DoggCrap Cycle Question?

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  1. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    Excuse me while I laugh at this Bobo sentence: "But he suggests Clomid, which most certainly will NOT kickstart LH pulses when hormones are present"

    PROVE IT! You are "most certain" about it--prove it to me and everyone here. Otherwise you spew your theory and your theory only. Since I havent seen a NEJM or medline abstract showing that so and so amount of minimal ng test in the body renders clomid completely inert and worthless, please show me where I can find that study. So testosterone has to be absolutely zero whether exog or endogenous for clomid to work? Wow thats incredible youve broken the code of what every bodybuilder has been doing for years successfully but I guess it was a placebo all these years.

    Nolvadex and Clomid work both by creating an imbalance of hormones by which the body produces more testosterone to compensate. When your taking 400mg/week of test, where is the imbalance to be resolved?

    There are many codes in bodybulding that are complete bull****. This is another one.
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  2. Originally posted by Doggcrapp

    PROVE IT!
    Thats your job bigshot. Every endocrinologist will tell you the same. Its your theory so prove it.

    Clomid and Nolva is widely recognized as stimulating production when exogenous amoutns are not present! You saying otherwise so PROVE IT! If not its just another bull**** theory...
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  3. Check the socreboard? I dont try to be some sort of internet training guru. I also dont think it is healthy to stay on for extended periods of time as you advocate. Everyone has to come off sometime.

  4. All I know is that DoggCrap has never steered me wrong. If you don't agree with his theories then that is up to you. Also, just like all weight training programs, supplements, etc. If his theory does not work for you then fine don't use it. I for one respect DoggCrap and his theories.

  5. As I stated before, I think his workout theories are great, Ive seen people benefit from them.
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  6. Originally posted by legaljuicer
    All I know is that DoggCrap has never steered me wrong. If you don't agree with his theories then that is up to you. Also, just like all weight training programs, supplements, etc. If his theory does not work for you then fine don't use it. I for one respect DoggCrap and his theories.
    I don't doubt his training techniques at all, just his interpretation of physiological issues.

    Theories are fine, but it usually helps when you acutally have some sort of scientific evidence to back it up. I haven't seen any. I don't take peoples results as scientific evidence. Thats all speculation to me.
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  7. No one is questioning his training techniques. I think his approach to training is excellent.

    His theory on novladex and clomid is being questioned.

  8. You keep quoting 400mg a week---I said 100 then 75 then 50 mwf thats a descending dose of test prop the first week and hcg used the second week. Regardless of what I say a big superheavyweight on the national scene who is close to his pro card isnt going to get off usually and thats where you make a compromise with cruising dosage.

    I dont advocate year round cycling--I dont advocate any cycling-I go by the individual and what he previously did and what he wants to do--I work with their choices not mine

    Theory is what advances this sport. Insulin, GH, antiestrogens and half the modern day concepts used started with theory. Im sorry but I dont think any university is going to run out and say "hey lets do a study on clomid to help long term anabolic using bodybuilders" so what does that leave us with--theory, guesswork and experiences. I would like an answer from you two on the following--Do you believe every bodybuilder in history who used clomid nolvadex and arimidex etc when coming off his cycle had absolutely zero amounts of exogenous steroids in his system at that time? There has been admittedly one million people out of the 300 million people in this country who have admitted to using steroids--so if we look back over the last decade at least at people using this "coming off" protocol are you going to tell this forum that every single one of those multi million number of bodybuilders who used the clom/nolv etc regimen successfully coming off had absolutely zero amounts of exogenous steroids in their system?

  9. DC..............with the descending dosage for 1 week, does that mean no test the second?

  10. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    You keep quoting 400mg a week---I said 100 then 75 then 50 mwf thats a descending dose of test prop the first week and hcg used the second week. Regardless of what I say a big superheavyweight on the national scene who is close to his pro card isnt going to get off usually and thats where you make a compromise with cruising dosage.

