Originally Posted by Jasen

Yah it was the greatest oral stacker! Plus atleaat to me the water bloat was very little, sd being a mild diuretic

Sounds like fun! If only I could get my hands on some real gear again, with some test that would be TASTY,

I'm gonna read your log

Sure! Lol pm if u got any questions

Originally Posted by hungryH

I did not mean to start such a sh*tstorm around here.

I no longer use any liver protectants anymore,nor will I ever again, and I can only use legal/oral ph/ds now(for legal reasons).

I have always gotten bloodwork after every cycle I have ever done.
My last cycle was xtren 240mg for 9 weeks, and m1t 30mg 6 weeks.
My ALT and AST were between 100-120(which is absolutely nothing to worry about).
I used no liver support supps at all.

These values only slightly higher than the bloodwork after cycles which I used liver protectants with, which had always been AX perfect cycle and himalaya liv.52(for my first 3 oral cycles-havoc/superdrol,high dose sd, high dose phera), and this is most likely simply because this was a more hepatoxic cycle.

Now, this Liver-Juice may say that it supports the liver up to 80% but do you know why it says that? First to get you to buy the product, and second because all it has EVER been proven to do is regulate enzyme levels and over LONG periods of time has shown effective in doing so. Now, do you know what that means? Absolutely nothing at all! That means that over a very long time, milk thistle will give you stable enzyme levels and thats about it. Enzymes are your livers way of letting the body know that its damaged so for instance if you have a damaged liver, the enzymes are released into your bloodstream for a doctor to tell its damaged. Now if you have healthy enzymes and are taking milk thistle for a long period of time, all its going to do is hide the fact that something is really wrong. Milk thistle has never been proven as an effective liver aid.

As for repairing damaged livers, milk thistle HAS been proven to NOT be beneficial in the treatment of Hepatitus.I can post the studies if anyone cares.

UDCA is what your body uses to cleanse your liver.

milk thistle makes your body create more UDCA.


seems pretty straightforward

Originally Posted by Jasen

Sure! Lol pm if u got any questions

haha cheers bud

just one-did you get any bloodwork before/after?
I am curious about your liver enzymes post-cycle.
I have never run anadrol, and actually know very little about it other that it is an extremely potent compound.

Its a fun oral 2nd favorite to me. Strenght and size r awsome. Blood work comes 3days before pct that way we know how bad im messedup and where to fix what

I like NAC

I use mt choline nac and ala

Originally Posted by hungryH

I did not mean to start such a sh*tstorm around here.

I no longer use any liver protectants anymore,nor will I ever again, and I can only use legal/oral ph/ds now(for legal reasons).

I have always gotten bloodwork after every cycle I have ever done.
My last cycle was xtren 240mg for 9 weeks, and m1t 30mg 6 weeks.
My ALT and AST were between 100-120(which is absolutely nothing to worry about).
I used no liver support supps at all.

These values only slightly higher than the bloodwork after cycles which I used liver protectants with, which had always been AX perfect cycle and himalaya liv.52(for my first 3 oral cycles-havoc/superdrol,high dose sd, high dose phera), and this is most likely simply because this was a more hepatoxic cycle.

Now, this Liver-Juice may say that it supports the liver up to 80% but do you know why it says that? First to get you to buy the product, and second because all it has EVER been proven to do is regulate enzyme levels and over LONG periods of time has shown effective in doing so. Now, do you know what that means? Absolutely nothing at all! That means that over a very long time, milk thistle will give you stable enzyme levels and thats about it. Enzymes are your livers way of letting the body know that its damaged so for instance if you have a damaged liver, the enzymes are released into your bloodstream for a doctor to tell its damaged. Now if you have healthy enzymes and are taking milk thistle for a long period of time, all its going to do is hide the fact that something is really wrong. Milk thistle has never been proven as an effective liver aid.

As for repairing damaged livers, milk thistle HAS been proven to NOT be beneficial in the treatment of Hepatitus.I can post the studies if anyone cares.

