Gains With Nolva On Cycle

supersoldier

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On a cycle where gyno is a risk (test or 4AD + one or 2 others), how much would using nolva at 10-20mg a day affect your gains. This would be purely for gyno prevention, as I am not concerned with the overall bloat in this case. I understand why an AI would restrict gains somewhat, but since nolva is an SERM it should only block estrogen at some receptors, particularly breast tissue, and not lower overall estrogen/estradiol. Any thoughts? :)
 
Skye

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Someone once said that it reduces gains by about 10 to 15 % (think it was in a E-Book) but I have never seen anything else to back that up.
 
supersoldier

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Someone once said that it reduces gains by about 10 to 15 % (think it was in a E-Book) but I have never seen anything else to back that up.
I've always heard that it would reduce gains but I don't see any reason why it would.
 
Skye

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Estorgen does help you grow quite a bit so maybe that is why. Or maybe like so many other "facts" it never did. I really don't know.

I am going to use it regardles, its cheap and effective. gyno is not worth the differnce in gains.
 
supersoldier

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But if it doesn't lower total estrogen levels, and just blocks certain receptors then there shouldn't be a problem.
 

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You guys are way ahead of me.
But I thought that it went like this:
"Zero estrogen is not desirable. Some estrogen is necessary, but too much can cause complications such as gynocomastia (man boobies) and water retention to name a few."
I guess you're looking for the middle ground, ie where you have estrogen to help growth but not cause gyno.
 
Skye

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True all that but the estorgen is still rendered useless if it can't bind to anything. and it is not just the breast tissue that is afected. Also Nolvadex does far more then just block estorgen, that is why we can use it as a PCT drug. What else can it afect?
 

maggmaster

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Nolvadex really just binds to estrogen in particular receptor sites. I see no reason chemically that it would reduce gains other than possibly lowering some water retention which in itself can be anabolic( the intercellular water retention can lead to greater nutrient uptake)
 
Dwight Schrute

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It won't reduce gains much at all since plasma estrone levels are not reduced. It actually increased in some. Also Tamoxifen can be a AVP agonist so if can actually increase water retention in some. IF you want to reduce water retention, use a low dose AI and it shouldn't inhibit gains much at all. Your basically keep estrogne levels within normal ranges. Also watch your carb and sodium intake as both of these can increase aldosterone (along with estrogen) which is your main cause of water retention.
 
supersoldier

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So if you're worried about gyno, it is ALMOST imossible, or very unlikely that you will develop gyno while running nolva along with (ie.) test, dbol, m1T. And using nolva while on will not hinder your gains, or hurt your recovery with nolva for PCT. So what's the downside? Why doesn't everybody use it while on? It's become very cheap thanks to Custom.
 
Dwight Schrute

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There isn't much downside but it can increase water retention in some. Other than that I tend not to use anything that I don't need but always have it on hand just in case. Given that I very sensitive to estrogen I do use it with any aromatizing hormone.
 

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Good thread :)
Since the active life of Nolva is 5-7 days, is a daily dose overdoing it?
Wouldn't 10-20mg EOD or E3D be enough to combat estrogen?
 
Skye

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Good thread :)
Since the active life of Nolva is 5-7 days, is a daily dose overdoing it?
Wouldn't 10-20mg EOD or E3D be enough to combat estrogen?
Yup, if you have pills I would take daily. If it is the shitty tasting liquid then 40mg every 3 days is fine
 
Skye

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Study on the Effects of Tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 Levels (Posted byFContact on MM)

Original Post http://www.massmonsterz.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=26907
Study on the Effects of Tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 Levels
Effect of tamoxifen on GH and IGF-1 serum level in stage I-II breast cancer patients.

Mandala M, Moro C, Ferretti G, Calabro MG, Nole F, Rocca A, Munzone E, Castro A, Curigliano G.

Division of Medical Oncology, European Institute of Oncology, Via Ripamonti 435, 20141-Milan, Italy. [email protected]

