DoggCrap Cycle Question?

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  1. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    BOBO::Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle.

    Doggcrapp:: You did!!! By saying clomid and nolvadex dont work at all with exog test in the system--well guess what almost everyone has exogenous test in the system during the first week and maybe even the second week off-FACT! whether from hydrolizing slowly or half life. And since clomid is only used for 2 weeks at a time you explain it to me then because your saying yes and no at the same time

    BOBO:: They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the "cruise" peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS!.

    Doggcrapp::if you have exogenous test in your system from fridays shot for 10 days im sorry but thats exog test in the system at the same time nolvadex and clomid is being used

    Bobo:o I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Doggcrapp:: Yes please and make it kind of like how Nandi made you two look like complete idiots with the clomid study he screwed up your holier than thou opinion on ok--that was classic--tell him thank you for at least having an open mind and saying "speculation" because its just that "speculation" on my part. Im going to end this now because its one thng for us to go arguing back and forth but its quite another when I see you guys ask for help on your home board chemical muscle and then get made to look bad there.

    You can't be this dense. It just can't be possible.


    After your cycle! As in when levels are not SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL!!! Nolva and Clomid work when levels are NORMAL and/or BELOW! Get that through your head. THe whole arguement is based on DURING your cycle, not AFTER. Your cruis in which 100mg, sometimes 50mg is DURING!!! If you want to talk about PCT and WHY inhibitors are bad we can do that too!! If you actually think that I meant Nolva and Clomid dont' work at all on test production then you need to stop dropping weights on your head. CHeck my posts. I always recommened Nolva AFTER!

    If you still have exogneous test in your system and your are ABOVE normal levels then NOLVA/CLOMID will NOT raise test levels. Why? Because their is NOT an imbalance! At least understand the mechanism of how they work before stating your bougs theories!

    The clomid study showed how the mechanisms worked and in the end AGREED! You did read it right? YOUR WRONG! And read what Nandi wrote concerning Clomid!!

    From Nandi:

    "I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    Get the point?


    I dont' care about home boards because Chemical Muscle isn't mine and its not I even one go to, so I don't know what your talking about. I don't care if you look bad. When you provide theories without a clue your going to be called out!! You asked for evidence and I gave it to. Should I interpret it for you so you can't actually understand what it says?

    You don't understand your OWN THEORY!
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  2. I missed where Nandi made me look like an idiot
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  3. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    So on my part at least this post is over because I cant change your mind and you cant change mine--happy holidays and merry xmas
    Thats fine. Arguements aside, you have a Happy Holidays and Xmas yourself.
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  4. Also to note, I am not up on your evolving theory, this is taken from page 1 on the infamous "Cycles on Pennies" thread:

    Sorry bout that, I wrote that post quickly and I should of been a little more responsible with saying-those dosages are what I am seeing superheavies who have been around for a while doing. I am of the opinion that people should use the lowest dosages possible that will keep them gaining. If a newbie bodybuilder starts off with 2 grams of T every week and a high dose of fina etc etc and eventually taps out on that where is he going to go? 4000 a week? I believe one should make their way up 750, to 1000 to 1200 to 1500 and so on slowly thru cycles. I am an advocate of the 4 week on 2 week cruising (then back on) method not because of receptor site saturation but due to 3 very important (to me) factors...1)I lift extremely heavy and I push the limits for 4 weeks and I just need 2 weeks to kind of regroup myself and then go balls to the wall again with poundages for the next 4 weeks
    2)Same with food intake-I religiously get in 500 to 600 grams of protein and I have to give myself a little break for those 2 weeks(i only go down to 400grams or so) or I'll go crazy
    3) I think its of utmost importance to keep yourself regulated hpta wise. If your endogenous test levels diminish due to constant months of high androgens when you do finally come off those size gains fly out the door...if you can keep your endo test somewhat normal you wont get the huge problems that keep most bodybuilders bouncing up and down in bodyweight like yo yo's..namely getting colds and flu's/injuries/depression/lack of aggresion and appetite (which usually means test to estrogen ratio out of whack)...During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.
    As far as GH, I have never used it and I wish I could. But the cost is just too much for me at this time. From what I've witnessed short cycles will not do anything so unless I can run it for at least 6 months I am not going to bother. Opinions down here vary but most follow Milos's lead and do 5 days on 2 days off at 6IU's a day or 6 days on 4 off.

  5. Originally posted by theprolangtum
    During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.



    I just don't have the energy anymore. I need to go eat
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  6. Funny when things end this way.

  7. Happy Kwanza to everyone and to all a goodnight. I love a heated debate. Especially when its something of interest. Thank you gentlemen for the entertainment for the evening.
  8. Klaus
    Klaus's Avatar

    This thread is absolutely rediculous, and entertaining--more fun than playing with amorphous solids.

