Progesterone and Prolactin
- 04-21-2009, 01:50 PM
Im not sure what your implying by saying Vitex has “estrogenic” or “progestational” effects. Im not aware of any research that shows any constituent of Vitex having agonistic action at the PR or ER.
If you are referring to a stimulus effect at the female hypothalamus/pituitary of estrogen or progesterone, I hope you’re not assuming this stimulatory effect applies to males.
- 04-21-2009, 01:53 PM
- 04-21-2009, 02:01 PM
I have plenty of experience with Trenbolone, nandrolone and dienolone base and I can say without a doubt that dienolone has characteristics closer related to Trenbolone than nandrolone. The dry gains, hot flashes, potent CNS activation, insomnia, ect… (Even the compounds characteristics are similar - yellowish hue, burns the mucous membranes, ect)
04-21-2009, 02:13 PM
I can also tell you from personal experience that Nolva is a very poor choice for combating progestin related gyno. It simply doesn’t work.
I wouldn’t call it misinterpretation of the literature either. Nolva up regulates progesterone receptor. If it does it in the endometrium, this is enough reason for me to suspect it also does it in breast tissue. (but of course, I can’t force anyone to adopt my logic)
I also suspect (although have no references) that other SERM’s may up-regulate the progesterone receptor similar to nolvadex. I simply have fallen out of favor of using SERMs for the treatment of gyno, especially progestin based gyno.
As I have said already, I have most success with suppressing prolactin or estrogen, and reducing the total stimulatory action on mammary gland via these mechanisms.
You have some interesting theory’s and I can agree with most of what you are saying, but I have to make it clear to the members that there other point of views on this subject… simply because I have a vested interest that my customer don’t have gyno symptoms when using our products.
I say use Vitex if you are using 19-nor, and an possibly an AI if an aromatizable steroid is used.
Effects of tamoxifen on steroid hormone receptors and hormone concentration and the results of DNA analysis by flow cytometry in endometrial carcinoma.
M Nola, et al
Gynecol Oncol, Mar 1999; 72(3): 331-6.
Tamoxifen increases the plasma estrogen-binding equivalents and has an estradiol agonistic effect on histologically normal premenopausal and postmenopausal
Gorodeski, G.I., et al.
endometrium. Fertil. Steril, 57, 320-327. (1992)
Estrogen and progesterone receptor expressors o£ decidual endometrium in a postmenopausal woman treated with tamoxifen and megestrol acetate.
Cohen, I., Shulman, A., Altaras, M., Tepper, R., Cordoba, M. and Beyth, Y.
Gynecol. Obstet. Invest., 38, 127-129. (1994)
04-21-2009, 05:35 PM
Evaluation of estrogenic activity of plant extracts for the potential treatment of menopausal symptoms.Liu J, Burdette JE, Xu H, Gu C, van Breemen RB, Bhat KP, Booth N, Constantinou AI, Pezzuto JM, Fong HH, Farnsworth NR, Bolton JL.
Department of Medicinal Chemistry and Pharmacognosy, UIC/NIH Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research, College of Pharmacy, M/C 781, University of Illinois at Chicago, 833 South Wood Street, Chicago, Illinois 60612, USA.
Eight botanical preparations that are commonly used for the treatment of menopausal symptoms were tested for estrogenic activity. Methanol extracts of red clover (Trifolium pratense L.), chasteberry (Vitex agnus-castus L.), and hops (Humulus lupulus L.) showed significant competitive binding to estrogen receptors alpha (ER alpha) and beta (ER beta). With cultured Ishikawa (endometrial) cells, red clover and hops exhibited estrogenic activity as indicated by induction of alkaline phosphatase (AP) activity and up-regulation of progesterone receptor (PR) mRNA. Chasteberry also stimulated PR expression, but no induction of AP activity was observed. In S30 breast cancer cells, pS2 (presenelin-2), another estrogen-inducible gene, was up-regulated in the presence of red clover, hops, and chasteberry. Interestingly, extracts of Asian ginseng (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer) and North American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius L.) induced pS2 mRNA expression in S30 cells, but no significant ER binding affinity, AP induction, or PR expression was noted in Ishikawa cells. Dong quai [Angelica sinensis (Oliv.) Diels] and licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra L.) showed only weak ER binding and PR and pS2 mRNA induction. Black cohosh [Cimicifuga racemosa (L.) Nutt.] showed no activity in any of the above in vitro assays. Bioassay-guided isolation utilizing ER competitive binding as a monitor and screening using ultrafiltration LC-MS revealed that genistein was the most active component of red clover. Consistent with this observation, genistein was found to be the most effective of four red clover isoflavones tested in the above in vitro assays. Therefore, estrogenic components of plant extracts can be identified using assays for estrogenic activity along with screening and identification of the active components using ultrafiltration LC-MS. These data suggest a potential use for some dietary supplements, ingested by human beings, in the treatment of menopausal symptoms.