OBJECTIVE: Tamoxifen suppresses insulin-like growth factor-1 (IGF-1) plasma levels in early and advanced breast cancer patients. Relationships between tamoxifen (GH) and IGF-1 are complex and not completely described yet. The present investigation was performed to evaluate the effect of acute and chronic tamoxifen administration on GH response to growth hormone-releasing hormone (GHRH), as well as on IGF-1 serum levels. MATERIALS AND METHODS: Evaluation of GH after administration of GHRH was performed (a) at baseline, (b) 3 hours after 20 mg oral administration of tamoxifen and (c) after 12 weeks of 20 mg a day oral tamoxifen treatment, in fifteen postmenopausal stage I-II breast cancer patients. IGF-I was measured at baseline and after chronic tamoxifen administration. RESULTS: The GH response to GHRH was significantly reduced after 12 weeks of tamoxifen 10 mg administered twice a day orally (mean peak 3.2 +/- 0.2 micrograms/l, mean AUC 261.3 +/- 18.2 micrograms/minute p < 0.01 versus basal AUC). A concomitant significant reduction of IGF-1 was observed after 3 months of tamoxifen treatment. Basal pretreatment levels of 113.2 +/- 15.5 micrograms/l were suppressed to 70 +/- 7.9 micrograms/l (p < 0.01). CONCLUSION: Our study confirm the inhibitory effect of tamoxifen on IGF-I and suggested, as shown in previous in vitro data, that its suppression could be directly related to GH reduction in response to GHRH stimulation.
 

sifu

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I only use the liquid. But I use it everydaY, especially if gyno is starting to develop.
 
Dwight Schrute

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Seems people are misinterpretting studies again (this doesn't mean you Skye). Those levels of GH and IGF-1 would have very little effects on gains anway since its not those that utilized for hypertrophy. Growth is associate more with MGF (localized skeletal muscle IGF-1). Also the study was done on breast cancer patients who have elevated estrogen levels. When estrogen levels are lowered (which happens with women from Nolva) GH and IGF-1 will follow. This effect wouldn't have much effect hardly at all in men. You also have to remember that all andogens raise IGF-1 significantly so there is really nothing to worry about.
 
lifted

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Yup, if you have pills I would take daily. If it is the shitty tasting liquid then 40mg every 3 days is fine
What is this supossed to mean? I don't think the pills are different from the liquid regarding half-lives....
 

enzyme

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I don't think he was referring to the dosage form, but rather the taste.

Either way, if the half-life is that long, wouldn't say 20mg EOD be enough to give you
protection??
 
Skye

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I don't think he was referring to the dosage form, but rather the taste.

Either way, if the half-life is that long, wouldn't say 20mg EOD be enough to give you
protection??
exactly
yes eod is fine, even e3rdd will work.
 
TheUnlikelyToad

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How bout this though:

Tamoxifen reduces serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I).

Pollak MN, Huynh HT, Lefebvre SP.

McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Antiestrogens are widely used in the management of hormonally responsive breast cancer in both adjuvant and palliative settings, and are currently being evaluated as chemopreventive agents. The classical mechanism of action of these drugs involves inhibition of estrogen-stimulated neoplastic cell proliferation by blockade of estrogen receptors present on breast cancer cells. This paper reviews recent clinical and laboratory data that suggest that the commonly used antiestrogen tamoxifen also acts to reduce serum IGF-I levels. Estrogens appear to play a permissive role in growth hormone (GH) release by the pituitary gland and GH is known to stimulate IGF-I expression by hepatocytes. It is therefore possible that blockade of estrogen receptors in the hypothalamic-pituitary axis by tamoxifen interferes with GH release, leading to reduced hepatic IGF-I expression. In view of results suggesting that IGF-I is a more potent mitogen than estradiol for breast cancer cells and data demonstrating a positive correlation between estrogen receptor level and IGF-I receptor level of breast cancer cells, the IGF-I lowering effect of tamoxifen may contribute to the cytostatic activity of the drug. The interrelationships between steroid hormone physiology and IGF-I physiology may have relevance to a variety of commonly used treatments for hormonally responsive cancers.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 1421427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




Selective estrogen receptor modulators inhibit the effects of insulin-like growth factors in hyperparathyroidism.

Wong C, Lai T, Hilly JM, Stewart CE, Farndon JR.

Level 7, Division of Surgery, Bristol Royal Infirmary, Bristol BS2 8HW, UK.

BACKGROUND: Primary hyperparathyroidism (HPT) predominantly affects perimenopausal women, leading to speculations that an estrogen imbalance may be liable. We have previously demonstrated the importance of the insulin-like growth factor (IGF) axis in HPT. Because the antiestrogen tamoxifen has been shown to modulate the IGF axis, we examined the interactions of selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) and IGF in HPT. METHODS; Estrogen receptors were evaluated by Western immunoligand blotting. Sixteen parathyroid glands from 19 patients were included. After adhesion, the cells were treated with IGF (I or II) +/- estrogen +/- SERMs (tamoxifen, ICI 182,780) for 96 hours in serum-free media. Proliferation was assessed by measuring tritiated thymidine incorporation. RESULTS: Both primary and secondary HPT express estrogen receptors alpha and beta. Primary and secondary HPT had comparable responses to SERMs, they were analyzed together. Compared with control (100%), IGFs (I and II) induced a significant increase in DNA synthesis. Estradiol at 10(-8) and 10(-7) mol/L (physiologic range) had no significant effects on IGF (I and II, P >.05). Both tamoxifen and ICI 182,780 inhibited basal DNA synthesis (P <.05) and abolished the effects of both IGF I and II (P <.05). CONCLUSIONS: SERMs are capable of reducing basal and IGF-stimulated DNA synthesis. This reduction in proliferation has implications for cancer biology and therapeutic potential for SERMs in HPT.

