DoggCrap Cycle Question?

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    where can you buy hcg? or is it an illegal drug? just not sure if its like clomid/nolva is all.

    thx guys, this is a great read

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    bobo: You have shown zero evidence to support your theories.

    Doggcrapp:: I agree that even small amounts cause suppression but even then you guys dont see my point because your working with different goals that I have to work with in people. Alot of guys dont want to lose any size between cycles--none--zip--zilch--because they have appearances, priorities in which they have to show up in shape, or they are going for a show and dont want to take a step backward etc etc. I try to find the minimal amount of cruising dosage that will keep their size before they go back on again, for some that will be just like I outlined. For some others they want to do a little bit more (its up to them). My evidence is working with people like this and seeing blood tests etc and you can take it or leave it. My question on the bottom of my last post still goes unanswered. Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol
    So remember that guys who are reading this-you might as well get off completely cold turkey and hope for the best with crossed fingers because no amount of clomid nolvadex or arimidex is going to help you with recovery if your using any Test other than suspension or propionate on the friday before. Good luck trying to keep that muscle mass on you
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    Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    bobo: You have shown zero evidence to support your theories.

    Doggcrapp:: I agree that even small amounts cause suppression but even then you guys dont see my point because your working with different goals that I have to work with in people. Alot of guys dont want to lose any size between cycles--none--zip--zilch--because they have appearances, priorities in which they have to show up in shape, or they are going for a show and dont want to take a step backward etc etc. I try to find the minimal amount of cruising dosage that will keep their size before they go back on again, for some that will be just like I outlined. For some others they want to do a little bit more (its up to them). My evidence is working with people like this and seeing blood tests etc and you can take it or leave it. My question on the bottom of my last post still goes unanswered. Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol
    So remember that guys who are reading this-you might as well get off completely cold turkey and hope for the best with crossed fingers because no amount of clomid nolvadex or arimidex is going to help you with recovery if your using any Test other than suspension or propionate on the friday before. Good luck trying to keep that muscle mass on you

    First of all its not my theory. It Swales clinical facts. He runs an HRT clinic that also deals with patients who abuse steroids. He studies this in a clinincal setting under controlled conditions. He has plenty of abstracts to back it up and if you actually took the time to look it up over at CEM, you can have all the evidence you want. I'm just telling you his point of view and frankly I trust someone that actually works with this every day in the medical profession than a trainer who clearly doesn't even understand the mechanism of actions in these drugs.

    YOU are the one hasn't provided anything.

    By your last post you clearly haven't even understood one WORD I've said. Your method does not allow the time NEEDED for anf amount of significangt recovery. Why? Because you go right back ON after 2 weeks! If you think you can recover TESTOSTERONE production any significant degree then you've been using something other than AAS.

    Remember DC this is YOUR theory. YOU have the burned of PROOF. So far you haven't given anyone anything but hearsay.

    From SWALE:

    "Clomid does not cause an increase in LH (and therefore endogenous T production) in an environment of androgenic suppression. IOW, the "Clomid burst" is a myth.

    Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."

    This is from someone who does this specific thing for a living.

    From Nandi:

    "I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    In other words the use of HCG is fine to keep the testes primed for when you come off. Clomid and Nolva during cycle will have almost ZERO effect, unless used for a prolonged peroid of time WITHOUT exogenous hormones.



    Here's your low dose supression too:

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

    1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110


    "Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001). Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"

    Full Text:

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ll/281/6/E1172

    Now your going to suppressed even more since you just came off and going into the cruise cycle.


    Going to lift now
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    Originally posted by 2gcorey
    where can you buy hcg? or is it an illegal drug? just not sure if its like clomid/nolva is all.

    thx guys, this is a great read
    Read the stickes and profiles. Please research. Thank you.
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    Thats a beautiful gathering of facts Bobo


    A tear drops from my eye
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    And if we are going by real world experience, i have routinely ran 10-12 week cycles, came off with HCG use in the last two weeks while comounds are active, and then used nolva for PCT therapy in conjunction with slin. I usually only lose a small amount of water, maybe 5 lbs. I havent withered up, gotten sick or anything like that. And guess what? 8 weeks after I start PCT, i am already in the process of making natural gains, and am fully recovered to hit another cycle.
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    doggcrapp::Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol

    Bobo::Clomid and Nolva during cycle will have almost ZERO effect, unless used for a prolonged peroid of time WITHOUT exogenous hormones

    Doggcrapp:: thats all I wanted to see thanks. You have just proved that the millions of bodybuilders in this world who have been trying to recover after cycles are doing nothing but placebo work all these years and they would be just as good if they went cold turkey. Frankly Ill take the millions of bodybuilders experiences and opinions over one guy named Bobo. Clomid is usually run for 2 weeks at a time so I can take your suggestion as "dont start clomid for 4 weeks after ending a shot of sustonon" correct? The above studies are great thanks and proved to me what i already agreed with (suppression happens while on)
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    DC you do know what exogenous hormones are right?

    Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle. They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the "cruise" peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS! Basically your cruise theory is bogus and you can't even find one shread of evidence to back it up.

    Do I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Unbelievable....
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    Originally posted by theprolangtum
    Thats a beautiful gathering of facts Bobo


    A tear drops from my eye



    Check your PM's
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    BOBO::Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle.

    Doggcrapp:: You did!!! By saying clomid and nolvadex dont work at all with exog test in the system--well guess what almost everyone has exogenous test in the system during the first week and maybe even the second week off-FACT! whether from hydrolizing slowly or half life. And since clomid is only used for 2 weeks at a time you explain it to me then because your saying yes and no at the same time

    BOBO:: They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the "cruise" peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS!.

    Doggcrapp::if you have exogenous test in your system from fridays shot for 10 days im sorry but thats exog test in the system at the same time nolvadex and clomid is being used

    Bobo:o I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Doggcrapp:: Yes please and make it kind of like how Nandi made you two look like complete idiots with the clomid study he screwed up your "holier than thou" opinion on ok--that was classic--tell him thank you for at least having an open mind and saying "speculation" because its just that "speculation" on my part. Im going to end this now because its one thng for us to go arguing back and forth but its quite another when I see you guys ask for help on your home board chemical muscle and then get made to look bad there. I dont like to see things like that. So on my part at least this post is over because I cant change your mind and you cant change mine--happy holidays and merry xmas
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    Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    BOBO::Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle.

    Doggcrapp:: You did!!! By saying clomid and nolvadex dont work at all with exog test in the system--well guess what almost everyone has exogenous test in the system during the first week and maybe even the second week off-FACT! whether from hydrolizing slowly or half life. And since clomid is only used for 2 weeks at a time you explain it to me then because your saying yes and no at the same time

    BOBO:: They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the &quot;cruise&quot; peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS!.

    Doggcrapp::if you have exogenous test in your system from fridays shot for 10 days im sorry but thats exog test in the system at the same time nolvadex and clomid is being used

    Bobo:o I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Doggcrapp:: Yes please and make it kind of like how Nandi made you two look like complete idiots with the clomid study he screwed up your holier than thou opinion on ok--that was classic--tell him thank you for at least having an open mind and saying &quot;speculation&quot; because its just that &quot;speculation&quot; on my part. Im going to end this now because its one thng for us to go arguing back and forth but its quite another when I see you guys ask for help on your home board chemical muscle and then get made to look bad there.

    You can't be this dense. It just can't be possible.


    After your cycle! As in when levels are not SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL!!! Nolva and Clomid work when levels are NORMAL and/or BELOW! Get that through your head. THe whole arguement is based on DURING your cycle, not AFTER. Your cruis in which 100mg, sometimes 50mg is DURING!!! If you want to talk about PCT and WHY inhibitors are bad we can do that too!! If you actually think that I meant Nolva and Clomid dont' work at all on test production then you need to stop dropping weights on your head. CHeck my posts. I always recommened Nolva AFTER!

    If you still have exogneous test in your system and your are ABOVE normal levels then NOLVA/CLOMID will NOT raise test levels. Why? Because their is NOT an imbalance! At least understand the mechanism of how they work before stating your bougs theories!

    The clomid study showed how the mechanisms worked and in the end AGREED! You did read it right? YOUR WRONG! And read what Nandi wrote concerning Clomid!!

    From Nandi:

    "I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    Get the point?


    I dont' care about home boards because Chemical Muscle isn't mine and its not I even one go to, so I don't know what your talking about. I don't care if you look bad. When you provide theories without a clue your going to be called out!! You asked for evidence and I gave it to. Should I interpret it for you so you can't actually understand what it says?

