Progesterone and Prolactin - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 5

Progesterone and Prolactin

Page 5 of 7 First ... 34567 Last
  1. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    If you look at the molecule structure of dienolone you can see it's somewhere between nandrolone and Trenbolone, but since it doesn’t aromatize (and considering its overall effects) I’d say it much closer to trenbolone.

    -Eric
    Their is no proof one way or the other as to whether it aromatizes and the binding affinities say that it is closer to nandrolone.

    Nandrolone Dienolone Trenbolone
    AR 154 134 197
    PR 20 17 74

  2. Advanced Member
    Dragon13's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  288 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    710
    Rep Power
    496

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Their is no proof one way or the other as to whether it aromatizes and the binding affinities say that it is closer to nandrolone.

    Nandrolone Dienolone Trenbolone
    AR 154 134 197
    PR 20 17 74
    Yeah, based on info in this thread - I'm kinda leaning towards maybe it does. That would explain a whole heck of a lot, and make running an AI with the Trens the simple solution.
  3. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Hepatic Impairment: Since Cabergoline is extensively metabolized by the liver, caution should be used, and careful monitoring exercised, when administering Cabergoline to patients with hepatic impairment.

    There is also some potential for cardiac valvulopathy but that is generally with longer term use.

    The larger concern is not even listed as a potential side effect. In the lab we used dopamine agonists to desensitize dopamine receptors. We did it to mimic parkinson's and though i doubt that is a concern here, the desensitization is a concern because the loss of dopaminergic suppression of lactotropes could actually result in prolactin excess.
    do you feel .5 mg of Caber will do more harm then good at 1 dose per week? will it be ok to use it especially on npp and test, and soon to be test and Tren?
    •   
       

  4. Advanced Member
    Random181's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  0 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Posts
    674
    Rep Power
    409

    Reputation

    seth, eric: what are your views on Bromocriptine in the event of prolactin problems? will it be effective against 1-t tren gyno? (if any occurs) im also confused about its long term effects, will there be any effects of a short 1.25mg ED sort of course if I needed it to cure issues on/after 1-t tren? Do either of you also have views on running it on cycle, or is it just overkill?
  5. New Member
    gelin's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  216 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2008
    Posts
    41
    Rep Power
    92

    Reputation

    Seth,

    I’d appreciate it if you could touch on the anadrol-winstrol relationship. It’s got me a little confused.

    Anadrol doesn’t aromatize obviously… Historically its sides have been attributed to progestins, as it binds PR but not AR. Now, you’ve stated that the release of bound estrogens due to lowered SHBG levels, as well as the loss of the general protective effects of SHBG can explain gyno with certain compounds such as SD, phera, anadrol and tren. That makes sense to me so far.

    Running winny alongside anadrol seems to cut down on sides. Yet winny supposedly knocks down SHBG levels greatly. It’s also been said that winny has “anti-progestagenic” effects. I don’t know what that really entails. If anadrol’s sides are indeed due to freed estrogen and a lowered SHBG environment, can you explain what happens when winny is added to the model? Why aren't anadrol's sides more pronounced? TIA.
  6. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    do you feel .5 mg of Caber will do more harm then good at 1 dose per week? will it be ok to use it especially on npp and test, and soon to be test and Tren?
    The only appropriate use of bromocriptine is in the presence of clinically elevated prolactin levels (and of course as prescribed and under the supervision of a physician) -- imo there is no reason to use it otherwise.
  7. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by gelin View Post
    Seth,

    I’d appreciate it if you could touch on the anadrol-winstrol relationship. It’s got me a little confused.

    Anadrol doesn’t aromatize obviously… Historically its sides have been attributed to progestins, as it binds PR but not AR. Now, you’ve stated that the release of bound estrogens due to lowered SHBG levels, as well as the loss of the general protective effects of SHBG can explain gyno with certain compounds such as SD, phera, anadrol and tren. That makes sense to me so far.

