Advice Needed on Hdrol cycle...gyno???? Crazy I know....
- 08-01-2010, 05:42 PM
Advice Needed on Hdrol cycle...gyno???? Crazy I know....
Alright guys I know that this issue has been brought up millions of freaking times on every board around, but here it goes again.
First off I am not predisposed to gyno, I never had it as a adolescent. I have done 1 cycle of a PH before, I ran HDROL and Tren for 6 weeks, and had no gyno related issues. I used a SERM (Nolva) PCT for this cycle and kept all 12 lbs of weight gained....
I am running my second cycle, consisting solely of CEL HDROL. I planned on running a 6 week cycle @ 75mg per day. I am running CEL Cycle Assist, Liv52, VIT C, Fish Oil, CoQ10, ALA, and have added in several additional doses of hawthorn berries and milk thistle, because I have been eating out a lot ( I am aware that Cycle Assist possess both of these ingredients). I planned on using Nolvadex as PCT. I am on the week 2ish going on 3rd week of Hdrol cycle and have been having some slight gyno(?) related issues. I am 5ft11in, 210 lbs, 13-14% BF (approx): mainly because I bulked pre-cycle and I am bulking during this cycle.
I know that Hdrol doesn't really aromatize and is relatively mild with regards to side effects, especially compared to other PH's. However I do understand that any type of hormonal change can bring about unwanted side effects, such as gyno. I also know that any type of PH will cause slight irritation/sensitivity, etc. in the nipple region and that people do have a tendency to over react and be paranoid with diagnosing gyno. I know that every NOOB thinks that they have gyno.....
I am outta state on business trip (thus the eating out more frequently) so I don't have my camera on me, this is why I haven't posted any photos.
Four days ago I noticed some slight tenderness/tingling, almost burning sensation in both of my nipples. I experienced this sensitivity infrequently (3-4 times maybe?) during my last cycle so I didn't take it to heart. I haven't felt this tingling sensation since then, but I have been checking my nipples more frequently (paranoid I know). My right nipple seems to be developing something that I can only describe as "fibrous tissue" on the top/right side of the nipple. When I press my right nipple in I also feel a slight growth (similar to a small pebble/stone/bump perhaps?) under the nipple. The pebble like growth seems to be getting denser/thicker over the past several days. My right nipple is not really elevated, but way more "defined", when compared to my left nipple. The right nipple is also slightly larger then my left nipple (approx. 1/6 of an inch perhaps ?). I have not experienced any pain, etc.
My question is, what do I do? Does this sound like the the onset signs of gyno? I've seen so much information and disinformation on the subject via the internet that I don't know how to proceed...
Should I end my cycle immediately and begin PCT? Consisting of Nolva? If so, how do I dose Nolva and PCT duration for a barely 2 week cycle of HDROL?
Should I continue cycle my cycle and dose Nolva 10mg per day, until cycle end and then begin PCT at 6 weeks in as planned?
Do I say f*** the Nolva and get some Letro? and run this? Immediately or after cycle? If so, how do I dose Letro (mg dosage and for what duration for a 2-3 week cycle). I would also have to wait a week before I can get Letro....
Any other option. I really need your expert help on this! It sucks to because the Hdrol hasn't really kicked in yet....in terms of lean gains....
- 08-01-2010, 05:48 PM
start by adding in some nolva and see how that works
Don't post on my profile, I don't read that stuff, PM me instead
<------ Hard to believe, but I wasn't on any anabolics in the avatar shot
- 08-01-2010, 05:52 PM
That's what I was thinking about doing. I was thinking 10mg at night to avoid the Nolva sides (sweating, etc.). UNREAL whats your opinion, will Nolva destroy the seemingly developing gyno or stop its further progression? There's so much hearsay on the matter, and everyone seems to post different medical studies supporting their belief but seemingly contradicting each other.
08-01-2010, 06:42 PM
I have no idea. Weird to get gyno on halodrol. But like I always say gyno is so complicated, who can fully understand it? Not me.
Nolva is probably the most frequently used compound to treat gyno so it's the best candidate to start using right now. I feel its probably safer than an AI.
Sweating from nolva? Weird i get no sides from it.
Don't post on my profile, I don't read that stuff, PM me instead
<------ Hard to believe, but I wasn't on any anabolics in the avatar shot
08-01-2010, 06:56 PM
I know man, everyone says, Halodrol doesn't cause gyno, so its bizarre. Hell I did it before and had great results and no sides/issues.
So you think this sounds like the onset of gyno as well? That was my interpretation of this nonsense lol.
I got weird night sweats from it, or at least I attributed this to the Nolva. I get the sweats from PH's as well and strange dreams...
