Anyone used ATD on cycle to prevent shutdown? aka OTC HCG Jnr - AnabolicMinds.com

Anyone used ATD on cycle to prevent shutdown? aka OTC HCG Jnr

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    Anyone used ATD on cycle to prevent shutdown? aka OTC HCG Jnr


    I posted this over at bb.com and the idea got pood out basically. what do you guys think:

    I've been reading this thread;

    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/post-...-used-hcg.html

    If ATD binds to the hypothalamus (and other areas) in the brain, blocking the androgen receptor, does this mean that your body will increase the GnRH output because its sensing less androgens?

    if true, could it not be used ON cycle to lessen shutdown?

    NB: this is interesting too
    Bodybuilding.com - Site Specific Androgen Receptor Modulation - Get Big, Stay Big! - The Intern

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    I have never heard of that concept before..
    Seems way too good to be true..
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    oh, and as mentioned on the bb.com, the androgen receptor issue is something i want addressed too

    my knowledge is limited, but imo it definitely competes with the androgen receptors in the hypothalamus to a significant level which is why its used in pct. but in skeletal muscle, its blocking of the receptor here is minimal. ie why would gaspari use atd in its test booster, which was hugely successful, if it blocked the androgen receptors in the muscles
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    first link doesn't work

    I am kinda skeptical but I don't know too much about ATD. 2nd article... meh I'd rather see more bloodwork before trusting that article which looks like an ad for an ALRI product and is very vaguely worded.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    first link doesn't work

    I am kinda skeptical but I don't know too much about ATD. 2nd article... meh I'd rather see more bloodwork before trusting that article which looks like an ad for an ALRI product and is very vaguely worded.
    oops, here it is again ATD used as HCG

    i shall try and dig up a few more journals/articles tomorrow.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    first link doesn't work

    I am kinda skeptical but I don't know too much about ATD. 2nd article... meh I'd rather see more bloodwork before trusting that article which looks like an ad for an ALRI product and is very vaguely worded.

    I agree with your observation, seems like an ad.

    Still, it does raise my interest. Would be great to see some more knowledgeable guys chime in on this.
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    You can't call ATD a selective androgen antagonist based on any study ever done up to date (hence no listed sources for the second link which looks like an ad).

    The study that was posted in the first link says that assays were done on the hypothalamus, septum, amydala, and preoptic area of rats and concluded that ATD acted as an androgen receptor antagonist in those areas meaning it blocked androgens from binding to the receptor in those areas.

    However,

    The study simply says ATD acts as an anti-androgen in the brain of rats.

    The study does not say ATD ONLY acts as an anti-androgen in the brains of rats which would make it a SARM.

    Huge difference.

    The second article plays off the idea that ATD is a SARM which I challenge anyone to bring literature that says ATD is a SARM.

    Here are the facts in this case:

    -If too much androgen receptors are stimulated in the hypothalamus, then GnRH decreases and testosterone goes down.

    -If there is little androgen receptor stimulation in the hypothalamus, then GnRH increases and testosterone goes up.

    -ATD blocks androgens from binding to the androgen receptors in the hypothalamus of rats.


    Think logically... can you conclude that ATD can be used as hCG substitute with these three facts^ alone? There is some big missing pieces to come to that conclusion.

    And if it is not a SARM in it's androgen receptor blocking (which no research suggests it is) you are potentially screwed if you use it.
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    Why do people keep searching for an OTC HCG? Its not that hard to find.
    Just inject.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    You can't call ATD a selective androgen antagonist based on any study ever done up to date (hence no listed sources for the second link which looks like an ad).

    The study that was posted in the first link says that assays were done on the hypothalamus, septum, amydala, and preoptic area of rats and concluded that ATD acted as an androgen receptor antagonist in those areas meaning it blocked androgens from binding to the receptor in those areas.

    However,

    The study simply says ATD acts as an anti-androgen in the brain of rats.

    The study does not say ATD ONLY acts as an anti-androgen in the brains of rats which would make it a SARM.

    Huge difference.

    The second article plays off the idea that ATD is a SARM which I challenge anyone to bring literature that says ATD is a SARM.

    Here are the facts in this case:

    -If too much androgen receptors are stimulated in the hypothalamus, then GnRH decreases and testosterone goes down.

    -If there is little androgen receptor stimulation in the hypothalamus, then GnRH increases and testosterone goes up.

