Progesterone and Prolactin

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by marco wolf View Post
    sethroberts said,



    marco asked:



    I'm not trying to put you on the spot, or anything, but you've stated that you're "not a fan" of AI's. I was wondering what you would recommend instead of AI's, if anything at all.
    Sorry -- trying to respond to everything. Of course keeping doses as low as needed to have an effect will help. Other than that, I would use nolvadex. Nolvadex reduces estrogen receptor stimulation, keeps SHBG levels up and helps with blood lipids a little.


  2. Seth- I know you don't agree with PP's article, but do YOU feel there is considerable risk using nolva for extended periods of time(ie.16-20wks)? Or are they over stated in that sort of time frame, and generally only an issue in prolonged use?
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    Seth- I know you don't agree with PP's article, but do YOU feel there is considerable risk using nolva for extended periods of time(ie.16-20wks)? Or are they over stated in that sort of time frame, and generally only an issue in prolonged use?
    I think the dangers of nolva are largely overstated -- mostly by people trying to sell something as a dietary supplement for on or post-cycle therapy. That being said, the risk of adverse events generally goes up in frequency as the dose and duration are increased. I would not use Nolva for 20 weeks -- I would also be cautious about combining it with oral AAS since nolva can cause some liver tox.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    I think the dangers of nolva are largely overstated -- mostly by people trying to sell something as a dietary supplement for on or post-cycle therapy. That being said, the risk of adverse events generally goes up in frequency as the dose and duration are increased. I would not use Nolva for 20 weeks -- I would also be cautious about combining it with oral AAS since nolva can cause some liver tox.
    I hear ya, it is hard for me to wrap my head around an article, with such scare tactics, when advertising a generally unproven, over the counter supplement to do the job of actual pharmaceuticals.

    As for the 20wks, i was figuring if you ran a 14-16wk cycle while using nolva, then ran it for an additional 4wk pct, that would put you up in that range. Maybey longer factoring in any long esters clearing prior to PCT.

    Even a 12wk cycle would put you at 16wk min.

  5. Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    I hear ya, it is hard for me to wrap my head around an article, with such scare tactics, when advertising a generally unproven, over the counter supplement to do the job of actual pharmaceuticals.

    As for the 20wks, i was figuring if you ran a 14-16wk cycle while using nolva, then ran it for an additional 4wk pct, that would put you up in that range. Maybey longer factoring in any long esters clearing prior to PCT.

    Even a 12wk cycle would put you at 16wk min.
    True and I am sure that nolva is being used for very long periods of time by some users. I probably wouldn't run nolva at the same dose for an entire cycle and then into PCT. But then again, I tend towards more moderate doses which reduces the need for ancillaries. I think there is (perhaps rightfully so) a paranoia about developing gynecomastia so people go overboard and throw everything but the kitchen sink at it in the hopes of warding it off. How many posts do you see with people saying "I just took my third dose of X and my nipples are tingling, itching, sore, full, puffy, leaking when i apply enough pressure to pop my nipple off"
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  6. Good thread. Good info. Cheers.

  7. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Show me one shred of evidence that stimulation of the progesterone receptor causes gynecomastia.
    Reducing prolactin will reduce stimulation and growth of the mammary gland. (whether it’s PR or ER mediated growth) This is why I advice vitex while on cycle. Vitex also doesn’t carry the same toxic properties as Nolva.

    -Eric

  8. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    I think the dangers of nolva are largely overstated -- mostly by people trying to sell something as a dietary supplement for on or post-cycle therapy. That being said, the risk of adverse events generally goes up in frequency as the dose and duration are increased. I would not use Nolva for 20 weeks -- I would also be cautious about combining it with oral AAS since nolva can cause some liver tox.

    The dangers from Nolva are equally expressed by articles coming from peer reviewed journals too… Not just from my silly supplement company… the dangers are a reality.

    Interesting that you say the “dangers are overstated”, yet you say “I would not use nolva for 20 weeks”…

    Contradictory no?

    Let me just ask..

    Do you think Vitex is ineffective for combating gyno coming from the use of a progestin based anabolic?

    -Eric

  9. Quote Originally Posted by nunes View Post
    I got to say that I agree with Seth in everything he says, it make a lot a sense and for my research , experience and readings on anabolics its all true
    reps and I`M going to the store and buy the book, I`ll pay a lot in taxes but what the hell its well worth
    I agree with most of what he says too… except his prescription of nolva…

    -Eric

  10. statements like nolva makes gyno worse while on nandrolone are over all the boards. do you recommend using nolva if symptoms of gynecomastia appear while on nandrolone?

  11. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Reducing prolactin will reduce stimulation and growth of the mammary gland. (whether it’s PR or ER mediated growth) This is why I advice vitex while on cycle. Vitex also doesn’t carry the same toxic properties as Nolva.