    I dont advocate year round cycling--I dont advocate any cycling-I go by the individual and what he previously did and what he wants to do--I work with their choices not mine

    Theory is what advances this sport. Insulin, GH, antiestrogens and half the modern day concepts used started with theory. Im sorry but I dont think any university is going to run out and say "hey lets do a study on clomid to help long term anabolic using bodybuilders" so what does that leave us with--theory, guesswork and experiences. I would like an answer from you two on the following--Do you believe every bodybuilder in history who used clomid nolvadex and arimidex etc when coming off his cycle had absolutely zero amounts of exogenous steroids in his system at that time? There has been admittedly one million people out of the 300 million people in this country who have admitted to using steroids--so if we look back over the last decade at least at people using this "coming off" protocol are you going to tell this forum that every single one of those multi million number of bodybuilders who used the clom/nolv etc regimen successfully coming off had absolutely zero amounts of exogenous steroids in their system?
    Thats fine for the pro BB'er and understand why he has to stay on. I don't really care about that. I'm more concerned about the suppression issues and how small of an amount you need to take for you to be suppressed. I haven't seen any evidnece (in medical studies) that show more suppression on 1g/week than 250mg/week. If ther is, its extremely small. What you would have to do it take a level below even normal physiological levels (as you suggest now) and even then the actualy benefit is practically zero. You're never completey shutdown and most studies usually show a maximum of 70% shut down in normal men. SO bascially what it boils down to is that you recommend such a low dose as to not cause suppression but then forget to take into account those doses will have almost zero effect on the body (basically mimicing low testosterone levels). I mean 2.5mg of Anavar suppresses you (which doesn't even aromatize) and do you think less than 2.5mg would have any effect on you in terms of effect? So either you take enough to benefit you and be suppressed, or you take below normal levels to avoid being suppressed and gain practically zero benefit.

    Theory does advance the sport but those usually are based on extrapolation from different studies to come up with a viable conclusion. You have shown zero evidence to support your theories.


    I can easily answer those questions. Depending on the substance and rate of metabolism into various metabiolites, the rate of suppression decreases as supraphysiologiocal amounts decrease and fall below normal ranges. Once that happens the feedback loop isn't effected anymore and natural progression can occur.

    I already told you HCG would be a benefit as it DIRECTLY mimics LH response allowing testes to recovery in size. This does NOT equate to a rise in testosterone though as the the body is already within suprphysiological ranges for some time until levels decrease. Your basically saying your tricking your body to producing more and it doesn't work that way. In that case we could alwasy stay on all the time and never really get suppressed that hard.

    Another way to look at this is that you think you can actually effect recovery during you cycle by reducing doses to subnormal levels and using HCG. Your not going to be able to raise Test production that much anyway whithin that short of time peroid. Even if you do you just going to supress them again when you resume normal dosing. Now if your not worried about test production and basically saying that the use of HCG is priming your testes to recover after everything is done, then thats fine. BUt you seem to forget that you achieve that SAME effect while keeping doses HIGH during the WHOLE cycle. Use your HCG but keep doses high throughout the whole cycle. This is what Swale recommends. Eliminate the rise in test production because its just not going to happen in such short of time peroid anyway. Worry about mimicing LH pulses with HCG, keep testes fairly large and you should help in recovery. Thinking your actually going to rise test production in such a short persoid of time just doesn't match what the studies suggest. In some instances recovery is up to 12 months, with peaks and valley within the 3,6,9 month peroids. 2 weeks won't do anything.
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  11. where can you buy hcg? or is it an illegal drug? just not sure if its like clomid/nolva is all.

    thx guys, this is a great read

  12. bobo: You have shown zero evidence to support your theories.

    Doggcrapp:: I agree that even small amounts cause suppression but even then you guys dont see my point because your working with different goals that I have to work with in people. Alot of guys dont want to lose any size between cycles--none--zip--zilch--because they have appearances, priorities in which they have to show up in shape, or they are going for a show and dont want to take a step backward etc etc. I try to find the minimal amount of cruising dosage that will keep their size before they go back on again, for some that will be just like I outlined. For some others they want to do a little bit more (its up to them). My evidence is working with people like this and seeing blood tests etc and you can take it or leave it. My question on the bottom of my last post still goes unanswered. Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol
    So remember that guys who are reading this-you might as well get off completely cold turkey and hope for the best with crossed fingers because no amount of clomid nolvadex or arimidex is going to help you with recovery if your using any Test other than suspension or propionate on the friday before. Good luck trying to keep that muscle mass on you

  13. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    bobo: You have shown zero evidence to support your theories.