    Running winny alongside anadrol seems to cut down on sides. Yet winny supposedly knocks down SHBG levels greatly. It’s also been said that winny has “anti-progestagenic” effects. I don’t know what that really entails. If anadrol’s sides are indeed due to freed estrogen and a lowered SHBG environment, can you explain what happens when winny is added to the model? Why aren't anadrol's sides more pronounced? TIA.
    There is no evidence that oxymetholone binds to the PR and though its AR binding is low, its has been shown that its effects are mediated through the AR. Running winny may seem to cut down on the sides but this is not in controlled tests -- only through anecdotal reports. I suggested its use as such back in 1997 or 1998. Winstrol is a strange molecule -- it binds receptors for which there is no known function (or whose function is still being elucidated). I also talk a lot in my book about how different steroids alter adrenal function and how this may have a role in producing gynecomastia.
  8. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    The only appropriate use of bromocriptine is in the presence of clinically elevated prolactin levels (and of course as prescribed and under the supervision of a physician) -- imo there is no reason to use it otherwise.
    libido purposes, seems to help me a little in that area when i take it. just wondered if it would be more more harm then good while on test and progestins, im using adex EOD though
  9. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    libido purposes, seems to help me a little in that area when i take it. just wondered if it would be more more harm then good while on test and progestins, im using adex EOD though
    If prolactin is elevated and is causing decreased libido then it would be valid to use it for that purpose. Do you have any evidence that prolactin is elevated?
  10. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    If prolactin is elevated and is causing decreased libido then it would be valid to use it for that purpose. Do you have any evidence that prolactin is elevated?
    im using it 1x a week for protective measure, because i need to pick up my labs from my last blood test.

    but i still have a little gyno so i know my e2 is a tad high or higher then it should be as well as my growth factors which may lead to that prolactin increase.
  11. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    im using it 1x a week for protective measure, because i need to pick up my labs from my last blood test.

    but i still have a little gyno so i know my e2 is a tad high or higher then it should be as well as my growth factors which may lead to that prolactin increase.
    The only question then is, if prolactin is not elevated, would there be any point to using caber?
    but, since you are already taking it, it may confound the test results (if you were taking it before the blood test)
  12. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    The only question then is, if prolactin is not elevated, would there be any point to using caber?
    but, since you are already taking it, it may confound the test results (if you were taking it before the blood test)
    i cant remember, i dont think soo i think i started the next day
  13. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    i cant remember, i dont think soo i think i started the next day
    Well then it may be enlightneing to see your prolactin level when it comes back. Please share. I just wonder how many people are treating "elevated" prolactin when there is, in fact, no real elevation.
  14. Diamond Member
    Trauma1's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2006
    Age
    35
    Posts
    15,425
    Rep Power
    57338

    Reputation

    Damn - It looks like a missed quite a bit in the week i was gone. I have some catching up to do with reading.

    I have some good endocrine/pathophysiology info to add to this discussion.

    Evolutionary Muse - Inspire to Evolve
    Legendary

  15. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Well then it may be enlightneing to see your prolactin level when it comes back. Please share. I just wonder how many people are treating "elevated" prolactin when there is, in fact, no real elevation.
    i can call and try having them fax my labs over, its a 40min drive to go there just tp pick them up.;
  16. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Trauma1 View Post
    Damn - It looks like a missed quite a bit in the week i was gone. I have some catching up to do with reading.

    I have some good endocrine/pathophysiology info to add to this discussion.
    id love to hear
  17. Professional Member
    fueledpassion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,525
    Rep Power
    645670

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Firstly, only trenbolone is a strong PR binder, dienolone and nandrolone are not -- they bind but are actually quite weak. The rest of what you wrote (I can address more fully in a little while -- I am heading out at the moment) is more or less correct (there are some things that I will take issue with later) but the whole ball of wax can be summed up by saying that in the absence of elevated estrogen, prolactin and progesterone will not cause gynecomastia so I go back to my original statement that if you control estrogen, then you will limit gyno. If prolactin and or gyno cannot cause gyno in the absence of elevated estrogen then they are not the root cause.
    I like all the info you've given and the responses and questions, although some of it is exhaustive to say the least. So with that statement, I want to get to brass tax on this subject.

    What to do on cycle and PCT for Tren? I can firmly agree with you on the matter of controlling estrogen to avoid gyno of any type, but you don't recommend the use of AI's, even the weaker ones, while on cycle. Why? I thought AI's did just that -- control estrogen levels. And yes, I heard about the whole idea of Tren shutting you down and making the body "vulnerable" to "free" estrogen, which is suspect to cause all this gyno in the first place. AI's don't have any affect on free estro?

