DoggCrap Cycle Question?

Page 3 of 4 First 1234 Last
  1. Klaus
    Klaus's Avatar

    Originally posted by Jedi Master
    Due to my ignorance and blatant disrespect I will leave now..
    LOL, looks like BOBO edited your post there buddy That's some funny stuff.

  2. PC1
    PC1's Avatar

    This is kind of like a "Clash of the Titans" episode

    I say this, admittedly from a point of ignorance relatively speaking, and with all due respect. Because I've learned a lot from reading posts from Bobo, the other mods in here, and from DC also.

    Is it possible that the truth lies somewhere in the middle here, like most things in life?

    What little I know about our endocrine systems, is that the glands work to stay in balance. If one, or several are putting out more or less, the others will try to compensate to the degree they can.

    Generally speaking, Swale's experience is that Clomid and Nolva won't stimulate endogenous production in the presence of exogenous supplementation that is OVER AND ABOVE what we normally would be producing.

    But perhaps THAT LEVEL, whatever it is for each of us on an individual basis, is higher after a prolonged androgen cycle? Which might also explain why DC, with his trainees still having SOME level of exogenous androgens present due to their half-lives, have experienced benefits even if they SHOULDN'T?

    I know this is pure speculation on my part and no, I don't have any formal training or studies. Still, something like this concept may account for the different experiences.

    Be well guys
    •   
       


  3. It is possible PC1. I have considerd the same thoughts before.

    For instance as DC was trying to get across, most will start clomid, etc. about 7 days after last injection. However, we know that after 7 days, exogenous test is still present. Yet these individual do recover. It is possbile that the body "prepares" for recover in these situations.

    However, the scientific studies lean heavily towards Bobo's stance.

    Sometimes, people just have to agree to disagree and do what works best for you.

  4. If the levels drop below normal range, then it should stimulate test because there is an imbalance to compensate. Thats how they work. He's syas they recover but how does he prove this? Blood tests? Even those are inconclusive because you stuill have circulating test and these drugs do mimic LH response. These drugs do cause a rapid rise in LH but that does not mean that Test levels automaticially increase. Even certain AAS stimluate massive LH response in the first week before they bottom out. So concluding recovery is happening in a 2 week peroid is ridiculous because true recovery does not happen within this time frame. Most studies examine 3,6,9 and 12 months checks. This is the same theory Fonz used with his D-bol bridge because he found a study showing D-bol increasing LH levels within the first week, BUT test levels remained suppressed! Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.


    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

    Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. [email protected]

    "Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.


    Notice the drop at the 5 month peroid.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  5. Nothing like a nice graph.

    Also, I think, as you just stressed, it is important to look at recovery as a lengthy process.
    •   
       


  6. Okay... To be honest with you guys.... I am now confused as all hell!

    Is there a sort of medium ground that can be reached?

    How would you cycle TE, Tren, and Winny tabs for optimal effects?
    I know you all will probly tell me to do a search... but after reading this thread- I honestly couldn't even tell you where my own ass is!

    The delimma I'm facing is that I want to stay on cycle for as long as possible while at the same time being considerate of PCT and keeping gains.
  7. Klaus
    Klaus's Avatar

    Nothing like winning an argument with a graph. Excellent job Bobo

  8. Originally posted by Blatalian
    The delimma I'm facing is that I want to stay on cycle for as long as possible while at the same time being considerate of PCT and keeping gains.
    You can do as Bobo suggests (if i'm understood this thread correctly), which is to do your cycle and periodically add HCG until your cycle ends. At which time you do your normal PCT.

    Or you do as DC recommends, cruising every 4-6 weeks using clo/nolva/hcg and then continuing the cycle. I think the common ground between Bobo and DC is that HCG shoud be used periodically on long cycles and either way it would be better than doing nothing.

  9. Look at it this way:

    1. Can you recover during a 2 week peroid? No.

    2. Can you get the testes to respond to LH with Clomid and/or NOlva during this 2 week peroid? No

    3. Can you get the testes to respond to HCG during this peroid? Yes

    4. Can you help recovery by increasing the testes sensitivity to LH post cycle using HCG during your cycle? Theoretically, yes.

