If i have early occurance of gyno what can i do?

[sh0kka]

what can i take to make it go down so you cant really tell? nolva? vitamin e?

 

[custom]

Is this something other than puberty induced? Are they itchy, or just kind of fat?

If not stop taking the androgens and get some nolva and start using 40mg per day.

 

[surferdude26]

yep, nolva at 40mg a day should do the trick. Hate to tell you this, but should've had the "oh ****" meds on hand just in case stuff like this happens. Hope it works man.

 

[jjjd]

i'm really curious about andractim. from what i have read it is not available in the US, and is a topical DHT type of gel. it is used for gyno in some other countries.

also, as a non-approved drug from a foreign source, i wonder whether it would fall under the importation exception with prior authorization from the fda and/or dea?

otoh, since it is DHT (essentially) i am assuming the underlying substance is schedule III, and thus probably not.

whatever. appears to be an interesting treatment for gyno.


if it really works, it might be cheaper to fly to a country where it is legal, have a vacation, and get andractim treatment vs. paying for gyno surgery.

assuming this stuff works.

here's an abstract...

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11512095&dopt=Abstract

noted that this gyno was induced through antiretroviral therapy, not AAS.

 

[witchdawg7]

Just a friendly word of advice:
If this was because of PH's or AS respect your body and listen to what it is telling you. Stop taking whatever you are using. You are 19, wait another 2 or 3 years train hard and natural, let your body develop during that time then go back to the PH/AS route.

 

[-2z-]

Just a friendly word of advice:
If this was because of PH's or AS respect your body and listen to what it is telling you. Stop taking whatever you are using. You are 19, wait another 2 or 3 years train hard and natural, let your body develop during that time then go back to the PH/AS route.

A-men.

 

[sh0kka]

also which nolva do you recommend that i buy? theres 2 formulas a old one and a new one, do you have any links?

you guys are the best! thanks for all your help btw.

 

[Matthew D]

Again.. you are ONLY 19.. train natural it will help you more in the long run..

 

[hamper19]

what ph's did you take anyway?....

 

[hamper19]

also which nolva do you recommend that i buy? theres 2 formulas a old one and a new one, do you have any links?

you guys are the best! thanks for all your help btw.

formula's?

you talking liquid nolva? which brand?

 

[sh0kka]

there was a link on this board, the new formula was 24 bucks or so.

i used m1t for about 2.5 weeks.

so any link to buy nolva to stop or deter the gyno if it actually is forming?

 

[drei]

Again.. you are ONLY 19.. train natural it will help you more in the long run..

Youngn's ignoring protocol again! Leave the PH/PS/AAS sh*t alone! Dayum!

 

[stryder]

If you're referring to cutom's go with either one, but make sure you get you're parents permission...I'M BEING SERIOUS!

 

[DobermanXXL]

andractim won't work for real gyno, I tried it.

I had puberty gyno, as did my brother, nothing serious just puffy nipples. I tried everything, but once the tissue has grown, surgery is the only option and eventually that is what I did. Luckily my brothers went away on its own. The surgery is quick and easy, and you can't tell i ever had it.

nolvadex will help reverse newly formed gyno.. but after the tissue actually forms, you're through.

 

[Cuffs]

If you're referring to cutom's go with either one, but make sure you get you're parents permission...I'M BEING SERIOUS!

LOL...parents permission. Too funny. "Mom, can I get some Nolva for my birthday? I'll be extra good, and won't complain when I have to do my chores."

 

[morfiend]

there was a link on this board, the new formula was 24 bucks or so.

i used m1t for about 2.5 weeks.

so any link to buy nolva to stop or deter the gyno if it actually is forming?

theres lots of links all over the board.. i think you're talking about ctdre or something along those lines. the ghetto version has to be shaken up before use, but it's $10 cheaper. hope this is what you meant.

 

[Neuromancer]

I had puberty gyno, as did my brother, nothing serious just puffy nipples. I tried everything, but once the tissue has grown, surgery is the only option and eventually that is what I did. Luckily my brothers went away on its own. The surgery is quick and easy, and you can't tell i ever had it.

nolvadex will help reverse newly formed gyno.. but after the tissue actually forms, you're through.

