If someone were to stack these two how would they run the cycle safely, effectively, and for what duration?

What would the considerations be for sides that could be encountered on such a stack?

My understanding so far is that Hdrol is a "mild' PH where as superdrol is not something a newb should screw with and potential for sides is much more apparent.

My understanding of M14ADD is that it converts to Dbol and is great for bulky gains and strength. (wet mass)

My close friend has run tren, hdrol, androdrol, and wants to stack 1 of these two for his next cycel im assuming in April time frame.

He's 5'7" 187 8-10% BF
Eats right, sleeps, trains hard. Hasn't missed more than a week of training since 04'

-My dilemma is he is gonnna run this **** no matter what and I'm trying to help him not screw himself over.(i've told him to get his ass on here many times.)

Help from the Gurus would be great.
-His goal currently is to hit 200lbs or better and strength gains. he naturally carries low BF

-Thanx guys

What up?

-If he runs the Hdrol with M14ADD
HDrol 50/75/75/75/75/75
M14 00/00/120/120/150/150 15% conversion = 22.5mg Dbol last 2 weeks

3. Originally Posted by Hustlers
What up?

-If he runs the Hdrol with M14ADD
HDrol 50/75/75/75/75/75
M14 00/00/120/120/150/150 15% conversion = 22.5mg Dbol last 2 weeks
It's still unclear if M14 converts to d-bol at a recognizeable rate, and M14 may have its own activity; And that is not an accurate conversion. You can't put an exact value on m14's conversion rate especially since rates go back and forth.
See here:
Originally Posted by henryv
Quoting percentages fails to take into account the other routes of metabolism, or the fact that some metabolic routes are reversible
You have a good setup except that m14 should be run 6 weeks with H-drol. Make sure you have a SERM and cycle supports such as Cycle Assist, as well as a testosterone booster or AI in PCT
•

4. Originally Posted by Bry17
It's still unclear if M14 converts to d-bol at a recognizeable rate, and M14 may have its own activity; And that is not an accurate conversion. You can't put an exact value on m14's conversion rate especially since rates go back and forth.
See here:

You have a good setup except that m14 should be run 6 weeks with H-drol. Make sure you have a SERM and cycle supports such as Cycle Assist, as well as a testosterone booster or AI in PCT
I definitely understand where you're coming from with the conversions. 15% seems to be the collective belief in this forum.

I appreciate the info as far as running it for 6 weeks.

Do you guys think that the M14 could b safely run with the Mdrol?

Oh I just saw some Xtren some where is that actually tren? just trying to make sure. Ill be using the Search in a second.

PCT is understood. Unfortunately my buddy doesnt think its as important as im telling him it is because he played russian roulet 2x already with PHs

5. Originally Posted by Hustlers
I definitely understand where you're coming from with the conversions. 15% seems to be the collective belief in this forum.

I appreciate the info as far as running it for 6 weeks.

Do you guys think that the M14 could b safely run with the Mdrol?

Oh I just saw some Xtren some where is that actually tren? just trying to make sure. Ill be using the Search in a second.

PCT is understood. Unfortunately my buddy doesnt think its as important as im telling him it is because he played russian roulet 2x already with PHs
M14 with M-drol? Maybe if you keep the M-drol at low dose. Something like

90/120/120/120/120/150 and M-drol first 3 weeks at 10/10/20 You would see some hardcore gains but this pretty much REQUIRES a SERM to run safely.

X-tren is a prohormone to dienolone. It is not the same as tren, although they are molecularly similar.

6. Originally Posted by Bry17
M14 with M-drol? Maybe if you keep the M-drol at low dose. Something like

90/120/120/120/120/150 and M-drol first 3 weeks at 10/10/20 You would see some hardcore gains but this pretty much REQUIRES a SERM to run safely.

X-tren is a prohormone to dienolone. It is not the same as tren, although they are molecularly similar.
19-Norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione – 30 mg is what is listed on the XTren

Im unfamiliar with Dienolone. Are you saying that Dienolone and whatever was in ACL Tren Extreme are two different substances? If so, do they produce the same great results Tren Extreme was touted for?

7. Originally Posted by Hustlers
19-Norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione – 30 mg is what is listed on the XTren

Im unfamiliar with Dienolone. Are you saying that Dienolone and whatever was in ACL Tren Extreme are two different substances? If so, do they produce the same great results Tren Extreme was touted for?
ACL Tren x and X-tren contain the same ingredient. 19-norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione and estra-4,9 diene-3,17 dione are the same. Both are prohormones to dienolone. Research on dienolone, IIRC it was used to synthesize trenbolone and, as such, is chemically similar.