PMID: 12490847 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
 
Dwight Schrute

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How bout this though:

Tamoxifen reduces serum insulin-like growth factor I (IGF-I).

Pollak MN, Huynh HT, Lefebvre SP.

McGill University, Montreal, Quebec, Canada.

Antiestrogens are widely used in the management of hormonally responsive breast cancer in both adjuvant and palliative settings, and are currently being evaluated as chemopreventive agents. The classical mechanism of action of these drugs involves inhibition of estrogen-stimulated neoplastic cell proliferation by blockade of estrogen receptors present on breast cancer cells. This paper reviews recent clinical and laboratory data that suggest that the commonly used antiestrogen tamoxifen also acts to reduce serum IGF-I levels. Estrogens appear to play a permissive role in growth hormone (GH) release by the pituitary gland and GH is known to stimulate IGF-I expression by hepatocytes. It is therefore possible that blockade of estrogen receptors in the hypothalamic-pituitary axis by tamoxifen interferes with GH release, leading to reduced hepatic IGF-I expression. In view of results suggesting that IGF-I is a more potent mitogen than estradiol for breast cancer cells and data demonstrating a positive correlation between estrogen receptor level and IGF-I receptor level of breast cancer cells, the IGF-I lowering effect of tamoxifen may contribute to the cytostatic activity of the drug. The interrelationships between steroid hormone physiology and IGF-I physiology may have relevance to a variety of commonly used treatments for hormonally responsive cancers.

Publication Types:
Review
Review, Tutorial

PMID: 1421427 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]




Selective estrogen receptor modulators inhibit the effects of insulin-like growth factors in hyperparathyroidism.

Wong C, Lai T, Hilly JM, Stewart CE, Farndon JR.

Level 7, Division of Surgery, Bristol Royal Infirmary, Bristol BS2 8HW, UK.

BACKGROUND: Primary hyperparathyroidism (HPT) predominantly affects perimenopausal women, leading to speculations that an estrogen imbalance may be liable. We have previously demonstrated the importance of the insulin-like growth factor (IGF) axis in HPT. Because the antiestrogen tamoxifen has been shown to modulate the IGF axis, we examined the interactions of selective estrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) and IGF in HPT. METHODS; Estrogen receptors were evaluated by Western immunoligand blotting. Sixteen parathyroid glands from 19 patients were included. After adhesion, the cells were treated with IGF (I or II) +/- estrogen +/- SERMs (tamoxifen, ICI 182,780) for 96 hours in serum-free media. Proliferation was assessed by measuring tritiated thymidine incorporation. RESULTS: Both primary and secondary HPT express estrogen receptors alpha and beta. Primary and secondary HPT had comparable responses to SERMs, they were analyzed together. Compared with control (100%), IGFs (I and II) induced a significant increase in DNA synthesis. Estradiol at 10(-8) and 10(-7) mol/L (physiologic range) had no significant effects on IGF (I and II, P >.05). Both tamoxifen and ICI 182,780 inhibited basal DNA synthesis (P <.05) and abolished the effects of both IGF I and II (P <.05). CONCLUSIONS: SERMs are capable of reducing basal and IGF-stimulated DNA synthesis. This reduction in proliferation has implications for cancer biology and therapeutic potential for SERMs in HPT.

PMID: 12490847 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]
As I said before

"Also the study was done on breast cancer patients who have elevated estrogen levels. When estrogen levels are lowered (which happens with women from Nolva) GH and IGF-1 will follow. This effect wouldn't have much effect hardly at all in men. You also have to remember that all andogens raise IGF-1 significantly so there is really nothing to worry about."

THe same applies here because they are ALL done on women. Lower estrogen in women and you lower GH and IGF-1. Tamoxifen doesn't lower estrogen in men, its just selectively anti-estrogenic at the pituatary and hypothalamus. Estrone levels generally remain the same and often sometimes increase in men.
 

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