    -Eric
    There is simply no evidence that prolactin plays a role in gynecomastia -- i.e. the growth of breast tissue. The Williams Text of Endocrinology states and I quote "Prolactin does not play a direct role in gynecomastia" and "this conclusion is in keeping with the fact that prolactin is not a growth hormone for the breast".

    Vitex does not carry the same toxic properties as nolva but that does not mean that it is free from potential side effects. Any substance that alters dopamine signalling has the potential to desensitive dopaminergic neurons to dopamine which could result in levated prolactin levels upon cessation due to the loss of inhibitory control.

    Do you have any evdiece to the contrary?

  12. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    The dangers from Nolva are equally expressed by articles coming from peer reviewed journals too… Not just from my silly supplement company… the dangers are a reality.

    Interesting that you say the “dangers are overstated”, yet you say “I would not use nolva for 20 weeks”…

    Contradictory no?

    Let me just ask..

    Do you think Vitex is ineffective for combating gyno coming from the use of a progestin based anabolic?

    -Eric

    "The dangers are overstated" does not mean that there are not potential risks with its use. These risks increase with dose and duration as I have previously stated. The greatest dangers from nolva - in my opinion - are liver toxicity and endometrial cancer -- and I don't have a uterus.

    I do not think vitex is effective for combating gyno coming from the use of progestin based anabolics because there is not evidence that it is the progesterone receptor activity or the prolactin that is causing the gyno. What are you proposing to be the mechanism of action of vitex efficacy in progestin based gyno? I am open to discussion and new evidence must always be considered if theories are to evolve over time but I am not going to go round and round with you in a circular argument -- either provide evidence outside of anecdotal observations or give us all a break.

  13. Quote Originally Posted by repmks View Post
    statements like nolva makes gyno worse while on nandrolone are over all the boards. do you recommend using nolva if symptoms of gynecomastia appear while on nandrolone?
    There is a lot of bologni all over the boards. Somebody says something and then everyone repeats it over and over again to appear as if they know something. If gyno symptoms appear, then it may be too late. Do I recommend nolva over treating with something to reduce prolactin in the absence of elevated prolactin? yes.

    The statements about nolva are based on the following premises: 1) progesterone receptor stimulation causes gyno 2) nolvadex upregulates progesterone receptors. There is no evidence for #1 and although # 2 may occur in the short term, nolva has been shown to decrease progesterone receptor concentration in the longer term.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    There is a lot of bologni all over the boards. Somebody says something and then everyone repeats it over and over again to appear as if they know something. If gyno symptoms appear, then it may be too late. Do I recommend nolva over treating with something to reduce prolactin in the absence of elevated prolactin? yes.

    The statements about nolva are based on the following premises: 1) progesterone receptor stimulation causes gyno 2) nolvadex upregulates progesterone receptors. There is no evidence for #1 and although # 2 may occur in the short term, nolva has been shown to decrease progesterone receptor concentration in the longer term.

    http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050901/821.html

    dont we always use nolva short term anyway, so the long term decrease in PR concentration doesnt apply to how we use it correct?

  15. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050901/821.html

    dont we always use nolva short term anyway, so the long term decrease in PR concentration doesnt apply to how we use it correct?
    Depends on how you define short and long term and how you define increased PR expression. I would actually argue that PR downregulation is not desired. Treatment with the progesterone receptor antagonist Mifepristine actually results in gynecomastia probably through the loss of the suppressive effects of progesterone receptor activation on estrogen.

  16. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    http://www.aafp.org/afp/20050901/821.html

    dont we always use nolva short term anyway, so the long term decrease in PR concentration doesnt apply to how we use it correct?
    That is an interesting article that you linked to. Did you see these quotes?

    A small study involving 20 healthy men showed increased prolactin levels in those receiving a low dose of chasteberry (120 mg per day) but a decrease of prolactin secretion with higher doses (480 mg per day).

    Chasteberry also has been used to modify libido, most often to reduce sexual desire but sometimes to improve decreased libido.

    Also, did you notice absolutely no mention of treatment of gynecomastia in that article. Additionally, there is no evidence in the scientiific/medical literature of its use for gynecomastia.

  17. Yea I just thought I'd put that out there because there was a small discussion on it and you can take from it what u can

  18. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    Yea I just thought I'd put that out there because there was a small discussion on it and you can take from it what u can
    Yeah. And I am not telling people to not use vitex or AIs or some combination of those and whatever else you want to take that makes you feel like you are doing the best thing for you. There are risks associated with every substance you put into your body, including over the counter supps and herbs. Everybody has to weigh these risks versus the potential benefits and make an informed decision. I just have not seen any convincing evidence that progesterone or prolactin cause the symptoms of gynecomastia in the absence of elevated estrogen and if elevated estrogen is the root cause, then that is what I want to treat.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Yeah. And I am not telling people to not use vitex or AIs or some combination of those and whatever else you want to take that makes you feel like you are doing the best thing for you. There are risks associated with every substance you put into your body, including over the counter supps and herbs. Everybody has to weigh these risks versus the potential benefits and make an informed decision. I just have not seen any convincing evidence that progesterone or prolactin cause the symptoms of gynecomastia in the absence of elevated estrogen and if elevated estrogen is the root cause, then that is what I want to treat.
    Fair statement here.