1: Pak J Biol Sci. 2007 Jul 15;10(14):2300-7.Links
The effects of Vitex agnus castus extract and its interaction with dopaminergic system on LH and testosterone in male mice.Nasri S, Oryan S, Rohani AH, Amin GR.
Department of Biology, Parand Branch, Azad University, Tehran, Iran.
The purpose of this study was to evaluate the probable effects of Vitex agnus castus (Vac.) on the male reproductive physiology. It is a well known fact that LH secretion from the anterior pituitary of mammals is controlled by many neurotransmiters such as dopamine. In this experiment, we have studied the effect of Vac. extract on the LH and testosterone hormones and its interaction with the dopaminergic system on male mice. In order to evaluate these effects, we used the hydroalcoholic Vac. extract (for extraction we used percolation technique) injection with the following doses: 65, 165, 265, 365 and 465 mg kg-', bromocriptine as a dopamine receptor agonist (5, 10, 20 mg kg(-1)) and haloperidol as a dopamine receptor antagonist (1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 mg kg(-1)). To study the interaction between Vac. extract and dopaminergic system, we injected the optimum doses of Vac. with bromocriptine or haloperidol at the same time. Intraperitoneal injections were applied in all experiments, once a day for 30 days. The control group remained intact and the sham group received vehicle. After the last injection, we collected the animal blood serums for hormonal assays. LH and testosterone were measured by Radio Immuno Assay (RIA). LH and testosterone, showed significant decrease in bromocriptine group and haloperidol increased these hormones. Vac. extract decreased significantly the LH and testosterone levels. The coadministration of Vac. extract and bromocriptine decreased LH and testosterone. Coadministration of Vac. extract and haloperidol decreased LH and testosterone levels. These results suggest: dopamine regulates the gonadotroph-leydig cells axis. It appears that Vac. exertes effects through dopaminergic system and other pathways. The findings of this study show we can use Vac. extract for pathological cases of increasing LH and testosterone.
04-21-2009, 05:36 PM
04-21-2009, 05:41 PM
04-21-2009, 05:43 PM
Your personal experience of the end effects means nothing in the face of binding data to the contrary. Anecdotal information is useful but does not trump controlled scientific data. Oh, so it has a yellowish hue and burns the musuc membranes -- you just described probably >10,000 unrelated compounds.
04-21-2009, 05:54 PM
04-21-2009, 05:59 PM
i was on epi as well as npp, and test, i stopped the epi and im still on npp and test and within 24 hours, my gyno came back
Ok, you said you were on epi, mpp and test you stopped epi and within 24 hours gyno came back, so this was three months after what?
04-21-2009, 06:08 PM
quotes like this one "If you are referring to a stimulus effect at the female hypothalamus/pituitary of estrogen or progesterone, I hope you’re not assuming this stimulatory effect applies to males." don't help.
04-21-2009, 06:14 PM
i ran PPlex mdrol bridge as you know and i ended up geting gyno about 1 week before my next cycle which was and still is....
