what keeps one from growing ?

[raybravo]

what ive seen in most people is , as soon as they see a stop in growth , the only solution they seem to be able to come up with is "increase dose of steroid used !" , we never sit back and look at other factors we can work on to beat the homeostasis , i happen to be jobless enuf to think about this lol , and when i was looking for info , here's something nice i found , written by bryan haycock :

"If you aren't growing it is because:
1) You aren't lifting enough weight (load)
2) You aren't lifting it enough times (volume)
3) You aren't training frequently enough
4) You aren't eating enough and/or eating properly
5) RBE has made your muscle tissue resistant to furhter growth (you must SD)
6) You are as big as your endocrine system and hypertrophy-specific training can support. (You would be pretty big already if this is the case) "

*SD= strategic deconditioning (giving the body a rest from training, read more at haycock's site www.hypertrophyspecific.com if u want ).

 

would like to see some more inputs on what can be done to beat homeostasis , all inputs appreciated . <!--Signature-->

 

[Matthew D]

One thing that might also be a factor is lack of rest/sleep. I know with many people these days cronic lack of good sleep is a factor in many aliments not just lack of growth

 

[raybravo]

yeah , using a sleep aid if thats what it takes to get a good sleep , something otc will do , but sleeping for 8-10 hrs just dreaming means ure not rested , u wake up tired and achy all over, then its defeating the purpose , also , ian king mentions that getting atleast 2 hrs sleep before midnight can be very beneficial , i read this a loong time ago though on t-mag , he also gave some evidence to this if i remember right .

 

[Matthew D]

one thing I was thinking about also was sleep disorders that cause a person to not get enough GOOD sleep

 

[raybravo]

how about using DI-INDOLY-METHANE(DIM) & INDOL-3-CARBINOL(I-3-C) ? they are supposed to inhibit the conversion enzyme  responsible for 16a-hydroxyestrone formation , this way, the body is forced to utilize the C-2 pathway and increase the production of 2a-hydroxyestrone , thus by aiding in a better 2a-hydroxyestrone  to 16a-hydroxyestrone ratio and the subsequent conversion to 2-methoxy estrone at a faster rate , we might be able to get away with higher estrogen levels . this is what swale posted recentyl at cem :
"I am very excited about the potential benefits of manipulating the 2-OH/16-A ratio of estrogen metabolites as well, as we may then be able to let estrogen go even higher without its deleterious effects."
also :
"Here's something you might get excited to hear: the FIRST guy to try it out, a doctor with a steroid history and longstanding hard gyno nodules, reported to me that same had ENTIRELY disappeared within two weeks of getting on the EstroBlock product. Granted, this single case has absolutely no validity from a scientific proof standpoint, but it sure did raise our eyebrows! "
suggested doses of each would be 500 mg/d of each DIM and I-3-C ,this also seems to reduce the  over all circulatory estrogen levels which increasing the so called good estrogens .


 

 

[raybravo]

incase anyone is wondering why we need estrogen (and not try to eliminate it completely):

a)the ability of an androgen to aromatise ,which may seem like a very undesirable effect at first , upon close observation , shows us how useful this property of an androgen can actually be :
in a study(1) where the effects of testosterone and stanozolol were compared for their effects on stimulating GH release. Testosterone enanthate (only 3 mg per kg per week) increased GH levels by 22% and IGF-1 levels by 21% whereas oral stanozolol (0.1mg per kg per day) had no effect whatsoever on GH or IGF-1 levels.
it is to be noted that IGF-1 increases satellite cell activity, muscle DNA content, muscle protein content, muscle weight and muscle cross sectional area (Adams,1998).
why is this so important ? "When satellite cells are prohibited from donating new nuclei, overloaded muscle will not grow (Rosenblatt,1992 & 1994; Phelan,1997). so , as we can see , the increase in igf-1 levels(which would be one of the results of estrogen)  in the body is very important to achieve muscle growth .
b)estrogen is not a fat accumulating agent ! yes thats right ! infact , its both an appetite supressive as well as a fat burning agent , recent research has reported that part of the fat burning ability of testosterone is due to estradiol (2) .
c)estrogen lowers levels of the enzyme lipoprotein lipase (LPL) , when LPL activity increases , the potential for adiposity increases (3)
d)estrogen also increases androgen receptor upregulation  , and this means what !?
its making ur testosterone work better ! also the more AR's , the more lipid uptake is inhibited(4)


(1)Fryburg DA., Weltman A., Jahn LA., et al: Short-term modulation of the androgen milieu alters pulsatile, but not exercise- or growth hormone releasing hormone-stimulated GH secretion in healthy men: Impact of gonadal steroid and GH secretory changes on metabolic outcomes.
 J Clin Endocrinol. Metab. 82(11):3710-37-19, 1997

(2) Metabolism 1997 Feb;46(2):179-85
Evidence for sex steroid inhibition of lipoprotein lipase in men: comparison of abdominal and femoral adipose tissue.
Ramirez ME, McMurry MP, Wiebke GA, Felten KJ, Ren K, Meikle AW, Iverius PH

(3) Metabolism 1993 Apr;42(4):446-50
The effect of testosterone aromatization on high-density lipoprotein cholesterol level and post heparin lipolytic activity.
Zmuda JM, Fahrenbach MC, Younkin BT, Bausserman LL, Terry RB, Catlin DH, Thompson PD.
Department of Medicine, Miriam Hospital, Providence, RI.