    5. Is suppression the same with 100mg/week compared to 1g/week? Yes.

    6. Can you get the same response (testes repsonse to LH) using HCG with higher doses throughout your cycle? Yes.

    Therefore lowering doses is pointelss and using Clomid/Nolva to increase recovery is pointless. Keep doses high and use HCG and you should recover better. This way you get increased recovery while MAXIMIZING gains. THis is not for everyone and should only be used with longer cycles. Even then you should consider health consequences when using high doses for long peroids of time.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.
  10. PC1
    PC1's Avatar

    On the graph............

    Is there any explanation given in this case as to why there is such a HUGE swing from month 3 up to month 4, down to month 5, and then back up at month 6??? Endocrinologically speaking, all HELL has brooken loose? That's a roller coaster ride if ever there was one?!


    Bobo.....

    from your post above:

    BUT test levels remained suppressed! (in Fonz' d-bol bridge) Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.

    I'm also confused by this Bobo. I thought the REASON that hcg stimulates one's testicles into production is that it DOES mimic LH? Here's a cut from BigCat's hcg profile on bb.com:

    During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

    So while I understand that HCG "works" in this situation, I'm also now confused as to why it works?

    And btw, your 6 points post above spells all the rest of this discussion very nicely. Thanks.

    Thanks guys.

  11. For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless and you could of taken 2 poptarts and gotten the same results. Because the facts are that a majority of people using super supplements in this world still have varying amounts of test/steroids in their system ABOVE NATURAL LEVELS for the following weeks after they get "off" --the VERY EXACT SAME TIME that they use clomid for two weeks. Make your own conclusions-you already know mine.

  12. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless and you could of taken 2 poptarts and gotten the same results. Because the facts are that a majority of people using super supplements in this world still have varying amounts of test/steroids in their system ABOVE NATURAL LEVELS for the following weeks after they get "off" --the VERY EXACT SAME TIME that they use clomid for two weeks. Make your own conclusions-you already know mine.
    Nobody is going to have superphysiological levels of exogenous hormones two weeks after a cycle with a regular esterfied compound like enanthate or cypionate.

  13. Originally posted by PC1
    On the graph............

    Is there any explanation given in this case as to why there is such a HUGE swing from month 3 up to month 4, down to month 5, and then back up at month 6??? Endocrinologically speaking, all HELL has brooken loose? That's a roller coaster ride if ever there was one?!


    Bobo.....

    from your post above:

    BUT test levels remained suppressed! (in Fonz' d-bol bridge) Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.

    I'm also confused by this Bobo. I thought the REASON that hcg stimulates one's testicles into production is that it DOES mimic LH? Here's a cut from BigCat's hcg profile on bb.com:

    During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

    So while I understand that HCG "works" in this situation, I'm also now confused as to why it works?

    And btw, your 6 points post above spells all the rest of this discussion very nicely. Thanks.

    Thanks guys.
    I think Nandi put it best.

    ""I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    Clomd and Nolva do not directly effect LH production. They suppress estrogen and creat an imbalance of hormones. In response GnRH is stimulated which in turn increases LH pulses stimulating the testes to produce more testosterone to make up for the imbalance. HCG doens't care about the imbalanbce and has shown to DIRECTLY effect the testes. It basically bypasses the feedback mechanism. Clomid and Nolva do it through a number of pathways and the imbalance one of them.



    PC1 were not worried about raising testosteron during the cycle. Were basically increasing the chances of the testes to repson to LH and then in turn product testosterone. Clomid and Nolva will not make the testes respond to LH when exogenous hormones are present. HCG does directly stimlate the testes and makes them more respondent to LH when all is said and done. At least thats the theory Swale proposes.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  14. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless
    What are you talking about? I'm not even talking post cycle, I'm talking about your cruise peroid.

    Recovery takes months, not 2 weeks. If you think you can recover in 2 weeks, your nuts.


