My First Post, First Log, First Cycle (Epi / Tren)
- 03-22-2009, 11:24 AM
My First Post, First Log, First Cycle (Epi / Tren)
Long Time lurker on this and many other forums, primarily for training and nutrition threads - and this forum has proven time and time again to have some of the most reliable experts.
I am 6'0", 31 years old, and currently 202 lbs approximately 14%BF. I have been training for about a decade, although only about 4 years with a strict regimen. In that time, I have gone from 175 to 210, cut back to 185 @ about 7%BF, then bulked back to my current size. I have been an athlete all my life, and have traditionally been blessed with good recovery time, genetics, etc.
I don't typically do 1RM due to some nagging joint issues, but here are my starting PRs:
Dead: 325 x3
BB Bench: 235 x 6
Squat: 315 x 5
My goals on this cycle are to get to 215 without picking up too much BF%. My diet is pretty solid (4,000 calories, 220g protein) I will start a cut when I am on PCT, so this is my last 4 weeks of bulking prior to the diet.
The cycle is 2a,3a-epithio-17a-methyl-17b-hydroxy-5a-etioallocholane (Havoc clone) 30 mg per day AND 19-norandrosta-4,9-diene-3,17-dione (Xtreme Tren) at 90 MG per day. 4 weeks, run concurrently.
Support Sups are:
Milk Thistle (pre-loaded for 2 weeks, then run on cycle as well)
Hawthorne Berry (same idea)
Taurine - will start at a fairly low dose and adjust as back pumps dictate
PCT (will start day after last dose and run for 4 weeks)
AI Post Cycle Support
Test2 - natty test booster includes DHEA, Trib, etc.
- I have nolva on hand, and will add it at the first sign of issues, but do not plan on running it otherwise with this stack.
I will also be running my normal everyday supps throughout including BCAA, CEE, multi vitamin, and joint support.
My split is:
Shoulders / Arms
- repeat -
My workouts are pretty high volume, but revolve around heavy compound movements (deads on back day, BB Bench on chest day, BB squat on leg day, DB shoulder press on shoulder day, weighted dips on arm day, etc.)
Looking for input, critique, feedback from you all, how can I make this more effective, safer, etc. As I mentioned in the title, this is my first time stepping out from simple supplements. I am starting the cycle on April 1... would love some last minute input. I know many of you have run similar cycles, and I have read those logs exhaustively - looking forward to contributing this one to the knowledge base.
- 03-22-2009, 11:38 AM
- 03-22-2009, 11:43 AM
Good luck with your cycle. I am planning on doing a similar one, If I can ever get some Epi. Seems like everyone is sold out. How do plan on dosing it? I am about the same size as you so I am looking forward to hearing your results.
03-22-2009, 12:01 PM
Sounds like a very solid cycle. I have run Epistane solo and I ran Xtreme Tren with P-Plex. I would look into adding some Chasteberry (Vitex) to your cycle supports to help with any prolactin issues.
Good luck with your cycle and logging your progress is a fun experience.
03-22-2009, 01:30 PM
Thanks for the feedback... good point on the Vitex, I missed that.
As for dosing, 30 MG Havoc (10 AM, 10 preworkout, 10 after dinner) and 90 MG Tren (30, 30, 30 - same time as the Havoc) I will be taking both with Fish Oil to get those EFAs.
Also, I am taking a week off from the gym immediately prior to the cycle to make sure I am going in as healthy as possible.
Does anyone have any thoughts on Argenine supplementation during cycle, or is the general consensus that pumps will be fine from the epi and tren alone?
03-31-2009, 07:38 PM
I started my cycle a day early, so today was day 1 officially.
obviously no product feedback yet - I will run this log with workout stats, overall thoughts about the cycle, questions, etc. and not a specific format that I know I wont be able to stick to.
Today's weight, first thing in the AM - 201
Flat BB Bench : Warmup, 225 x 8 / 225 x 8 / 235 x 5
Incline DB press: 70's x 12 / 80's x 9 (was going for 10) / 85's x 7 / 90's x 6
Weighted Dips: BW plus 45 x 8 / BW plus 45 x 8 / BW x 11 - I always do these super strict and slow with a pause at the bottom of the movement
Cable crossovers: High Pulleys 50 x 12 / 60 x 10 Low Pulleys 40 x 8 / 40 x 10
Overall solid workout - No P.R.s on anything, but overall good feeling and plenty of energy for the workout (although I typically dont have issues with that)
Couple of questions / impressions for the group early on
1 - Between support supplements and dosing plus my typical supps (BCAAs, protein) I feel like I am taking pills all day. Is there a preferred spacing between supps like the BCAAs, hawthorne, liver support, etc and the epi and tren? I dont want to do anything to inhibit gains.