(4)Androgen hormone binding to adipose tissue in rats.
Biochim Biophys Acta. 1995 May 11;1244(1):117-20.

 

ofcourse , there is definitely something called too much estrogen , which would cause proliferation of preadipocytes into which can mature into fat cells,not to mention gyno etc . so what i'm trying to say here is , its best to maintain optimum levels of estrogen for all the above mentioned reasons , while not allowing estrogen levels to go out of control . use an aromatase inhibitor only if necessary .

 

[size]

Ray..................one of you best threads ever.
This list is so true. My biggest restraint is eating enough, and I know it.

Ray.....I read about SD a few days ago. However, I was not clear as to how often to do it. Haycock left it open eneded unless i missed something while I was reading along. Any insight?

 

[prolangtum]

I think SD has merits, but my ego may get in the way of doing it properly.

 

[Matthew D]

Think you might be right about ego BUT if you are serious about growing, then a small amount of time is a good thing.. and hell 9-12 days is not much.. good time to do the vacation or something

 

[ex_banana-eater]

b)estrogen is not a fat accumulating agent ! yes thats right ! infact , its both an appetite supressive as well as a fat burning agent , recent research has reported that part of the fat burning ability of testosterone is due to estradiol (2) .

ofcourse , there is definitely something called too much estrogen , which would cause proliferation of preadipocytes into which can mature into fat cells

What levels of estrogen?

 

[Matthew D]

Every person, both male and female have some levels of estrogen and testosterone... but as you have guess females ahve a hight lever of estrogen

 

[raybravo]

Originally posted by size
Ray..................one of you best threads ever.
This list is so true. My biggest restraint is eating enough, and I know it.

Ray.....I read about SD a few days ago. However, I was not clear as to how often to do it. Haycock left it open eneded unless i missed something while I was reading along. Any insight?

http://www.hypertrophy-specific.com/cgi-bin/ib3/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=13;t=14

 

that thread should clear most of your doubts on SD bro .

also , eating , one simple thing , say if u get 25 gms of dextrose and 1 table spoon of olive oil for the first 4 meals of ur day , uve got 100 gms carbs(400 cals) and 60 gms fat ( isnt it ?) , thats like another 500-600 cals , so a 100 cals over there , and u wouldnt have even noticed that uve increased food intake by 1000 cals , u see ?

 

[raybravo]

u have to see for urself , a point when u start noticing estrogen pattern fat deposits , in the stubborn fat areas , then u can control a little bit , its a fine line and u have to find the balance , what works for u , cos i can get away most of the time letting estrogen go uncontrolled , i think of lowering estrogen levels only at 1000 mg or above of testosterone per week .

 

[nsruffryder34]

I have been doing SD for awhile now..... it works, but you need to be able to see yourself as getting alot smaller for those 7-14 days, (i usually go 14 days)... it gets hard sometimes as you could loose a great deal of size, but within a few sessions its all back fast and more comes on. If you can get past the ego, i think it is a great way to add size without pumping your body full of unneccessary AAS. (not that theres anything wrong with that )

 

[raybravo]

lol , pumping the body full of AAS would mean , u have jumped to a higher dose while u still could grow off a lower dose , and grow well mind u . as u get bigger , then it will get very frustating to keep using those higher doses , just to see minimal gains ....i would normally like to exhaust all possiblities and then think of increasing doses ..

 

[nsruffryder34]

Yes, I wasnt being serious .... Im not a fan of increasing extemely increasing doses with each cycle.... IMHO you will at soemtiem start to loose muscle unless you continue doing 10 grams of test a week....

 

[whale]

this is a great thread for newbies and wannabies. Let me explain.... When I first started this whole darkside thing years ago I knew very little of the game. Infact I was just going by hear say.. Bad for me I know now but hey I was young. I felt that if I could gain 20 lbs on 500 mg a week then hell it should be 30 if I bump it up. Little did I understand of nutrition and lifting. I was looking for size and that was my goal. So I started doing more and more aas. This was the worst thing I could have done as now I dont even get a lb off of 500 mg a week. Very expensive to say the least. I even took a big layoff hoping to get a receptor reload. that diod not help either. so now I am forced to do 1000mg a week bad for my pocket for sure.So great job at offering other examples to more AAS. these will help newcomers as well as us old farts. I know that I am still learning as I think just about all of us are. Nutrition to me is key So I like to see people look at that first training second and so on. AAS would come in a close forht after these and rest. So great Job at keeping this thread going. Maybe it should be a new sticky!!

 

[size]

i would normally like to exhaust all possiblities and then think of increasing doses ..

This sounds like me.


Ray..........you are the saint of bodybuilding set directly from india. thanks mate as always.

 

[raybravo]

lol , saint huh ? lol , man thats funny if i imagine myself wearing those clothes lol , first 245 lb saint ever ! .

