbage. they will not help you grow at all. if you need that to get into the gym then you shouldnt be working out IMO. That stuff is like crack, i could only see using that on a max day. wait for 1,3 to be banned. It actually has pretty bad health effects.

not saying 1,3 is healthy but those products have their place. and if everyone that used them shouldnt be working out 75% of gym memberships would be gone

 

[bigwhiteguy29]

not saying 1,3 is healthy but those products have their place. and if everyone that used them shouldnt be working out 75% of gym memberships would be gone

thats sad and i think the same thing.

 

[bigboik]

Thank you every one for your advice helpd me out alot I'm on pct now 2nd week in and still holding 5kgs so I've very happy with mr supps epi strong results name sez it all