Minimum amount of test to see results??

  1. Registered User
    Milo Hobgoblin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    San DIego
    Age
    45
    Posts
    81
    Rep Power
    181

    Minimum amount of test to see results??


    Im planning on starting a long term low dosage cycle of Prop/Test and was curious what the minimum amount per week would be to keep growing without too much water retention/acne/gyno.

    I will probably use very low dosages of Nolva during the entire cycle and small amounts of HCG for a few days every week to minimize atrpohy.

    I will be using 20-30 mg of 1-Methyl test for 2-4 week cycles and taking that ling off from it (so 2-4 weeks on/2-4 weeks off)


    Ideally I was thinking 300mg of prop/cyp every 6 days.


    Cycle will be approx 16 weeks

    thanks.

  2. Registered User
    Jarconis's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    ATX
    Age
    32
    Posts
    765
    Rep Power
    526

    I would think 400mg/wk is about as low as u can go
  3. Registered User
    ManBeast's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  XXX lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Depths of Hell
    Age
    32
    Posts
    6,517
    Rep Power
    48650

    I'll agree there. Anything less is really just HRT.

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
    •   
       

  4. Registered User
    Milo Hobgoblin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    San DIego
    Age
    45
    Posts
    81
    Rep Power
    181

    ...


    so 400mg/wk along with 20 mg/day of 1-MT should do the trick while minimizing sides?
  5. Board Supporter
    raybravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    33
    Posts
    676
    Rep Power
    482

    dont worry about the sides , just do everything right and u will be just fine , and yes , go ahead with what u have planned .
  6. PC1
    PC1 is offline
    Registered User
    PC1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outta Here
    Posts
    367
    Rep Power
    0

    2 Comments...........

    I'm not the most knowledgeable bro on this subject but I do have experience with AS:

    1. I got decent, not great, though decent results on JUST 1cc of test cyp/enanthate on a long term cycle. Remember that 1cc is 100 mg. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong here but I've read that the average man's endogenous (natural) producion is between 8-12 mg a day (that's 56-84mg/wk). So while your 400 mg of test and 20 mg of M1T a day is 540 mg in total........ is not a lot, it's considerably more than we produce on our own.

    2. What's with the Nolva/hcg every few days? Again, someone please correct me if I'm wrong but I've never heard of anyone shooting hcg every few days over the course of a 16 week cycle? And unless there's a history of gyno, I've never heard of anyone taking Nolva that way either?

    I could see hcg every 8 weeks or so? I'd check out Big Cat's hcg profile referenced several times on this board at bb.com. Here's a cut and paste from recommended usage:

    You would normally opt to use HCG after you've done a long cycle, usually 8 weeks or more. Note that almost all proper cycles are 8 weeks or more in length, its just that some beginners have a phobia of needles and opt to waste their time with an all oral stack first, in which case the cycle wouldn't be longer than 6-7 weeks. In these cases too HCG can have a use, but most of the time testicular atrophy will not have progressed to such a stage that it is an absolute necessity. In any case, you should run it about 3 weeks, totaling about 4 shots. One every 5-6 days. Start off with one shot of 3000 IU somewhere in the last week of your stack, then another 3000 5 days later, then drop to 1500 5 days later and a last shot of 1500 6 days after that. Sometime after the second or third shot, therapy with Nolvadex or clomid should be commenced and continued for 4-5 weeks. How to do this, I refer you to the Nolva/clomid profile.

    I don't mean to sound critical, but based on the limited info you've provided, you sound overly paranoid about atrophy. Not that it isn't a very valid concern, but I question whether your proposed usage of Nolva and hcg are really helpful to your concerns?

    I don't wish to sound overly critical, but I think you should read more about these compounds, and maybe get some other advice.

    In any event, good luck
  7. Board Supporter
    raybravo's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Age
    33
    Posts
    676
    Rep Power
    482

    the hcg every week is swale's idea over at cuttingedgemuscle , personally i dont like it , i have people use it either every 4-6 weeks during long cycles ...
    and as far as 100 mg dose goes , when ure going to shut down the htpa either way , might as well come out of the whole thing with something nice to show ...
  8. PC1
    PC1 is offline
    Registered User
    PC1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outta Here
    Posts
    367
    Rep Power
    0

    Raybravo..............