2 - I have some Vitex on hand at the suggestion of several of you, should I add this to my support regimen and take it as directed, or should I hold off and only add it if I notice Prolactin gyno symptoms? I searched several logs and am not clear if I should add this in daily - even more pills...
3 - I am currently dosing 30 MG of the epi (10 breakfast, 10 preworkout, 10 before bed) and 90 of tren (same logic, 30, 30, 30) so essentially, I am taking both compounds together 3 times per day. Is this the most effective method? or should I be spacing out the dosages differently?
Thanks in advance for the assistance everyone, and I will endeavor to keep this log updated as frequently as possible as I move forward... I am super excited to start the gains!
03-31-2009, 10:30 PM
i am currently on day 26 of my trenadrol/epi bridge......i agree, it seems like a pain in the a$$ to take all those pills all day. i am 60mgtren and 30mgepi a day. i have lifted since i was 18, and i really like this stuff. i swear to god everyday people are commenting on how i am growing so fast. i have put on 9 lbs since march 6th (i weigh myself in mornings after i piss). good luck with it man. other guys in the gym are on tren extreme alone, and are really liking it. insomnia is hell starting about the 5th day for me. i am up in the middle of the night all the time. so good luck with that.
04-01-2009, 11:02 AM
2. I recommend taking 3 caps of vitex daily along with the doses of your prohormones.
3. I don't like taking them before bed myself. The last dose I took was around 5-6PM. Your call though, but it could affect your sleep taking it that late.
04-01-2009, 11:21 AM
I am on a epi/trenadrol cycle right now. I think the xtren is different but everyone mentions the prolactin issues with both. I am taking B6 a couple times a day too for the prolactin issues. I'm basically taking the same supps as you otherwise. I wondered about the spaceing as well. I've never heard about the milk thistle affecting the hormones. I tak e mine together. I guess I'll change that. Other than that, arginine is probably good anyway, I was taking that at the beginning but ran out and haven't gotten anymore. But as far as pumps, if you're like me, you won't need it. My pumps and vasc. are outrageous. I bridged mine, so that's a bit different than you but I did epi first and that kicked in good after about 2 weeks. I imagine stacking with the tren will speed things up for you.
Good luck! It's awesome.
04-01-2009, 10:46 PM
Day 2 -
Obviously nothing dramatic in the way of results yet, but I thought I would log the workout so I have something to compare with as the weeks go by.
Body weight - 200.5 (AM)
Today's workout was average at best, just dragged ass a little due to some work things.
Pull ups - 8, 8, 8, 7 (I do these super strict, full extension, with a pause at both ends of the movement)
Lat pull downs - super wide grip 130 x 12 140 x 10 160 x 10
DB rows - 80's x 10, 85's x 10, 90's x 10
Hammer Strength iso-lateral row - 4 sets of 8-10 reps (2 sets palms down grip and 2 sets palms facing together grip)
Deadlifts - warmup, 225 x 6, 225 x 6, 275 x 6
Thanks to those who commented to help me with some of those questions... I will add the vitex 3 caps daily (they are 400mg each) and continue with the Hawthorne and Liver Support.
I am super sore from Chest day yesterday, I think that has more to do with too many sets to failure and nothing to do with the supplementation - I am getting a ton of water every day.
Tomorrow is an off-day and I am excited to rest up a bit for Shoulders and Arms on Friday and Legs on Saturday.
04-02-2009, 08:34 AM
my latest results with my trenadrol/epi stack.......i weigh myself in the morning after i piss and take my measurments too......i started march 6th and my weight was 215, arms cold flexed was 17" and calves cold flexed were 15 7/8......just finished my measurments now and weight is 222 (gain of 7lbs) arms 17 9/16 (gain of 9/16 of an inch) and calves were 16 3/8 (gain of 1/2 inch) i am training my guts out and splitting my routines like this......chest/bi....calves/thighs....shoulders/tri's.....calves/back/abs......i am hitting calves twice a week and i am doing deadlifts on back day cause it touches the legs again which calves and thighs are my priority......strength is definately going up......i make my measurements about every 3 weeks, and everytime i eat or train i just keep thinking of measurement day. eating 5 clean high protein meals a day. i gotta say i love it all but the freaking insomnia, which is killing me. my goal is to be around 230 and fairly lean. this is gonna take some time and strict training. DIET DIET DIET i believe is key ingredient when it comes to this stuff. good luck on your stack and gimme some insomnia tips if anyone has any! Well i gotta go, time for plain oatmeal 6 egg whites and 2 whole eggs.....yummy
04-02-2009, 08:53 AM
04-02-2009, 09:12 AM
last dose is around 6 or 7pm.....i have a really hard time falling asleep, and sometimes i will even wake up a 5am and stare at the walls for an hour before i get totally frusturated and get up out of bed and play xbox or something. i will be off this april 15th and then on my pct. while on pct have you ever experienced any insomnia with the test boosting?
