Oral Steroids & Liver Toxicity - And the best liver support supplement

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    Exclamation Oral Steroids & Liver Toxicity - And the best liver support supplement





    Dear AM,

    If you are considering the use of 17-aa oral steroids for a cycle, or are already on cycle using 17-aa oral steroids, you must read this article.

    Damaging the liver with oral steroids can cause serious health problems. No matter how big or ripped you may be, a faulty liver will drive your hard earned gains right down the toilet and send you strait to a hospital bed.

    In fact, by the time most steroid using athletes or bodybuilders reach the hospital they have already lost 20-30lbs of body weight and have become extremely sick and feeble. (1-7) Nobody wants this. In this article I'm going to show you how to screen for liver problems, watch for the visual warning signs and protect the liver the most effective way possible.

    What a lot of people don't know is that even legal steroids can stress the liver and cause serious problems. Legal steroids can be just as bad as illegal steroids such as Winstrol, Dianabol or even Anadrol. While most people are well informed about which illegal steroids cause liver damage, I'm going to talk about which legal steroids can cause damage. Whether you cycle legal or illegal steroids, the information you learn here today will probably save you a trip to the emergency room.

    Today you will learn -

    • How oral steroids impair liver function and damage the liver
    • Warning signs that your liver may be damaged
    • Which legal steroids pose the most risk and which are the safest
    • How to get an at home liver test for less than $5
    • How Liver Juice can reduce liver damage even from the harshest compounds

    Before I cover these topics, let's talk about which currently popular oral steroids are most liver toxic.



    Legal Oral Steroids
    Toxicity Ratings


    It's important to understand that not all "oral steroids" negatively affect the liver. For instance, DHEA, androstenediol and pregnenolone are "steroids" that can be taken orally, but none of them are liver toxic.

    What makes a steroid liver toxic is a modification to its structure known as a methylation in the 17th position. This is typically referred to as a "17 alpha alkylated" or "17-aa" oral steroid. This modification allows the steroid to pass the liver and avoid excretion, thus giving them higher potency than non-17-aa steroids. (1-7) 17-aa steroids also negatively affect the liver which I will explain later.

    Popular methylated (17-aa) legal oral steroids include -

    Superdrol clones -

    Superdrone

    Superdrol

    Beastdrol

    M-Drol

    Chemical name(s):
    2a,17a-dimethyl-5a-androst-3-one-17b-ol
    2a,17a-dimethyl-etiocholan-3-one-17b-ol

    17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 5



    Dimethazine clones -

    Dimethazine

    Dieselbolan v2.0

    Chemical Name(s):
    17beta-hydroxy 2alpha,17alpha-dimethyl 5alpha-androstan 3-one azine

    17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 5


    Halodrol clones -

    Turinabol

    Halodrol

    Helladrol

    H-Drol

    Chemical name(s):
    4-chloro-17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol

    17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 2



    Epistane clones -

    Epistane

    Epi-Strong

    Havoc

    M-14 E

    Chemical Name(s):
    2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-etioallocholan-17b-ol
    2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-5a-androstan-17b-ol

    17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 3


    Methyl 1,4-AD clones -

    M1,4AD

    M14-E

    Chemical Name(s):
    17a-methyl-1,4-androstadiene-3b,17b-diol
    17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol
    1,4-Methylandrostenedione

    17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 3



    DHEA clones -

    Dermacrine

    Methyl 1-D

    Chemical Name(s):
    Dehydroepiandrosterone
    3beta-Hydroxyandrost-5-Ene-17-One
    3-beta-hydroxy-etioallocholan-5-ene-17-one
    5-Androstene-3b-ol, 17-one

    Non 17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 0



    1-DHEA clones -

    1-T

    1-Androsterone

    Chemical Name(s):
    17a-methyl-1,4-androstadiene-3b,17b-diol
    17a-methyl-androst-1,4-diene-3b,17b-diol
    1,4-Methylandrostenedione

    Non 17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 0


    Epiandrosterone clones -

    Methyl Masterdrol

    Stano-Drol

    Chemical Name(s):
    3-beta-hydroxyetioallocholan-17-one (3b)
    5a-androst-3b-17-one (3b)
    3-epiandrosterone (3b)

    Non 17-aa steroid

    Toxicity rating (1-5): 0


    As you can see, Superdrone and Dimethazine are some of the most toxic legal oral steroids. They are "di-methylated" which means they have two methyl groups, as opposed to just one in the 17th position. (4-5) Although this makes them extremely potent oral compounds, it also makes them more liver toxic than the single methylated 17-aa legal steroids (or even the illegal oral steroids Winstrol, Dianabol, Anadrol, ect.).