Actually thats not entirely true...check this out






British Medical Journal August 9, 2003 v327 i7410 p301(2)

Endocrine treatment of physiological gynaecomastia: tamoxifen seems to be effective. (Editorials) Khan, Hamed N; Blamey, RW​

Full Text: COPYRIGHT 2003 British Medical Association

Gynecomastia is a common condition among normal healthy men of varying ages. Tenderness may be one of its symptoms, but the usual reason for presentation is that young men don't like having breasts and older men are worried about the possibility of cancer. Diagnosis is primarily by clinical examination and where necessary ultrasound and needle biopsy. Traditional methods of management of gynaecomastia have included simple analgesia for pain, and surgery. The most common reason for the patient to request surgery is cosmetic. However, although surgery in experienced hands is safe and effective, with minimal stay in hospital, the cosmetic results cannot always be guaranteed--noticeable scars, permanent pigment changes in the breast area, and mismatched breasts or nipples have been reported (1) An uncommon but particularly ugly effect is tether of the subareolar area to the chest wall. These possible complications are balanced by the immediate therapeutic effect of surgery on gynaecomastia, especially in adolescents, for whom any form of prolonged treatment may not be appropriate.

At our hospital we recognise two forms of gynaecomastia; "lump" and "fatty" types. The former is a single firm retro-areolar lump, often tender, whereas the latter is a diffuse fatty lesion in the whole breast area. Adolescents usually have the lump form, and elderly people often have the fatty type.

Most cases of gynaecomastia have no known cause, especially in patients presenting in adolescence. Gynaecomastia secondary to underlying pathologies such as testicular tumours (very rare), liver dysfunction, or to a broad spectrum of drugs (notably oestrogens, cimetidine, and spironolactone) tends to be bilateral (by no means always) and is of the more diffuse fatty type. (2)

Primary breast cancer, although rare, is an important differential diagnosis. It usually presents as a lump--not centrally placed--and in male patients often shows skin tether. Ultrasound examination and core biopsies confirm the diagnosis. (3)

An altered ratio between serum free oestradiol (which stimulates mammary epithelium) and testosterone (which inhibits it) is believed to underlie the pathophysiology of physiological gynaecomastia (2) Antioestrogens such as tamoxifen have therefore been suggested in the non-surgical treatment of this condition. Other suggested endocrine treatments have included clomiphene (4) and danazol, (5) both given for one to three months. Clomiphene is a non-steroidal agent with a weak oestrogenic activity. It acts on the hypothalamic-pituitary axis to increase gonadotrophin releasing hormone and therefore luteinising hormone releasing hormone and follicle stimulating hormone release. Its efficacy as a satisfactory medical treatment for gynaecomastia has not been proved. Danazol inhibits the production of oestrogen by suppressing the pituitary-ovarian axis due to the inhibition of the output of both follicle stimulating hormone and luteinising hormone from the pituitary gland. It also has androgenic side effects. It has proved effective in the management of gynaecomastia compared with placebo, (5) but adverse effects such as weight gain limit its application in general use.

The use of tamoxifen for gynaecomastia has been studied previously in several centres. The table shows the various published studies on the use and efficacy of tamoxifen for physiological gynaecomastia in the English literature. (6-9) Only two of these studies (6 9) have more than 10 patients and both showed resolution of lump and pain in 80% of cases. A recent study from our own unit in 36 cases confirms this figure (83% resolution of lump) (10) Ting et al also found tamoxifen to be more efficacious than danazol. (6) Importantly only minor and reversible side effects were reported. This confirms findings that tamoxifen used in male breast cancer appears to have no serious side effects. (11) Tamoxifen appears to be successful, safe, and avoids operation and on present evidence should be regarded as the first line treatment of gynecomastia.
Previous studies of tamoxifen on physiological gynaecomastia Tamoxifen dose

Tamoxifen
{dose-daily in mg} [Duration in months] -Total # of patients-
No of Successfull treatments to total patients #/#
(Percentage of Success)

Ting (6) -- {20} [3] -23- Lump: 18/23 (78)
Pain: 19/23 (82)

Parker (7) -- {10} [2] -10- Lump: 7/10 (70)
Pain: 4/4 (100)

McDermott (8) -- {20} [2-4] -6- Lump: 3/6 (50)
Pain: 5/8 (83)

Alagaratnam (9) -- {40} [2] -61- Lump: 49/61 (80)
Pain: 49/61 (80)

Hamed N Khan clinical research fellow

RW Blarney emeritus professor of surgery

Nottingham City Hospital, Nottingham NG5 1PB

Competing interests: None declared.