    I would almost think a reasonable dose of AI while on cycle would work just fine. That is what I'm currently doing, and so far no problems have arised. Of course, I'm using Formex, which is formestane. The me and thebigT are the current people using Tren and formestane, although he is using the transdermal form, I am not.

    But the real question for myself is how to come off the AI once the cycle is over. Cold turkey sounds like a recipe for estrogen spikes to me. What would you recommend?
  18. Board Sponsor
    Eric Potratz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,830
    Rep Power
    1864

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    I like all the info you've given and the responses and questions, although some of it is exhaustive to say the least. So with that statement, I want to get to brass tax on this subject.

    What to do on cycle and PCT for Tren? I can firmly agree with you on the matter of controlling estrogen to avoid gyno of any type, but you don't recommend the use of AI's, even the weaker ones, while on cycle. Why? I thought AI's did just that -- control estrogen levels. And yes, I heard about the whole idea of Tren shutting you down and making the body "vulnerable" to "free" estrogen, which is suspect to cause all this gyno in the first place. AI's don't have any affect on free estro?

    I would almost think a reasonable dose of AI while on cycle would work just fine. That is what I'm currently doing, and so far no problems have arised. Of course, I'm using Formex, which is formestane. The me and thebigT are the current people using Tren and formestane, although he is using the transdermal form, I am not.

    But the real question for myself is how to come off the AI once the cycle is over. Cold turkey sounds like a recipe for estrogen spikes to me. What would you recommend?
    If these steroids are causing gyno by releasing E2 through SHBG down-regulation or competitive binding then an AI won’t do anything to prevent gyno from the circulating E2. (or the low levels of antagonistic DHT) Therefore, Seth suggests a SERM to block the action of estrogen.

    The theory makes sense, but I would still caution against the SERM administration and instead opt for prolactin control. (Being a potent co-factor in breast growth, perhaps keeping it in the sub-physiological range will partly cripple estrogens ability to induce mammary growth)

    -Eric
  19. Board Sponsor
    Eric Potratz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,830
    Rep Power
    1864

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Random181 View Post
    seth, eric: what are your views on Bromocriptine in the event of prolactin problems? will it be effective against 1-t tren gyno? (if any occurs) im also confused about its long term effects, will there be any effects of a short 1.25mg ED sort of course if I needed it to cure issues on/after 1-t tren? Do either of you also have views on running it on cycle, or is it just overkill?
    Yeah, no reason for the bromo… I would just stick with the Vitex.

    -Eric
  20. Professional Member
    fueledpassion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,525
    Rep Power
    645670

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    If these steroids are causing gyno by releasing E2 through SHBG down-regulation or competitive binding then an AI won’t do anything to prevent gyno from the circulating E2. (or the low levels of antagonistic DHT) Therefore, Seth suggests a SERM to block the action of estrogen.

    The theory makes sense, but I would still caution against the SERM administration and instead opt for prolactin control. (Being a potent co-factor in breast growth, perhaps keeping it in the sub-physiological range will partly cripple estrogens ability to induce mammary growth)

    -Eric
    The only problem is, I still have this feeling of "iffiness". I dont really see a conclusion or a general agreement in theory. I see one very educated man in this thread in the matters of hormones and everyone else either 1) sharing results, or 2) asking questions like myself. Heck, I'm gonna get all of these products and keeping searching for a perfect way to combine the dosages in PCT. So far, I have this:

    Formex
    Nolva
    ZMA


    and I might consider buying the Vitrix stuff, since I've heard good results in libido enhancements, or I might opt for Hydrotest. So if anyone on here has experience with the same or similar PCT please chime in on how to use them together in regards to Tren or Trenlike PH's. Thanks.
  21. New Member
    samadhismiles's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2007
    Posts
    176
    Rep Power
    170

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Hepatic Impairment: Since Cabergoline is extensively metabolized by the liver, caution should be used, and careful monitoring exercised, when administering Cabergoline to patients with hepatic impairment.

    There is also some potential for cardiac valvulopathy but that is generally with longer term use.