04-02-2009, 06:16 PM
Today was off day, much needed.
Insomnia has been an issue for me also, I take my last doses around 8, trying to split them so that I have the compound in my system as much as possible. I am going to move the last dose up a bit today to see if that helps with the sleep. Today I went with 6AM, Noon, and will take the last one around 6PM.
I have also thought about adding some melatonin at night, any feedback on doing that?
On a side note, I have been feeling a bit run down today, almost like I am coming down with a cold or something, just achey and some slight throat pain. I am not suggesting that this has anything to do with the cycle.... just logging in anyway. I took some ziacam a couple times today and some extra vitamin C to try to nip this in the bud.
I have shoulders and arms tomorrow and legs saturday, but if I still feel sore from Back and Chest I may switch those days up to make them both more effective. I would rather not do this though, since historically I like to have leg day and the off day to recover from shoulders before next chest workout.
Side note - No Libido issues at all, actually quite the opposite, although I have read in other logs that these sides typically wont pop up until week 2 or 3.
I read on another board about adding a DHEA / TRIB supplement to this stack on workout days to boost Lutenizing Hormone and help with lethargy.... any opinions on this? Would this accelerate shutdown? would I be better off leaving it alone and saving this supp for PCT (along with the AI and the SERM of course)?... THoughts?
04-02-2009, 06:51 PM
I'm considering running a Tren clone and epi also. I usually do not like to dabble in the Prohormones or any of the orals but all these threads are catching my attention.
It's hard to concentrate when I can hear your thoughts.
04-02-2009, 07:17 PM
04-03-2009, 04:20 PM
Day 4 -
feeling much better, still a bit rundown but a ton better than yesterday.
I forced myself to do shoulders/arms today, even though i still have some killer DOMS from Tuesdays chest workout and it did impact my shoulder training. I just wanted to stay on schedule for legs tomorrow and sunday off before back to to biz on Monday.
warmups - resistance band rotator cuff stuff, arm circles, stretches, etc.
side laterals - super strict and super slow with a pause at the top, perfect form- 25 x 12, 25 x 12, 30 x 8, 30x 8
DB Military Press - warmup, 70 x 10, 75 x 7, 75 x 6
rear delt flyes - with cables - 3 sets of 10
Standing BB curls - super strict and slow with zero sway and as little shoulder and forearm involvement as possible - 80 x 10, 80 x 8, 80 x 8, - rest pause straight into 50x 12
Hammer Strength Preacher Curls 3 sets of 8, 6, 6
weighted dips, narrow grip tricep focus - BW plus 45 for 3 sets of 10-12
Tricep pressdowns, 3 sets of 8
dumbell curls - 35's x 10, 35's x 10, 40's x 7
- Overall, decent workout given the DOMS issue. Was super careful on shoulders (I always am due to a previous injury) and was very strict with controlling the weight, range of motion, etc.
No real feedback or noticeable change that I would attribute to the cycle at this point, other than some insomnia and crazy dreams. I did notice today that I was able to achieve a pump quicker during my arm workout and it seemed to be fuller, my bodyweight is up as of this AM to 203.5, but it could have been water.
I have a basketball game tonight, and I am a bit nervous for that since I have heard that the tren can mess with your conditioning and cardio, we will see.
04-04-2009, 08:10 AM
couple of updates, kind of good news / bad news.
the bad news is that I turned my ankle pretty good last night at my basketball game, swollen up like a grapefruit this morning, even after tons of ice and compression last night. This will definitely mess up my leg day today, I will have to get creative. Hopefully this is just a minor thing and I will be able to support weight on it soon.
ALso, I am starting to notice that "permanent pump" that some other users have reported with this stack. Even first thing in the morning, my muscles feel fuller and tighter, almost like I am a couple sets into a workout at all times.
I didnt hear any feedback on the DHEA / TRIB question above, any thoughts?
04-05-2009, 09:17 AM
Yesterday was leg day, and it was a decent leg workout - despite the bum ankle. I wasnt able to squat (tried a warmup set and the ankle was not having it) and I also had to skip calves, but most of the other stuff I was able to get through with some lighter weight. My ankle is SCREAMING this morning, but I dont have legs for another week so I will have some time to heal hopefully.