    You don't understand your OWN THEORY!
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    I missed where Nandi made me look like an idiot
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    Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    So on my part at least this post is over because I cant change your mind and you cant change mine--happy holidays and merry xmas
    Thats fine. Arguements aside, you have a Happy Holidays and Xmas yourself.
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    Also to note, I am not up on your evolving theory, this is taken from page 1 on the infamous "Cycles on Pennies" thread:

    Sorry bout that, I wrote that post quickly and I should of been a little more responsible with saying-those dosages are what I am seeing superheavies who have been around for a while doing. I am of the opinion that people should use the lowest dosages possible that will keep them gaining. If a newbie bodybuilder starts off with 2 grams of T every week and a high dose of fina etc etc and eventually taps out on that where is he going to go? 4000 a week? I believe one should make their way up 750, to 1000 to 1200 to 1500 and so on slowly thru cycles. I am an advocate of the 4 week on 2 week cruising (then back on) method not because of receptor site saturation but due to 3 very important (to me) factors...1)I lift extremely heavy and I push the limits for 4 weeks and I just need 2 weeks to kind of regroup myself and then go balls to the wall again with poundages for the next 4 weeks
    2)Same with food intake-I religiously get in 500 to 600 grams of protein and I have to give myself a little break for those 2 weeks(i only go down to 400grams or so) or I'll go crazy
    3) I think its of utmost importance to keep yourself regulated hpta wise. If your endogenous test levels diminish due to constant months of high androgens when you do finally come off those size gains fly out the door...if you can keep your endo test somewhat normal you wont get the huge problems that keep most bodybuilders bouncing up and down in bodyweight like yo yo's..namely getting colds and flu's/injuries/depression/lack of aggresion and appetite (which usually means test to estrogen ratio out of whack)...During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.
    As far as GH, I have never used it and I wish I could. But the cost is just too much for me at this time. From what I've witnessed short cycles will not do anything so unless I can run it for at least 6 months I am not going to bother. Opinions down here vary but most follow Milos's lead and do 5 days on 2 days off at 6IU's a day or 6 days on 4 off.
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    Originally posted by theprolangtum
    During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.



    I just don't have the energy anymore. I need to go eat
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    Funny when things end this way.
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    Happy Kwanza to everyone and to all a goodnight. I love a heated debate. Especially when its something of interest. Thank you gentlemen for the entertainment for the evening.
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    This thread is absolutely rediculous, and entertaining--more fun than playing with amorphous solids.
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    Due to my ignorance and blatant disrespect I will leave now..
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    Yes please do. Your presence here weakens the board.
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    Originally posted by Jedi Master
    Due to my ignorance and blatant disrespect I will leave now..
    LOL, looks like BOBO edited your post there buddy That's some funny stuff.
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    This is kind of like a "Clash of the Titans" episode

    I say this, admittedly from a point of ignorance relatively speaking, and with all due respect. Because I've learned a lot from reading posts from Bobo, the other mods in here, and from DC also.

    Is it possible that the truth lies somewhere in the middle here, like most things in life?

    What little I know about our endocrine systems, is that the glands work to stay in balance. If one, or several are putting out more or less, the others will try to compensate to the degree they can.

    Generally speaking, Swale's experience is that Clomid and Nolva won't stimulate endogenous production in the presence of exogenous supplementation that is OVER AND ABOVE what we normally would be producing.

    But perhaps THAT LEVEL, whatever it is for each of us on an individual basis, is higher after a prolonged androgen cycle? Which might also explain why DC, with his trainees still having SOME level of exogenous androgens present due to their half-lives, have experienced benefits even if they SHOULDN'T?

    I know this is pure speculation on my part and no, I don't have any formal training or studies. Still, something like this concept may account for the different experiences.

    Be well guys
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    It is possible PC1. I have considerd the same thoughts before.

    For instance as DC was trying to get across, most will start clomid, etc. about 7 days after last injection. However, we know that after 7 days, exogenous test is still present. Yet these individual do recover. It is possbile that the body "prepares" for recover in these situations.

    However, the scientific studies lean heavily towards Bobo's stance.

