Nolva During Havoc

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    Nolva During Havoc


    i guess u can say i am gyno-prone...i ran havoc once before stupidly with no PCT and got some signs of gyno...puffiness, pain - but no lump. i believe i also have some pubertal gyno...anyway i wan to run havoc again but this time do it properly so im thinking is it alright if i run 10mg of nolva ED + 40/40/20/20 PCT? and the havoc 20/20/30/30..thanks

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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty666 View Post
    i guess u can say i am gyno-prone...i ran havoc once before stupidly with no PCT and got some signs of gyno...puffiness, pain - but no lump. i believe i also have some pubertal gyno...anyway i wan to run havoc again but this time do it properly so im thinking is it alright if i run 10mg of nolva ED + 40/40/20/20 PCT? and the havoc 20/20/30/30..thanks


    Hmmmm. First, how old are you? Secondly, I would say if you're gyno prone, chances are you'll get some of it again. U sure you're not just a little chubby, cause you should be eating extra calories when you're on?
    Lots of people use Epi for gyno reduction, but I have a friend who grew boobs
    on 30 of Epi after only 2 weeks. Everyone responds differently to different compunds. He then took Mass Tabs later and dried out and actually seemed to lose his gyno.......................... go figure.


    If you run Epi (havoc) again, I'd run the first 2 days at 10, then 20 for the next 5 and see how the nips feel. If Ok after that, 30-40 seems to be the best. 40 might aggravate gyno so I'd stick with 30 and as for Nolva, I'd say 20 a day is good and there's no need to taper down. 40 is kinda high for Nolva, IMO but I'm sure someone more knowledgeable will chime in and help out some more.

    Good luck.
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    yeah i am rather "chubby" since i was a kid so i guess that has something to do with it...but i am unsure why that contributes to gyno??

    i'm 21

    Thanks.
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty666 View Post
    yeah i am rather "chubby" since i was a kid so i guess that has something to do with it...but i am unsure why that contributes to gyno??

    i'm 21

    Thanks.

    Hate to sound like I'm from BBing.com, but you're just too young, I think.

    Try a good natty test booster like T-Bol, Hypertest or Tribosten (it worked for me, Im different, ok?) if anything.

    You got a shi_tload of test coursing through you now. Eat alot of lean red meat, brown rice (no white carb, cept PostWO) fruits, veggies and some sat fats, like in good steak, mayo or olive oil, some chicken and fish, if you can do fish and just train hard like 3 days a week and take time off to recover and you should make gains.

    Maybe a good creatine mono like Creapure (Optimum Nutrition sells it, if you can't find it), maybe a PreWO mix like White Flood, Supercharge or Superpump and some bulk BCAA's and you should see gains. If not, you gots a problem. You build up your upper chest with inclines and the sides with crossovers and you'll reduce it the appearance of the gyno.


    Stay away from sugar, bad fast food and train heavy............assuming your joints are well and just keep at it.


    PH/DS is overkill right now IMHO.


    When you get to my age, then think about it.
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    if you run epi and are prone use nolva at 10mg ed and use something else for PCT, not sure if your on it for 4-6 weeks on cycle if it will kinda drop off in effectivneess during post cycle in terms of recovery. so grabs some clomid and an OTC AI for PCT and you should be good to go
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    If I'm so prone to gyno that I need to run a serm while on an epithio, I need to look elsewhere for ways to increase mass and strength. Pros don't outweigh cons in this scenario. Eh, maybe I'm being too conservative
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    If I'm so prone to gyno that I need to run a serm while on an epithio, I need to look elsewhere for ways to increase mass and strength. Pros don't outweigh cons in this scenario. Eh, maybe I'm being too conservative
    epithios do jack **** for my gyno

    only thing that works is Adex and high amounts of 6 bromo
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty666 View Post
    yeah i am rather "chubby" since i was a kid so i guess that has something to do with it...but i am unsure why that contributes to gyno??

    i'm 21

    Thanks.