    This is why its important to NOT stack 17-aa with other 17-aa compounds since oral steroids have a dose dependant toxicity value. In other words, the more total steroid you take, the more toxic it becomes to you liver.

    Most all non-17-aa oral steroids have virtually zero toxicity to the liver, which usually makes them a good stack with 17-aa orals.



    How do 17-aa oral steroids cause liver damage?


    Despite a lot of discussion on the forums about the "toxicity" of different oral steroids, most users are unaware of the mechanism or implications around these "toxic effects" (which is probably the reason why most users have yet to find an effective cure for the toxic effects).

    Let me shed some light on this ambiguous topic.

    17-aa steroids are toxic to the liver because they inhibit the excretory functions of the liver. (1-7)

    More specifically, the more "liver toxic" a 17-aa steroid is, the more it inhibits the production and flow of bile from the liver.

    Bile salts are known as the liver's "cleansing agents" because they act as "soaps" that carry away the toxins and flush them into the intestines for excretion. If the bile flow is restricted in the liver, then the liver cannot rid itself of toxins. When the liver loses its ability to excrete toxins, it creates a buildup of toxins throughout the entire body. (1-13)

    This condition is known as cholestasis [Kola-sta-sis]. By definition, cholestasis is a condition where the flow of bile cannot flow from the liver. (1) This is the most common liver condition developed from 17-aa steroids. (1-7)

    If a liver becomes cholestatic for too long, the condition can begin damaging liver cells by causing necrosis (premature death of liver cells) from excessive toxin build up in the liver. This can eventually lead to cirrhosis of the liver (development of fibrous scar tissue) when the liver attempts to regenerate the damaged liver cells. This leads to loss of liver function from the replacement of healthy liver cells with fibrous connective tissue. (2)

    Although cholestasis is reversible and generally not a lethal condition, it can lead to the more serious problems mentioned above if left untreated -- not to mention costly medical bills.

    To avoid serious health complications it's important to protect the liver before it becomes cholestatic or seriously damaged from prolonged cholestasis (which I will explain later).



    What are signs that my liver is damaged?


    When the liver has been damaged by oral steroids there are certain signs that may become obvious to the user.

    Here are some of the most common signs indicating you may have a serious liver issue. Warning signs usually appear in the following order, with the later signs being the most serious -

    • Reduced appetite
    • Nausea and fever
    • Excessive Itchiness
    • Yellow eyes or skin (jaundice)
    • Very dark urine (dark amber colored)
    • Bloody stools


    Waiting for all these signs to appear means you have waited too long. You want to take action BEFORE these signs appear. This is why I advise getting full lab values on liver function before, during and after any 17-aa oral steroid cycle. If performing lab tests for liver function, the following values are considered normal.


    Normal Values -

    Total bilirubin range: 0.3-1.7 mg/dl

    Alanine aminotransferase (ALT) range: 10-40 IU/L

    Aspartate aminotransferase (AST) range: 10-40 IU/L

    Alkaline phosphatase (ALP) range: 34-125 IU/L

    Gamma-glutamyl-transpeptidase (GGT) range: 7-32 IU/L


    Levels above these normal values doesn't necessarily mean you have liver damage. It is common for healthy weight training athletes or bodybuilders to be slightly outside of the "normal" ALT, AST and ALP values. Therefore these "Danger Values" have been established as more appropriate levels to indicate a serious liver toxicity issue. (1-7)


    Danger Values -

    Total bilirubin: 10 mg/dl or higher

    Alanine aminotransferase (ALT): 50 IU/L or higher

    Aspartate aminotransferase (AST): 50 IU/L or higher

    Alkaline phosphatase (ALP): 150 IU/L or higher

    Gamma-glutamyl-transpeptidase (GGT) range: 50 IU/L or higher

    NOTE: Historical research from 17-aa oral steroid induced liver toxicity suggests that lab values higher than the "Danger Values" indicate that you may be suffering from cholestasis (1-7) If your lab values are higher than the "Danger Values" listed above you should discontinue any current oral steroid use and seek medical treatment.