    If it's true that hcg itself throws hpta into negative feedback, what's gained by using it every week over a long term cycle? In time, isn't it contributing to the problem?!

    I understand from your post above that it's swale's method. And truthfully, I've never tried it like that. If he has the results with subjects to back it up, that's fine I suppose.

    Still, it seems counter-intuitive. And I haven't heard of anyone else around here using it like this....... or am I missing something? Or is this something "new and improved"?

    Also on the small amount of test.........

    I agree it's not the best way to achieve results. Only that I did get results on as little as 100 mg a week only. So he shouldn't think 520 mg is anything to sneeze at for a first cycle.
  9. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Southwest Florida
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,913
    Rep Power
    7016

    Originally posted by PC1
    I understand from your post above that it's swale's method. And truthfully, I've never tried it like that. If he has the results with subjects to back it up, that's fine I suppose.

    Still, it seems counter-intuitive. And I haven't heard of anyone else around here using it like this....... or am I missing something? Or is this something "new and improved"?

    Swale runs an HRT clnic which deals with patients who have abuses steroids in the past. Do a search over at CEM for posts on the subject and I'm sure you can find PLENTY of info on why. I discussed it with him awhile ago, along with using AI's post cycle. There is a good explantion in that thread.

    Not many people use it because not many people know. The majority of steroid users follow myths and half-truths. Its innovative thinking at its best
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...et/twitter.png http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...t/facebook.png

    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  10. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Southwest Florida
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,913
    Rep Power
    7016

    Originally posted by PC1
    Raybravo..............

    If it's true that hcg itself throws hpta into negative feedback, what's gained by using it every week over a long term cycle? In time, isn't it contributing to the problem?!

    I understand from your post above that it's swale's method. And truthfully, I've never tried it like that. If he has the results with subjects to back it up, that's fine I suppose.

    Still, it seems counter-intuitive. And I haven't heard of anyone else around here using it like this....... or am I missing something? Or is this something "new and improved"?

    Also on the small amount of test.........

    I agree it's not the best way to achieve results. Only that I did get results on as little as 100 mg a week only. So he shouldn't think 520 mg is anything to sneeze at for a first cycle.
    500mg is relatively low in AAS users. 250mg/week is standard HRT according to Swale, but it is relative to each person. True only 8-12mg is present but thats one point in time, not the totals for a day. I don't think anbone knows that because it constantly changing (metabolizing into other substances).
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...et/twitter.png http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...t/facebook.png

    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  11. Registered User
    prolangtum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    453
    Rep Power
    360

    600mgs has shown to perform best in most studies, especially with satellite cell activity
  12. Running with the Big Boys
    Matthew D's Avatar
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Posts
    5,019
    Rep Power
    0

    That is what I have seen is 600 mg/week or a tad higher..
  13. PC1
    PC1 is offline
    Registered User
    PC1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outta Here
    Posts
    367
    Rep Power
    0

    Bobo, Matthew D, Prolangtun.................... ..

    Thanks guys. I still have some questions on this though:

    1. According to BigCat, HCG itself is suppressive of endogenous testosterone production. I understand the logic of tweaking our own production with HCG every now and again to minimize atrophy. BUT if we're taking HCG every week during a long term cycle, doesn't this defeat the purpose of taking it in the first place since along with exogenous testosterone, it too is suppressing natural production?

    2. Everything else I've ever read on the subject says to NOT take anti-e's DURING a cycle UNLESS one is prone to, or is having a problem with gyno. Reason being that some additional estrogen itself is anabolic and contributes to size and strength gains. I've also read that exogenous testosterone supplemantation even in low-moderate doses is way too suppressive of our endogenous production for anti-e's to be effective at stimulating endogenous supply during exogenous supplementation. Or is this one of the "half-truths" we've been falsely operating under...... and is no longer to be believed? If so, I question it, because Patrick Arnold himself told me directly that is not the case.

    3. I take what you're saying at face value with respect to Swale's results with HRT in long term AS abuse recovery. However, does this apply to the occasional androgen cycler who uses anti-e's like Nolva post cycle for recovery? Are you recommending now that ALL guys use Nolva and HCG DURING and POST cycle in this manner?

    Thanks guys.