Bodyweight this AM after piss completely fasted - 207
my diet has been spot on, I'll classify this as a somewhat "dirty bulk", so I am picking up some extra water weight and body fat I am sure - still, 6 pounds in 6 days is definitely a good start!
The only negative sides I can report so far is a bit of increased agression, but nothing thats unmanagable. THe insomnia is a ton better since I moved my last dose up to 630-730PM.
Today is an off day, and Monday repeats the cycle. This week I am excited to start comparing workout stats to see if strength is moving week over week.
04-05-2009, 09:19 AM
dude your having the same luck i am, i was going way too deep on the heavy squats and messed my right knee up. i take the **** to the floor when i squat, no more of that. i have delt with this in the past, so i will bounce back. nomatter what it seems like there will always be setbacks at times.
04-05-2009, 09:22 AM
Sounds good, like you've done your research, etc. but I think the general dogma is not to switch to cutting diet on PCT. Do your PCT for, whatever 4-6 weeks, keeping your training and diet the same as on cycle. Then after PCT switch to cutting. Maybe some of the more experienced guys can chime in on this issue, I'm still a little green.My goals on this cycle are to get to 215 without picking up too much BF%. My diet is pretty solid (4,000 calories, 220g protein) I will start a cut when I am on PCT, so this is my last 4 weeks of bulking prior to the diet.
04-05-2009, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the note CrazyChem... I was wondering about how a change in macros (moving to a caloric deficit) during PCT would impact my ability to retain strength and LBM gains.
Anyone else have opinions on this issue.
04-05-2009, 10:09 AM
04-05-2009, 09:13 PM
yea i would most definitely not alter your diet to cutting until after your pct. pct is honestly the most important time to eat and eat big, big as if you were still on anabolics, because if your intake is not high enough the gains will disappear soon enough, no matter how much nolva you throw down. for some, diet, significantly protein consumption, is a commonly overlooked piece of pct
04-05-2009, 10:38 PM
will do... thanks for the feedback, its going to be frustrating to put off the cut for another 4 weeks, but I definitely want to hold on to as much of the LBM as possible.
04-06-2009, 06:51 PM
ok, today was Chest workout 2 since cycle began...
AM Bodyweight 208.0
Today's workout was the first time that I saw some serious strength increases since the cycle began. Its tough to do an apples to apples comparison, since I rotate two different chest workouts every other week, so today's exercises were different (last week I did flat BB and incline DB, this week I do BB incline and DB flat) than last week's, but P.R. in Inclline BB Bench and overall feeling / explosiveness is evidence enough for me of some serious gains on the horizon.
Incline Barbell Bench - warmups, 185 x 8, 205 x 8, 225 x 6 (6 reps were super strict, I had no spotter, if I did I could have gone for 7 and maybe 8)
Flat DB press - 90's x 8, 90's x 8, 95's x 7, 100's x 5 (lost a bit of balance on rep 6 and couldnt get it going, not really failure but just missed the "groove")
Weighted DIps - BW plus 45 for 3 sets 8, 8, 8
cable crossovers high pulley position 2 sets of 10
incline hammer strength press 2 sets of 8
Today's workout was awesome, I could tell during my first workset that I was going to try a new PR in Incline Barbell, I have some joint issues that keep me from going for heavy singles, doubles, or triples... 5 or 6 rep maxes are about the heaviest I feel comfortable going for. the 225 felt awesome, It is hard to explain- but it did not feel any lighter at all, just smoother. Almost like rep 4,5 and 6 were just as smooth as rep 1. It is super hard to describe, almost like more gas in the tank.
Tomorrow is back day, I can't wait to get back in the gym.
Here's a new question - I'd like some opinions on my volume. I train each muscle group on a 6 day rotation, so basically once per week. Each workout consists of 2 compound movements where I work up to 5-6 rep ranges, followed by a couple of more isolation or single joint movements. Do you think I am doing too many sets, not enough? etc. based on the workouts listed from last week and today?
04-08-2009, 08:51 PM
Going forward I wont be posting complete workouts, just highlights and comments when I have time....
yesterday was back day. It went well, I was able to get 185 x 8 in pendlay rows and felt overall stronger during pullups also.
Bodyweight up to 209.5 this AM, which is a big gain, but feel like I am gaining a bit of extra body fat as well.
No real sides to report.
04-11-2009, 08:38 AM
bodyweight fluctuated a bit over the past couple of days 208 this morning.
Shoulders and Arms yesterday.
Highlight of the workout was dumbell military 90's x 5 - very slow and controlled. I did feel a bit of joint pain in my left shoulder, and I have learned over the years not to mess with that, so I cut the workout short - just 3 sets for shoulders and a couple of quick arm excercises (BB curls, preacher, Skullcrushers)
More to come....