    Sometimes, people just have to agree to disagree and do what works best for you.
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    If the levels drop below normal range, then it should stimulate test because there is an imbalance to compensate. Thats how they work. He's syas they recover but how does he prove this? Blood tests? Even those are inconclusive because you stuill have circulating test and these drugs do mimic LH response. These drugs do cause a rapid rise in LH but that does not mean that Test levels automaticially increase. Even certain AAS stimluate massive LH response in the first week before they bottom out. So concluding recovery is happening in a 2 week peroid is ridiculous because true recovery does not happen within this time frame. Most studies examine 3,6,9 and 12 months checks. This is the same theory Fonz used with his D-bol bridge because he found a study showing D-bol increasing LH levels within the first week, BUT test levels remained suppressed! Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.


    Use of clomiphene citrate to reverse premature andropause secondary to steroid abuse.

    Tan RS, Vasudevan D.

    Department of Family and Community Medicine, University of Texas Health Sciences Center, Houston, Texas 77030, USA. robert.s.tan@uth.tmc.edu

    "Clomiphene citrate is used typically in helping to restore fertility in females. This represents the first case report of the successful use of clomiphene to restore T levels and the pituitary-gonadal axis in a male patient. The axis was previously shut off with multiple anabolic steroid abuse.


    Notice the drop at the 5 month peroid.
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    Nothing like a nice graph.

    Also, I think, as you just stressed, it is important to look at recovery as a lengthy process.
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    Okay... To be honest with you guys.... I am now confused as all hell!

    Is there a sort of medium ground that can be reached?

    How would you cycle TE, Tren, and Winny tabs for optimal effects?
    I know you all will probly tell me to do a search... but after reading this thread- I honestly couldn't even tell you where my own ass is!

    The delimma I'm facing is that I want to stay on cycle for as long as possible while at the same time being considerate of PCT and keeping gains.
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    Nothing like winning an argument with a graph. Excellent job Bobo
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    Originally posted by Blatalian
    The delimma I'm facing is that I want to stay on cycle for as long as possible while at the same time being considerate of PCT and keeping gains.
    You can do as Bobo suggests (if i'm understood this thread correctly), which is to do your cycle and periodically add HCG until your cycle ends. At which time you do your normal PCT.

    Or you do as DC recommends, cruising every 4-6 weeks using clo/nolva/hcg and then continuing the cycle. I think the common ground between Bobo and DC is that HCG shoud be used periodically on long cycles and either way it would be better than doing nothing.
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    Look at it this way:

    1. Can you recover during a 2 week peroid? No.

    2. Can you get the testes to respond to LH with Clomid and/or NOlva during this 2 week peroid? No

    3. Can you get the testes to respond to HCG during this peroid? Yes

    4. Can you help recovery by increasing the testes sensitivity to LH post cycle using HCG during your cycle? Theoretically, yes.

    5. Is suppression the same with 100mg/week compared to 1g/week? Yes.

    6. Can you get the same response (testes repsonse to LH) using HCG with higher doses throughout your cycle? Yes.

    Therefore lowering doses is pointelss and using Clomid/Nolva to increase recovery is pointless. Keep doses high and use HCG and you should recover better. This way you get increased recovery while MAXIMIZING gains. THis is not for everyone and should only be used with longer cycles. Even then you should consider health consequences when using high doses for long peroids of time.
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  30. PC1
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    On the graph............

    Is there any explanation given in this case as to why there is such a HUGE swing from month 3 up to month 4, down to month 5, and then back up at month 6??? Endocrinologically speaking, all HELL has brooken loose? That's a roller coaster ride if ever there was one?!


    Bobo.....

    from your post above:

    BUT test levels remained suppressed! (in Fonz' d-bol bridge) Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.

    I'm also confused by this Bobo. I thought the REASON that hcg stimulates one's testicles into production is that it DOES mimic LH? Here's a cut from BigCat's hcg profile on bb.com:

    During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

    So while I understand that HCG "works" in this situation, I'm also now confused as to why it works?

    And btw, your 6 points post above spells all the rest of this discussion very nicely. Thanks.

    Thanks guys.
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    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless and you could of taken 2 poptarts and gotten the same results. Because the facts are that a majority of people using super supplements in this world still have varying amounts of test/steroids in their system ABOVE NATURAL LEVELS for the following weeks after they get "off" --the VERY EXACT SAME TIME that they use clomid for two weeks. Make your own conclusions-you already know mine.
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    Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless and you could of taken 2 poptarts and gotten the same results. Because the facts are that a majority of people using super supplements in this world still have varying amounts of test/steroids in their system ABOVE NATURAL LEVELS for the following weeks after they get &quot;off&quot; --the VERY EXACT SAME TIME that they use clomid for two weeks. Make your own conclusions-you already know mine.
    Nobody is going to have superphysiological levels of exogenous hormones two weeks after a cycle with a regular esterfied compound like enanthate or cypionate.
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    Originally posted by PC1
    On the graph............