    Be well
  14. I am faster than 80% of all snakes
    Dwight Schrute's Avatar
    Stats
    6'1"  221 lbs.
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Southwest Florida
    Age
    41
    Posts
    12,913
    Rep Power
    7016

    I'll try to answer this the best I can right now but honestly I haven't done that much research in this area, just read some posts on the subject.

    1. The point is not to raise testosterone during the cycle but to restore normal (somewhat) functioning of the testes (leydig cells) so when you do come off, your testes are not completely shut down. This way they are functioning at a greater output, so hormone responses along with Testosterone increases more rapidly post cycle. Your basically priming them for post cycle. Your not worred about suppressing Testosterone since your already suprressed. The additive effects of HCG in that area is minimal.

    2. Yes you are correct, an anti-e will have zero effect on raising testosterone during a cycle. But Nolva really doesn't eliminate cirucalting estrogen that much compared to and AI (letro or dex). And you are also correct in that you shouldn't use an Anti-e unles you are prone to gyno. This is allso why I like Nolva because it really doesn't eliminate that much circulating estrogen but will block receptor sites that cause gyno. 20mg EOD will have minimal effect on circualting estrogen ubt will decrease then risk of gyno, if your worried. If not, no need to use it.

    3. No its not needed by all of them. If you using even low doses for LONG peroids then yes, but in shorter cycle its not really needed. THis is more for those using months at a time or using very suppressive substances (tren, deca).
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...et/twitter.png http://anabolicminds.com/forum/image...t/facebook.png

    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  15. PC1
    PC1 is offline
    Registered User
    PC1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outta Here
    Posts
    367
    Rep Power
    0

    Very Interesting, thank you for the clarification, great post thanks again Bobo for all that you and the other mods in here do.

    One concern I'd have about using HCG every week though, even in a long term cycle is based on something BigCat says about LH sensitivity. Here's an excerpt from his profile on hcg:

    The downside is that HCG too is suppressive of natural testosterone. Because it takes the place of LH. LH is not the first step in the chain of command, instead its manufactured in the pituitary under the response of Gonadotropin releasing hormone (GnRH) which is secreted from the hypothalamus. And since an LH mimicking agent is supplied exogenously, the negative feedback signal to the hypothalamus will still tell it to stop making GnRH, and so no natural LH is produced. This is why the product is always used in conjunction with a potent estrogen receptor antagonist like clomid or Nolvadex. When the androgen level in the body has dropped, these antagonists will lower estrogenic response creating a steroid deficit that signals the Hypothalamus to start making GnRH. When it does, after HCG therapy, testicle size is up again and shortly thereafter natural testosterone manufacture should return to normal. But therefore its crucial that users note that though HCG is essential after long cycles, it shouldn't be used without clomid or Nolvadex AND HCG should be discontinued at least two weeks before coming off Clomid or Nolvadex or else it will suppress natural testosterone itself.

    Also important to take into account : using HCG for too long a period of time or in doses that are excessively high, can desensitize the testicles to the effect of LH and would put your right back where you started from. Basically that would mean you spent money to no avail. In terms of side-effects one should expect some androgenic signs such as acne and there is a risk for hair loss or prostate hypertrophy, but in most cases this compound will be used for 3-4 weeks, so these should not manifest themselves to any serious degree. There will also be some estrogen build-up, but since the user HAS to be on clomid or Nolvadex, this should not become apparent either. Next to this, HCG being a fertility drug, one should be aware that increased blood pressure and blood clotting can occur.....


    So while I definately see the wisdom of tweaking one's testicles into production every few weeks or so during a prolonged cycle, I'm not convinced that shooting even small amounts of HCG every week during a prolonged cycle is the best way to go, or even that it's beneficial to the cause at all?
  16. Registered User
    prolangtum's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Posts
    453
    Rep Power
    360

    SWALE usually advocates low doses of 500 ius
  17. Registered User
    gorge's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    57
    Rep Power
    159

    Originally posted by Milo Hobgoblin
    Im planning on starting a long term low dosage cycle of Prop/Test and was curious what the minimum amount per week would be to keep growing without too much water retention/acne/gyno.

    I will probably use very low dosages of Nolva during the entire cycle and small amounts of HCG for a few days every week to minimize atrpohy.