My History and current status
For all of you who have followed my previous log you know whats going on. I havent posted in there for a while so im going to start a discussion, not a flame, nothing of the sort but explain what i did (which you should not do), and the current stack i am doing
History: (here goes another one thread)
Week 1-5 test E 500mg
Week 6-12 .6 mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test E (350mg)
Week 12-17 .6mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test C (350mg), 3mL NPP (300mg)
Week 18-25/26 .6mL ST450 (260mg), 1.4mL Test C (350mg), 2 mL Tren A (200mg)
week 1-3 EQT2 (3 caps)
week 3-5 Hdrol (3 caps)
week 2-5 Trenadrol (2/2/3/3)
Week 10-13 Epithin E (3/3/3/4)
ob viously long yadda yadda, i know how everyone will react, im going from bulk to cut....
i havent started tren yet
04-21-2009, 06:20 PM
04-21-2009, 06:26 PM
hope that cleared it up
BTW you need anyguinie pigs to help do any studies lol im down
04-21-2009, 06:27 PM
yeah...i cant really keep up either crazy....
04-21-2009, 06:33 PM
04-21-2009, 06:34 PM
04-21-2009, 06:43 PM
04-21-2009, 06:46 PM
04-21-2009, 06:48 PM
04-21-2009, 06:51 PM
so in crazy's case seth would you recomend a combination like adex/nolva in low doses?...or something elase entirely
04-21-2009, 06:52 PM
So you think if i used a low dose of AI after i stopped that SERM would have brought me different results?
04-21-2009, 06:52 PM
People started invoking "new" mechanisms for the induction of gyno in the late 1990's -- As far as I know, I was one of the first people proposing progesterone receptor activation as a potential cause of gyno back then. I have changed my mind since then as I have accumulated knowledge over the years. There is no evidence that progesterone or prolactin intitiate gynecomastia but plenty of evidence that estrogen does. All of this stemmed fro mthe fact that people were complaining of gyno from anadrol but also fron tren and nandrolone none of which were supposed to convert to estrogen. What I realized a while ago is that there is no need to invoke exotic mechanisms. Pher and superdrol do not convert to estrogen (nor does tren or anadrol) but they do suppress SHBG. SHBG is actually protective against breast tissue growth beyond just sequestering estrogens (you can read more about this in my book ). The removal of this protective effect as weel as the increase in "free" estrogen from the reduction in SHBG can explain some of the propensity for forming gyno with these compounds. With nandrolone, trenbolone, and other 19-norsteroids, there is also the added production of 5-alpha reduced metabolites that are weak androgens (there is some evidence that tren is metabolized in this fashion) which upstes the androgen to estrogen rati and further contributes to the ability to produce gyno.
04-21-2009, 06:54 PM
04-21-2009, 06:54 PM
04-21-2009, 06:55 PM
When I was on a sust/deca cycle I had some first signs of gyno like symptoms. Note I say signs as there were never a lump or discharge that developed. What I do know is that nolva took care of ALL of the symptoms in quick fashion. I also used it along with clomid for pct. This was a year ago and never had issue since.
That said I am week 3 into m-drol cycle and am using a-dex at very low dose and am taking low dose vitex and am have zero sensations in nipple area. I make sure bodyfat is always below 12 percent before starting any cycle as I think this helps.
Just shows that there are a few ways to skin a cat.
04-21-2009, 06:56 PM
04-21-2009, 06:57 PM
what about the study showing nolva causes sperm damage? im still young when i recover i dont want that to recover and have poor sperm
04-21-2009, 06:58 PM
04-21-2009, 06:59 PM
04-21-2009, 07:00 PM
04-21-2009, 07:01 PM
04-21-2009, 07:04 PM
04-21-2009, 07:06 PM
04-21-2009, 07:24 PM
04-21-2009, 07:29 PM
This thread is very informative and confusing at the same time. There are so many different theories that once you think you have a good understanding on how to prevent certain things, you read a different (yet still legit) opinion.
04-21-2009, 08:46 PM
04-21-2009, 09:15 PM
04-21-2009, 09:18 PM
Im not sure the second study has much relevance. I’m not recommending vitex for PCT.
04-21-2009, 09:27 PM
AR binding data is the ultimate tell all of a steroids effects eh? Interesting...
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