    Is there any explanation given in this case as to why there is such a HUGE swing from month 3 up to month 4, down to month 5, and then back up at month 6??? Endocrinologically speaking, all HELL has brooken loose? That's a roller coaster ride if ever there was one?!


    Bobo.....

    from your post above:

    BUT test levels remained suppressed! (in Fonz' d-bol bridge) Why? Because in an environment where exogenous hormones are present the testes do NOT respons to increases in LH. HCG bypasses this whole problem and why I recommended that instead. Even then you can uses higher doses and STILL get the saem effect.

    I'm also confused by this Bobo. I thought the REASON that hcg stimulates one's testicles into production is that it DOES mimic LH? Here's a cut from BigCat's hcg profile on bb.com:

    During long duration cycles, if natural test stays suppressed for considerable time, a male user will begin to note an atrophy in his testicles, meaning they will visibly shrink purely out of disuse. By administering an LH-mimicking agent, one can bring back the function of the testicles and let them regain their size. This is the main use of HCG.

    So while I understand that HCG &quot;works&quot; in this situation, I'm also now confused as to why it works?

    And btw, your 6 points post above spells all the rest of this discussion very nicely. Thanks.

    Thanks guys.
    I think Nandi put it best.

    ""I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    Clomd and Nolva do not directly effect LH production. They suppress estrogen and creat an imbalance of hormones. In response GnRH is stimulated which in turn increases LH pulses stimulating the testes to produce more testosterone to make up for the imbalance. HCG doens't care about the imbalanbce and has shown to DIRECTLY effect the testes. It basically bypasses the feedback mechanism. Clomid and Nolva do it through a number of pathways and the imbalance one of them.



    PC1 were not worried about raising testosteron during the cycle. Were basically increasing the chances of the testes to repson to LH and then in turn product testosterone. Clomid and Nolva will not make the testes respond to LH when exogenous hormones are present. HCG does directly stimlate the testes and makes them more respondent to LH when all is said and done. At least thats the theory Swale proposes.
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    Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    For anyone in this forum who has ever used anything except Hcg postcycle, heck why stop there--to any bodybuilder in this world (and theres millions of you) who has used clomid, nolvadex, and/or arimidex postcycle and felt it helped recovery-Bobo has just told you that what you did was absolutely useless
    What are you talking about? I'm not even talking post cycle, I'm talking about your cruise peroid.

    Recovery takes months, not 2 weeks. If you think you can recover in 2 weeks, your nuts.


    Super Supplements? Are you talking about contamination? You can't be because then you would make me laugh all weekend. They measure metabolies in testing and its usually around 1% of 1%. It has zero effect on the body. Please say you didn't mean that.....
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    Originally posted by Bobo
    Look at it this way:

    1. Can you recover during a 2 week peroid? No.

    2. Can you get the testes to respond to LH with Clomid and/or NOlva during this 2 week peroid? No

    3. Can you get the testes to respond to HCG during this peroid? Yes

    4. Can you help recovery by increasing the testes sensitivity to LH post cycle using HCG during your cycle? Theoretically, yes.

    5. Is suppression the same with 100mg/week compared to 1g/week? Yes.

    6. Can you get the same response (testes repsonse to LH) using HCG with higher doses throughout your cycle? Yes.

    Therefore lowering doses is pointelss and using Clomid/Nolva to increase recovery is pointless. Keep doses high and use HCG and you should recover better. This way you get increased recovery while MAXIMIZING gains. THis is not for everyone and should only be used with longer cycles. Even then you should consider health consequences when using high doses for long peroids of time.

    Just curious....
    I'm planning to utilize DC's methods.

    From what you said above, it sounds like DC's methods have a practical use. I should just replace the Clomid with HCG.. right?

    DC:
    Can you give me some advice on cycling Winny Tabs and Tren Acetate using your cycling metohds.
    -I'm still on cycle and have been since Oct. 20th.
    -I started w/500 mgs of TE and 300 mgs of Primo (I also started and discontinued Var and winny depot)
    -From Nov.2nd to Dec.4th I took approx. 75mgs of fina daily.
    -Currently I'm taking 250mgs of TE on Tuesdays and Fridays.