    I gots the same problem. The fat makes your chest look.....................well, like a boob. The deposits conglomerate around the nipple, usually.


    Drop the BF, build up the outer/lower chest and you can reduce it w/o PH's or anything.


    When my BF gets real low, my chest looks much better. Even the pros look like they have a touch 'o gyno when "offseason."

    Fat happens.

    21 is too f_cking young for hormonal manipulation, in my book. It's like adding water to the ocean with an eyedropper.


    Good luck.
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    epithios do jack **** for my gyno

    only thing that works is Adex and high amounts of 6 bromo
    Agreed. I'm not convinced that anyone ever had gyno reduction with an epithio. I'm not saying they're lying, I'm just saying I don't believe it
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    Quote Originally Posted by droppinplates View Post
    I gots the same problem. The fat makes your chest look.....................well, like a boob. The deposits conglomerate around the nipple, usually.


    Drop the BF, build up the outer/lower chest and you can reduce it w/o PH's or anything.


    When my BF gets real low, my chest looks much better. Even the pros look like they have a touch 'o gyno when "offseason."

    Fat happens.

    21 is too f_cking young for hormonal manipulation, in my book. It's like adding water to the ocean with an eyedropper.


    Good luck.
    Gyno isnt fat. Fat is mistaken for gyno. Gyno is enlargement of the glandular tissue behind the nipple, the tiny pea sized bump that everyone has will enlarge become tender and painful. Generally if you have gyno, it will look WORSE when you drop BF because you'll see a tent pushing through your areola.

    I agree that in MOST cases 21 is too young. I've grown up with testosterone levels on the bottom 1/4 of the scale...low 300's. I could never gain any considerable muscle mass even with extremely fine toothed diet/consistent workout programs. I would up the calories and gain fat, not muscle. Havoc was an amazing and worthy experience for me. I gained 20lbs the first time I used it. However, if you are a normal young guy with levels in the 800-1200ng/dl and a low SHBG, you should be making gains like crazy without any DS. Hell, if you are 20 years old, havoc is going to seem less effective than it will to older guys because your natural T is already so high. Most of my friends that have tried havoc with consistent routines gained half of what I gained.

    I'm now looking at hopefully getting on TRT so I can experience what its like to be 20 years old.

    The the OP, if you are gyno "prone" then you need to have your gyno removed or you need to try running something like letrozole to reduce it as much as possible. I wouldn't mess with any hormones unless its straight testosterone with an AI. Running analogs like havoc, superdrol, anadrol, d-bol, winny, without testosterone base and controlled AI is dangerous because of the fluctuations that are occuring as your body shuts down its baseline LH.

    I don't care what anyone says about havoc NOT aromatizing. It doest matter. Crap happens. I've seen blood tests with estradiol in the 20's pre-havoc and estradiol in the 50's on havoc. It might not be direct conversion of the compound to estrogen, it may be your body just freaking out...who knows. What happens in the lab isn't always what happens to the body. The DS are chemical analogs that are not bioidentical to your body. Superdrol makes some people lethargic, it made me anxious and wired/isomnia.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Agreed. I'm not convinced that anyone ever had gyno reduction with an epithio. I'm not saying they're lying, I'm just saying I don't believe it
    Agreed. I think the gyno reduction bullsh*t is just the loss of all water weight in your chest. If theres less fluid in the lump then it looks reduced.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    Agreed. I think the gyno reduction bullsh*t is just the loss of all water weight in your chest. If theres less fluid in the lump then it looks reduced.
    I'm not sure that I fully understand how fluid would play a role in a "gyno-esque" lump. At the same time, if fluid does have a role, I'd bet that's part of the reason why AI's do such a good job of temporarily decreasing lump size and completely making them disappear on occasion. I lose a lot of fluid with atd and formestane. Not so much with bromo or 6oxo.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    I'm not sure that I fully understand how fluid would play a role in a "gyno-esque" lump. At the same time, if fluid does have a role, I'd bet that's part of the reason why AI's do such a good job of temporarily decreasing lump size and completely making them disappear on occasion. I lose a lot of fluid with atd and formestane. Not so much with bromo or 6oxo.
    haha I don't know. I'm just making stuff up. But it would seem like all tissues contain water...and if you are bloated, your nipples look puffy/feel puffy sometimes. When running an AI you are dried out and and flat. Seems like the gyno lump could flucuate depending on your water retention.
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    I don't understand why all you guys recommend tapering up on doses...it wont mitigate any sides that the individual is prone to...start the recommended or desired dose the first day and continue throughout the entire cycle...