    -ATD blocks androgens from binding to the androgen receptors in the hypothalamus of rats.


    Think logically... can you conclude that ATD can be used as hCG substitute with these three facts^ alone? There is some big missing pieces to come to that conclusion.


    And if it is not a SARM in it's androgen receptor blocking (which no research suggests it is) you are potentially screwed if you use it.
    i assume im missing something because the points you make above sound like something you want on cycle. if the hypothalamus cant detect the androgens, then logically wouldnt GnRH increase, even in the presence higher test levels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    i assume im missing something because the points you make above sound like something you want on cycle. if the hypothalamus cant detect the androgens, then logically wouldnt GnRH increase, even in the presence higher test levels.
    Well if you want it to work you have to assume that:

    ATD is an anti-androgen in the human hypothalamus and it is not an anti-androgen in the muscles of humans.

    That's a big assumption from the only fact we have which is ATD is an anti-androgen in the hypothalamus of rats.

    Also keep in mind that every area of the brain they tested in the rat showed ATD acted as an anti-androgen there so it was not just specific to the hypothalamus... now how far this action of blocking the androgen receptor goes within the human body or whether it even happens is anyones guess...
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    i have taken ATD on my first cycle and it didnt help with shutdown.

    it was finaflex 550 xd. it has sd, tren, and ATD in it. and the ATD did nothing to help the boys stay full and hang low.
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    if atd did this we would all know it by now I would think.pretty interesting read though.I believe atd to be a decent t booster,very mild ai and decent lean bulking aid and possible fat loss aid to some.

    I wouldn't use atd while on cycle due to the fact some estrogen is good.also in high doses its been proven to kill libido.

    its not going to lessen shutdown.
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    You can purchase GnRH now from a well known research chem site. While I have no issue getting ahold of hcg, I would be curious to see how using a substance further back in the feedback loop would work.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    if atd did this we would all know it by now I would think.pretty interesting read though.I believe atd to be a decent t booster,very mild ai and decent lean bulking aid and possible fat loss aid to some.

    I wouldn't use atd while on cycle due to the fact some estrogen is good.also in high doses its been proven to kill libido.

    its not going to lessen shutdown
    .
    the problem is that, so often ideas perpetuate without reason/fact/evidence. eg a few years ago some company reps said we need cortisol blockers in pct, and coincidentally also sold cortisol blockers. Soon enough nearly everyone seems to recommending a cortisol blocker in pct. despite searching/asking, ive yet to see ANY bloods, let alone cortisol high enough to cause catabolism

    once something is established, especially in the anabolics world it takes a huuge amount of support/effort for it to change. eg pulsing, pyramiding anabolics

    too often, when an idea that is unconventional is suggested, the immediate response is no. look at the responses i got in the bb.com thread. very few answers, and generally those were negative/dismissive.

    this is not an attack, but your respnse is typical. without knowing how, or trying to explain why, a blanket statement is made saying it wont help prevent shutdown. and the usual it kills your joints and libido. logically, when others read this kind of reply, without understanding the physiology, they go on to repeat it in other discussions.

    chocolatemilk has been great here, in trying to discuss the subject which is what should be done. so that we can have at least a basic understanding of the physiology as to why it would/wouldnt work, and not just saying 'it wont'.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    *if atd did this we would all know it by now* I would think.pretty interesting read though.I believe atd to be a decent t booster,very mild ai and decent lean bulking aid and possible fat loss aid to some.

    I wouldn't use atd while on cycle due to the fact some estrogen is good.also in high doses its been proven to kill libido.

    its not going to lessen shutdown.
    this is what I was thinking too
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    the problem is that, so often ideas perpetuate without reason/fact/evidence. eg a few years ago some company reps said we need cortisol blockers in pct, and coincidentally also sold cortisol blockers. Soon enough nearly everyone seems to recommending a cortisol blocker in pct. despite searching/asking, ive yet to see ANY bloods, let alone cortisol high enough to cause catabolism

    once something is established, especially in the anabolics world it takes a huuge amount of support/effort for it to change. eg pulsing, pyramiding anabolics

    too often, when an idea that is unconventional is suggested, the immediate response is no. look at the responses i got in the bb.com thread. very few answers, and generally those were negative/dismissive.

    this is not an attack, but your respnse is typical. without knowing how, or trying to explain why, a blanket statement is made saying it wont help prevent shutdown. and the usual it kills your joints and libido. logically, when others read this kind of reply, without understanding the physiology, they go on to repeat it in other discussions.

    chocolatemilk has been great here, in trying to discuss the subject which is what should be done. so that we can have at least a basic understanding of the physiology as to why it would/wouldnt work, and not just saying 'it wont'.