04-11-2009, 02:22 PM
Keep making that progress man and be sure to not over do it. Sometimes your muscles can handle you lifing heavier than your joints will allow.
04-11-2009, 04:38 PM
ok, here we go!
Day 11 - bodyweight 209
today was Legs (because of my ankle injury that would have been really core and some extensions, leg curls) - but when I got to the gym I felt really good, super alert, a ton of energy - and the place was deserted. The perfect day for a real hardcore workout I did some stretching to assess the readiness of my chest and front delts for another pressing day - (should have been this coming Monday) and felt awesome so decided to make today Chest - Ill hit legs tomorrow and take monday off, resume back day on Tues.
Flat Barbell Bench Press - super slow negative, tight and controlled.
warmups then, 225 x 8 easy, 245 x 6 easy, 255 x 6 felt really good, 275 x 3 very smooth. I had no spotter, otherwise I could have taken that 275 set to failure which might have been 5 or so.
I also worked up to the 100's for 5 good reps in incline DB press.
I tell you, the tren/ epi combo is really kicking in. On top of that, my diet has been on point also.
No new sides to report...
Also, I ordered some Formex to add to my OTC PCT attempt (again I have nolva and torem on hand just in case). THe PCT, as of now, will consist of Reversitol, Lean Xtreme (adding in week 2) Formex, and a natty test booster. I will also add back my staples (creatine mono, beta alanine, etc.) Any thoughts on this type of PCT strategy. I do not suspect that the Formex alone would do the job (based on some logs and early feedback), but in tandem with the actives in Reversitol could be a benefit, or am I on the wrong track here?
04-11-2009, 08:51 PM
Your log is looking good. Im on day 7 of my Epi/Tren cycle. Haven't felt much yet. I like reading your log since your a few days ahead of me, gives me an idea of what to expect in the next few days. My PCT is:
Diesel Test hardcore 2 caps daily
DHEA added in week 2
04-13-2009, 05:32 PM
Had a solid back day today, bodyweight 209.5
highlights of the workout were single arm dumbell rows worked up to 105's for 8 reps, everything else was fairly standard.
I did encounter my first KILLER case of back pumps today though, almost couldnt get bent down to get the weight off the bar after deadlifts - need to bump up the taurine!
04-14-2009, 03:16 PM
04-14-2009, 10:42 PM
Today was shoulders and arms... good workout. No P.R.s attempted, but good overall energy in the gym and good strength.
No issues with back pumps at all today, I bumped the taurine to 5 MG per day.
tomorrow is Legs, then off day, then back to work!
04-15-2009, 03:59 PM
got to track this, really on the fence about a mdrol or havoc/tren cycle.
04-15-2009, 04:48 PM
Weight gain is looking steady, but strength seems kinda stagnate, well, not stagnate, but I figured it to be up a lot more....
Your going to do your cut during pct? I've always been an advocate of keeping as much weight on as possible during pCt.
Back in the day, when I used to run ph/ds, keeping my gained weight during pCt helped with managing heavier weights while being "off". Then, after i recovered (blood work of course reflecting) is when I would start my cut ...
But, if it works, and hopefully it does, good luck with it.
---The internet is the father of the electronic lynch-mob---
04-15-2009, 08:29 PM
thanks for the feedback. I have decided to delay the cut until I complete 5 weeks of PCT. (Toremifene came today by the way).
I have been satisfied with the strength gains so far, I am not one for pushing 1RM because I have had some joint problems in the past (shoulder surgery, knee surgery). I feel a ton stronger in the gym, and the overall more powerful when completing the reps. I will continue to push myself to 3 or 4 rep maxes to see where i can get, but strength is really a secondary goal to size on this cycle for me.
04-16-2009, 08:40 AM
Bodyweight 211 this morning... today is an off day
Yesterday was legs and back pumps were nuts! Other than that, no real sides. I have not experienced any mood issues or lethargy as reported by other loggers. I have begun to experience some reduced libido, nothing crazy, but noticable.
04-16-2009, 08:50 AM
04-16-2009, 03:00 PM
I have not taken measurements, didn't take any ahead of time so wouldnt really have anything to compare them to - But I have noticed size increase pretty much everywhere, especially in my arms and shoulders. I am getting lots of comments from friends and family, and I notice that my shirts are fitting much more snug in the arms, chest and back. I wear a suit everyday for work, and those are definitely more snug across the chest and shoulders.
I dont know how much of that is lean, since I absolutely have picked up some BF% on cycle, will find out after PCT and after cut.
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