08-01-2010, 07:19 PM
bro if you push on your nips and theres no pain, it's probably not gyno. i think that most ppl go on cycle, then read about gyno and then start playing with their nips and feeling for lumps and that actually irritates them.
but like unreal said maybe start the nolva, but i wouldn't trip unless you had lumps underneath your nips and they were painful.
08-01-2010, 07:30 PM
Thanks Beast. Thats what I assumed. I had a friend who had gyno (had tissue removed via surgery later down the road) and he swears that his gyno came on without warning and that he never had any pain. Needless to say that freaked me the **** out of me...I do have bumps though...So who the hell knows.
I'm gonna start dosing the Nolva at 10mg at night, you think 10mg or 20mg? I've heard diff. opinions on dosage to use during cycle....
08-01-2010, 07:37 PM
well if you really think those lumps or pebbles were never there, yeah i guess run some nolva just to be safe.
but man if its just small pebble that you can feel and its not painful, i'm sure it was always there, its just gonna feel like its getting bigger cause you keep playing with ur nips. stop touching them! lol....
but if your gonna run the nolva, start with 20mg.
08-01-2010, 07:43 PM
Thanks man... Note to self...stop touching nipples LMAO. I'll try to limit my nipple touching to once daily, but Its just so damn hard, J/K.... Thank god my girls not here to see me, freaking out and constantly touching my nipples, I think she would start to wonder about me, if you get my drift lol.
Alright I'm going to start NOLVA 20mg at night and continue the cycle as normal. I'm going to do the 20mg in one dosing.
08-01-2010, 07:46 PM
yeah dude just relax man. for real. i'm sure it's not gyno. i've never had a flare up, but dude i think you would know. it should be really painful.
but good luck bro.
08-01-2010, 07:47 PM
08-01-2010, 08:07 PM
08-01-2010, 08:20 PM
08-01-2010, 08:34 PM
Check out my thread....
Yes, Hdrol shouldnt cause Gyno directley, but as you said before ANYTHING hormonal can react differently in your body than others.
My gyno Symptons went away completely after running Nolva during cycle until the subside. I did 30mg for the first 2 days to flood my system then down to 20mg for about a week, 10mg then tapered off completley.
I have only week left of hdrol anyways and i am getting good results!
Brilliant advice from this forum kept me from FREAKING out. Hey my nipples are still PUFFY as, but that is expected on any DS/PH. No lump though
08-01-2010, 08:59 PM
Excellent post man. I think that I did read your post, haven't checked it out in a few, but I'll have to give it a re-read and get any new information.
How did you taper did you taper down and make the transition from 20mg to 10mg? Over how long a period?
What kind of gains have you seen so far from HDROL? And when did you begin to feel the effects. During my last cycle it wasn't until about 2 1/2 weeks into my cycle before I noticed any change. I know they say three weeks until Hdrol really kicks into full swing, but everyone's different. A body of mine didn't feel the effects until week 4...
08-01-2010, 09:00 PM
08-01-2010, 10:12 PM
Ok so i flooded my system with 30mgs for 2 days, then for the next 5 days i dosed it at 20mgs, then the lump went away but just to be on the safe side i dosed it at 10mgs for about 3 or 4 days i think and now im off it. Nips are very puffy still but that will subside after my cycle finishes hopefully.
Pretty good gains. I have put on about 6 kilos of muscle and lost a bit of fat. Remember Nolva can reduce your gains somewhat so thats why if you see the lump go away completley sooner than later taper it right down to 10mg then come off it and finish your cycle I felt h drol right off the bat in the second week!
Dont stress and run your Nolva straight away and make sure you have enough for proper PCT 20/20/10/10
As Unreal said Gyno is very complicated and i am NO expert but your situation is extremley simliar to mine so i hope i can help out somewhat with my experience
08-01-2010, 11:31 PM
Excellent info. Thanks for the productive comments. Nice gains.
I am going to look at the positives Nolva increase IGF-1 production, provides additional immune support, and increase SHBG and test...Oh and no bitch tits lol.
I know that Nolva messes with muscle breakdown, which is completely antithetical to achieving muscle growth...and to be honest sucks. But I'd rather be safe then sorry.
08-02-2010, 01:50 AM
Nolva can actually decrease IGF-1 a little, hence the reason why it may decrease your gains. Keep your calories up and diet in check and this should not worry you.
Exactley. Better than having tits!
Oh and about your cycle, why did you opt for straight out 75/75/75/75/75/75?
Remember IF seeing gyno or other side effects at that dosage pretty close into your cycle, dont be scared to drop the dosage, even though IMO 50mg is extremley weak.