    Doggcrapp:: I agree that even small amounts cause suppression but even then you guys dont see my point because your working with different goals that I have to work with in people. Alot of guys dont want to lose any size between cycles--none--zip--zilch--because they have appearances, priorities in which they have to show up in shape, or they are going for a show and dont want to take a step backward etc etc. I try to find the minimal amount of cruising dosage that will keep their size before they go back on again, for some that will be just like I outlined. For some others they want to do a little bit more (its up to them). My evidence is working with people like this and seeing blood tests etc and you can take it or leave it. My question on the bottom of my last post still goes unanswered. Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol
    So remember that guys who are reading this-you might as well get off completely cold turkey and hope for the best with crossed fingers because no amount of clomid nolvadex or arimidex is going to help you with recovery if your using any Test other than suspension or propionate on the friday before. Good luck trying to keep that muscle mass on you

    First of all its not my theory. It Swales clinical facts. He runs an HRT clinic that also deals with patients who abuse steroids. He studies this in a clinincal setting under controlled conditions. He has plenty of abstracts to back it up and if you actually took the time to look it up over at CEM, you can have all the evidence you want. I'm just telling you his point of view and frankly I trust someone that actually works with this every day in the medical profession than a trainer who clearly doesn't even understand the mechanism of actions in these drugs.

    YOU are the one hasn't provided anything.

    By your last post you clearly haven't even understood one WORD I've said. Your method does not allow the time NEEDED for anf amount of significangt recovery. Why? Because you go right back ON after 2 weeks! If you think you can recover TESTOSTERONE production any significant degree then you've been using something other than AAS.

    Remember DC this is YOUR theory. YOU have the burned of PROOF. So far you haven't given anyone anything but hearsay.

    From SWALE:

    "Clomid does not cause an increase in LH (and therefore endogenous T production) in an environment of androgenic suppression. IOW, the "Clomid burst" is a myth.

    Well, complete suppression is complete suppression. I regularly see this at dosages of just 100mg per week. At whatever weekly dose that happens, beyond that, the LH production is flatlined at <0.1. We do know (experientially), though, that testicular atrophy becomes more and more evident as time goes on, and it seems to me this may have something to do with--in fact, may be the most important part of--recovery. The HP begins to produce LH rather quickly (as serum androgen concentration drops below whatever threshold each man possesses). I believe recovery is moreso a matter of getting the testes to respond to LH stimulation."

    This is from someone who does this specific thing for a living.

    From Nandi:

    "I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    In other words the use of HCG is fine to keep the testes primed for when you come off. Clomid and Nolva during cycle will have almost ZERO effect, unless used for a prolonged peroid of time WITHOUT exogenous hormones.



    Here's your low dose supression too:

    Testosterone dose-response relationships in healthy young men

    1 Division of Endocrinology, Metabolism, and Molecular Medicine, Charles R. Drew University of Medicine and Science, Los Angeles 90059; 2 Laboratory for Exercise Sciences, El Camino College, and 3 Harbor-University of California Los Angeles Medical Center, Torrance, California 90502; and 4 Biomedical Mass Spectrometric Research Resource, Department of Internal Medicine, Washington University, School of Medicine, St. Louis, Missouri 63110


    "Hormone levels. Serum total and free testosterone levels (Table 2), measured during week 16, 1 wk after the previous injection, were linearly dependent on the testosterone dose (P = 0.0001). Serum total and free testosterone concentrations decreased from baseline in men receiving the 25- and 50-mg doses and increased at 300- and 600-mg doses. Serum LH levels were suppressed in all groups"

    Full Text:

    http://ajpendo.physiology.org/cgi/co...ll/281/6/E1172

    Now your going to suppressed even more since you just came off and going into the cruise cycle.


    Going to lift now
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  14. Originally posted by 2gcorey
    where can you buy hcg? or is it an illegal drug? just not sure if its like clomid/nolva is all.

    thx guys, this is a great read
    Read the stickes and profiles. Please research. Thank you.
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  15. Thats a beautiful gathering of facts Bobo


    A tear drops from my eye

  16. And if we are going by real world experience, i have routinely ran 10-12 week cycles, came off with HCG use in the last two weeks while comounds are active, and then used nolva for PCT therapy in conjunction with slin. I usually only lose a small amount of water, maybe 5 lbs. I havent withered up, gotten sick or anything like that. And guess what? 8 weeks after I start PCT, i am already in the process of making natural gains, and am fully recovered to hit another cycle.