(1) McGrath MH, Mukerji S. Plastic surgery and the teenage patient. J Pediatr Adolesc Gynecol 2000;13 :105-18.

(2) Carlson HE. Gynecomastia. N Engl J Med 1980;303:795-9.

(3) Yang WT, Whitman GJ, Yuen EH, Tse GM, Stelling CB. Sonographic features of primary breast cancer in men. Am J Roentgenol 2001;176:413-6.

(4) Plourde PV, Kulin HE, Santner SJ. Clomiphene in the treatment of adolescent gynecomastia. Clinical and endocrine studies. Am J Dis Child 1983;137:1080-2.

(5) Jones DJ, Holt SD, Surtees P, Davison DJ, Coptcoat MJ. A comparison of danazol and placebo in the treatment of adult idiopathic gynecomastia: results of a prospective study in 55 patients. Ann R Coil Surg Engl 1990;72:296-8.

(6) Ting AC, Chow LW, Leung YF. Comparison of tamoxifen with danazol in the management of idiopathic gynecomastia. Am Surg 2000;66:38-40.

(7) Parker LN, Gray DR, Lai MK, Levin ER. Treatment of gynecomastia with tamoxifen: a double-blind crossover study. Metabolism. 1986;35:705-8.

(8) McDermott MT, Hofeldt FD, Kidd GS. Tamoxifen therapy for painful idiopathic gynecomastia. South Med J 1990;83:1283-5.

(9) Alagaratnam TE. Idiopathic gynecomastia treated with tamoxifen: a preliminary report. Clin Ther 1987;9:483-7.

(10) Khan HN, Rampaul R, Blamey RW. The use of tamoxifen for gynaecomastia at Nottingham Breast Unit. Br J Surg 2003; 90(s1):100.

(11) Ribeiro G, Swindell R. Adjuvant tamoxifen for male breast cancer (MBC). Br J Cancer 1992;65:252-4.



Document Number: A106865067

 

[DobermanXXL]

I don't care what that internet source has to say, when the tissue grows into your chest, and is there for awhile it is yours to keep. Tamoxifen will only be successful if you use it at very very early signs like slight itching/pain in the nipples. You cant pick up some Nolvadex and use it a few years or even months after noticing your gyno and expect the tissue to dissapear. That is why gyno surgery exists.

 

[Sheesh]

I don't care what that internet source has to say

LMAO!!! Hahahahahahahahahaha

Sorry, I just find it funny that one of the most highly respected peer-reviewed medical journals in the world is now being passed off as just some "internet source".

 

[hamper19]

I think its closing time

h19

 

[Neuromancer]

I don't care what that internet source has to say, when the tissue grows into your chest, and is there for awhile it is yours to keep. Tamoxifen will only be successful if you use it at very very early signs like slight itching/pain in the nipples. You cant pick up some Nolvadex and use it a few years or even months after noticing your gyno and expect the tissue to dissapear. That is why gyno surgery exists.

Did you not even read the study...GEEZUS!

Only two of these studies (6 9) have more than 10 patients and both showed resolution of lump and pain in 80% of cases. A recent study from our own unit in 36 cases confirms this figure (83% resolution of lump)

Tamoxifen appears to be successful, safe, and avoids operation and on present evidence should be regarded as the first line treatment of gynecomastia.

Some peoples kids...

 

[DobermanXXL]

right, the first line treatment I don't disagree but once it's settled it ain't goin anywhere. its definitely worth a try since it just occurred.. good luck.

 

[Neuromancer]

That very well could be true, but since this specific study didnt specify, when I get a chance, I am going to try to find studies about the longevity of the lump and its effect on the resolution of the lump...but as of now I have yet to see any such indications in a study. I will post it if I find anything

 

[ps24eva]

ph's stunt growth.

males grow until 23-25.


congrats to stunting your growth. Especially with gyno which means FOR SURE that you've permanently stunted your growth. Thats what estrogen does.

 

[Neuromancer]

Not tamoxifen, but very interesting just the same. This does speak of resolution of lump thats existed in men for more than just months.