    running epistane/havoc for 4 weeks is a waste of money...run it for 8.
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    Quote Originally Posted by PARooolller View Post
    I don't understand why all you guys recommend tapering up on doses...it wont mitigate any sides that the individual is prone to...start the recommended or desired dose the first day and continue throughout the entire cycle...

    running epistane/havoc for 4 weeks is a waste of money...run it for 8.
    are you f*cking joking man? Thats possibly the most idiotic statement i've heard this week.

    I shouldn't even waste time commenting, but...

    20mg for me might be just as effective as 40mg for you....alot depends on bodyweight, receptors, blood pressure, gyno prone, etc... Why would you ever start out at 30/40mg per day if you've never ran the compound before? The blood levels are going to build up MUCH quicker and you may end up with much unwanted side effects and not know if its from the actual compound or too much of the compound!

    I started Epi at 20mg for 2 week and had huge gains...when I bumped up to 40 (the idealistic sweet spot) I realized that it was the additional 10mgs that caused my higher blood pressure, cramps, water retention, and joint pain. I then determined that the sweet spot for me was simply 30mg.

    Its imperative to start out low so that you can asses the side effects before increasing the product.

    And as far as 4 weeks being a waste of money...well its a waste of money for people that don't know how to build muscle efficiently. I gained 16lbs on my first cycle and walked away with 12 solid lbs in only 31 days of use at 20/20/30/30.

    IMO 8 weeks is a waste of money! First, its becomes compoundingly toxic to your liver each week on a methyl. Secondly, gains tend to taper after the 4th week. Third, you'll experience far more HPTA suppression which will yield far less retention of your gains and require a longer (more expensive) PCT with possibly more expensive consquences. You might gain an additional 4lbs during the second half of that 8 week cycle, but then you'll more than likely loose it in the end because of the shutdown you'll experience. Extending past the 5 week mark would only be worth it if you were on a testosterone base for a good while (12wks).

    On top of all this, let me advise that I only used 10mg of SD for 7 days and had an ALT in the 600's. I would NEVER recommend ANY methyl for longer than 4-5weeks, without taking a break to let the liver detox.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    are you f*cking joking man? Thats possibly the most idiotic statement i've heard this week.

    I shouldn't even waste time commenting, but...

    20mg for me might be just as effective as 40mg for you....alot depends on bodyweight, receptors, blood pressure, gyno prone, etc... Why would you ever start out at 30/40mg per day if you've never ran the compound before? The blood levels are going to build up MUCH quicker and you may end up with much unwanted side effects and not know if its from the actual compound or too much of the compound!

    I started Epi at 20mg for 2 week and had huge gains...when I bumped up to 40 (the idealistic sweet spot) I realized that it was the additional 10mgs that caused my higher blood pressure, cramps, water retention, and joint pain. I then determined that the sweet spot for me was simply 30mg.

    Its imperative to start out low so that you can asses the side effects before increasing the product.

    And as far as 4 weeks being a waste of money...well its a waste of money for people that don't know how to build muscle efficiently. I gained 16lbs on my first cycle and walked away with 12 solid lbs in only 31 days of use at 20/20/30/30.