I would have got my body accustomed to it and started out slow 50/50/75/75/75/75 (or even 100)
Good luck though dude! Keep me posted on your progress and remember what you have is most likely only symptons of gyno, Hdrol doesnt really convert to estrogen so it just means your hormones are a bit out of whack and you have a bit of built up estrogen. Atleast that is what alot of my friends said. And STOP touching them and thinking about them, once the nolva starts to work check it ONCE a day to see wether the lump is reducing and then leave them
08-02-2010, 04:19 AM
Was reading you 1st post and the previous "tren" use caught my eye. I think tren is known to cause gyno flares. After your 1st cycle, the tren might of made your receptors more sensitive, but sides remained dormant until your cycle now, where H-Drol might of antagonized or caused further sensitivity/progression.
I'm no expert and just going by my understanding and things I have seen posted in other threads. Keep us updated.
08-02-2010, 05:17 AM
Just wondering if you had this happen to you and you didn't have Nolva on hand but had Clomid would this help?
08-02-2010, 01:47 PM
DBSHAVER: Thanks man! I thought it increased IGF my bad...Good advice. I also read your entire thread about your similar issue and I began to a higher dose of Nolva last night, I did 40mg. I will do 40mg tonight as well, then drop down progressively from there. I am going to keep the dosage at 75mg for a few more days and see where it all goes from there. If I see not decrease in size/sensitivity in 2 days I will decrease my Hdrol to 50mg and continue from there. I started the cycle at 75mg because I was under the misguided impression that I could take it at this MG? I have been taking cycle assist and Liv52 continuously for the past 2 years, so need to preload or what have you, and due to my success off of my last cycle which I ran HDROL @50/50/75/75/75/75 I figured I could start at 75MG off of the bat. I am thinking of getting some of that test conversion cream made by PP, perhaps it will help to balance everything out? Tight for cash so I have to wait, a day before ordering.
Bashman: I hadn't considered that but it does seem absolutely plausible. I can't believe that I hadn't thought about that possibility. That would make sense, tren is known for causing dormant gyno/rebound gyno, or so I've read. Thanks!
mikeyb123: I have no idea bro. Perhaps someone with more knowledge then I could answer this. I do have clomid on hand should someone give me good evidence that using it could help. I am going to stick give the Nolva a try and see what happens.
I'll keep everyone updated on my progress! No change as of late, but its only been a day!
08-02-2010, 01:57 PM
Remember you don't have full on gyno, just symptoms, so use the nolva, don't pinch your nips and you should be fine.
The other important thing, is to find out the cause, reason why I brought up the tren, so you can gather a better understanding of what to use and stay away from - meaning more safe cycles in the long run.
Look out for any leaky nips as this could be gyno due to high prolactin issues. In that case, grab some caber dose at .5mg I believe E3D (has a long half-life) or some claim P5P to work, which again I think is dosed at 400mg a day. Probably need more experienced members to comment.
08-02-2010, 07:01 PM
08-02-2010, 07:06 PM
Clomid would help definitley but i dont think it is more reccommended on cycle than nolva. Clomid has some harsher side effects than Nolva and i am not 100% sure how it would affect your cycle. Clomid can help your HPTA and help with Gyno.
Nolva is great because it attaches or binds to your breast tissue and regulates the estrogen there instead of absolutley destroying it like Letro etc You need estrogen while on cycle!
Oh Xerxes, do 40mg for 2 days then drop it down to 30 or 20 for the next couple of days, you should see some improvement in that time space. Dont expect it to work in 2 days Be patient and dont stress
08-02-2010, 07:29 PM
I kind of dissagree with the above post. Not about the clomid or the nolva, but the dosage of the nolva.
Start with 20 unless you are already up sh*t creek so to speak. If it's gyno you should almost immediately know a difference within a day or two. It might not be fixed yet, but you'll know whether it's working or not.
...GMG760 Version 2.0 ... Back from the dead.
08-02-2010, 08:22 PM
Very true too. See my gyno went away in 2 or 3 days but the lump was still there until about 5-6 days. Everyone is different though. I agree, i did see some improvement, i just want him to be patient because i wasnt thats all, then you can really fall behind on your cycle, which i did a bit. I stressed out, panicked for atleast 3 or 4 days and i reckon at the gym i didnt go as hard, so as i said be patient
Mine was very, very noticible, sore and my nipple looked deformed though hence why i flooded my system with Nolva the first day or so, Then dropped it down to 20mg I have read somewhere that Nolva takes a few days to really get into your blood plasma levels?! I could be wrong.
08-03-2010, 02:33 PM
08-03-2010, 08:56 PM
Damn, I posted a response/update earlier, but it didn't go up I guess?
I ran 40mg of Nolva day 1, 20mg Day 2. And I still kept the Hdrol dosage @ 75mg.
Day 1: Sensitivity in nipple area decreased, by the end of the night my bump/pebble in the center of my nipple decreased in size as well. Can barely feel it.
Day 2: Woke up and center pebble was gone, the area is still slightly sensitive but only around the right upper quadrant. There is still a gyno like "disc" near the upper right quadrant on my nipple where all the sensitivity is, but it seems to be going down further. Still feels kinda inflamed....Sorry for saying nipple so much! Its hard not say nipple when talking about gyno haha.