    I will be using 20-30 mg of 1-Methyl test for 2-4 week cycles and taking that ling off from it (so 2-4 weeks on/2-4 weeks off)


    Ideally I was thinking 300mg of prop/cyp every 6 days.


    Cycle will be approx 16 weeks

    thanks.

    On my first cycle I did Sus @ 250mg a week for 8 weeks and gained 20 pounds. You don't need a lot when starting.
  18. Registered User
    Milo Hobgoblin's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    San DIego
    Age
    45
    Posts
    81
    Rep Power
    181

    ...


    Damn these are GREAT posts. Thanks a ton guys.
  19. PC1
    PC1 is offline
    Registered User
    PC1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Outta Here
    Posts
    367
    Rep Power
    0

    Good luck Milo, enjoy your cycle
  20. Registered User
    Campeon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Posts
    22
    Rep Power
    145

    if it's your very first cycle you can get results off of 100mg/week...
  21. Registered User
    acecombact1's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    213
    Rep Power
    237

    550 g a week
  22. Registered User
    smike319's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2003
    Location
    H-Town
    Age
    43
    Posts
    216
    Rep Power
    242

    Real helpful info guys. I'm about to venture to the dark side myself and this info is very valuable to me. Want to maximize my virgin run since my receptors will be free but don't want to wind up with my boys "MIA"

    What about these cycles for a 1st timer (10 week cycle):

    1. nandrolone decanate = 200mg/week
    test cyp = 200mg/week

    2. tren = 225mg/week
    test cyp = 600mg/week
    stanozolol = 40mg/day
    armidex = 1/2 to 1 tab/day
  23. Registered User
    ManBeast's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  XXX lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Depths of Hell
    Age
    32
    Posts
    6,517
    Rep Power
    48650

    howabout test cyp at 500mg/week 1-10, and use the tren at 100mg EOD for the first 4-6 weeks. Save the winny for the next run.

    ManBeast
    -Saving random peoples' nuts, one pair at at time... PCT info:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/192992-pct-what-why.html
    -Are you really ready for a cycle? Read this link and be honest:
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/steroids/191120-checklist-before-thinking.html
    *I am not a medical expert, my opinions are not professional, and I strongly suggest doing research of your own.*
  24. Registered User
    Sandman187's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    25
    Rep Power
    143

    I have seen good results at 800mg/wk of T-400, i was on test enan at 500mg/wk and did not really see that much results. I think with my body i have to use more than i would like to to see results.
  25. Registered User
    tagurta's Avatar
    Join Date
    Dec 2003
    Posts
    4
    Rep Power
    133

    As for the HCG look at it this way...

    Big Cat's article by the way is still referring to it as something you either take post cycle or try and take separately altogether for musclebuilding.

    The more refined approach is to use it during a cycle and preferably every week, just not at the doses some are spouting of like 5 bazillion IU's. Now here's the deal: Some say that's too often man, some say it's just right. Well... Find out for yourself. All HCG is really doing is keeping your testes functional. So, as soon as they start to shrink, then it's time to give them a little push, and again, a couple of days later, maybe a week or two later (it all depends on your physiology) they will start shrinking again, give 'em a little love tap, baby. As soon as you near the end of your cycle you will have a good idea of how long they stay inflated before dropping again, time your last dose to fit within the time that your exogenous levels dip below supraphysiological levels. Basically you will not be taking any hcg after the cycle, because yes it can be very suppressive, BUT, think about it: It's the end of the cycle, and your testes aren't the size of raisins, so even though lh starts rising fairly quickly after your cycle, if the testes are extremely atrophied they wont respond as quickly. And yes as far as I've heard, too much hcg can oversensitize your leydig cells, and that's why I shudder when I hear of someone shooting 5000 IU's at one time to try and make up for lost time. Just take it nice and easy, use as little as you need to in order to keep the system running.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Replies: 16
    Last Post: 09-06-2011, 12:23 PM
  2. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-23-2011, 04:01 PM
  3. body that and amount of test converted to estrogen
    By rockstar6181 in forum Male Anti-Aging Medicine
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 07-14-2007, 10:40 AM
  4. What form of test to use?
    By Juiceman in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 07-10-2004, 07:00 AM
  5. Replies: 9
    Last Post: 04-23-2004, 03:35 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in