8. Originally Posted by Bry17
ACL Tren x and X-tren contain the same ingredient. 19-norandrosta-4,9 diene-3,17 dione and estra-4,9 diene-3,17 dione are the same. Both are prohormones to dienolone. Research on dienolone, IIRC it was used to synthesize trenbolone and, as such, is chemically similar.
Thats funny I was just reading the exact smae thing you just posted.
By any chance have you run Xtren or xtreme Tren, Tren Extreme etc?

I noticed in a couple places they said users testes size increased.

9. Originally Posted by Hustlers
Thats funny I was just reading the exact smae thing you just posted.
By any chance have you run Xtren or xtreme Tren, Tren Extreme etc?

I noticed in a couple places they said users testes size increased.
I've never used Tren. I think you mean the opposite, testes size would decrease because tren suppresses your natural pituitary hormone levels and will likely increase the size of the male prostate because dienolone and trenbolone are highly androgenic.

10. m14add is able to bind to the androgen receptor and does not need to convert.

going over 100mg of it is dumb. if you need to dose it over this amount, i'd say you should just run straight mdrol, or alpha one, or dimethazine, w/e other stronger compounds are available that dont need to be ran so high.

but if you can manage to run it at a responsible dosage, like an intelligent person would, you could go with:

60mg of m14add + 20mg of sd should do you good for 4 weeks.

of maybe 90mg of m14add & 10mg of sd for 4 weeks.

11. i never knew dienolone was used to synthesize trenbolone. where did you read this?

12. Originally Posted by jbryand101b
i never knew dienolone was used to synthesize trenbolone. where did you read this?
I read a veterinary study a couple months ago regarding the synthesis of trenbolone. IIRC it said Dienolone was used as a mediate to create the 17b hydroxyestra after the loss of an ethyl at some position (can't remember which one), but I can't source it. I believe the author was Velluz or something

edit just looked, but I can't find it. It was in a long pdf document from what I remember.

13. Originally Posted by Bry17
I've never used Tren. I think you mean the opposite, testes size would decrease because tren suppresses your natural pituitary hormone levels and will likely increase the size of the male prostate because dienolone and trenbolone are highly androgenic.
The US DEA did in vivo testing with dienolone and boldione (DEA Agreement No. DEA-04-P0007.) Yesterday we reported that the American DEA completed a bill which concludes that DMT, boldione, and dienolone be considered anabolic steroids. The drug agency tested the effects of dienolone, aka 19-nor-4,9(10)-androstadienedione, and boldione, aka 1,4-androstadien-3,17-dione, on rats. The most striking outcome of that study: dienolone is strange stuff.

The research workers, Alvin Matsumoto and Brett Marck, administered rat implants which delivered steady levels of the steroid hormones, and also gave rats in a control group implants without active substances (placebo). Eight weeks after the operation, the researchers looked at the effects on the animals. Boldione raised the concentration of testosterone in the rats. Could the antibodies that the research workers used for the boldione analogue have been confused with testosterone? (See Diagram below) Dienolone raised the levels of estradiol in the animals. That is logical. Dienolone seems to convert fairly easily to estrogen.

The concentrations of LH and FSH, the two driving hormones which induce the testes to produce testosterone, were diminished by the administration of both hormones. Remarkably, after the administration of dienolone the weight of the testes increased. This is seen in the figure below.

Then the researchers tested the anabolic / androgenic properties of the two steroids shown via the sizing of the prostate and the levator ani muscle of the rats, as shown in the diagram below.

From the results you would think that dienolone was a more powerful anabolic / androgen than boldione. However this was not the case. The above figures are in relation to the relative weights: the weight of the levator ani muscle and the total body weight of the rats. The rats that received dienolone had gained less weight than the other animals, but mainly because they were less willing to eat. Below you see the weight increases of the test animals. The rats who received dienolone had a larger increase in the weight of the prostate and levator ani muscle, which was not surprising. The fact that the rats who were administered dienolone had an enlargement of the testes, could not be explained. The research workers think that dienolone decreased the appetite because it converted into estradiol. In 1978, researchers discovered that androgens which convert to estradiol especially decrease ones appetite. Weight changes are shown in the diagram below.

Dienolone & Boldione Testing info

Check out the testes comment bro.