[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=+1]Treatment of gynaecomastia with raloxifene.[/size][/font][font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]24 September 2003[/size][/font]

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=-2]Ariel S¨¢nchez,
Director
Centro de Endocrinolog¨ªa, San Lorenzo 876, (2000) Rosario, SF, Argentina

Send response to journal:
Re: Treatment of gynaecomastia with raloxifene.


Email Ariel S¨¢nchez
[/size][/font]

[font=verdana,arial,helvetica,sans-serif][size=-1]

Sir, We read with interest the Editorial on the treatment of gynaecomastia by Khan & Blamey.1 They review the experience of several centres, including their own, with the use of tamoxifen. We would like to comment on our experience with another drug, raloxifene.

Selective oestrogen receptor modulators (SERMs) are a relatively new family of drugs designed to act as oestrogens on some, but not all, tissues.2 Tamoxifen is a first-generation SERM. Raloxifene, a second-generation SERM, has been extensively studied on postmenopausal women, and is indicated for the treatment of postmenopausal osteoporosis.3 It is an alternative to oestrogen replacement therapy in women with a history of breast cancer.4, 5 Its anti-proliferative effect on mammary tissue is such that prolonged use reduces the risk of breast cancer among osteoporotic women.6

In a recent placebo-controlled short-term trial, the drug was administered to 34 healthy males (mean age, 48 years) at the dose of 60 mg/day for one month; no subject developed gynaecomastia. Besides, serum testosterone increased 20%, and serum estradiol decreased slightly.7

We decided to evaluate the effect of raloxifene in a series of patients with gynaecomastia. Twelve patients aged 18-84 years were treated. Breast enlargement was unilateral in 5 cases; its duration ranged from a few weeks (7 cases) to several years (5 cases). Four patients were hypogonadal by clinical criteria, and had low serum testosterone. In two patients there was a possible drug effect (prasterone in one, ranitidine in the other). The size of breast tissue ranged between 1.5 and 6.0 cm. All patients had normal testes by palpation, and normal serum levels of estradiol, LH, FSH, prolactin, and alpha-hCG. Liver function tests and serum creatinine also were normal. The dose of raloxifene was 60 mg every other day in 4 elderly patients (age 70 years or more), and 60 mg daily in the remaining; the medication was given for 2-12 months. Hypogonadal patients received, in addition, i.m. injections of testosterone enanthate, 100 mg twice a month.

Raloxifene was well tolerated; only one young patient reported a slight decrease in sexual potency. No subject complained of hot flushes; there were no episodes of thrombophlebitis during follow-up. The analgesic effect of treatment was fast (2-4 weeks) and sustained among 9 patients with pain and tenderness. The size of the gynaecomastia was evaluated monthly by means of a caliper (all patients), and ultrasonography (7 patients). All patients responded: there was an average reduction in size of 61% (range: 34-100%); in 2 patients gynaecomastia disappeared. Six of 8 eugonadal patients (75%) had a reduction in the size of breast tissue of at least 50% (average, 73%). Among hypogonadal patients (all of them followed with ultrasonography) gynaecomastia disappeared in one, and size reduction in the remaining subjects ranged between 46 and 67% (this is particularly noteworthy, since testosterone replacement not infrequently causes or aggravates gynaecomastia due to local aromatization to oestrogens by mammary tissue). Maximal effect was observed during the first 2 months of treatment.

This open, observational study suggests that raloxifene may be a safe, well tolerated and effective therapeutic alternative for drug-induced or idiopathic gynaecomastia in men of all ages.

Zulema Man, MD.
TIEMPO, Buenos Aires, Argentina

Ariel S¨¢nchez, MD, PhD;
Hugo Carretto, MD;
Ricardo Parma, MD.
Centro de Endocrinolog¨ªa, Rosario, Argentina

References

1. Khan HN, Blamey RW. Endocrine treatment of physiological gynaecomastia. Br Med J 2003;327:301-2.

2. Compston JE. Selective oestrogen receptor modulators: potential therapeutic implications. Clin Endocrinol 1998;48:389-91.