You should be about 250 pounds after a cycle like that

I have buddy who ran one bottle of sd only taking 500mg of milk thistle a day. After the cycle he thought his liver was inbad shape and went to the dr. He was about 2.5 wks away from total liver failure and maybe death. Don't f around with meth ph"s if your not taking proper support

Imp ur friend made two mistakes. If he was that close to liver failure he would have severe symptoms he was ignoring, his milk thistle dose was too low

Imo*

I think his mistake was cycling a whole bottle of SD, it's that simple.

I can understand cycling to your body's breaking point if you are a ****ing actual bodybuilder making money off of it. If you are 250 pounds lean and trying to add 10 more pounds of muscle that you need to win a show next year.

That describes no one on this forum. I mean **** i've been to real AAS forums where there's people deserve to cycle heavy and I feel like a scrawny piece of **** next to them, they make me ashamed for having cycled ><. This is a fun game, but unless you're at the top of it, there's no reason to cycle as if you're at the top of it. And if you do, you had better make some gains that bring you to the top of it.

I'm pissed at having run so many stupid PH cycles... I'm not trying to cycle them heavier now, just smarter... Bridging, using injectable Test to keep gains, embedding multiple oral cycles into longer test cycles, this is the evolution of what I've learned.

Originally Posted by hungryH

Holy crap dude, that is insane!
Thinking about it, they should work synergistically, seeing as how Superdrol is a non-aromatisable androstane, while anadrol is a progestin which will aromatize....

Damn though, that is definitely something to think about lol

Anadrol is not a progestin, anadrol is a DHT derivative. Anadrol also does not aromatize, hence its estrogen related side effects are of a "mysterious" nature, and the most popular theory is that it stimulates the estrogen receptor directly.

Yah anadrol ia pretty mysterious

Originally Posted by hungryH

What do you mean by pain? Your liver has no pain receptors.....
Also, I have ran m1t at 30mg for 3 weeks, followed by 40mg for 6 weeks using milk thistle. My liver values were in the high 60's.

Ummm, OK,

Well, run it again without any liver protection and allow us to view your results? This may remove any doubt from your mind, or it may make all of the believers look like fools, either one.

I agree with the op who is not bashing pp just saying that the studies can't be trusted if they are paid for by the manufactorer. Studies can be adjusted to essential meet anything the the financer wants. The only studies that are worth anything are third party. Even Alan aragon talks about that in his blog.

On the liver issue you only get one so I say spend the money and be safe.

I'm fairly convinced TUDCA is a liver support that's really worth a damn. Maybe phosphatidylcholine?

http://www.ergo-log.com/essentialeforte.html

http://ergo-log.com/udca.html


Clearly it IS possible to prevent damage

Originally Posted by hungryH

I did not mean to start such a sh*tstorm around here.

I no longer use any liver protectants anymore,nor will I ever again, and I can only use legal/oral ph/ds now(for legal reasons).

I have always gotten bloodwork after every cycle I have ever done.
My last cycle was xtren 240mg for 9 weeks, and m1t 30mg 6 weeks.
My ALT and AST were between 100-120(which is absolutely nothing to worry about).
I used no liver support supps at all.

These values only slightly higher than the bloodwork after cycles which I used liver protectants with, which had always been AX perfect cycle and himalaya liv.52(for my first 3 oral cycles-havoc/superdrol,high dose sd, high dose phera), and this is most likely simply because this was a more hepatoxic cycle.

Now, this Liver-Juice may say that it supports the liver up to 80% but do you know why it says that? First to get you to buy the product, and second because all it has EVER been proven to do is regulate enzyme levels and over LONG periods of time has shown effective in doing so. Now, do you know what that means? Absolutely nothing at all! That means that over a very long time, milk thistle will give you stable enzyme levels and thats about it. Enzymes are your livers way of letting the body know that its damaged so for instance if you have a damaged liver, the enzymes are released into your bloodstream for a doctor to tell its damaged. Now if you have healthy enzymes and are taking milk thistle for a long period of time, all its going to do is hide the fact that something is really wrong. Milk thistle has never been proven as an effective liver aid.

As for repairing damaged livers, milk thistle HAS been proven to NOT be beneficial in the treatment of Hepatitus.I can post the studies if anyone cares.

I didn't read everything you posted above but I am referencing another post and taking the first few lines from this one. You said that when you used support supplements, your values were 50-60 but when you did not use supports, your values were over 120? So, they were DOUBLED when you did not use supports?
Now, you say that this is no significant? I have no idea how you can possibly say that? Also, how old are you? do you not realize that older users may require more protection than 18-32 yr old users?

