Progesterone and Prolactin

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by Primordial Perf View Post

    You have some interesting theory’s and I can agree with most of what you are saying, but I have to make it clear to the members that there other point of views on this subject… simply because I have a vested interest that my customer don’t have gyno symptoms when using our products.
    I don't mean to be crabby, but my "interesting theory's" are built on 19+ years of personal experience combined with an extensive knowledge of physiology and pharmacology as well as 10+ years in the lab so when someone comes along asserting somethign to be fact based on personal experience alone and question my knowledge, I get a little miffed.

    quotes like this one "If you are referring to a stimulus effect at the female hypothalamus/pituitary of estrogen or progesterone, I hope you’re not assuming this stimulatory effect applies to males." don't help.


  2. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    your previous quote:
    i was on epi as well as npp, and test, i stopped the epi and im still on npp and test and within 24 hours, my gyno came back

    Ok, you said you were on epi, mpp and test you stopped epi and within 24 hours gyno came back, so this was three months after what?
    alright ill give you the scoop lol ill just post it all in here,

    i ran PPlex mdrol bridge as you know and i ended up geting gyno about 1 week before my next cycle which was and still is....


    My History and current status
    For all of you who have followed my previous log you know whats going on. I havent posted in there for a while so im going to start a discussion, not a flame, nothing of the sort but explain what i did (which you should not do), and the current stack i am doing

    History: (here goes another one thread)

    Week 1-5 test E 500mg
    Week 6-12 .6 mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test E (350mg)
    Week 12-17 .6mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test C (350mg), 3mL NPP (300mg)
    Week 18-25/26 .6mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test C (350mg), 2 mL Tren A (200mg)
    week 1-3 EQT2 (3 caps)
    week 3-5 Hdrol (3 caps)
    week 2-5 Trenadrol (2/2/3/3)
    Week 10-13 Epithin E (3/3/3/4)


    ob viously long yadda yadda, i know how everyone will react, im going from bulk to cut....

    i havent started tren yet
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    alright ill give you the scoop lol ill just post it all in here,

    i ran PPlex mdrol bridge as you know and i ended up geting gyno about 1 week before my next cycle which was and still is....


    My History and current status
    For all of you who have followed my previous log you know whats going on. I havent posted in there for a while so im going to start a discussion, not a flame, nothing of the sort but explain what i did (which you should not do), and the current stack i am doing

    History: (here goes another one thread)

    Week 1-5 test E 500mg
    Week 6-12 .6 mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test E (350mg)
    Week 12-17 .6mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test C (350mg), 3mL NPP (300mg)
    Week 18-25/26 .6mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test C (350mg), 2 mL Tren A (200mg)
    week 1-3 EQT2 (3 caps)
    week 3-5 Hdrol (3 caps)
    week 2-5 Trenadrol (2/2/3/3)
    Week 10-13 Epithin E (3/3/3/4)


    ob viously long yadda yadda, i know how everyone will react, im going from bulk to cut....

    i havent started tren yet
    so you got gyno while you were still on the bridge it went away on the EQT2 and then when you went off it came back? Sorry -- difficult to follow

  4. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    so you got gyno while you were still on the bridge it went away on the EQT2 and then when you went off it came back? Sorry -- difficult to follow
    got gyno 1 week before EQT2, treated with adex through my cycle up until epithin E, (5a reduced has an atangonist effect on e2 from what i read mild AI prop) and within 1 day of stopping it, it came back full force, now im treating again with adex,

    hope that cleared it up

    BTW you need anyguinie pigs to help do any studies lol im down

  5. yeah...i cant really keep up either crazy....
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    yeah...i cant really keep up either crazy....
    AHHH i hate not being understood lol

    my last post didnt clear it up?