    Super Supplements? Are you talking about contamination? You can't be because then you would make me laugh all weekend. They measure metabolies in testing and its usually around 1% of 1%. It has zero effect on the body. Please say you didn't mean that.....
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  15. Originally posted by Bobo
    Look at it this way:

    1. Can you recover during a 2 week peroid? No.

    2. Can you get the testes to respond to LH with Clomid and/or NOlva during this 2 week peroid? No

    3. Can you get the testes to respond to HCG during this peroid? Yes

    4. Can you help recovery by increasing the testes sensitivity to LH post cycle using HCG during your cycle? Theoretically, yes.

    5. Is suppression the same with 100mg/week compared to 1g/week? Yes.

    6. Can you get the same response (testes repsonse to LH) using HCG with higher doses throughout your cycle? Yes.

    Therefore lowering doses is pointelss and using Clomid/Nolva to increase recovery is pointless. Keep doses high and use HCG and you should recover better. This way you get increased recovery while MAXIMIZING gains. THis is not for everyone and should only be used with longer cycles. Even then you should consider health consequences when using high doses for long peroids of time.

    Just curious....
    I'm planning to utilize DC's methods.

    From what you said above, it sounds like DC's methods have a practical use. I should just replace the Clomid with HCG.. right?

    DC:
    Can you give me some advice on cycling Winny Tabs and Tren Acetate using your cycling metohds.
    -I'm still on cycle and have been since Oct. 20th.
    -I started w/500 mgs of TE and 300 mgs of Primo (I also started and discontinued Var and winny depot)
    -From Nov.2nd to Dec.4th I took approx. 75mgs of fina daily.
    -Currently I'm taking 250mgs of TE on Tuesdays and Fridays.

    I want to continue this cycle... I don't feel that I'm ready to get off of it and I am just now begining to see results.

  16. Originally posted by Blatalian



    Just curious....
    I'm planning to utilize DC's methods.

    From what you said above, it sounds like DC's methods have a practical use. I should just replace the Clomid with HCG.. right?

    DC:
    Can you give me some advice on cycling Winny Tabs and Tren Acetate using your cycling metohds.
    -I'm still on cycle and have been since Oct. 20th.
    -I started w/500 mgs of TE and 300 mgs of Primo (I also started and discontinued Var and winny depot)
    -From Nov.2nd to Dec.4th I took approx. 75mgs of fina daily.
    -Currently I'm taking 250mgs of TE on Tuesdays and Fridays.

    I want to continue this cycle... I don't feel that I'm ready to get off of it and I am just now begining to see results.
    From what I said above? Umm...From what I said above shows how DC's methods make no sense. DC recommends lowering doses which don't make sense. DC recommends using Climd/Nolva during cycle which doesn't make sense. (unless for gyno prevention)

    Its Swales method that encourages HCG throughout. Bacially all your have to do is plan your cycle then take shots of HCG throughout at 500-1000iu.

    If your just seeing results now then either your stuff was fake, you didn't train right, or you didn't eat right.

    I suggest you remedy those first.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  17. Originally posted by Bobo


    From what I said above? Umm...From what I said above shows how DC's methods make no sense. DC recommends lowering doses which don't make sense. DC recommends using Climd/Nolva during cycle which doesn't make sense. (unless for gyno prevention)

    Its Swales method that encourages HCG throughout. Bacially all your have to do is plan your cycle then take shots of HCG throughout at 500-1000iu.

    If your just seeing results now then either your stuff was fake, you didn't train right, or you didn't eat right.

    I suggest you remedy those first.
    I'm not trying to argue with you bro....
    From what I see the main descrepancy that you have with DC's cycle is that he advocates Clomid, Nolva, and HCG... not just HCG.
    If you don't agree, I understand, but that's the way I interpret this whole situation.

    Can you give me a link explaing SWALE's cycle method.. You've got me interested. And yes, I already did perform a search ... No Go.

    And you are absolutely right about me not Training or Eating right.... I confess.
    As far as the training .. I just started DC's regime....
    As far as eating... I've given up .... I just eat as much as I can... and take in as much protein as I can. (I'm not a big eater.)

    I must be doing something right though... I've gained 50lbs naturally... before I even considered juicing. My diet hasn't changed much since then.