3. Agnusdei D, Iori N. Raloxifene: results from the MORE study. J Musculoskel Neuron Interact 2000;1:127-32.

4. Cummings SR, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Grady D, Powles TJ, Cauley JA, Norton L, Nickelsen T, Bjarnasson NH, Morrow M, Lippman ME, Black D, Glusman JE, Costa A, Jordan VC. The effect of raloxifene on risk of breast cancer in postmenopausal women. J Am Med Ass 1999;281:2189-97.

5. Mincey BA, Morahan TJ, Perez EA. Prevention and treatment of osteoporosis in women with breast cancer. Mayo Clin Proc 2000;75:821-9.

6. Cauley JA, Norton L, Lippman ME, Eckert S, Krueger KA, Purdie DW, Farrerons J, Karasik A, Mellstrom D, Ng KW, Stepan JJ, Powles TJ, Morrow M, Costa A, Silfen SL, Walls EL, Schmitt H, Muchmore DM, Jordan VC. Continued breast cancer risk reduction in postmenopausal women treated with raloxifene: 4-year results from the MORE trial. Breast Cancer Res Treatment 2001;65:125-34.

7. Uebelhart B, Bonjour JP, Draper MW, Pavo I, Basson R, Rizzoli R. Effects of selective estrogen receptor modulator raloxifene on the pituitary gonadal axis in healthy males (Abstract). J Bone Miner Res 2000;15(Suppl 1):S453. Competing interests: None declared[/size][/font]

 

[jjjd]

i'm still interested in the use of topical DHT e.g. Andractim.

any of the gurus comment on this?

and IF topical DHT works, then i wonder if a topical DHT prohormone (such as 5-aa or m-5aa) would work.

 

[jjjd]

i'm still interested in the use of topical DHT e.g. Andractim.

any of the gurus comment on this?

and IF topical DHT works, then i wonder if a topical DHT prohormone (such as 5-aa or m-5aa) would work.

 

[Neuromancer]

There is more to this than what I posted. This doesnt say topically but it gives some indication of what localized DHT could do in treatment.

Anti – Estrogen effects of DHT

One important function of DHT in the body that does not get much discussion is its antagonism of estrogen. Some men that take proscar learn this the hard way – by developing a case of gynecomastia. By reducing DHT’s protection against estrogen in the body, these men have fallen victim to its most dreaded ramification – bitch tits!
How does DHT protect against estrogen? There are at least three ways that this likely occurs. First of all, DHT directly inhibits estrogens activity on tissues. It either does this by acting as a competitive antagonist to the estrogen receptor or by decreasing estrogen-induced RNA transcription at a point subsequent to estrogen receptor binding.

Second of all, DHT and its metabolites have been shown to directly block the production of estrogens from androgens by inhibiting the activity of the aromatase enzyme. The studies done in breast tissue showed that DHT, androsterone, and 5alpha-androstandione are potent inhibitors of the formation of estrone from androstenedione. 5alpha-androstandione was shown to be the most potent, while androsterone was the least.

Lastly, DHT acts on the hypothalamus / pituitary to decrease the secretion of gonadotropins. By decreasing the secretion of gonadotropins you decrease the production of the raw materials for estrogen production – testosterone and androstenedione (DHT itself cannot aromatize into estrogens). This property of DHT comes into particular utility when it is administered exogenously, and this is to be discussed in further detail in the next section.

by Pat Arnold
[email protected]

​

 

[jjjd]

is 5-aa "base" available in powder form?

i have seen 5-aa cyp and m-5-aa. my understanding is that the longer the ester, the less effective a substance is in a TRANSDERMAL, which makes me think 5-aa base in a transdermal would be more effective than 5-aa cyp, but maybe not.

i am not sure at all how the methylated verision (m-5-aa) would work in a transdermal for this purpose, if at all.

it would certainly be an interesting formula to market for supp companies - a transdermal 5-aa.

and i wonder if effectiveness would be increased by using some sort of localized transport matrix ( i saw a thread on avant's forum in re: the use of this transport matrix on the arms only - with no apparent systemic shutdown), vs. the basic penetration enhancers (DMSO etc.)

i have lots of question on this. few answers.

 

[Neuromancer]

I am certain you could find base form of all hormones if you tried hard enough.
Yes you would want a "base" for the transdermal.

The localized transport would be the real issue, I have yet to see any solid proof of localized transdermal results.

 

[maggmaster]

Use 3 Alpha its a more highly converted form of 5A