Progesterone and Prolactin
- 04-20-2009, 05:58 PM
Vites has been shown to have estrogenic and progestational effects in addition to its prolactin lowering potential. With this mix of activities, it is difficutl to say what effect it is having and if it may be causing more harm than good.
- 04-20-2009, 06:09 PM
04-20-2009, 06:12 PM
04-20-2009, 06:17 PM
04-20-2009, 06:20 PM
04-20-2009, 06:22 PM
04-20-2009, 06:27 PM
04-20-2009, 06:33 PM
04-20-2009, 07:03 PM
I posted a comment in that thread. That is a classic case of misinterpretation of the literature. Nolvadex may increase progesterone receptors in the uterus but not likely in the breast. Just because something happens in one tissue type does not mean it will happen in all types -- that is what makes different tissues and organs different! Also, most papers I see show tamoxifen downregulating estrogen receptors in the breast so a slight increase in progesterone receptors would likely not be a problem.
04-20-2009, 07:05 PM
so seth...if lactation is occuring, its not neccesarily high levels of prolactin but the difference in the levels of estrogen and prolactin....how should this be treated at this point....let estrogen levels raise or take a prolactin antagonist? Couldnt we be causing other problems by letting estrogen rebound?
04-20-2009, 07:11 PM
Obviously the idea would be to not get to the point of either getting gyno or lactating but I think sometimes people get too overzealous in the other direction and wind up causing themselves harm through polypharmacy.
04-20-2009, 07:20 PM
can you define truly occuring....if a nipple is squeezed and beads of liquid are excreted would you consider this true lactation or are we looking for more discharge?
04-20-2009, 07:30 PM
04-20-2009, 07:42 PM
04-20-2009, 07:45 PM
Benign galactorrhea/breast discharge in adolescent males probably due to breast self-manipulation.Rohn RD.
Three adolescent males presented with nipple discharge. In two boys, the expressed secretion was clinically consistent with galactorrhea. Galactorrhea/breast discharge is a rare complaint in males of any age. Although galactorrhea is commonly associated with a neuroendocrine disorder or drug ingestion, the work-up in each, including basal prolactin level, was normal. Reluctantly, each by admitted to breast self-manipulation to reduce gynecomastia. When the behavior was discontinued, the galactorrhea/breast secretion ceased. Clinicians should be aware of this heretofore undescribed and apparently benign phenomenon. If basal hyperprolactinemia is absent in a male with a breast discharge and a history of breast manipulation, then an extensive work-up is not usually indicated.
PMID: 6429109 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE
04-21-2009, 02:50 PM
Im not sure what your implying by saying Vitex has “estrogenic” or “progestational” effects. Im not aware of any research that shows any constituent of Vitex having agonistic action at the PR or ER.
If you are referring to a stimulus effect at the female hypothalamus/pituitary of estrogen or progesterone, I hope you’re not assuming this stimulatory effect applies to males.
04-21-2009, 02:53 PM
04-21-2009, 03:01 PM
I have plenty of experience with Trenbolone, nandrolone and dienolone base and I can say without a doubt that dienolone has characteristics closer related to Trenbolone than nandrolone. The dry gains, hot flashes, potent CNS activation, insomnia, ect… (Even the compounds characteristics are similar - yellowish hue, burns the mucous membranes, ect)
04-21-2009, 03:13 PM
I can also tell you from personal experience that Nolva is a very poor choice for combating progestin related gyno. It simply doesn’t work.
I wouldn’t call it misinterpretation of the literature either. Nolva up regulates progesterone receptor. If it does it in the endometrium, this is enough reason for me to suspect it also does it in breast tissue. (but of course, I can’t force anyone to adopt my logic)
I also suspect (although have no references) that other SERM’s may up-regulate the progesterone receptor similar to nolvadex. I simply have fallen out of favor of using SERMs for the treatment of gyno, especially progestin based gyno.
As I have said already, I have most success with suppressing prolactin or estrogen, and reducing the total stimulatory action on mammary gland via these mechanisms.
You have some interesting theory’s and I can agree with most of what you are saying, but I have to make it clear to the members that there other point of views on this subject… simply because I have a vested interest that my customer don’t have gyno symptoms when using our products.
I say use Vitex if you are using 19-nor, and an possibly an AI if an aromatizable steroid is used.
Effects of tamoxifen on steroid hormone receptors and hormone concentration and the results of DNA analysis by flow cytometry in endometrial carcinoma.
M Nola, et al
Gynecol Oncol, Mar 1999; 72(3): 331-6.
Tamoxifen increases the plasma estrogen-binding equivalents and has an estradiol agonistic effect on histologically normal premenopausal and postmenopausal
Gorodeski, G.I., et al.
endometrium. Fertil. Steril, 57, 320-327. (1992)
Estrogen and progesterone receptor expressors o£ decidual endometrium in a postmenopausal woman treated with tamoxifen and megestrol acetate.
Cohen, I., Shulman, A., Altaras, M., Tepper, R., Cordoba, M. and Beyth, Y.