As far as the comment on running M14ADD look all around AM and you'll see numerous others saying they will dose the M14ADD at 150mg(and being praised for it at that). Im not arguing whether or not its correct. I came here to learn. This is what I read.

I really have no bias. my opinion on any chemical is to run it in a way that has been successful for others. Anything past that is up to how much you want to risk or benefit.

14. Originally Posted by Hustlers
What up?

-If he runs the Hdrol with M14ADD
HDrol 50/75/75/75/75/75
M14 00/00/120/120/150/150 15% conversion = 22.5mg Dbol last 2 weeks
run it the other way around. m1,4 bridged to hdrol

15. Originally Posted by Hustlers
As far as the comment on running M14ADD look all around AM and you'll see numerous others saying they will dose the M14ADD at 150mg(and being praised for it at that). Im not arguing whether or not its correct. I came here to learn. This is what I read.
okay.

it is very stupid to run a methylated compound that high.

man, this is so ridiculous, I cant even think of a responce.

16. Originally Posted by 2k1s
run it the other way around. m1,4 bridged to hdrol
Absolutely

17. 4-chloro-dehydro-17a-methyl-1,4-androstenediol.

dehydro-17a-methyl-1,4-androstenediol.

i'd rather stack something else besides two compounds with the same base steroid.

epi-20/20/20/30/30/30

18. Originally Posted by jbryand101b
okay.

it is very stupid to run a methylated compound that high.

man, this is so ridiculous, I cant even think of a responce.
If you think that's crazy, there are guys that take doses of M14 as high as 300 and live to tell the tale. Just ask ryansm,

19. how about dbol & test.. dude that crap is gonna fk your lipids up so bad, mdrol will kill ur sexdrive. not to mention mr liver

20. So yeah ive been reading back and forth throughout the day on this post and its subjects....

I'm going to do my best to talk him out of it, if not its his problem-no matter what he'll end up running something.

It would be interesting to see what kind of results would come of it. However, it's obvious there are better choices for stacks.

21. why even stack them. you can get decent results on mdrol alone even though its trash for a ph. go with the real deal dude, quit fkn up your body. look around, find a source. sheesh.

22. Originally Posted by magdielgte
why even stack them. you can get decent results on mdrol alone even though its trash for a ph. go with the real deal dude, quit fkn up your body. look around, find a source. sheesh.

I'm not sure you read the OP.
It's not my idea.
Not my cycle or pending cycle.
I have epi, beast, hdrol, dieselbolan, androhard etc stocked up with me. I don't plan on stacking anything until i run these separately to see how I react. It will be a slower process but whatever, I'm not in a rush like that. As of right now I haven't cycled anything, except novedeXT 6 months ago, which I thought was bunk, and the BS trifecta stack that wasn't worth the cardboard it came in.

Due to my career I have to wait to hit up the juice.
I already have sources for all that **** jst cant use them.
As far as my buddy goes he wants real gear and is tired of PH's so he's starting to get stupid. he doesnt want to go the online route for gear and cant find a local source....

its whatever, but I agree with you i'd rather pin.

23. well be careful because certain phs will give a negative.

24. im well aware of that thats why its good to have a bottle or legal stuff to go...hey heres what I took its not illegal so suck me off.

25. good thinkin hustler. good thinkin, i probably would have avoided the situation. but i guess it all falls back on who u know.

26. Originally Posted by Bry17
If you think that's crazy, there are guys that take doses of M14 as high as 300 and live to tell the tale. Just ask ryansm,
i took it at 180 and was fine- no side effects blew up in size and strength BUT jbry is right in the regard that it is methylated- if you do run it that high your liver will be taxed- but you will live

27. Originally Posted by schwellington
i took it at 180 and was fine- no side effects blew up in size and strength BUT jbry is right in the regard that it is methylated- if you do run it that high your liver will be taxed- but you will live
While I agree with this logic, just remember that not all methylated substances are created equal. So while one's toxicity profile may be harsh, another, depending on the structure of the compound, may be mild. Toxicity levels are largely dependent on androgen receptor binding affinity. The higher the affinity, the higher the toxicity (in most cases)

That being said, the only difference in the structures of M14 and Halo is the presence of the 4 chloro. And look at the differences in dosing; the 4 chloro prevents aromatization, allowing less testosterone to convert to estrogen. This likely increases the strength of the oral, putting H-drol at a lower dose per mg to be utilized effectively. A lot of the M14, however, is wasted by displacement to e2 or methyl estrogen, thus allowing m14 to be dosed relatively high for a methyl.