  17. doggcrapp::Basically what your saying is if on a friday someone takes a shot of cypionate and on monday they start clomid, arimidex and nolvadex therapy as I outlined for 2 weeks that those 3 compounds do absolutely nothing during that time except knock down a little water retention--lol

    Bobo::Clomid and Nolva during cycle will have almost ZERO effect, unless used for a prolonged peroid of time WITHOUT exogenous hormones

    Doggcrapp:: thats all I wanted to see thanks. You have just proved that the millions of bodybuilders in this world who have been trying to recover after cycles are doing nothing but placebo work all these years and they would be just as good if they went cold turkey. Frankly Ill take the millions of bodybuilders experiences and opinions over one guy named Bobo. Clomid is usually run for 2 weeks at a time so I can take your suggestion as "dont start clomid for 4 weeks after ending a shot of sustonon" correct? The above studies are great thanks and proved to me what i already agreed with (suppression happens while on)

  18. DC you do know what exogenous hormones are right?

    Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle. They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the "cruise" peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS! Basically your cruise theory is bogus and you can't even find one shread of evidence to back it up.

    Do I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Unbelievable....
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  19. Originally posted by theprolangtum
    Thats a beautiful gathering of facts Bobo


    A tear drops from my eye



    Check your PM's
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  20. BOBO::Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle.

    Doggcrapp:: You did!!! By saying clomid and nolvadex dont work at all with exog test in the system--well guess what almost everyone has exogenous test in the system during the first week and maybe even the second week off-FACT! whether from hydrolizing slowly or half life. And since clomid is only used for 2 weeks at a time you explain it to me then because your saying yes and no at the same time

    BOBO:: They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the "cruise" peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS!.

    Doggcrapp::if you have exogenous test in your system from fridays shot for 10 days im sorry but thats exog test in the system at the same time nolvadex and clomid is being used

    Bobo:o I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Doggcrapp:: Yes please and make it kind of like how Nandi made you two look like complete idiots with the clomid study he screwed up your "holier than thou" opinion on ok--that was classic--tell him thank you for at least having an open mind and saying "speculation" because its just that "speculation" on my part. Im going to end this now because its one thng for us to go arguing back and forth but its quite another when I see you guys ask for help on your home board chemical muscle and then get made to look bad there. I dont like to see things like that. So on my part at least this post is over because I cant change your mind and you cant change mine--happy holidays and merry xmas

  21. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    BOBO::Nobody said Nolva and Clomid don't work AFTER your cycle.

    Doggcrapp:: You did!!! By saying clomid and nolvadex dont work at all with exog test in the system--well guess what almost everyone has exogenous test in the system during the first week and maybe even the second week off-FACT! whether from hydrolizing slowly or half life. And since clomid is only used for 2 weeks at a time you explain it to me then because your saying yes and no at the same time

    BOBO:: They don't work raising testosterone DURING your cycle. They zero effect raising Testosterone DURING your cycle. At your doses your still ON during the &quot;cruise&quot; peroid. Using Nolva and Clomid during that time is POINTLESS!.

    Doggcrapp::if you have exogenous test in your system from fridays shot for 10 days im sorry but thats exog test in the system at the same time nolvadex and clomid is being used

    Bobo:o I have to draw pictures for you so you can understand it better?

    Doggcrapp:: Yes please and make it kind of like how Nandi made you two look like complete idiots with the clomid study he screwed up your holier than thou opinion on ok--that was classic--tell him thank you for at least having an open mind and saying &quot;speculation&quot; because its just that &quot;speculation&quot; on my part. Im going to end this now because its one thng for us to go arguing back and forth but its quite another when I see you guys ask for help on your home board chemical muscle and then get made to look bad there.

    You can't be this dense. It just can't be possible.