  9. Due to my ignorance and blatant disrespect I will leave now..

  10. Yes please do. Your presence here weakens the board.
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  11. Klaus
    Klaus's Avatar

    Originally posted by Jedi Master
    Due to my ignorance and blatant disrespect I will leave now..
    LOL, looks like BOBO edited your post there buddy That's some funny stuff.
  12. PC1
    PC1's Avatar

    This is kind of like a "Clash of the Titans" episode

    I say this, admittedly from a point of ignorance relatively speaking, and with all due respect. Because I've learned a lot from reading posts from Bobo, the other mods in here, and from DC also.

    Is it possible that the truth lies somewhere in the middle here, like most things in life?

    What little I know about our endocrine systems, is that the glands work to stay in balance. If one, or several are putting out more or less, the others will try to compensate to the degree they can.

    Generally speaking, Swale's experience is that Clomid and Nolva won't stimulate endogenous production in the presence of exogenous supplementation that is OVER AND ABOVE what we normally would be producing.

    But perhaps THAT LEVEL, whatever it is for each of us on an individual basis, is higher after a prolonged androgen cycle? Which might also explain why DC, with his trainees still having SOME level of exogenous androgens present due to their half-lives, have experienced benefits even if they SHOULDN'T?

    I know this is pure speculation on my part and no, I don't have any formal training or studies. Still, something like this concept may account for the different experiences.

    Be well guys

  13. It is possible PC1. I have considerd the same thoughts before.

    For instance as DC was trying to get across, most will start clomid, etc. about 7 days after last injection. However, we know that after 7 days, exogenous test is still present. Yet these individual do recover. It is possbile that the body "prepares" for recover in these situations.

    However, the scientific studies lean heavily towards Bobo's stance.

    Sometimes, people just have to agree to disagree and do what works best for you.

  14. If the levels drop below normal range, then it should stimulate test because there is an imbalance to compensate. Thats how they work. He's syas they recover but how does he prove this? Blood tests? Even those are inconclusive because you stuill have circulating test and these drugs do mimic LH response. These drugs do cause a rapid rise in LH but that does not mean that Test levels automaticially increase. Even certain AAS stimluate massive LH response in the first week before they bottom out. So concluding recovery is happening in a 2 week peroid is ridiculous because true recovery does not happen within this time frame. Most studies examine 3,6,9 and 12 months checks. This is the same theory Fonz used with his D-bol bridge because he found a study showing D-bol increasing LH levels within the first week, BUT test levels remained suppressed! Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.


    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

    Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

    "Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.


    Notice the drop at the 5 month peroid.
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  15. Nothing like a nice graph.

    Also, I think, as you just stressed, it is important to look at recovery as a lengthy process.

  16. Okay... To be honest with you guys.... I am now confused as all hell!

    Is there a sort of medium ground that can be reached?

    How would you cycle TE, Tren, and Winny tabs for optimal effects?
    I know you all will probly tell me to do a search... but after reading this thread- I honestly couldn't even tell you where my own ass is!

    The delimma I'm facing is that I want to stay on cycle for as long as possible while at the same time being considerate of PCT and keeping gains.
  17. Klaus
    Klaus's Avatar

    Nothing like winning an argument with a graph. Excellent job Bobo

  18. Originally posted by Blatalian
    The delimma I'm facing is that I want to stay on cycle for as long as possible while at the same time being considerate of PCT and keeping gains.
    You can do as Bobo suggests (if i'm understood this thread correctly), which is to do your cycle and periodically add HCG until your cycle ends. At which time you do your normal PCT.

    Or you do as DC recommends, cruising every 4-6 weeks using clo/nolva/hcg and then continuing the cycle. I think the common ground between Bobo and DC is that HCG shoud be used periodically on long cycles and either way it would be better than doing nothing.

  19. Look at it this way:

    1. Can you recover during a 2 week peroid? No.

    2. Can you get the testes to respond to LH with Clomid and/or NOlva during this 2 week peroid? No

    3. Can you get the testes to respond to HCG during this peroid? Yes

    4. Can you help recovery by increasing the testes sensitivity to LH post cycle using HCG during your cycle? Theoretically, yes.

    5. Is suppression the same with 100mg/week compared to 1g/week? Yes.

    6. Can you get the same response (testes repsonse to LH) using HCG with higher doses throughout your cycle? Yes.

    Therefore lowering doses is pointelss and using Clomid/Nolva to increase recovery is pointless. Keep doses high and use HCG and you should recover better. This way you get increased recovery while MAXIMIZING gains. THis is not for everyone and should only be used with longer cycles. Even then you should consider health consequences when using high doses for long peroids of time.
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  20. PC1
    PC1's Avatar

    On the graph............

    Is there any explanation given in this case as to why there is such a HUGE swing from month 3 up to month 4, down to month 5, and then back up at month 6??? Endocrinologically speaking, all HELL has brooken loose? That's a roller coaster ride if ever there was one?!