    If the above lab tests are not an option, it is possible to get an affordable at home test for bilirubin levels, which can help diagnose a liver damage from a 17-aa oral steroid. There are tests available, such as the TestMedica Liver Home Scan, which can be purchased online for less than $5 per test. Although these home based tests lack accuracy or true diagnosis ability, it can offer a valuable insight about the condition of the liver and is recommended for any steroid user not able to get lab tests done in a clinical setting.



    How can I protect my liver?


    To prevent cholestasis, the primary condition caused by oral steroid use, it is important to ensure there is ample hydrophilic bile acid available in the liver for the proper clearance of toxins. There are two reliable options for this.

    1. The first option is the drug known as Ursodiol - a.k.a. ursodeoxycholic acid. This naturally occurring bile acid is used for its ability to detoxify the liver by clearing out less hydrophilic bile acids and other toxins that cause a toxic build up, such as 17-aa oral steroids. (4,5)

    Ursodiol is typically prescribed to patients admitted to the hospital for steroid induced liver toxicity, but unfortunately, it is an expensive prescription drug, and not easily obtainable.

    Typical dose - 1000-1200mg/day before, during and after cycle

    2. The other option is a highly bio-available milk thistle supplement, such as Liver Juice.

    New research suggests that high doses of milk thistle can increase the liver's production of ursodeoxycholic acid - the same bile acid used in the drug Ursodiol. (8) The active component in milk thistle responsible for this is the flavone silybin. Liver Juice is standardized for 30% silybin and is delivered in a highly bio-available liquid form using Liqua-Vade technology.

    Liqua-Vade delivery technology makes Liver Juice absorb 8x better than other regular milk thistle supplements, and avoids intestinal upset typically associated with high doses of regular milk thistle powder. (14-23)

    Typical dose - 5mL twice daily before, during and after cycle. (Liver Juice)



    How does Liver Juice protect the liver?


    The milk thistle flavone silybin enhances clearance of toxins from the liver by increasing the production of healthy bile acids, such as ursodeoxycholic acid. Increasing production of this beneficial bile acid helps prevent the occurrence of cholestasis -- the primary liver condition caused by 17-aa oral steroids. (7-13)

    Silybin appears to have a unique ability to stimulate Cyp7a1 and Cyp3a enzymes in the liver. These enzymes drive the conversion of cholesterol to healthy bile acids. (8-10)



    How do I use Liver Juice?


    Using Live Juice is easy.

    Just follow the guidelines below -



    NOTE: For best results, Liver Juice should be used for 2 weeks prior to starting any cycle with a 17-aa oral steroid, during the cycle and for 2 weeks following the cycle. Liver Juice can be used continuously for any length of cycle without side-effects. Always verify liver health by checking liver values.




    How much does Liver Juice cost? Where do I buy it?


    A full 4 week supply of Liver Juice costs $19.95.

    To use Liver Juice at the full recommended dose before, during and after a 4 week cycle with a 17-aa steroid you would need two (2) bottles of Liver Juice.

    Remember, Liver Juice is a valuable liver protector for any type of 17-aa oral steroid, legal or non-legal. If you have questions about how to use Liver Juice during your cycle, just visit the Official Liver Juice Thread.

    Liver Juice is available exclusively at www.primordialperformance.com


    Questions about Liver Juice? Get answers in the Official Liver Juice Thread


    I'd like to thank you for reading this news release and supporting Primordial Performance!

    Yours in health & fitness,

    Eric Potratz
    Primordial Founder & President

    Questions?

    Phone - 1-503-841-6702
    Email - info@primordialperformance.com
    Visit - Nutritional Supplements and Fitness Supplements For Improved Body Contour and Sexual Prowess | Primordial Performance



    References -

    1. Androgenic/anabolic steroid-induced intrahepatic cholestasis: a review with four additional case reports.
    Gurakar A, et al.
    J Okla State Med Assoc. 1994 Sep;87 (9):399-404

    2. Androgenic/Anabolic Steroid-Induced Toxic Hepatitis
    Davor S, et al.
    J Clin Gastroenterol 2002;35(4):350-352

    3. Anabolic-Androgenic steroids and liver injury
    Magdalena et al.
    Liver International ISSN 1478-3223

    4. Severe Cholestasis and Renal Failure Associated with the Use of the Designer Steroid Superdrol (Methasteron): A Case Report and Literature Review
    John Nasr and Jawad Ahmad
    Digestive Diseases and Sciences (2007)