    My reply is based on user results and the actions of the compound itself.The read itself seems to latch onto a point and run with it.This type of writing will sway the normal user into thinking atd is a great choice and will be the end all be all in some regard.Write ups are great but some simply don't match up and should be read mainly for entertainment purposes and nothing else.

    I'm not simply shooting the idea down simply because its out of left field.I'm shooting it down because as CM has shown the holes in the read are very easy to point out.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    My reply is based on user results and the actions of the compound itself.The read itself seems to latch onto a point and run with it.This type of writing will sway the normal user into thinking atd is a great choice and will be the end all be all in some regard.Write ups are great but some simply don't match up and should be read mainly for entertainment purposes and nothing else.

    I'm not simply shooting the idea down simply because its out of left field.I'm shooting it down because as CM has shown the holes in the read are very easy to point out.
    the actions of the compound itself is hardly understood by the majority. generally, people know its an AI, and sometimes say its an anti-androgen. but beyond this, what do people actually know? the aim of this thread is to discuss its action/metabolites in more detail to discover whether its an anti-androgen in the skeletal muscles, actions on the brain, and whether it can help lessen/prevent hpta shutdown.

    i dont say that it is a good idea to run, im trying to get a discussion going, and not saying straight it should or shouldnt be used.

    ive not seen many at all who have used ATD on cycle. its rarely used, mainly because the topic is never discussed because people poo poo the idea without ever giving the science/physiology behind it a chance. anecdotal evidence can only be so helpful. its like the cortisol issue, its repeated over and over without understanding why besides 'cortisol rises and you need to block in from week 3 onwards'.

    if this discussion, once more research/articles/journals are posted and not just hearsay/little anecdotal evidence, shows that atd in balance is a poor choice, then ill reside myself to that but until then, i think its only sensible to keep an open mind.
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    Good discussion nonetheless... Mich makes a good point that one cannot dish out user feedback.

    If you find more studies with ATD throw em up Mark.
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    Quote Originally Posted by chocolatemilk View Post
    Good discussion nonetheless... Mich makes a good point that one cannot dish out user feedback.

    If you find more studies with ATD throw em up Mark.
    will do. im home now, so posting/searching will be easier. will post soon with more info
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    this is going to be a great discussion.great topic mark.I'll be checking on this every now and then.I like a good discussion
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    Is anyone able to get the full text of this journal


    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

    Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

    Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

    According to various articles posted in bb.com, they reference this when saying that ATD only affects 10% of skeletal muscle androgen receptors but 90% of the hypothalamus
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    Quote Originally Posted by mark118 View Post
    Is anyone able to get the full text of this journal


    Effects of ATD on male sexual behavior and androgen receptor binding: a reexamination of the aromatization hypothesis.

    Kaplan ME, McGinnis MY.

    Department of Anatomy, Mount Sinai School of Medicine, CUNY, New York 10029.

    According to various articles posted in bb.com, they reference this when saying that ATD only affects 10% of skeletal muscle androgen receptors but 90% of the hypothalamus
    check out sciencedirect or throw that thing in Google Scholar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mich29 View Post
    check out sciencedirect or throw that thing in Google Scholar
    unfortunately i dont have accounts with either science direct or elsevier. i can only access the abstract, but its the body of the text im after because its talks about the skeletal vs hypothalamic effects of atd.
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    unfortunately, my research on the subject has been lacking recently.

    i will try again this week. maybe gaspari has some info on it in their research as nov xt used atd...
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    I've tried ATD on cycle. It does not prevent shutdown. It probably lessons it due to the fact that is is an AI...possibly the anti androgen effects. I think the androgen being taken outweighs the affects of the ATD. I do like ATD to raise test levels. My balls get huge on it. But also I get very dry from it and have to run a low dose. I wonder if DS has any info on this. ATD has been out for years and I'm sure they did research before releasing it.
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    The aromatase inhibitor (ATD) reduces disinhibitory behavior in intact adult male rats treated with a high dose of testosterone.

    http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19766145
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