    Bobo.....

    from your post above:

    BUT test levels remained suppressed! (in Fonz' d-bol bridge) Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.

    I'm also confused by this Bobo. I thought the REASON that hcg stimulates one's testicles into production is that it DOES mimic LH? Here's a cut from BigCat's hcg profile on bb.com:

    During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

    So while I understand that HCG "works" in this situation, I'm also now confused as to why it works?

    And btw, your 6 points post above spells all the rest of this discussion very nicely. Thanks.

    Thanks guys.

  21. For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless and you could of taken 2 poptarts and gotten the same results. Because the facts are that a majority of people using super supplements in this world still have varying amounts of test/steroids in their system ABOVE NATURAL LEVELS for the following weeks after they get "off" --the VERY EXACT SAME TIME that they use clomid for two weeks. Make your own conclusions-you already know mine.

  22. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless and you could of taken 2 poptarts and gotten the same results. Because the facts are that a majority of people using super supplements in this world still have varying amounts of test/steroids in their system ABOVE NATURAL LEVELS for the following weeks after they get "off" --the VERY EXACT SAME TIME that they use clomid for two weeks. Make your own conclusions-you already know mine.
    Nobody is going to have superphysiological levels of exogenous hormones two weeks after a cycle with a regular esterfied compound like enanthate or cypionate.

  23. Originally posted by PC1
    On the graph............

    Is there any explanation given in this case as to why there is such a HUGE swing from month 3 up to month 4, down to month 5, and then back up at month 6??? Endocrinologically speaking, all HELL has brooken loose? That's a roller coaster ride if ever there was one?!


    Bobo.....

    from your post above:

    BUT test levels remained suppressed! (in Fonz' d-bol bridge) Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.

    I'm also confused by this Bobo. I thought the REASON that hcg stimulates one's testicles into production is that it DOES mimic LH? Here's a cut from BigCat's hcg profile on bb.com:

    During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

    So while I understand that HCG "works" in this situation, I'm also now confused as to why it works?

    And btw, your 6 points post above spells all the rest of this discussion very nicely. Thanks.

    Thanks guys.
    I think Nandi put it best.

    ""I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    Clomd and Nolva do not directly effect LH production. They suppress estrogen and creat an imbalance of hormones. In response GnRH is stimulated which in turn increases LH pulses stimulating the testes to produce more testosterone to make up for the imbalance. HCG doens't care about the imbalanbce and has shown to DIRECTLY effect the testes. It basically bypasses the feedback mechanism. Clomid and Nolva do it through a number of pathways and the imbalance one of them.



    PC1 were not worried about raising testosteron during the cycle. Were basically increasing the chances of the testes to repson to LH and then in turn product testosterone. Clomid and Nolva will not make the testes respond to LH when exogenous hormones are present. HCG does directly stimlate the testes and makes them more respondent to LH when all is said and done. At least thats the theory Swale proposes.
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  24. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless
    What are you talking about? I'm not even talking post cycle, I'm talking about your cruise peroid.

    Recovery takes months, not 2 weeks. If you think you can recover in 2 weeks, your nuts.


    Super Supplements? Are you talking about contamination? You can't be because then you would make me laugh all weekend. They measure metabolies in testing and its usually around 1% of 1%. It has zero effect on the body. Please say you didn't mean that.....
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  25. Originally posted by Bobo
    Look at it this way:

    1. Can you recover during a 2 week peroid? No.

    2. Can you get the testes to respond to LH with Clomid and/or NOlva during this 2 week peroid? No

    3. Can you get the testes to respond to HCG during this peroid? Yes

    4. Can you help recovery by increasing the testes sensitivity to LH post cycle using HCG during your cycle? Theoretically, yes.

    5. Is suppression the same with 100mg/week compared to 1g/week? Yes.

    6. Can you get the same response (testes repsonse to LH) using HCG with higher doses throughout your cycle? Yes.

    Therefore lowering doses is pointelss and using Clomid/Nolva to increase recovery is pointless. Keep doses high and use HCG and you should recover better. This way you get increased recovery while MAXIMIZING gains. THis is not for everyone and should only be used with longer cycles. Even then you should consider health consequences when using high doses for long peroids of time.

    Just curious....
    I'm planning to utilize DC's methods.

    From what you said above, it sounds like DC's methods have a practical use. I should just replace the Clomid with HCG.. right?

    DC:
    Can you give me some advice on cycling Winny Tabs and Tren Acetate using your cycling metohds.
    -I'm still on cycle and have been since Oct. 20th.
    -I started w/500 mgs of TE and 300 mgs of Primo (I also started and discontinued Var and winny depot)
    -From Nov.2nd to Dec.4th I took approx. 75mgs of fina daily.
    -Currently I'm taking 250mgs of TE on Tuesdays and Fridays.

    I want to continue this cycle... I don't feel that I'm ready to get off of it and I am just now begining to see results.
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