    After your cycle! As in when levels are not SUPRAPHYSIOLOGICAL!!! Nolva and Clomid work when levels are NORMAL and/or BELOW! Get that through your head. THe whole arguement is based on DURING your cycle, not AFTER. Your cruis in which 100mg, sometimes 50mg is DURING!!! If you want to talk about PCT and WHY inhibitors are bad we can do that too!! If you actually think that I meant Nolva and Clomid dont' work at all on test production then you need to stop dropping weights on your head. CHeck my posts. I always recommened Nolva AFTER!

    If you still have exogneous test in your system and your are ABOVE normal levels then NOLVA/CLOMID will NOT raise test levels. Why? Because their is NOT an imbalance! At least understand the mechanism of how they work before stating your bougs theories!

    The clomid study showed how the mechanisms worked and in the end AGREED! You did read it right? YOUR WRONG! And read what Nandi wrote concerning Clomid!!

    From Nandi:

    "I would think the obvious limitation of using Clomid in this way is that androgens themselves are quite capable of suppressing the HPTA independently of any aromatization. The clomid would help block the effects of estrogen's negative feedback inhibition on the hypothalamus and pituitary, but it will do nothing to prevent androgen feedback suppression of LH production. HCG acts as synthetic LH to directly stimulate the testes, bypassing the problem just described that would arise if you simply attempted to use Clomid."

    Get the point?


    I dont' care about home boards because Chemical Muscle isn't mine and its not I even one go to, so I don't know what your talking about. I don't care if you look bad. When you provide theories without a clue your going to be called out!! You asked for evidence and I gave it to. Should I interpret it for you so you can't actually understand what it says?

    You don't understand your OWN THEORY!
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  22. I missed where Nandi made me look like an idiot

  23. Originally posted by Doggcrapp
    So on my part at least this post is over because I cant change your mind and you cant change mine--happy holidays and merry xmas
    Thats fine. Arguements aside, you have a Happy Holidays and Xmas yourself.
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  24. Also to note, I am not up on your evolving theory, this is taken from page 1 on the infamous "Cycles on Pennies" thread:

    Sorry bout that, I wrote that post quickly and I should of been a little more responsible with saying-those dosages are what I am seeing superheavies who have been around for a while doing. I am of the opinion that people should use the lowest dosages possible that will keep them gaining. If a newbie bodybuilder starts off with 2 grams of T every week and a high dose of fina etc etc and eventually taps out on that where is he going to go? 4000 a week? I believe one should make their way up 750, to 1000 to 1200 to 1500 and so on slowly thru cycles. I am an advocate of the 4 week on 2 week cruising (then back on) method not because of receptor site saturation but due to 3 very important (to me) factors...1)I lift extremely heavy and I push the limits for 4 weeks and I just need 2 weeks to kind of regroup myself and then go balls to the wall again with poundages for the next 4 weeks
    2)Same with food intake-I religiously get in 500 to 600 grams of protein and I have to give myself a little break for those 2 weeks(i only go down to 400grams or so) or I'll go crazy
    3) I think its of utmost importance to keep yourself regulated hpta wise. If your endogenous test levels diminish due to constant months of high androgens when you do finally come off those size gains fly out the door...if you can keep your endo test somewhat normal you wont get the huge problems that keep most bodybuilders bouncing up and down in bodyweight like yo yo's..namely getting colds and flu's/injuries/depression/lack of aggresion and appetite (which usually means test to estrogen ratio out of whack)...During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.
    As far as GH, I have never used it and I wish I could. But the cost is just too much for me at this time. From what I've witnessed short cycles will not do anything so unless I can run it for at least 6 months I am not going to bother. Opinions down here vary but most follow Milos's lead and do 5 days on 2 days off at 6IU's a day or 6 days on 4 off.

  25. Originally posted by theprolangtum
    During the cruising period the 400mg of test will keep you from losing any muscle at all and the clomid and arimidex will get you as close (via 2 different routes) to homeostasis as possible.



    I just don't have the energy anymore. I need to go eat
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  26. Funny when things end this way.

  27. Happy Kwanza to everyone and to all a goodnight. I love a heated debate. Especially when its something of interest. Thank you gentlemen for the entertainment for the evening.
  28. Klaus
    Klaus's Avatar

    This thread is absolutely rediculous, and entertaining--more fun than playing with amorphous solids.

  29. Due to my ignorance and blatant disrespect I will leave now..

  30. Yes please do. Your presence here weakens the board.
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