I'll keep you all updated....
Anyone know how greatly the Nolva will effect my gains? I know it wont be exact, but I will settle for any approximations, etc.
08-04-2010, 03:29 AM
Damn, I see alot of gyno threads now relating w/ h-drol. what's up with this. hopefully it won't happen in mine.
08-04-2010, 03:39 AM
Thats all good to hear. I'd say keep dosing the Nolva at 10mg for the next 4 days or possibly until the "disc" in your pec has subsided. It should not interfere your gains. Keep us posted throughout the cycle. If you still have puffy nips by the end of the H-Drol, I would maybe suggest bumping the 1st couple of days of PCT to 40 Nolva, so 40 for 3-4 days then 20 thereafter and taper down throughout week.
Its kinda of strange how recently 2 people have got Gyno from H-Drol run. Dodgy batch going around??? But then given the location of yourself and dsbhaver, that kind of rules possibility out.
08-04-2010, 03:42 AM
08-04-2010, 01:27 PM
Thanks for the PCT advice, pretty much what I was shooting to do anyway. Its weird @ Day 3 (today) I have no tenderness at all, but disc is still there, but slightly smaller and less inflamed? I keep getting a mixed bag about Nolva's effect on my gains, some say it will severely hinder them and others say it will be negligible. I guess time will tell
These Hdrol gyno threads have been popping up for the past few years, albeit sporadically, especially when compared to the other PH compounds that can produce gyno. I actually purchased my Hdrol from overseas, family is from UK and I got a super discount because I know the fella peddling the stuff. I am sure there no correlation though, just out of curiosity whats your batch number DSBHAVER? Mine are 53039 and 53392. I believe I've read a few threads where people have ran 53039 and had no issues...not sure about 53392. I am not knocking CEL, they make a great line of products, I use there Cycle Assist even when I am not on cycle and there Hdrol is the only one that I would touch.
08-04-2010, 01:33 PM
I've been thinking about adding some Primordial Performance Dermacrine to the cycle. I've heard from several sources, as well as someone from DSBHAVER's similar gyno thread I believe, that it could help to balance out the hormonal imbalance that is perhaps causing my gyno onset, what do you guys think about this? Plus Primordial Performance stuff is on blowout sale @ NP, so I better snatch some up quick!
Anyone have experience? Or any hearsay/speculation about this?
08-04-2010, 05:34 PM
I duno about the Dermacrine, sounds a bit off to try and cure a problem by adding another substance to the mix. Suppose its debatable, bit like people who run epistane to try and cure existing gyno.
I would just keep dosing the Nolva at 10mg ED for the next few days till your sides disappear. I suppose then if you really wanted to you could add the Dermacrine, sounds like you know more than me on this subject.
08-04-2010, 06:10 PM
No worries about the Nolva. I am going to keep on dosing that, that's a given my friend. Since I posted earlier in the afternoon my disc is already feeling smaller and less noticeable, this is great. I am going to have to do some more research on the Dermacrine and see what I come up with.
I was going through some of my previous notes (I keep personal logs of work out routines, diet macros, supplements, etc. ) and I realized that at the beginning of the year I ran some old formula bottles of Gaspari's Novodex XT and 2 weeks after I finished both bottles of Novodex I wrote down the following: "noticed slight nipple itch, burning sensation on right nipple", but I never really put much thought in to it. I wonder if this could have any effect on my current situation? I've read about ATD compounds, especially Novodex causing a gyno-rebound effect, anyone have reputable information on this concept?
Sorry bout all the questions, its driving me nuts trying to figure out what triggered the gyno onset. I need to figure out what supplements to avoid...
08-04-2010, 06:26 PM
What would you say about adding Clomid to break down my new-found-tit instead of nolva? I have clomid, don't have nolva, but am looking for a reputable source if anyone has one. I am on a SD/tren cycle currently, btw.
08-04-2010, 07:02 PM
How do i find my batch number? I highly doubt that is a bad batch of hormones that just cause people gyno. Everyone is different, and just because hdrol doesnt convert to estrogen OR has no one complaining about gyno doesnt mean it wont happen to you. Some people have lots of estrogen build up, or lack of, lack of test, too much test, so much imbalance before you take something sythentic in your boyd ofcourse your body may react negatively.
08-04-2010, 07:06 PM
I agree with bashman. Dermacrine is another hormonal thing your going to add to your body? I dont really agree with battling a side effect from a DS with another DS or PH or whatever it is....each to their own though, i have seen alot of people love espitane for reducing their gyno
08-04-2010, 07:09 PM
Did it just flare up OR have you had this issue previously?
If it was there previously, i would have no idea on why you chose to do Tren?!
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