  18. Then if it works for you don't change it despite what science says, keep doing what WORKS for you.

  19. Originally posted by RaulJimenez
    Then if it works for you don't change it despite what science says, keep doing what WORKS for you.
    If you didn't read his post he has been using AAS for almost 2 months and just now is seeing results so something is not right.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  20. Originally posted by Blatalian


    I'm not trying to argue with you bro....
    From what I see the main descrepancy that you have with DC's cycle is that he advocates Clomid, Nolva, and HCG... not just HCG.
    If you don't agree, I understand, but that's the way I interpret this whole situation.

    Can you give me a link explaing SWALE's cycle method.. You've got me interested. And yes, I already did perform a search ... No Go.

    And you are absolutely right about me not Training or Eating right.... I confess.
    As far as the training .. I just started DC's regime....
    As far as eating... I've given up .... I just eat as much as I can... and take in as much protein as I can. (I'm not a big eater.)

    I must be doing something right though... I've gained 50lbs naturally... before I even considered juicing. My diet hasn't changed much since then.
    Then something is not right because there isn't any reason wyh you shouldn't have seen results earlier.

    The other discepency is that he recommeneds dropping doses because he thinks this has positive effects on recovery. It doesn't. If so, then the bridge and tapering theory would be legit too and everyone know they are bogus. Its the same principles.

    SWALE theory is over at CEM, not here.

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...der=descending

    Take your pic



    Don't fall into that group that is so intimdated by science that they don't tihnk it applies to you. These studies are done on REAL people in the REAL world who used REAL streroids. For some reason "some" people see a study and think since its conducted in a lab it doesn't apply to you.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  21. Originally posted by Bobo


    If you didn't read his post he has been using AAS for almost 2 months and just now is seeing results so something is not right.
    What kind of results should I expect to see?
    Before I started, I was at 225lbs and 10-15% BF..
    Now I'm at 220 lbs and 10-12% BF.
    Dosen't seem impressive does it?

    Those stats don't do my progress justice though... My body structure has changed and my muscle density has increased.
    My shoulders, traps, and back are breaking plateaus.

    I'm beginning to think that I may have reached my weight capacity to some extent... Maybe it'll just take time for me to gain more weight- AAS's or Not... What do you think?

    I have to eat a hell of alot more, huh? I figured you'd say that.

  22. PC1, I suggest you check out the HRT/Longevity forum over there at CEM. I think many of your questions might be answered there and very specific detail.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  23. Originally posted by Blatalian


    What kind of results should I expect to see?
    Before I started, I was at 225lbs and 10-15% BF..
    Now I'm at 220 lbs and 10-12% BF.
    Dosen't seem impressive does it?

    Those stats don't do my transformation justice though... My body structure has changed and my muscle density has increased.
    My shoulders, traps, and back are breaking plateaus.

    I'm beginning to think that I may have reached my weight capacity to some extent... Maybe it'll just take time for me to gain more weight- AAS's or Not... What do you think?

    I have to eat a hell of alot more, huh? I figured you'd say that.
    I guess this was a cutting cycle then since you lost weight? I mean if you think you've made some very impressive composition changes then thats something. I was under the impression you didn't see much change at all from your own statements. If you were on a bulking cycle then something is not right. You should gain just by food intake alone.

    10-15%? Thats a pretty big range there. I tihnk you need toget some very accurate measurements then compare as your cycle goes along. It seems your observations are in the mirror and thats fine but if you want conclusive evidnce, take measurements and pictures.

    How tall are you?
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  24. Originally posted by Bobo


    I guess this was a cutting cycle then since you lost weight? I mean if you think you've made some very impressive composition changes then thats something. I was under the impression you didn't see much change at all from your own statements. If you were on a bulking cycle then something is not right. You should gain just by food intake alone.

    10-15%? Thats a pretty big range there. I tihnk you need toget some very accurate measurements then compare as your cycle goes along. It seems your observations are in the mirror and thats fine but if you want conclusive evidnce, take measurements and pictures.