    The larger concern is not even listed as a potential side effect. In the lab we used dopamine agonists to desensitize dopamine receptors. We did it to mimic parkinson's and though i doubt that is a concern here, the desensitization is a concern because the loss of dopaminergic suppression of lactotropes could actually result in prolactin excess.
    so are you saying that you could get a prolactin 'rebound' effect after stopping cabergoline treatment?
  22. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post
    If these steroids are causing gyno by releasing E2 through SHBG down-regulation or competitive binding then an AI won’t do anything to prevent gyno from the circulating E2. (or the low levels of antagonistic DHT) Therefore, Seth suggests a SERM to block the action of estrogen.

    The theory makes sense, but I would still caution against the SERM administration and instead opt for prolactin control. (Being a potent co-factor in breast growth, perhaps keeping it in the sub-physiological range will partly cripple estrogens ability to induce mammary growth)

    -Eric
    The only problem is that prolactin control wil ldo nothing for the elevated estrogen and with a reduction in prolactin, estrogen is likely to go higher.
  23. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by samadhismiles View Post
    so are you saying that you could get a prolactin 'rebound' effect after stopping cabergoline treatment?
    Absolutely. Possibly long term depending on how severe the desensitization in dopaminergic neurons.
  24. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    The only problem is, I still have this feeling of "iffiness". I dont really see a conclusion or a general agreement in theory. I see one very educated man in this thread in the matters of hormones and everyone else either 1) sharing results, or 2) asking questions like myself. Heck, I'm gonna get all of these products and keeping searching for a perfect way to combine the dosages in PCT. So far, I have this:

    Formex
    Nolva
    ZMA


    and I might consider buying the Vitrix stuff, since I've heard good results in libido enhancements, or I might opt for Hydrotest. So if anyone on here has experience with the same or similar PCT please chime in on how to use them together in regards to Tren or Trenlike PH's. Thanks.
    When there is a perfect consensus, that is when you should be very skeptical.
  25. Board Sponsor
    Eric Potratz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,830
    Rep Power
    1864

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by fueledpassion View Post
    The only problem is, I still have this feeling of "iffiness". I dont really see a conclusion or a general agreement in theory. I see one very educated man in this thread in the matters of hormones and everyone else either 1) sharing results, or 2) asking questions like myself. Heck, I'm gonna get all of these products and keeping searching for a perfect way to combine the dosages in PCT. So far, I have this:

    Formex
    Nolva
    ZMA


    and I might consider buying the Vitrix stuff, since I've heard good results in libido enhancements, or I might opt for Hydrotest. So if anyone on here has experience with the same or similar PCT please chime in on how to use them together in regards to Tren or Trenlike PH's. Thanks.
    Just FYI, Im just talking about 460mg/day of the generic vitex... not all the fancy stuff on the market.

    -Eric
  26. Board Sponsor
    Eric Potratz's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2007
    Posts
    2,830
    Rep Power
    1864

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    with a reduction in prolactin, estrogen is likely to go higher.
    How do you propose?
  27. New Member
    Brenn's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  223 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    95
    Rep Power
    283

    Reputation

    Excellent thread everyone, absolutely riveting!

    I have a complicated question about PRE-Cycle therapy, based on my limited knowledge. i.e. Setting up a good environment for avoiding gyno. Ideally, I'd rather avoid it than deal with it.

    From the reading of this thread, I gleaned this: Tren, Tren desigers and possible Anadrol etc. cause a lowering of SHBG, which releases bound Estrone Sulfate, which in the presence of raised PG or PG sensitivity = possible gyno. Or maybe the Estrone Sulfate alone causes it.

    The question is thus:
    Would a low-dosed AI for a month or so before a cycle help avoid the arising of Gyno symptoms once on a cycle of Tren or the "Tren" designers?

    My thinking (however dimly lit) is like this: By suicidal inhibition of Aromatase for a month, most aromatase is inhibited. During this time, SHBG bound Estrone Sulfate clears the body by regular enzymatic process. New SHBG is produced, but is not bound to Estrone Sulfate as there would be little to bind to due to the AI. So when the Tren Designer is introduced, there is no Estrone Sulfate to be released, so less gyno risk. Follow up by taking Nolva on cycle to avoid whatever problems may arise from the DS/AAS

    I ask about a month period as I've heard that it is roughly the enzymatic turnover time for aromatase. (Journal of Broscience et. al 2009).