  7. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    got gyno 1 week before EQT2, treated with adex through my cycle up until epithin E, (5a reduced has an atangonist effect on e2 from what i read mild AI prop) and within 1 day of stopping it, it came back full force, now im treating again with adex,

    hope that cleared it up

    BTW you need anyguinie pigs to help do any studies lol im down
    Clears it up for me I think. It seems to be nothing outside of normal estrogen related gyno. The phera and superdrol suppresss SHBG levels freeing up estradiol and estrone as well as removing the protective effect of SHBG and probably stimulating DHEA production in the adrenal which can have some estrogneic activity of its own without conversion. So this initiated the gyno one week before starting. the epithiostanol probably has some AI ability but likely also acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist which is why you saw symptoms as soon as you went off. The AI will help with the production of estrogen, but it does nothing for the circulating pool of estrogen, especially in the form of estrone sulfate which can be very long lived.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    Clears it up for me I think. It seems to be nothing outside of normal estrogen related gyno. The phera and superdrol suppresss SHBG levels freeing up estradiol and estrone as well as removing the protective effect of SHBG and probably stimulating DHEA production in the adrenal which can have some estrogneic activity of its own without conversion. So this initiated the gyno one week before starting. the epithiostanol probably has some AI ability but likely also acts as an estrogen receptor antagonist which is why you saw symptoms as soon as you went off. The AI will help with the production of estrogen, but it does nothing for the circulating pool of estrogen, especially in the form of estrone sulfate which can be very long lived.
    soo some I3C later on can help in that area right>

  9. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    soo some I3C later on can help in that area right>
    I doubt it is potent enough.

  10. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    AHHH i hate not being understood lol

    my last post didnt clear it up?
    we posted at the same time....i didnt see that last one....oh and im scrolling impaired..

  11. so in crazy's case seth would you recomend a combination like adex/nolva in low doses?...or something elase entirely

  12. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    I would caution against "reducing" estrogen as I do think that AIs may be partially to blame. "Controlling" estrogen is preferable and I am partial to SERMS for this purpose. Especially for non-aromatizing or low aromatizing compounds because the reduction in SHBG and the increased "free" estrogens will not be helped by AI's.
    I got 2 small lumps under my nipple after a month of my PCT using Nolvadex. (cycle was tren/hdrol) I never been prone to gyno nor had it before. I have no clue what happened, but i just came up with my own conclusion that estrogen elevated again...

    So you think if i used a low dose of AI after i stopped that SERM would have brought me different results?

  13. People started invoking "new" mechanisms for the induction of gyno in the late 1990's -- As far as I know, I was one of the first people proposing progesterone receptor activation as a potential cause of gyno back then. I have changed my mind since then as I have accumulated knowledge over the years. There is no evidence that progesterone or prolactin intitiate gynecomastia but plenty of evidence that estrogen does. All of this stemmed fro mthe fact that people were complaining of gyno from anadrol but also fron tren and nandrolone none of which were supposed to convert to estrogen. What I realized a while ago is that there is no need to invoke exotic mechanisms. Pher and superdrol do not convert to estrogen (nor does tren or anadrol) but they do suppress SHBG. SHBG is actually protective against breast tissue growth beyond just sequestering estrogens (you can read more about this in my book ). The removal of this protective effect as weel as the increase in "free" estrogen from the reduction in SHBG can explain some of the propensity for forming gyno with these compounds. With nandrolone, trenbolone, and other 19-norsteroids, there is also the added production of 5-alpha reduced metabolites that are weak androgens (there is some evidence that tren is metabolized in this fashion) which upstes the androgen to estrogen rati and further contributes to the ability to produce gyno.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    so in crazy's case seth would you recomend a combination like adex/nolva in low doses?...or something elase entirely
    I am not a fan of AIs - they tend to suppress estrogen too low and SHBG with it not to mention the effects on cholesterol etc.

    In that situation, I would probably have used nolva throughout and into PCT.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    I doubt it is potent enough.

    what else can lower estrone sulfate levels....

  16. When I was on a sust/deca cycle I had some first signs of gyno like symptoms. Note I say signs as there were never a lump or discharge that developed. What I do know is that nolva took care of ALL of the symptoms in quick fashion. I also used it along with clomid for pct. This was a year ago and never had issue since.

    That said I am week 3 into m-drol cycle and am using a-dex at very low dose and am taking low dose vitex and am have zero sensations in nipple area. I make sure bodyfat is always below 12 percent before starting any cycle as I think this helps.

    Just shows that there are a few ways to skin a cat.