Your basing is way off here. I have NO IDEA if PP's product works better than basic thistle but I do know that protection is beneficial. You have made that clear between two of your post.

Originally Posted by UnrealMachine

I think his mistake was cycling a whole bottle of SD, it's that simple.

I can understand cycling to your body's breaking point if you are a ****ing actual bodybuilder making money off of it. If you are 250 pounds lean and trying to add 10 more pounds of muscle that you need to win a show next year.

That describes no one on this forum. I mean **** i've been to real AAS forums where there's people deserve to cycle heavy and I feel like a scrawny piece of **** next to them, they make me ashamed for having cycled ><. This is a fun game, but unless you're at the top of it, there's no reason to cycle as if you're at the top of it. And if you do, you had better make some gains that bring you to the top of it.

I'm pissed at having run so many stupid PH cycles... I'm not trying to cycle them heavier now, just smarter... Bridging, using injectable Test to keep gains, embedding multiple oral cycles into longer test cycles, this is the evolution of what I've learned.

Yeah, I have been on a forum or two where some elite bodybuilders go for info and the information that is thrown around there is much more "raw" so to speak than what is here or on many "health/fitness" sites. That doesn't make those sites better but the reality is, if we are not looking to compete at the top of our sport, why are we using steroids? The only reason is purely recreational, that's it. And, if it is purely recreation then there is NO NEED to cram ourselves full of dangerous drugs to impossible extents. Pushing the envelope is one thing; just look first, there might be a cliff on the other side.

Originally Posted by soontobbeast

liver support will prevent babies if used correctly?


just kidding

Yeah you didn't know? Liver support is the new birth control

Originally Posted by UnrealMachine

You should be about 250 pounds after a cycle like that

My stats displayed are at 3.2% bf.

I was 200lbs single digit bodyfat before I cut.
I have run far more advanced cycles than that.

Originally Posted by hardknock

I didn't read everything you posted above but I am referencing another post and taking the first few lines from this one. You said that when you used support supplements, your values were 50-60 but when you did not use supports, your values were over 120? So, they were DOUBLED when you did not use supports?
Now, you say that this is no significant? I have no idea how you can possibly say that? Also, how old are you? do you not realize that older users may require more protection than 18-32 yr old users?

Your basing is way off here. I have NO IDEA if PP's product works better than basic thistle but I do know that protection is beneficial. You have made that clear between two of your post.

You are a f*cking moron. Don't say "I didn't read most of it" and then quote me on what little you did read.

My liver values were around 100-120, after m1t, AND Tren at 240mg for 9 weeks which is quite liver toxic.

I'm out,this thread is pissing me off

Originally Posted by hungryH

My stats displayed are at 3.2% bf.

I was 200lbs single digit bodyfat before I cut.
I have run far more advanced cycles than that.

Do you have any pictures? i didn't even think 3% bodyfat was really obtainable. Were you cut down for a contest?

yeah 3% is an impossible feat imo, if one does attain 3% he can only mainttain it for a period of 48-72hours

Yeah he didn't hit 3 percent I'd gaurantee it. It takes so many drugs to get that low, also your leptin makes your appitite go insane so you feel like your starving cause your body thinks your going to literally die. And your body can't even get a boner. Lyle mcdonald talks about all the things these bodybuilders do to get down to 3%.

Troll thread.

I was a pro Windsurfur\Surfer and My body fat was 6% I was 17 then and they used a water tank measure... I was so lean but not jack.. I want to see what the hell 3.2 percent body fat looks like Please put up pics... But come on man For real??///

I am 40 wiht 12%..... If you need some pics of me windsurfing I can post them!!!

Despite anything that is said in this thread, I would rather fork out the additional cash to take possible preventative measures in hopes that they sustain healthier liver values, I dare to say it's a safe investment. Health over cost any day.

I second the request for pics at 3.2% BF. Lord knows I'd take a picture if I got that low.

Originally Posted by GMG760

I second the request for pics at 3.2% BF. Lord knows I'd take a picture if I got that low.

ROFL Pics or Neg HAHAHAHA