    Or by doing the above, would we just be setting up a major estro-rebound in PCT?

    Is there any way to set up the body for a cycle of Tren/Designers?

    Thanks again for the excellent read!
  28. Professional Member
    fueledpassion's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Posts
    3,525
    Rep Power
    645670

    Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenn View Post
    Excellent thread everyone, absolutely riveting!

    I have a complicated question about PRE-Cycle therapy, based on my limited knowledge. i.e. Setting up a good environment for avoiding gyno. Ideally, I'd rather avoid it than deal with it.

    From the reading of this thread, I gleaned this: Tren, Tren desigers and possible Anadrol etc. cause a lowering of SHBG, which releases bound Estrone Sulfate, which in the presence of raised PG or PG sensitivity = possible gyno. Or maybe the Estrone Sulfate alone causes it.

    The question is thus:
    Would a low-dosed AI for a month or so before a cycle help avoid the arising of Gyno symptoms once on a cycle of Tren or the "Tren" designers?

    My thinking (however dimly lit) is like this: By suicidal inhibition of Aromatase for a month, most aromatase is inhibited. During this time, SHBG bound Estrone Sulfate clears the body by regular enzymatic process. New SHBG is produced, but is not bound to Estrone Sulfate as there would be little to bind to due to the AI. So when the Tren Designer is introduced, there is no Estrone Sulfate to be released, so less gyno risk. Follow up by taking Nolva on cycle to avoid whatever problems may arise from the DS/AAS

    I ask about a month period as I've heard that it is roughly the enzymatic turnover time for aromatase. (Journal of Broscience et. al 2009).

    Or by doing the above, would we just be setting up a major estro-rebound in PCT?

    Is there any way to set up the body for a cycle of Tren/Designers?

    Thanks again for the excellent read!
    Thats a really good question and I too would like to hear some educated opinions on the matter.
  29. Advanced Member
    Dragon13's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  288 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    710
    Rep Power
    496

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    The only problem is that prolactin control wil ldo nothing for the elevated estrogen and with a reduction in prolactin, estrogen is likely to go higher.
    Which makes an even more compelling case for an on-cycle AI or SERM.
  30. Senior Member
    Mass_69's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  220 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Posts
    1,550
    Rep Power
    3037

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenn View Post
    From the reading of this thread, I gleaned this: Tren, Tren desigers and possible Anadrol etc. cause a lowering of SHBG, which releases bound Estrone Sulfate, which in the presence of raised PG or PG sensitivity = possible gyno. Or maybe the Estrone Sulfate alone causes it.
    FYI - Elevated androgens in general cause a lowering of SHBG (as do elevated insulin, cortisol, among other things). Estrogens & thyroid hormones, among other things, raise SHBG. I'm not sure if there are specific androgens that do not lower SHBG, but my guess would be the less androgenic (the androgen) is, the less of a lowering effect it has on SHBG.
  31. Advanced Member
    Dragon13's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  288 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    710
    Rep Power
    496

    Reputation

    Very interesting thread on another site. See:

    http://www.t-nation.com/free_online_...85069&pageNo=0

    Read through the whole thing, but about 25% down on page 2 you'll see the tie-in with the this topic.
  32. New Member
    Brenn's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  223 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    95
    Rep Power
    283

    Reputation

    Hey Mass69, Roger that, very true. I mentioned those Trens and Anadrol as they seem to lower SHBG AND result in problems for many folks. (AD50 I really enjoyed when I was younger BTW). For some reason, other SHBG lowering AAS don't seem to have the same nasty reputation. I wish I knew why.

    I'm really curious to find the differences between AAS's that affect SHBG the same way, as Tren and Anadrol (Superdrol), but don't cause nearly the same amount of Gyno hassle.

    For example: Winni and Proviron are so great at lowering SHBG, and are often taken to enhance the effectiveness of a Test cycle, raise free test etc. But I've never heard of Winnie or Proviron causing this problem, as we know they are taken to offset gyno risk! Tendons that snap like dry twigs, yes! But not the Gyno so much. Something else is going on there that doesn't seem to depend solely on SHBG being down. So it must be in combination with PG being up? But then what about Anadrol, wheres the PG? I'd love to know.