    5. Cholestatic Jaundice and IgA Nephropathy Induced by OTC Muscle Building Agent Superdrol.
    Beata Jasiurkowski MD, et al.
    The American Journal of Gastroenterology (2006) 101, 2659-2662;

    6. Anabolic steroids and cholestasis
    Nusinovici V.
    Med Chir Dig. 1974;3(3):167-71.

    7. Cholestasis due to anabolic steroids
    Horkż J, et al.
    Cesk Gastroenterol Vyz. 1973 Dec;27(8):548-50.

    8. Silymarin as a new hepatoprotective agent in experimental cholestasis: new possibilities for an ancient medication.
    Crocenzi FA, Roma MG.
    Curr Med Chem. 2006;13(9):1055-74. Review.

    9. Silibinin prevents cholestasis-associated retrieval of the bile salt export pump, Bsep, in isolated rat hepatocyte couplets: possible involvement of cAMP.
    Crocenzi FA, et al.
    Biochem Pharmacol. 2005 Apr 1;69(7):1113-20.

    10. Beneficial effects of silymarin on estrogen-induced cholestasis in the rat: a study in vivo and in isolated hepatocyte couplets.
    Crocenzi FA, et al.
    Hepatology. 2001 Aug;34(2):329-39.

    11. Tauro alpha-muricholate is as effective as tauro beta-muricholate and tauroursodeoxycholate in preventing taurochenodeoxycholate-induced liver damage in the rat.
    Kitani K, et al.
    Hepatology. 1994 Apr;19(4):1007-12.

    12. Tauro beta-muricholate is as effective as tauroursodeoxycholate in preventing taurochenodeoxycholate-induced liver damage in the rat.
    Kanai S, et al.
    Life Sci. 1990;47(26):2421-8.

    13. Ursodeoxycholate reduces ethinylestradiol glucuronidation in the rat: Role in prevention of estrogen-induced cholestasis.
    Enrique J et al.
    The Journal of Pharmacology and experimental therapeutics, 2003 Vol. 306, No. 1 279-286

    14. Self-emulsifying drug delivery systems: Strategy for improving oral delivery of poorly soluble drugs.
    Jing-ling et al.
    Current Drug Therapy, 2007 Vol. 2, No. 1

    15. Enhanced bioavailability of silymarin by self-microemulsifying drug delivery system.
    Wei Wu et al.
    European Journal of Pharmaceuticals and Biopharm. 63(3) (2006) 288-294

    16. Formulation and biopharmaceutical evaluation of silymarin of SMEDDS
    Woo et al.
    Arch Pharm Res Vol 30, No 1, 82-89, 2007

    17. Pharmacokinetics of silybin following oral administration of silipide in patients with extrahepatic biliary obstruction.
    Schandalik R. et al.
    Drugs Exp Clin Res. 1994;20(1):37-42.

    18. Pharmacokinetic studies with silymarin in human serum and bile.
    Lorenz D, et al.
    Methods Find Exp Clin Pharmacol. 1984 Oct;6(10):655-61.

    19. The solubility and bioequivalence of silymarin preparations
    Schulz HU, et al
    Arzneimittelforschung. 1995 Jan;45(1):61-4.

    20. [Preparation of silybin-phospholipid complex and its bioavailability in rats][Article in Chinese]
    Xiao YY, et al.
    Yao Xue Xue Bao. 2005 Jul;40(7):611-7.

    21. A review of the bioavailability and clinical efficacy of milk thistle phytosome: a silybin-phosphatidylcholine complex (Siliphos).
    Kidd P, et al.
    Altern Med Rev. 2005 Sep;10(3):193-203.

    22. Pharmacokinetic studies on IdB 1016, a silybin- phosphatidylcholine complex, in healthy human subjects.
    Barzaghi N, et al.
    Eur J Drug Metab Pharmacokinet. 1990 Oct-Dec;15(4):333-8.

    23. Silymarin: A review of pharmacological aspects and bioavailability enhancement approaches.
    Nitin Dixit et al.
    Indian J Pharmacol. 2007, Vol. 3 Issue 4, 172-179

  2. Registered User
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    I just ran a bottle myself...had high liver values and now getting bloodwork next wk to see where they are...stay tuned
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogz View Post
    I just ran a bottle myself...had high liver values and now getting bloodwork next wk to see where they are...stay tuned
    Sounds good. How long you run for?