  17. Quote Originally Posted by mooch2321 View Post
    we posted at the same time....i didnt see that last one....oh and im scrolling impaired..
    LOL!

    This thread is awesome BTW..

  18. what about the study showing nolva causes sperm damage? im still young when i recover i dont want that to recover and have poor sperm

  19. Quote Originally Posted by Problem View Post
    I got 2 small lumps under my nipple after a month of my PCT using Nolvadex. (cycle was tren/hdrol) I never been prone to gyno nor had it before. I have no clue what happened, but i just came up with my own conclusion that estrogen elevated again...

    So you think if i used a low dose of AI after i stopped that SERM would have brought me different results?
    You may have needed a longer course of nolva since your SHBG levels probably had not recovered by the time you came off. I doubt an AI would have helped since it was probably not production of estrogen that was the problem. I generally believe that 20 mg of nolva is enough but there are circumstances where 40 or 60 mg would be appropriate. These strong androgen cycles are sometimes worst than aromatizing androgens because they can suppress SHBG levels so low.

  20. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    what else can lower estrone sulfate levels....
    a sulfotransferase inhibitor or a 17 beta hydroxysteroid dehydrogenase inhibitor to prevent the back conversion of estrone to estradiol -- both of which are in development for breast cancer.

  21. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    People started invoking "new" mechanisms for the induction of gyno in the late 1990's -- As far as I know, I was one of the first people proposing progesterone receptor activation as a potential cause of gyno back then. I have changed my mind since then as I have accumulated knowledge over the years. There is no evidence that progesterone or prolactin intitiate gynecomastia but plenty of evidence that estrogen does. All of this stemmed fro mthe fact that people were complaining of gyno from anadrol but also fron tren and nandrolone none of which were supposed to convert to estrogen. What I realized a while ago is that there is no need to invoke exotic mechanisms. Pher and superdrol do not convert to estrogen (nor does tren or anadrol) but they do suppress SHBG. SHBG is actually protective against breast tissue growth beyond just sequestering estrogens (you can read more about this in my book ). The removal of this protective effect as weel as the increase in "free" estrogen from the reduction in SHBG can explain some of the propensity for forming gyno with these compounds. With nandrolone, trenbolone, and other 19-norsteroids, there is also the added production of 5-alpha reduced metabolites that are weak androgens (there is some evidence that tren is metabolized in this fashion) which upstes the androgen to estrogen rati and further contributes to the ability to produce gyno.
    I wonder about all these people claiming gyno while using Nolva, and how this would all change if people used PHARM GRADE medicines rather then these research chems.

  22. Quote Originally Posted by animaleater2 View Post
    When I was on a sust/deca cycle I had some first signs of gyno like symptoms. Note I say signs as there were never a lump or discharge that developed. What I do know is that nolva took care of ALL of the symptoms in quick fashion. I also used it along with clomid for pct. This was a year ago and never had issue since.

    That said I am week 3 into m-drol cycle and am using a-dex at very low dose and am taking low dose vitex and am have zero sensations in nipple area. I make sure bodyfat is always below 12 percent before starting any cycle as I think this helps.

    Just shows that there are a few ways to skin a cat.
    That is true and it is true that in men the majority of aromatase activity comes from adipose (but not all). I am concerned that opamine manipulation may be contributing to the increased incidence of "gyno" and "lactating" though.

  23. Quote Originally Posted by crazyfool405 View Post
    what about the study showing nolva causes sperm damage? im still young when i recover i dont want that to recover and have poor sperm
    It also inhibits cholesterol side chain cleavage. Don't you think androgens have the potential to cause sperm damage. There are risks involeved to using all of these medications.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by imprezivr6 View Post
    I wonder about all these people claiming gyno while using Nolva, and how this would all change if people used PHARM GRADE medicines rather then these research chems.
    Very good point. Even the "legal" OTC stuff has the potential to be contaminated. How many of these cases of tren gyno are the result of contamination or substitution?

  25. Quote Originally Posted by sethroberts View Post
    It also inhibits cholesterol side chain cleavage. Don't you think androgens have the potential to cause sperm damage. There are risks involeved to using all of these medications.
    o of course!!! but in recovery i dont want to be damaging my sperm i did enough on cycle.
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