    With 19-nors and Tren, we can say they are progesterones and, that the action on PG and PG sensitivity is to blame, in combo with the SHBG lowering. But Interestingly, in another thread on this here board, there was a discussion about SD and Gyno.

    One member interviewed many users and the ones that reported Gyno after SD almost always included and AI in their PCT. The ones who used SERM only, far less Gyno.

    They theorized that it was because of supressed E for too long (on cycle, then into PCT) then came off the AI after PCT, the AI cycles out of the system, then WHAM! Estrogen sensitivity + raised E2 = "delayed gyno"...seemed convincing.

    However, if the info in this thread is on target, perhaps it works like this: With a Clomid protocol for example, in basic terms Test rises, but so does E2 to a lesser degree. With a rise in E2 from the Clomid therapy, SHBG rises with it, giving (as Seth said) protective effects in the breast tisue = no gyno.

    Alternatively:
    Post cycle CLOMID + AI would suppress this E2 rise from the clomid and also the SHBG rise with it, also further enhance E2 sensitivity, then a few weeks/months later...delayed gyno. So when PCT is finished: Low SHBG, rising E2, E2 sensitivity...gyno

    Much like IKEA furniture however, after making this (cough) "theory" there is still an extra part left out...Progesterone. Where does it fit with the Lowered SHBG + E2 sensitivity/rise? Dunno. As hormones normalise, is there a rise in PG also?

    Ok guys, (taking of my Broscientist Lab coat and hat with the mirror thing), off to work.

    Fun thread...I got a bottle SD that I'm keen to use, but I gotta work this out beforehand!
  33. Advanced Member
    Dragon13's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  288 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2008
    Posts
    710
    Rep Power
    496

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenn View Post
    Hey Mass69, Roger that, very true. I mentioned those Trens and Anadrol as they seem to lower SHBG AND result in problems for many folks. (AD50 I really enjoyed when I was younger BTW). For some reason, other SHBG lowering AAS don't seem to have the same nasty reputation. I wish I knew why.

    I'm really curious to find the differences between AAS's that affect SHBG the same way, as Tren and Anadrol (Superdrol), but don't cause nearly the same amount of Gyno hassle.

    For example: Winni and Proviron are so great at lowering SHBG, and are often taken to enhance the effectiveness of a Test cycle, raise free test etc. But I've never heard of Winnie or Proviron causing this problem, as we know they are taken to offset gyno risk! Tendons that snap like dry twigs, yes! But not the Gyno so much. Something else is going on there that doesn't seem to depend solely on SHBG being down. So it must be in combination with PG being up? But then what about Anadrol, wheres the PG? I'd love to know.

    With 19-nors and Tren, we can say they are progesterones and, that the action on PG and PG sensitivity is to blame, in combo with the SHBG lowering. But Interestingly, in another thread on this here board, there was a discussion about SD and Gyno.

    One member interviewed many users and the ones that reported Gyno after SD almost always included and AI in their PCT. The ones who used SERM only, far less Gyno.

    They theorized that it was because of supressed E for too long (on cycle, then into PCT) then came off the AI after PCT, the AI cycles out of the system, then WHAM! Estrogen sensitivity + raised E2 = "delayed gyno"...seemed convincing.
    Bingo. Exactly what I think causes the "delayed gyno" phenomenon. This is especially true with all the OTC PCT users out there. You can't get a true SERM OTC. All the products guys get OTC- Reversitol, Novedex, etc etc - are AIs. You run 4 weeks at a steady dose, estrogen has been killed, test has recovered somewhat, you have a heightened sensitivity to E... That's why if you use an AI in PCT, you absolutle MUST taper down.

    However, if the info in this thread is on target, perhaps it works like this: With a Clomid protocol for example, in basic terms Test rises, but so does E2 to a lesser degree. With a rise in E2 from the Clomid therapy, SHBG rises with it, giving (as Seth said) protective effects in the breast tisue = no gyno.
    Hmmm, I'll buy that.

    Alternatively:
    Post cycle CLOMID + AI would suppress this E2 rise from the clomid and also the SHBG rise with it, also further enhance E2 sensitivity, then a few weeks/months later...delayed gyno. So when PCT is finished: Low SHBG, rising E2, E2 sensitivity...gyno
    Exactly.