    -Eric
    •   
       

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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Sounds good. How long you run for?

    -Eric
    Started on Feb 15th, 10ml ed, so about ~25 days total...I actually drop the dose to 5ml ed for the last few days since I will not get bloodwork til next week some time...
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogz View Post
    Started on Feb 15th, 10ml ed, so about ~25 days total...I actually drop the dose to 5ml ed for the last few days since I will not get bloodwork til next week some time...
    What was the cycle?

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    What was the cycle?

    -Eric
    Cycle was back in Nov/Dec, 5wk of SD/Phera, bridged at wk3.

    Even after pct my liver values were still elevated...I will post all my bloodwork docs to show before liver juice and after liver juice, hopefully sometime next week
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    is 17-HD considered in this topic as a legal steroid? Many (such as androgenic's review) suggests that 17-HD is not even considered a pro-hormone supplement since the ingredients are so suspect (natural i.e. sweet potato extract etc..) any suggestions? Since I like 17-hd as a pump up and it is reviewed as non-steroidal, would this product be considered toxic to the liver?
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    Solid product
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    But why the ALMOND FLAVOR!!!!!!
    Worm shot only way to go
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    Great thread and awesome product!
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    I'm not a big fan of milk thistle, I prefer R-alpha lipoic acid for liver protection..
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    PP,

    Are you unconcerned (relatively speaking) about high blood pressure from PH/DS? The price point on LiverJuice is really quite friendly compared to other all in one supps, but they tend to be a little more comprehensive (and many have quite a bit of blood work as well).
    Paging Dr. Banner. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by OnTheRoadTo View Post
    PP,

    Are you unconcerned (relatively speaking) about high blood pressure from PH/DS? The price point on LiverJuice is really quite friendly compared to other all in one supps, but they tend to be a little more comprehensive (and many have quite a bit of blood work as well).
    We are working on having bloodwork done for individuals running cycles while using our Liver Juice. This is not meant to be and all it one support supplement, I personally suggest adding in Hawthorne Berry Extract.
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    Fair enough - Still plenty cheap to add a few caps of that.
    Paging Dr. Banner. . .
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogz View Post
    Cycle was back in Nov/Dec, 5wk of SD/Phera, bridged at wk3.

    Even after pct my liver values were still elevated...I will post all my bloodwork docs to show before liver juice and after liver juice, hopefully sometime next week

    The problem is you will never know if the liver juice is what helped your liver enzyms to normalize. Your liver enzymes will be gradually lowering as time goes on. If your PCT ended in Dec. then your liver enzymes will be getting better from that point on. It takes a few months usually for them to normalize. Every month they should be getting lower.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bigchourico View Post
    I'm not a big fan of milk thistle, I prefer R-alpha lipoic acid for liver protection..

    That is good to add but not just that compound. Add NAC and SAM-e to along with Soy Licithin.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jofroxp View Post
    is 17-HD considered in this topic as a legal steroid? Many (such as androgenic's review) suggests that 17-HD is not even considered a pro-hormone supplement since the ingredients are so suspect (natural i.e. sweet potato extract etc..) any suggestions? Since I like 17-hd as a pump up and it is reviewed as non-steroidal, would this product be considered toxic to the liver?
    What is 17-HD?

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelo212 View Post
    The problem is you will never know if the liver juice is what helped your liver enzyms to normalize. Your liver enzymes will be gradually lowering as time goes on. If your PCT ended in Dec. then your liver enzymes will be getting better from that point on. It takes a few months usually for them to normalize. Every month they should be getting lower.
    False....my liver values have always been elevated (do to health reasons) and even without takin PH's or DS's for a few years....I have bloodwork to show all this and will post this up when I get the post liver juice blood work
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogz View Post
    False....my liver values have always been elevated (do to health reasons) and even without takin PH's or DS's for a few years....I have bloodwork to show all this and will post this up when I get the post liver juice blood work

