bobo: You have shown zero evidence to support your theories.
Doggcrapp:: I agree that even small amounts cause suppression but even then you guys dont see my point because your working with different goals that I have to work with in people. Alot of guys dont want to lose any size between cycles--none--zip--zilch--because they have appearances, priorities in which they have to show up in shape, or they are going for a show and dont want to take a step backward etc etc. I try to find the minimal amount of cruising dosage that will keep their size before they go back on again, for some that will be just like I outlined. For some others they want to do a little bit more (its up to them). My evidence is working with people like this and seeing blood tests etc and you can take it or leave it. My question on the bottom of my last post still goes unanswered. Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol
So remember that guys who are reading this-you might as well get off completely cold turkey and hope for the best with crossed fingers because no amount of clomid nolvadex or arimidex is going to help you with recovery if your using any Test other than suspension or propionate on the friday before. Good luck trying to keep that muscle mass on you
First of all its not my theory. It Swales clinical facts. He runs an HRT clinic that also deals with patients who abuse steroids. He studies this in a clinincal setting under controlled conditions. He has plenty of abstracts to back it up and if you actually took the time to look it up over at CEM, you can have all the evidence you want. I'm just telling you his point of view and frankly I trust someone that actually works with this every day in the medical profession than a trainer who clearly doesn't even understand the mechanism of actions in these drugs.
YOU are the one hasn't provided anything.
By your last post you clearly haven't even understood one WORD I've said. Your method does not allow the time NEEDED for anf amount of significangt recovery. Why? Because you go right back ON after 2 weeks! If you think you can recover TESTOSTERONE production any significant degree then you've been using something other than AAS.
Remember DC this is YOUR theory. YOU have the burned of PROOF. So far you haven't given anyone anything but hearsay.
From SWALE:
"
Clomid does not cause an increase in LH (and therefore endogenous T production) in an environment of androgenic suppression. IOW, the "Clomid burst" is a myth.
Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."
This is from someone who does this specific thing for a living.
From Nandi:
"I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."
In other words the use of HCG is fine to keep the testes primed for when you come off. Clomid and Nolva during cycle will have almost ZERO effect, unless used for a prolonged peroid of time WITHOUT exogenous hormones.
Here's your low dose supression too:
Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men
1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110
"Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001).
Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"
Full Text:
http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/content/full/281/6/E1172
Now your going to suppressed even more since you just came off and going into the cruise cycle.
Going to lift now