    Much like IKEA furniture however, after making this (cough) "theory" there is still an extra part left out...Progesterone. Where does it fit with the Lowered SHBG + E2 sensitivity/rise? Dunno. As hormones normalise, is there a rise in PG also?

    Ok guys, (taking of my Broscientist Lab coat and hat with the mirror thing), off to work.

    Fun thread...I got a bottle SD that I'm keen to use, but I gotta work this out beforehand!
    Progesterone can only cause gyno in the presence of E, so it's a player but only secondarily. However, part of my thinking is that perhaps compounds with strong affinity for the PR receptor can cause gyno in the presence of normal E levels simply because the PR receptor is being activated so strongly - although based on Seth's direct refutation of the Big Cat Tren Theory, maybe Tren compunds don't have this issue. Some others may, however.

    Finally, don't forget about prolactin! I still believe it can be a growth factor, similar to PR above. High prolactin can cause lactation/breast growth even in the presence of "normal" levels of E. Check out the link I posted above. Obviously anecdotal, but interesting nontheless.

    Great post, BTW.
  34. Banned
    crazyfool405's Avatar
    Stats
    5'10"  198 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    7,431
    Rep Power
    0

    Reputation
  35. New Member
    Brenn's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  223 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    95
    Rep Power
    283

    Reputation

    Hey Dragon,
    Good stuff there. Especially the bit about the Prolactin. I read the post you linked to as well, interesting reading. Here's a question: Is prolactin always estrogen induced, or is it (as the T-nation article mentions) possibly a separate action of a mal-functioning pituitary? I hope by addressing E2 we are addressing MOST of the problem.

    All this leaves me wondering about alternative methods of controlling this gyno problem. Perhaps including low-dosed AAS like Winstrol in a Tren or Tren-like stack would impart some of it's "moob"-protective benefits on-cycle? Or will this drive SHBG into a deep and dangerous hole, that results in Double-D's. Wish I knew!

    I've always been old-school with this stuff: I use the lowest dose necessarry to get the result I want. Stop when the weight I want is achieved or continue a bit longer if it is not. I'd love to try these Tren designers, but need more answers. Nothing is worth wrecked pecs, IMO. It takes away from the look I'm going for
  36. New Member
    spiderduncan's Avatar
    Stats
    5'11"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2006
    Age
    38
    Posts
    357
    Rep Power
    378

    Reputation

    Subscribed for more information.
  37. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Dragon13 View Post
    Progesterone can only cause gyno in the presence of E, so it's a player but only secondarily. However, part of my thinking is that perhaps compounds with strong affinity for the PR receptor can cause gyno in the presence of normal E levels simply because the PR receptor is being activated so strongly - although based on Seth's direct refutation of the Big Cat Tren Theory, maybe Tren compunds don't have this issue. Some others may, however.

    Finally, don't forget about prolactin! I still believe it can be a growth factor, similar to PR above. High prolactin can cause lactation/breast growth even in the presence of "normal" levels of E. Check out the link I posted above. Obviously anecdotal, but interesting nontheless.

    Great post, BTW.
    There is no evidence that progesterone causes gyno, even in the presence of estrogen. That is not to say that it is not possible. High prolactin levels will cause problems -- possibly even in the presence of "normal" levels of estrogen but unless you have a blood test showing elevated prolactin levels, I would assume estrogen first, prolactin last. At this point we have a ton of people blindly using caber and bromo (and even profilactively in some cases) with no evidence of prolactin elevation which has the possibility of seriously screwing up your pituitary.
  38. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenn View Post
    Hey Mass69, Roger that, very true. I mentioned those Trens and Anadrol as they seem to lower SHBG AND result in problems for many folks. (AD50 I really enjoyed when I was younger BTW). For some reason, other SHBG lowering AAS don't seem to have the same nasty reputation. I wish I knew why.

    I'm really curious to find the differences between AAS's that affect SHBG the same way, as Tren and Anadrol (Superdrol), but don't cause nearly the same amount of Gyno hassle.