    Mine are to due to health reasons. I been on milk thistle NAC SAM-e and ALA for years with not much of a difference. They will always fluctuate.
    I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. Ae you saying you have a base line blood values to work with and your going to take this supplement and see if it lowers them from what they are?
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    The problem with milk thistle is it is poorly absorbed. They never tell you this though the companies that sell it. The "phytosome" formula which is milk thistle extract bound to phosphatidyl choline is 8 to 10 more absorbable. You can do a quick research and see this for yourself. Milk thistle is not worth to take unless you buy this formula which can be purchased everywhere. Like I said, milk thistle is very poorly absorbed.
    Also, it is suggested not to take milk thistle on cycle. Itíll protect your liver, but itís also going to reduce the effectiveness of the entire cycle, by reducing androgen receptor transactivation and also by inhibiting the IGF-I signaling pathway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelo212 View Post
    Mine are to due to health reasons. I been on milk thistle NAC SAM-e and ALA for years with not much of a difference. They will always fluctuate.
    I'm not sure you understand what I'm saying. Ae you saying you have a base line blood values to work with and your going to take this supplement and see if it lowers them from what they are?
    Yes...I have bloodwork from last year and even thru out 2008 in which my liver values have been elevated ever since late 2007 and nothing has brought them down...mind you my last cycle before the one this past Nov and Dec of anything was back in early part of 2007.

    My recent cycle was 5wk of phera bridge with sd in wk3 back in Nov and Dec of 2009
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    Quote Originally Posted by bulldogz View Post
    Yes...I have bloodwork from last year and even thru out 2008 in which my liver values have been elevated ever since late 2007 and nothing has brought them down...mind you my last cycle before the one this past Nov and Dec of anything was back in early part of 2007.

    My recent cycle was 5wk of phera bridge with sd in wk3 back in Nov and Dec of 2009
    From what I saw of your bloodwork it looked like the Liver Juice was helping, until you started using the methylated blood pressure medication.
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    Will Liver Juice be a sufficient on cycle support or would we need to add something else as well?
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    Quote Originally Posted by maxxx88 View Post
    Will Liver Juice be a sufficient on cycle support or would we need to add something else as well?
    hawthorn berry extract for blood pressure support
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    Quote Originally Posted by angelo212 View Post
    Itíll protect your liver, but itís also going to reduce the effectiveness of the entire cycle, by reducing androgen receptor transactivation and also by inhibiting the IGF-I signaling pathway.
    This effect is specific to the prostate... its never been shown to happen in muscle... I'm almost tempted to write a full feature article about this to debunk this myth.

    -Eric
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    ^^^thats a great price.
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    Quote Originally Posted by flightposite View Post
    ^^^thats a great price.
    Indeed.
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    Anybody considering a cycle of SD or any methylated compound needs to read this post.

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    Would you recommend TUDCA with LJ?
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    Hey Eric, i see the ratings next to the popular steroids such as 5, 3, 0 etc. My question is what dosing is this based on? If halodrol is a "2" what about if i run it at 150mg a day?

    This is all very applicable to me... i'm about done with a 5 week SD/PP stint and running Liver Juice for 6-7 weeks before I start up Halodrol, but it's so weak I'm going to start at 100mg and work up from there, have been curious about the liver toxicity with Halodrol because some people need 100+mg to me it sounds like a lot of methyls
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    and about the toxity rate of TREN (x-tren)?!

    i'll run turinabol + tren very soon, and will be the turinabol stack
    =]
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    Quote Originally Posted by UnrealMachine View Post
    Hey Eric, i see the ratings next to the popular steroids such as 5, 3, 0 etc. My question is what dosing is this based on? If halodrol is a "2" what about if i run it at 150mg a day?

    This is all very applicable to me... i'm about done with a 5 week SD/PP stint and running Liver Juice for 6-7 weeks before I start up Halodrol, but it's so weak I'm going to start at 100mg and work up from there, have been curious about the liver toxicity with Halodrol because some people need 100+mg to me it sounds like a lot of methyls
    The rating is relative to the standard dose... which is around 100mg/day for halodrol in regular cap form.

    Anadrol is ran at 150-200mg/day for HIV patients for years... so I think you can get away just fine with a 6-7 week methyl cycle, especially if you are using the Liver Juice.

    -Eric
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    Quote Originally Posted by felost View Post
    and about the toxity rate of TREN (x-tren)?!

    i'll run turinabol + tren very soon, and will be the turinabol stack
    =]
    Since TREN is a progestin it will probably have a slightly higher tendency to cause cholestasis, so its rating is probably a 1 or 2.

    -Eric
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    Yall need to throw liver juice into a glass of milk. I hear it tastes like eggnog.

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    Don't miss out on our HUGE PH D/C sale!!!

    It's the perfect time to try one of our PH stacks and use our Liver Juice for support! You can't beat 30% off these stacks!!

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