    I’d love to spend the next few hours of my day hunting down abstracts that show prolactin or progestin induce mammary gland growth… but I simply don’t have the opportunity at the moment. (pregnancy = prolactin = breast growth, hello!?)

    Trenbolone would theoretically lower circulating estrogen during a cycle by way of negative feedback upon T production, yet gyno is a common occurrence with high doses of this Trenbolone. (obviously, I propose this is related to a direct action on the PR). I think your theory is that sulfate bound E2 is being released over the term of this cycle, and thus stimulating gyno by a lack of ER antagonism from trenbolone?

    I suppose this is a possibility (and probably explains part of the problem), but you would be just as hard pressed to find a single silver bullet study to support that statement as I would have trying to find a study showing male gyno being induced by a progestin or a prolactin/progestin combination.

    -Eric

  20. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    I would caution against "reducing" estrogen as I do think that AIs may be partially to blame. "Controlling" estrogen is preferable and I am partial to SERMS for this purpose. Especially for non-aromatizing or low aromatizing compounds because the reduction in SHBG and the increased "free" estrogens will not be helped by AI's.
    whats your opinion on running low dosed- two pumps 2xday td formestane on a tren cycle? formestane is different than most ai's as you well know.
    GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY!!!

  21. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    Fair statement here.

    I’d love to spend the next few hours of my day hunting down abstracts that show prolactin or progestin induce mammary gland growth… but I simply don’t have the opportunity at the moment. (pregnancy = prolactin = breast growth, hello!?)

    Trenbolone would theoretically lower circulating estrogen during a cycle by way of negative feedback upon T production, yet gyno is a common occurrence with high doses of this Trenbolone. (obviously, I propose this is related to a direct action on the PR). I think your theory is that sulfate bound E2 is being released over the term of this cycle, and thus stimulating gyno by a lack of ER antagonism from trenbolone?

    I suppose this is a possibility (and probably explains part of the problem), but you would be just as hard pressed to find a single silver bullet study to support that statement as I would have trying to find a study showing male gyno being induced by a progestin or a prolactin/progestin combination.

    -Eric
    That is pretty close. Back conversion of estrone sulfate to estradiol. The estrogen sulfate would be elevated due to decreases in SHBG that accompanies strong androgenic stimulation in the absence of estrogen. This decrease in SHBG also removes the protective effect of SHBG against breast tissue gorwth. Everyone is keen on decreasing SHBG but there are some good papers showing that SHBG actually protects against breast tissue growth beyond its ability to sequestor estrogens.

    As I stated earlier in the thread, I was one of the first to put the idea out there that progesterone receptor stimulation may be causing gyno. It was only later that I realized that this is incorrect. Breast growth in pregnancy is probably not a good model for gynecomastia because there are so many hormonal changes going on simultaneously. Prolactin is not a growth factor in the breast and progesterone not only decrease prolactin but also decreases estrogen receptor expression. This is further driven home by the fact that the progesterone antagonist, mifepristone, actually results in gynecomastia. You don't have to search now and this shouldn't be some kind of contest. I have searched extensively on this topic over the years and I am very well-versed in the body of knowledge on the subject but you never know, you may pick a set of search terms that turns up something I haven't.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    whats your opinion on running low dosed- two pumps 2xday td formestane on a tren cycle? formestane is different than most ai's as you well know.
    I am not sure if suicidal AIs are better or worse when it comes down to it. The end result is generally the same, too low levels of estrogen, horrible HDL levels and potential rebound gynecomastia.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    I am not sure if suicidal AIs are better or worse when it comes down to it. The end result is generally the same, too low levels of estrogen, horrible HDL levels and potential rebound gynecomastia.
    but by it boosting igf-1 secretion, upregulating hpta and decreasing shbg doesn't this make formestane different than most other suicide ai's. and i am talking low dosed.
    GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY!!!

  24. Quote Originally Posted by thebigt View Post
    but by it boosting igf-1 secretion, upregulating hpta and decreasing shbg doesn't this make formestane different than most other suicide ai's. and i am talking low dosed.
    Maybe but it makes it similar to some competitive AI's

  25. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Maybe but it makes it similar to some competitive AI's
    i have to disagree, i feel adding td formestane to my cycles is the best decision ive made regarding ph cycles. ive done propadrol before and many different cycles with formestane included and have no signs of any gyno/prolatin issues. i guess results speak for themselves. nice information though, very interesting.
    GOD, FAMILY, COUNTRY!!!
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