28. only problem with your logic is that aromatizable compounds (particularly these two) will be stronger because of the aromatization.

the lack of estrogen is what makes the compound weaker.

if you take dianabol and try to compare it with oral turinabol, you will see, where 50mg of dbol will produce dramatic results in size and strength, 50mg of tbol will produce very mild results in the same catagories, and this is because of the lack of aromatization, as well as the 4-chloro lowering it's androgenicity.

so youre just backwards.

again, I am not saying, one can not stack compounds and live & be fine, I have ran crazy stacked cycles, and had my blood work post pct come back above normal ranges.

But, I know how to run a pct taylored just for me. most people new to steriods, will not even have an idea on this.

using m14add at 120 +mg's is just chasing a dream, a dream of using dianabol.

you will get more results from 60mg of m14add + 10mg of superdrol than you will from that. plus less chance of estrogen related sides, and less hepatoxicity.

you can stack any steroid, and have results. you dont even have to know sh*t about steroids to do this.

the purpose of stacking compounds is to stack compounds that will have a synergistic effect on each other, requiring less of each compound to get desired results.

stacking these two compounds creates no synergy. your just stacking the same compound, minus the aromatization & less androgenic.

I'm not trying to knock you guys, just trying to help, by saying, there is a better way.

29. Originally Posted by jbryand101b
only problem with your logic is that aromatizable compounds (particularly these two) will be stronger because of the aromatization.

the lack of estrogen is what makes the compound weaker.

if you take dianabol and try to compare it with oral turinabol, you will see, where 50mg of dbol will produce dramatic results in size and strength, 50mg of tbol will produce very mild results in the same catagories, and this is because of the lack of aromatization, as well as the 4-chloro lowering it's androgenicity.

so youre just backwards.
That's not necessarily true, lol. If you were to pit 150 mg of Halo against 150 of M14 I'd bet money that they'd be equal or Halo would be of higher quality. But then, you can't really make the analogy of d-bol and turin. to halo and m14, because it's still not conclusive if the DS are related to the steroids.

And about the synergy, you can't make the assumption that one steroid will work in partnership with another. For all we know (epi and m14 for ex.) epi could block the enzyme responsible for m14's conversion or it could very well block m14 from binding highly to the AR. There's just not enough evidence to conclude that steroids work together, because there are so many biomechanical pathways that steroids work through, involving gene expression, metabolism, AR activation, etc. etc.

Here we go again

30. well, I'm just speaking on the scientific aspect of the two compounds. adding the 4-chloro makes the compound you could say, weaker, and experts agree, it is because of the changes that the 4-chloro causes in the compound.
some may call it better because the minimal gains will be more quality.

you are right, you cant make the assumption. but you can make a decision based off of again, the makeup of the compund, and how it reacts in the body.

with m14add," you have the introduction of a double bond between carbons 1 and 2, which reduces its relative androgenicity. The resulting compound also has a much weaker relative binding affinity for the androgen receptor." (quoted from anabolics 9th edition)

add the 4-chloro group to a compound with already weakend androgen recpetor binding ability, and you get an even weaker binding androgen, (well, technically, it's classified as an anabolic) but again, this addition, increases the half life of the compound even more so. then, you have that m14add is a diol, (3-hydroxyl) and this allows the compound to bind to the androgen receptor as well, though weaker than it's already weakened bigger brother.

dianabol's "primary" mode of action is on the androgen receptor. this implies that it does have other means of action. it is suggested that d/t it's weak ar binding propterties, possibly much of the action from dianabol comes from it's ability to aromatize into a more potent estrogen.

adding the 4-chloro to dianabol, removing it's ability to aromatize, helps support this claim by showing the less pronounced effects of oral turinabol.

quoted from anabolics 9th edition: [...] This oral steroid is structurally a cross between methandrostenolone and clostebol (4-chlorotestosterone), having the same base structure as Dianabol with the added 4-chloro alteration of clostebol.
This alteration makes chlorodehydromethyltestosteron e a milder cousin of Dianabol, the new steroid displaying no estrogenic and a much less androgenic activity in comparison to its more famous counterpart.
The anabolic activity of chlorodehydromethyltestosteron e is somewhat lower than that of Dianabol as well, but it does maintain a much more favorable balance of anabolic to androgenic effect.
This means that at any given level of muscle-building activity, chlorodehydromethyltestosteron e will be less likely to produce androgenic side effects.