    How tall are you?
    I'm 5'11" and 23 years old...
    To be honest with you .... I was expecting to gain tons of weight... I waited and waited ... but nothing happened.
    (I must not have been eating right)
    I'm sure the gear was and is good... It was Iranian TE and Testoviron.
    The Primo looked legit also. The Fina.. I made myself...
    And I'm sure that worked because my shoulders and back are inflamed with acne since I stopped taking it.

    Therefore... a week or two ago, I added some t-3, clen, and keto to my cycle... and to my dissapointment.. this isn't working wonders either.

    You're right about the accuracy of measurements... the last time I had one done I was at 11%.... I'm sure that I've gained more BF since then.

  25. Primo probaly isnt legit. What exactly are your goals for this cycle? You dont seem so clear that you even know what you want to do or which direction your heading, your talking about not gaining weight, yet, you were on a keto diet.




  26. Originally posted by theprolangtum
    Primo probaly isnt legit. What exactly are your goals for this cycle? You dont seem so clear that you even know what you want to do or which direction your heading, your talking about not gaining weight, yet, you were on a keto diet.
    No bro... Not a keto diet...I'm talking about Ketotifen Fumarate...I could understand the confusion though.. My bad.

    My goals are to gain as much lean muscle mass possible... while keeping off fat.

    The person I got the primo from is legit....He wouldn't sale me fake ****...

  27. I wouldnt be so sure, most sources dont know what is real and what is fake primo, the fakes are very very good

  28. Yeah what we have here in this guy's case is a lack of diet or training , gear only amplifies what you can get if you have diet and training in order, the debate about where or not you recover in 2 weeks on cruising is another thing... whichever you choose to do is your own problem, but what I don't like is people trying to impose into other guys mind that THIS IS WHAT WORKS, NOT WHAT OTHER SAYS... people have the option of choosing whats best for them. People will always debate on things , and that's the best thing in a forum , looking all the research and all the possibilities and then coming to your own conclusions. I already got my conclusion on this debate and it was a good one, I hope you guys make your own decision on both Bobo's and DC's point of view, thanks and that's my 2 cents.

  29. Nobody can impose anything on anyone on a message board. What we can do is face the facts and when a certain theory makes zero scientific sense at all we can come to a valid conclusion. As you said there are many possiblities but only until one knows the facts can you truly understand the possiblities. Knowing the facts chainges the paramaters and limits the possilbity therefore eliminating the improbable. The only thing stopping that is having a close mind and blind loyalty and not accepting what is already known fact.

    Swales point of view if theoretical with scientific backing.

    DC's point of view is theoretical with no scientific backing.

    The chioce is clear to anyone that values logic.
    For answers to board issues, read the Suggestion and News forum at the bottom of the main page.

  30. Originally posted by RaulJimenez
    Yeah what we have here in this guy's case is a lack of diet or training , gear only amplifies what you can get if you have diet and training in order, the debate about where or not you recover in 2 weeks on cruising is another thing... whichever you choose to do is your own problem, but what I don't like is people trying to impose into other guys mind that THIS IS WHAT WORKS, NOT WHAT OTHER SAYS... people have the option of choosing whats best for them. People will always debate on things , and that's the best thing in a forum , looking all the research and all the possibilities and then coming to your own conclusions. I already got my conclusion on this debate and it was a good one, I hope you guys make your own decision on both Bobo's and DC's point of view, thanks and that's my 2 cents.
    Hey homey... I really don't appreciate your comments... or your 'I don't give a **** attitude'. If you you're not going to offer any helpful advice then stay out of the discussion... AND THATS MY 2 CENTS.
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Nolva during cycle - Questions
    By dannyboy5000 in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 07-27-2004, 08:50 AM
  2. 4-T cycle & questions
    By cpwhite in forum Cycle Info
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-14-2003, 10:19 AM
  3. 3rd cycle question
    By kto in forum Anabolics
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 02-08-2003, 08:39 PM
  4. Post cycle question -- Clomafen???
    By Irishman in forum Cycle Info
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 02-04-2003, 02:35 PM
  5. HELP! Post-Cycle Questions
    By Kay in forum Cycle Info
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 12-05-2002, 05:29 PM
Log in
Log in