Gynecol. Obstet. Invest., 38, 127-129. (1994)
04-21-2009, 06:35 PM
Evaluation of estrogenic activity of plant extracts for the potential treatment of menopausal symptoms.Liu J, Burdette JE, Xu H, Gu C, van Breemen RB, Bhat KP, Booth N, Constantinou AI, Pezzuto JM, Fong HH, Farnsworth NR, Bolton JL.
Department of Medicinal Chemistry and Pharmacognosy, UIC/NIH Center for Botanical Dietary Supplements Research, College of Pharmacy, M/C 781, University of Illinois at Chicago, 833 South Wood Street, Chicago, Illinois 60612, USA.
Eight botanical preparations that are commonly used for the treatment of menopausal symptoms were tested for estrogenic activity. Methanol extracts of red clover (Trifolium pratense L.), chasteberry (Vitex agnus-castus L.), and hops (Humulus lupulus L.) showed significant competitive binding to estrogen receptors alpha (ER alpha) and beta (ER beta). With cultured Ishikawa (endometrial) cells, red clover and hops exhibited estrogenic activity as indicated by induction of alkaline phosphatase (AP) activity and up-regulation of progesterone receptor (PR) mRNA. Chasteberry also stimulated PR expression, but no induction of AP activity was observed. In S30 breast cancer cells, pS2 (presenelin-2), another estrogen-inducible gene, was up-regulated in the presence of red clover, hops, and chasteberry. Interestingly, extracts of Asian ginseng (Panax ginseng C.A. Meyer) and North American ginseng (Panax quinquefolius L.) induced pS2 mRNA expression in S30 cells, but no significant ER binding affinity, AP induction, or PR expression was noted in Ishikawa cells. Dong quai [Angelica sinensis (Oliv.) Diels] and licorice (Glycyrrhiza glabra L.) showed only weak ER binding and PR and pS2 mRNA induction. Black cohosh [Cimicifuga racemosa (L.) Nutt.] showed no activity in any of the above in vitro assays. Bioassay-guided isolation utilizing ER competitive binding as a monitor and screening using ultrafiltration LC-MS revealed that genistein was the most active component of red clover. Consistent with this observation, genistein was found to be the most effective of four red clover isoflavones tested in the above in vitro assays. Therefore, estrogenic components of plant extracts can be identified using assays for estrogenic activity along with screening and identification of the active components using ultrafiltration LC-MS. These data suggest a potential use for some dietary supplements, ingested by human beings, in the treatment of menopausal symptoms.
1: Pak J Biol Sci. 2007 Jul 15;10(14):2300-7.Links
The effects of Vitex agnus castus extract and its interaction with dopaminergic system on LH and testosterone in male mice.Nasri S, Oryan S, Rohani AH, Amin GR.
Department of Biology, Parand Branch, Azad University, Tehran, Iran.
The purpose of this study was to evaluate the probable effects of Vitex agnus castus (Vac.) on the male reproductive physiology. It is a well known fact that LH secretion from the anterior pituitary of mammals is controlled by many neurotransmiters such as dopamine. In this experiment, we have studied the effect of Vac. extract on the LH and testosterone hormones and its interaction with the dopaminergic system on male mice. In order to evaluate these effects, we used the hydroalcoholic Vac. extract (for extraction we used percolation technique) injection with the following doses: 65, 165, 265, 365 and 465 mg kg-', bromocriptine as a dopamine receptor agonist (5, 10, 20 mg kg(-1)) and haloperidol as a dopamine receptor antagonist (1, 1.5, 2, 2.5, 3 mg kg(-1)). To study the interaction between Vac. extract and dopaminergic system, we injected the optimum doses of Vac. with bromocriptine or haloperidol at the same time. Intraperitoneal injections were applied in all experiments, once a day for 30 days. The control group remained intact and the sham group received vehicle. After the last injection, we collected the animal blood serums for hormonal assays. LH and testosterone were measured by Radio Immuno Assay (RIA). LH and testosterone, showed significant decrease in bromocriptine group and haloperidol increased these hormones. Vac. extract decreased significantly the LH and testosterone levels. The coadministration of Vac. extract and bromocriptine decreased LH and testosterone. Coadministration of Vac. extract and haloperidol decreased LH and testosterone levels. These results suggest: dopamine regulates the gonadotroph-leydig cells axis. It appears that Vac. exertes effects through dopaminergic system and other pathways. The findings of this study show we can use Vac. extract for pathological cases of increasing LH and testosterone.
04-21-2009, 06:36 PM
04-21-2009, 06:41 PM
04-21-2009, 06:43 PM
Your personal experience of the end effects means nothing in the face of binding data to the contrary. Anecdotal information is useful but does not trump controlled scientific data. Oh, so it has a yellowish hue and burns the musuc membranes -- you just described probably >10,000 unrelated compounds.
04-21-2009, 06:54 PM
04-21-2009, 06:59 PM
i was on epi as well as npp, and test, i stopped the epi and im still on npp and test and within 24 hours, my gyno came back
Ok, you said you were on epi, mpp and test you stopped epi and within 24 hours gyno came back, so this was three months after what?
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