    For example: Winni and Proviron are so great at lowering SHBG, and are often taken to enhance the effectiveness of a Test cycle, raise free test etc. But I've never heard of Winnie or Proviron causing this problem, as we know they are taken to offset gyno risk! Tendons that snap like dry twigs, yes! But not the Gyno so much. Something else is going on there that doesn't seem to depend solely on SHBG being down. So it must be in combination with PG being up? But then what about Anadrol, wheres the PG? I'd love to know.

    With 19-nors and Tren, we can say they are progesterones and, that the action on PG and PG sensitivity is to blame, in combo with the SHBG lowering. But Interestingly, in another thread on this here board, there was a discussion about SD and Gyno.

    One member interviewed many users and the ones that reported Gyno after SD almost always included and AI in their PCT. The ones who used SERM only, far less Gyno.

    They theorized that it was because of supressed E for too long (on cycle, then into PCT) then came off the AI after PCT, the AI cycles out of the system, then WHAM! Estrogen sensitivity + raised E2 = "delayed gyno"...seemed convincing.

    However, if the info in this thread is on target, perhaps it works like this: With a Clomid protocol for example, in basic terms Test rises, but so does E2 to a lesser degree. With a rise in E2 from the Clomid therapy, SHBG rises with it, giving (as Seth said) protective effects in the breast tisue = no gyno.

    Alternatively:
    Post cycle CLOMID + AI would suppress this E2 rise from the clomid and also the SHBG rise with it, also further enhance E2 sensitivity, then a few weeks/months later...delayed gyno. So when PCT is finished: Low SHBG, rising E2, E2 sensitivity...gyno

    Much like IKEA furniture however, after making this (cough) "theory" there is still an extra part left out...Progesterone. Where does it fit with the Lowered SHBG + E2 sensitivity/rise? Dunno. As hormones normalise, is there a rise in PG also?

    Ok guys, (taking of my Broscientist Lab coat and hat with the mirror thing), off to work.

    Fun thread...I got a bottle SD that I'm keen to use, but I gotta work this out beforehand!
    You should pick up a copy of my book. I think it does a pretty good job of laying all of this out and gives several reasons for the difference in activity of different AAS.

    Commercials aside Proviron is a really strong binder of SHBG but I have never seen any evidence that proviron decreases SHBG levels. But then again, people tend to stack mesterolone with aromatizing steroids. Winstrol reduces SHBG and we see that in the literature, but the reduction is not that severe -- only about 50%. Stronger androgens can decreases SHBG levels to only about 10% of control values - In one study, Anadrol reduced SHBG levels by 55 nmol/L which is a major decrease.
  39. New Member
    Brenn's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  223 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2008
    Posts
    95
    Rep Power
    283

    Reputation

    Hi Seth,
    I'm already on it! Looking into getting a copy now.

    Ah, correct sir, I mis-spoke!...Proviron binds SHBG, not lowers it. Winnie lowers it, but not like Anadrol. Check.

    Does bound SHBG have any protective benefit in the breast or otherwise?

    Until this thread, I wasn't aware that SHBG had any role at all in gyno. I always thought SHBG was a biological verison of pure-evil, put on us by an angry God.

    Thanks for taking the time, Seth. Looking forward to your book.
  40. Advanced Member
    sethroberts's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2003
    Age
    41
    Posts
    863
    Rep Power
    604

    Reputation

    Quote Originally Posted by Brenn View Post
    Hi Seth,
    I'm already on it! Looking into getting a copy now.

    Ah, correct sir, I mis-spoke!...Proviron binds SHBG, not lowers it. Winnie lowers it, but not like Anadrol. Check.

    Does bound SHBG have any protective benefit in the breast or otherwise?

    Until this thread, I wasn't aware that SHBG had any role at all in gyno. I always thought SHBG was a biological verison of pure-evil, put on us by an angry God.

    Thanks for taking the time, Seth. Looking forward to your book.
    Until recently, that is pretty much what I thought too. You have to realize that SHBG is not "bound" per se. It is in flux between being bound and unbound in an equilibrium state.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Prolactin Sides with Low Prolactin Levels?!?
    By Jarred28 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 02-07-2013, 02:58 AM
  2. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 01-18-2011, 07:51 PM
  3. Prolactin/Progesterone Help????
    By srx600 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 07-22-2007, 08:08 AM
  4. Replies: 12
    Last Post: 08-09-2006, 11:52 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  
Log in
Log in