    IMO 8 weeks is a waste of money! First, its becomes compoundingly toxic to your liver each week on a methyl. Secondly, gains tend to taper after the 4th week. Third, you'll experience far more HPTA suppression which will yield far less retention of your gains and require a longer (more expensive) PCT with possibly more expensive consquences. You might gain an additional 4lbs during the second half of that 8 week cycle, but then you'll more than likely loose it in the end because of the shutdown you'll experience. Extending past the 5 week mark would only be worth it if you were on a testosterone base for a good while (12wks).

    On top of all this, let me advise that I only used 10mg of SD for 7 days and had an ALT in the 600's. I would NEVER recommend ANY methyl for longer than 4-5weeks, without taking a break to let the liver detox.
    I should have added that I was referring to substances already used in previous cycles...obviously, if it's your first time running a compound you should find the most effective dose which, like you stated, is all relative to the individual.

    Again, I just feel that Havoc is so mild for me personally that i need to run 2 bottles of it..at 30mgs a day, 2 bottles is about 8 weeks...

    The liver is a strong organ that has an amazing ability to repair..running methyls for longer than 5 weeks in a HEALTHY PERSON will not yield any long-term damage...in my opinion of course
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    haha I don't know. I'm just making stuff up. But it would seem like all tissues contain water...and if you are bloated, your nipples look puffy/feel puffy sometimes. When running an AI you are dried out and and flat. Seems like the gyno lump could flucuate depending on your water retention.
    Fair enough. Theories are surely welcome and I totally see your point. I do that all the time too
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    The fatter you are the more gyno will be pronounced, if there's any there at all.

    I see people who have it and think they don't and those that don't have it and think they do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by droppinplates View Post
    The fatter you are the more gyno will be pronounced, if there's any there at all.

    I see people who have it and think they don't and those that don't have it and think they do.
    the leaner you are the more it protrudes though

    my gyno is pretty noticable (to me atleast) now that im MUCH leaner then i wass in "offseason"
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    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    the leaner you are the more it protrudes though

    my gyno is pretty noticable (to me atleast) now that im MUCH leaner then i wass in "offseason"
    did you get it from using steroids? I would be so pissed if I got gyno from a cycle.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    did you get it from using steroids? I would be so pissed if I got gyno from a cycle.
    That's where most of us are getting our gyno lol
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    everytime i read the word gyno... my nuts run and hide! ha ha ha! just kidding. hey, props to you monsterbox, you seem to know your stuff man! ill keep following your advice
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    yea id say u mostly only get it fro m cycles only some of us have a bit from puberty
    its kinda funny if u seen kung pow enter the fist were he calles the asian guy king of the big dark nipple people yea i was called that for a while in my teens but i never know what gyno was till i started researching and joined AM
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    I still don't understand? Are most of you guys getting gyno from not knowing what your doing as in, not having a SERM/powerful AI on standby? Or, did you just randomly develop it even when trying to stop it with a SERM?

    All this gyno stuff is nerve racking....I mean, it seems that if everyone had the golden rule of keeping nolvadex for immediate relief it could be administered at the on-set of gyno symptoms and no one would ever develop full blown gyno.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I still don't understand? Are most of you guys getting gyno from not knowing what your doing as in, not having a SERM/powerful AI on standby? Or, did you just randomly develop it even when trying to stop it with a SERM?

    All this gyno stuff is nerve racking....I mean, it seems that if everyone had the golden rule of keeping nolvadex for immediate relief it could be administered at the on-set of gyno symptoms and no one would ever develop full blown gyno.
    Well i didn't get gyno from being a dumbass if that's what you're asking... Some compounds give me gyno! Tren and Revolt gave me gyno that all my research chems only slowed down but couldn't stop, i had to get off of them.

    Test gives me gyno but letro fixes it immediately.

    I'm just talking about sensitive nips and a lump, but all of my gyno has gone away each time. There is a tiny leftover lump under each nipple now so if i do anything that gives me gyno again I know it'll flare up and get sensitive and the lump will get bigger again. But currently it is "Inactive" and not noticable at all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    I still don't understand? Are most of you guys getting gyno from not knowing what your doing as in, not having a SERM/powerful AI on standby? Or, did you just randomly develop it even when trying to stop it with a SERM?