and on stacking, yes, one can not assume what metabolic process will change the steroid. m14add even has a chance to become methyl 1-testosterone via the metabolic process, though, this is a very slight chance, it's still possible.

but one based off their knowledge of compounds, and what the slight changes to these compounds mean, can make a good educated guess on what will work better than something else.

based off of m14add's (and dianabols) weak affinity for the ar, and superdrol's strong affinity for the ar, one can make a good guess that these two compounds will stack nicely together.

what metabolizes in the end, is anyone's guess. but it is def a better assumption that sd, or even epistane, will stack better with m14ad than it's 4-chloro cousin.

you might as well just use an ai instead, and keep some of the compounds ability to bind to the ar, vs using more of the same compound, just weaker version.

thats my reasoning for saying stacking dma (m14add) & cdma (hd) is a dumb idea.

but then, I tend to not go with what everyone is doing.

31. Originally Posted by jbryand101b
well, I'm just speaking on the scientific aspect of the two compounds. adding the 4-chloro makes the compound you could say, weaker, and experts agree, it is because of the changes that the 4-chloro causes in the compound.
some may call it better because the minimal gains will be more quality.

you are right, you cant make the assumption. but you can make a decision based off of again, the makeup of the compund, and how it reacts in the body.

with m14add," you have the introduction of a double bond between carbons 1 and 2, which reduces its relative androgenicity. The resulting compound also has a much weaker relative binding affinity for the androgen receptor." (quoted from anabolics 9th edition)

add the 4-chloro group to a compound with already weakend androgen recpetor binding ability, and you get an even weaker binding androgen, (well, technically, it's classified as an anabolic) but again, this addition, increases the half life of the compound even more so. then, you have that m14add is a diol, (3-hydroxyl) and this allows the compound to bind to the androgen receptor as well, though weaker than it's already weakened bigger brother.

dianabol's "primary" mode of action is on the androgen receptor. this implies that it does have other means of action. it is suggested that d/t it's weak ar binding propterties, possibly much of the action from dianabol comes from it's ability to aromatize into a more potent estrogen.

adding the 4-chloro to dianabol, removing it's ability to aromatize, helps support this claim by showing the less pronounced effects of oral turinabol.

quoted from anabolics 9th edition: [...] This oral steroid is structurally a cross between methandrostenolone and clostebol (4-chlorotestosterone), having the same base structure as Dianabol with the added 4-chloro alteration of clostebol.
This alteration makes chlorodehydromethyltestosteron e a milder cousin of Dianabol, the new steroid displaying no estrogenic and a much less androgenic activity in comparison to its more famous counterpart.
The anabolic activity of chlorodehydromethyltestosteron e is somewhat lower than that of Dianabol as well, but it does maintain a much more favorable balance of anabolic to androgenic effect.
This means that at any given level of muscle-building activity, chlorodehydromethyltestosteron e will be less likely to produce androgenic side effects.

and on stacking, yes, one can not assume what metabolic process will change the steroid. m14add even has a chance to become methyl 1-testosterone via the metabolic process, though, this is a very slight chance, it's still possible.

but one based off their knowledge of compounds, and what the slight changes to these compounds mean, can make a good educated guess on what will work better than something else.

based off of m14add's (and dianabols) weak affinity for the ar, and superdrol's strong affinity for the ar, one can make a good guess that these two compounds will stack nicely together.

what metabolizes in the end, is anyone's guess. but it is def a better assumption that sd, or even epistane, will stack better with m14ad than it's 4-chloro cousin.

you might as well just use an ai instead, and keep some of the compounds ability to bind to the ar, vs using more of the same compound, just weaker version.

thats my reasoning for saying stacking dma (m14add) & cdma (hd) is a dumb idea.

but then, I tend to not go with what everyone is doing.
Good post, but this proves my first point even further. Because, according to PA, androgens are a necessary condition for hepatoxicity to occur. Back to my original post I said all methyl's aren't created equal. So, in theory, it is not a surprise that halo is considered less toxic than other DS. Having a purported A/A ratio of 100:0 or 100:40 (depending on the source) its low androgenic profile is what's responsible for it's relatively low toxicity. So this would make it acceptable to take H-drol at 100 or above. My point, is that some steroids can exceed the recommended dosage because when looking at an anabolic steroid's data the most important thing to look for that almost represents toxicity is it's androgenic ratio.