    I want to continue this cycle... I don't feel that I'm ready to get off of it and I am just now begining to see results.
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    Originally posted by Blatalian



    Just curious....
    I'm planning to utilize DC's methods.

    From what you said above, it sounds like DC's methods have a practical use. I should just replace the Clomid with HCG.. right?

    DC:
    Can you give me some advice on cycling Winny Tabs and Tren Acetate using your cycling metohds.
    -I'm still on cycle and have been since Oct. 20th.
    -I started w/500 mgs of TE and 300 mgs of Primo (I also started and discontinued Var and winny depot)
    -From Nov.2nd to Dec.4th I took approx. 75mgs of fina daily.
    -Currently I'm taking 250mgs of TE on Tuesdays and Fridays.

    I want to continue this cycle... I don't feel that I'm ready to get off of it and I am just now begining to see results.
    From what I said above? Umm...From what I said above shows how DC's methods make no sense. DC recommends lowering doses which don't make sense. DC recommends using Climd/Nolva during cycle which doesn't make sense. (unless for gyno prevention)

    Its Swales method that encourages HCG throughout. Bacially all your have to do is plan your cycle then take shots of HCG throughout at 500-1000iu.

    If your just seeing results now then either your stuff was fake, you didn't train right, or you didn't eat right.

    I suggest you remedy those first.
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    Originally posted by Bobo


    From what I said above? Umm...From what I said above shows how DC's methods make no sense. DC recommends lowering doses which don't make sense. DC recommends using Climd/Nolva during cycle which doesn't make sense. (unless for gyno prevention)

    Its Swales method that encourages HCG throughout. Bacially all your have to do is plan your cycle then take shots of HCG throughout at 500-1000iu.

    If your just seeing results now then either your stuff was fake, you didn't train right, or you didn't eat right.

    I suggest you remedy those first.
    I'm not trying to argue with you bro....
    From what I see the main descrepancy that you have with DC's cycle is that he advocates Clomid, Nolva, and HCG... not just HCG.
    If you don't agree, I understand, but that's the way I interpret this whole situation.

    Can you give me a link explaing SWALE's cycle method.. You've got me interested. And yes, I already did perform a search ... No Go.

    And you are absolutely right about me not Training or Eating right.... I confess.
    As far as the training .. I just started DC's regime....
    As far as eating... I've given up .... I just eat as much as I can... and take in as much protein as I can. (I'm not a big eater.)

    I must be doing something right though... I've gained 50lbs naturally... before I even considered juicing. My diet hasn't changed much since then.
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    Then if it works for you don't change it despite what science says, keep doing what WORKS for you.
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    Originally posted by RaulJimenez
    Then if it works for you don't change it despite what science says, keep doing what WORKS for you.
    If you didn't read his post he has been using AAS for almost 2 months and just now is seeing results so something is not right.
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    Originally posted by Blatalian


    I'm not trying to argue with you bro....
    From what I see the main descrepancy that you have with DC's cycle is that he advocates Clomid, Nolva, and HCG... not just HCG.
    If you don't agree, I understand, but that's the way I interpret this whole situation.

    Can you give me a link explaing SWALE's cycle method.. You've got me interested. And yes, I already did perform a search ... No Go.

    And you are absolutely right about me not Training or Eating right.... I confess.
    As far as the training .. I just started DC's regime....
    As far as eating... I've given up .... I just eat as much as I can... and take in as much protein as I can. (I'm not a big eater.)

    I must be doing something right though... I've gained 50lbs naturally... before I even considered juicing. My diet hasn't changed much since then.
    Then something is not right because there isn't any reason wyh you shouldn't have seen results earlier.

    The other discepency is that he recommeneds dropping doses because he thinks this has positive effects on recovery. It doesn't. If so, then the bridge and tapering theory would be legit too and everyone know they are bogus. Its the same principles.

    SWALE theory is over at CEM, not here.

    http://www.cuttingedgemuscle.com/For...der=descending

    Take your pic



    Don't fall into that group that is so intimdated by science that they don't tihnk it applies to you. These studies are done on REAL people in the REAL world who used REAL streroids. For some reason "some" people see a study and think since its conducted in a lab it doesn't apply to you.
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