    All this gyno stuff is nerve racking....I mean, it seems that if everyone had the golden rule of keeping nolvadex for immediate relief it could be administered at the on-set of gyno symptoms and no one would ever develop full blown gyno.
    I have a small lump that developed after a SD pct. SERMs do nothing to decrease the size of my lump, but Formestane completely eliminates it. The lump comes back within 1-2 weeks of stopping the formestane.
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    I had a small lump which was extremely sensitive and painful at times I couldn't even sleep on it.. Did 4 weeks EPIdrol 20mg ED with Nolva 10mg EOD throughout and for PCT.. No more gyno whatsoever, lump/pain/sensitivity/puffiness all gone..
    Im actually thinking Epi pulse would make a great PCT if symptoms ever come back (it's been months since I lost the gyno symptoms)
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    hmm, i've never had pain/tenderness/itching, but I do have small lumps behind my nipples, way deep in there. They aren't large enough to show through my nipples or anything...i never noticed these until after my first cycle of havoc. So I can't tell if havoc created them or if they've been there forever. Seems like I would have known if I was getting gyno from the compound because it would have been sore right? Maybe we all have small lumps to begin with??
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    hmm, i've never had pain/tenderness/itching, but I do have small lumps behind my nipples, way deep in there. They aren't large enough to show through my nipples or anything...i never noticed these until after my first cycle of havoc. So I can't tell if havoc created them or if they've been there forever. Seems like I would have known if I was getting gyno from the compound because it would have been sore right? Maybe we all have small lumps to begin with??
    from what i read in the "if you think you have gyno" thread, everyone has small glands behind your nipples, but its when they become painful and swollen its gyno...
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    hmm, i've never had pain/tenderness/itching, but I do have small lumps behind my nipples, way deep in there. They aren't large enough to show through my nipples or anything...i never noticed these until after my first cycle of havoc. So I can't tell if havoc created them or if they've been there forever. Seems like I would have known if I was getting gyno from the compound because it would have been sore right? Maybe we all have small lumps to begin with??
    Nah, when you have it you know. For example, when mine was at it's worst, I would roll over at night onto my chest and the jolt of pain would wake me up. Now it only hurts if I hit it by accident, for example with a dumbbell while setting up for some presses.
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    Nah, when you have it you know. For example, when mine was at it's worst, I would roll over at night onto my chest and the jolt of pain would wake me up. Now it only hurts if I hit it by accident, for example with a dumbbell while setting up for some presses.
    wow, thats intense...are you ever going to look at surgery?
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    wow, thats intense...are you ever going to look at surgery?
    I sure hope not. The lump is definate, but it's super small. I'd say about 1/2 the size of a tick tack. It's not visible and I'm at 13ish percent bodyfat (had to say that since some in this thread suspect bodyfat may or may not play a role here). At the same time, if I cut up, I still don't think it would be visible but that's just a hunch.

    I've laid off any hormonal supps for a few months and the size and sensitivity has been decreasing steadily. IMO it's my own fault experimenting with tons of test boosters, AI's, a few cycles, and it finally caught up to me with the SD rebound.

    The irony is that I used to cry "BS" when people would talk about rebound gyno. I suppose I got what I deserved LMFAO
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    Quote Originally Posted by celc5 View Post
    I sure hope not. The lump is definate, but it's super small. I'd say about 1/2 the size of a tick tack. It's not visible and I'm at 13ish percent bodyfat (had to say that since some in this thread suspect bodyfat may or may not play a role here). At the same time, if I cut up, I still don't think it would be visible but that's just a hunch.

    I've laid off any hormonal supps for a few months and the size and sensitivity has been decreasing steadily. IMO it's my own fault experimenting with tons of test boosters, AI's, a few cycles, and it finally caught up to me with the SD rebound.