But you're right , m14 would be very suppressive and dangerous over 100 because of it's conversion to estrogen and ar affinity. I'm just saying, some methylated compounds can be run safely at even 3 times the dosage. m14 is not one of them though

32. posted twice lulz

33. Originally Posted by Bry17
Good post, but this proves my first point even further. Because, according to PA, androgens are a necessary condition for hepatoxicity to occur. Back to my original post I said all methyl's aren't created equal. So, in theory, it is not a surprise that halo is considered less toxic than other DS. Having a purported A/A ratio of 100:0 or 100:40 (depending on the source) its low androgenic profile is what's responsible for it's relatively low toxicity. So this would make it acceptable to take H-drol at 100 or above. My point, is that some steroids can exceed the recommended dosage because when looking at an anabolic steroid's data the most important thing to look for that almost represents toxicity is it's androgenic ratio.

But you're right , m14 would be very suppressive and dangerous over 100 because of it's conversion to estrogen and ar affinity. I'm just saying, some methylated compounds can be run safely at even 3 times the dosage. m14 is not one of them though

I think we're arguing two different points, lol, im discussing stacking the two. im not even thinking on the subject of hepatoxicity of stacking 120mg of m14 & 75-100mg of hd. thats just stupid in my opinion.

but talking reasonable dosages, like 60mg of m14 & 50mg of hd, it's still pointless in my opinion.

pick one, and stack something else. that was my my long ass post was about.

34. Originally Posted by jbryand101b
I think we're arguing two different points, lol, im discussing stacking the two. im not even thinking on the subject of hepatoxicity of stacking 120mg of m14 & 75-100mg of hd. thats just stupid in my opinion.

but talking reasonable dosages, like 60mg of m14 & 50mg of hd, it's still pointless in my opinion.

pick one, and stack something else. that was my my long ass post was about.
Oh lmao, yeah I agree stacking something that has the same base is kind of pointless. It's like stacking Superdrol and Dymethazine, for example. M14 with low dose M-drol sounds like something i'd be interested in although it'd be a little dangerous.

35. you two are awesome. i love the debate this brought up. a lot of great info you guys just pumped out all over AM's face

36. i have tried m14add it is good. pplex was better. mdrol is good. and xtren is the shiznit

37. Originally Posted by Hustlers
Xtren
I noticed in a couple places they said users testes size increased.
Rats. Not humans. And relative to total weight.

Originally Posted by Bry17
Toxicity levels are largely dependent on androgen receptor binding affinity. The higher the affinity, the higher the toxicity (in most cases)
Reference?

Originally Posted by Bry17
...when looking at an anabolic steroid's data the most important thing to look for that almost represents toxicity is it's androgenic ratio.
You realise this is a very different thing than what you said above, right? Do you have any supporting evidence for this either?

38. Originally Posted by henryv

Reference?

You realise this is a very different thing than what you said above, right? Do you have any supporting evidence for this either?

First, when I refer to toxicity, i'm not talking about blood pressure spikes, cholesterol damage, etc. Most of that is just short term anyway. I' talking about the hypertophy of the prostate, elevation of liver values, potential for carcinogens to form..

From the references i'm sourcing, one talks about the tendency of high affinity to affect the formation of liver tumors and cytosol in male rats because of the related increase in E2 levels. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...e&searchtype=a

Another talks about the presence of androgen and estrogen receptors in the prostate and how rise in affinity of androgen receptors, increases estradiol and this increase induces hypertophy of the prostate and tumors.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c&searchtype=a

Edit Whoops excuse me androgen receptor affinity has shown to have no affect on the enlargement of the heart and liver.

39. Originally Posted by Bry17
First, when I refer to toxicity, i'm not talking about blood pressure spikes, cholesterol damage, etc. Most of that is just short term anyway. I' talking about the hypertophy of the prostate, elevation of liver values, potential for carcinogens to form..

From the references i'm sourcing, one talks about the tendency of high affinity to affect the formation of liver tumors and cytosol in male rats because of the related increase in E2 levels. http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...e&searchtype=a

Another talks about the presence of androgen and estrogen receptors in the prostate and how rise in affinity of androgen receptors, increases estradiol and this increase induces hypertophy of the prostate and tumors.http://www.sciencedirect.com/science...c&searchtype=a

Edit Whoops excuse me androgen receptor affinity has shown to have no affect on the enlargement of the heart and liver.
Neither of those two studies has anything to do with the subject at hand.

40. Originally Posted by henryv
Neither of those two studies has anything to do with the subject at hand.
Why? You asked me why I claimed toxicity levels are dependent upon ar affinity, did you not?