    The irony is that I used to cry "BS" when people would talk about rebound gyno. I suppose I got what I deserved LMFAO
    damn...so when did this happen? What was you SD cycle like?

    I do believe theres something wrong with the SD compound....I think the metabolites stay in your body for a while and mess up your system. After 2 weeks of non-responding to p-plex, I started M-drol for 8 days. Afterwards, I felt not like myself for a good month or so. Blood tests showed that my T had returned higher than my current baseline in only 14 days. However, I felt very strange for the entire month after the cycle, hormonal mood swings, puffyness, etc....I think there really is something to the rebound gyno. Its like SD blocks out some hormone receptor and then it rebounds wickedly down the road. I don't think Anadrol causes these problems and its as strong if not stronger than SD.
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    Just as celc described mine would wake me up- but I **** you not it's completely gone.. I didn't have a noticeable sized lump either, but it was painful and easily felt.
    I found low dose epidrol (I got this brand b/c Irish Cannon had his pubertal gyno taken care of with this exact brand) and it worked for me as well alongside Nolva..
    I got two bottles now waiting for a flare up but haven't had one since but I haven't done anything hormonal since either.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MPFit View Post
    Just as celc described mine would wake me up- but I **** you not it's completely gone.. I didn't have a noticeable sized lump either, but it was painful and easily felt.
    I found low dose epidrol (I got this brand b/c Irish Cannon had his pubertal gyno taken care of with this exact brand) and it worked for me as well alongside Nolva..
    I got two bottles now waiting for a flare up but haven't had one since but I haven't done anything hormonal since either.
    wow, I can't really can't believe how crazy this epi = removes gyno thing is. I wish I understood how it worked, because alot of people have had blood tests show raised e2 on epi. Some people even get gyno on epi. Maybe it has some type of estrogen/breast tissue binding operation sort of like nolva.
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    Another reason why I would never use CEL mdrol again I got it a few months after I finished the cycle
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    And like a week before I started eqt2
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post
    On top of all this, let me advise that I only used 10mg of SD for 7 days and had an ALT in the 600's. I would NEVER recommend ANY methyl for longer than 4-5weeks, without taking a break to let the liver detox.
    Holy **** bro, I assume you stopped the cycle? Did your levels return to normal? How long did it take?
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    Quote Originally Posted by monsterbox View Post

    I agree that in MOST cases 21 is too young. I've grown up with testosterone levels on the bottom 1/4 of the scale...low 300's. I could never gain any considerable muscle mass even with extremely fine toothed diet/consistent workout programs. I would up the calories and gain fat, not muscle. Havoc was an amazing and worthy experience for me. I gained 20lbs the first time I used it. However, if you are a normal young guy with levels in the 800-1200ng/dl and a low SHBG, you should be making gains like crazy without any DS. Hell, if you are 20 years old, havoc is going to seem less effective than it will to older guys because your natural T is already so high. Most of my friends that have tried havoc with consistent routines gained half of what I gained.
    Hey bro, I've never had my test levels checked, but I've had that same problem. I had my diet and training in check for over 1 year straight and gained little to no muscle!! The first time I tried a PH, my gains were just out of this world! I wonder if my test levels are low if I can get HRT through the mililtary lol. I bet that would NEVER happen!
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    Quote Originally Posted by AMTorres View Post
    Hey bro, I've never had my test levels checked, but I've had that same problem. I had my diet and training in check for over 1 year straight and gained little to no muscle!! The first time I tried a PH, my gains were just out of this world! I wonder if my test levels are low if I can get HRT through the mililtary lol. I bet that would NEVER happen!
    well 5 11 227 is huge as f*ck. I certainly doesn't sound like low t, but neither do my stats. You need to look at the big picture, not just your response to steroids. Is your well-being not what it used to be when you were a younger? Libido...etc... You definitely don't want HRT if your levels aren't too bad. Get a blood test bro and let us know what comes out.
  

  
 

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