 

[raybravo]

Originally posted by nsruffryder34
IMHO you will at soemtiem start to loose muscle unless you continue doing 10 grams of test a week....

when i reach that stage, i am quitting bodybuilding and going back to collecting stamps

 

[scotty2]

this is a great thread for newbies and wannabies. Let me explain.... When I first started this whole darkside thing years ago I knew very little of the game. Infact I was just going by hear say.. Bad for me I know now but hey I was young. I felt that if I could gain 20 lbs on 500 mg a week then hell it should be 30 if I bump it up. Little did I understand of nutrition and lifting. I was looking for size and that was my goal. So I started doing more and more aas. This was the worst thing I could have done as now I dont even get a lb off of 500 mg a week. Very expensive to say the least. I even took a big layoff hoping to get a receptor reload. that diod not help either. so now I am forced to do 1000mg a week bad for my pocket for sure.So great job at offering other examples to more AAS. these will help newcomers as well as us old farts. I know that I am still learning as I think just about all of us are. Nutrition to me is key So I like to see people look at that first training second and so on. AAS would come in a close forht after these and rest. So great Job at keeping this thread going. Maybe it should be a new sticky!!

You hit the nail on the head, Whale. 80% of this game is diet. If you're not growing, you're not eating right. IMO, it's that simple.

 

[raybravo]

Originally posted by whale
This was the worst thing I could have done as now I dont even get a lb off of 500 mg a week. Very expensive to say the least. I even took a big layoff hoping to get a receptor reload. that diod not help either. so now I am forced to do 1000mg a week bad for my pocket for sure.

u can do quite a few things differently u know , i mean if ure not doing this already ... few options :
1) get ur bodyfat down to around 7-8 % , by eating less and over training towards the end , entering a catabolic state voulantarily u can say ... and then suddenly u increase calorie intake to around 25 cals per lb or so , and u will gain significantly for a while with very minimal increase in bf ,there are various explanations why this happens , but thats not important , whats important is that this happens , the body reaches the previous weight very quickly but this time with lots of muscle .
2)ever tried a 12 week cycle of avandia(rosiglitazone) ? say u do that and midway , u introduce very low dose slin while keeping the avandia thro out , the insulin sensitivity from this is crazy from my experience , when i used the avandia for 4 weeks and then shot 5 iu slin , i needed like 200 gms carbs ! to stop the hypo symptoms i was getting .
or even the anarchy stack i think would do a very good job at increasing insulin sensitivity , just saying increasing androgen dose might not be the best way for u at this point , increasing insulin sensitivity can work very well .
3)do a 21 day low dose dnp phase , that again gives u a crazy rebound when u come off it , u can eat unbelievable amounts of food and still not gain fat for a certain period of time .... its nice , and also , all steroids seem to work better ! some believe its becos of a positive effect dnp has on ALL receptors .
4)u could try doggcrapp's style or hypertrophy specific training a try .
just some options i thought off from the top of my head ....

 

[Iron Warrior]

Diet and rest have been the biggest factors in my experience. It may just be as simple as getting enough cals and protein for many people.

 

[size]

Here is one that I think often gets over looked: Proper mental focus and mental intensity.

I do this in and out of the gym. Before going to the gym, I like to think of all the exercises that I am going to do. Focus on the lift even before I hit the gym. I get my mind set to the point that "today is GOING to be better than every previous day" .

 

[Jstrong20]

I'd have to say the biggest for me is stress. I had a bad relationship and it shrunk me from 260lbs to 230lbs of fat. I'm still trying to build it back and its been months. I dieted down to 219lbs and finally I'm back to 236lbs. So I guess the best way to get big is to try and not let things bother you. So I agree with size and think maintaining focus is the most important.

 

[PC1]

STRESS..... CORTISOL.......

I know what you mean.

Bobo has posted good results PCT by concentrating on reducing cortisol levels. He has a thread somewhere on sups taken post cycle that helped him accomplish this.

 

[size]

To control cortisol take phosphtidylserine and vit.C in large dosages. also try FL7 by avant labs.

 

[raybravo]

if its mental or inner problems , how long will u depend on external methods ? the PS , vit c and fl7 etc will help dealing with the sudden lack of anti glucocorticoid effect which is not there off cycle , but if its mental , then u have to deal with it mentally , sort it out , meditate , whatever it takes u know ..?

 

[PC1]

Size and RayBravo...............

Thank you both for that info.

 

[Griffin]

I think # 2 & 3 are wrong not enough volume and not enough frequency. Their are way too many people out their that overtrain and stop growing because of it. They think they are not training enough so they up their volume or frequency or sometimes both and only make things worse, sometimes leading to an injury.

 

[raybravo]

not everything on that list applies to everyone , number 2 and 3 would simply apply to someone doing less , simple as that , its just identifying the problem and fixing it ...also , keep in mind bryan is talking to the hyertrophy specific training followers when saying that.

 

[Bean]

what ive seen in most people is , as soon as they see a stop in growth , the only solution they seem to be able to come up with is "increase dose of steroid used !" , we never sit back and look at other factors we can work on to beat the homeostasis , i happen to be jobless enuf to think about this lol , and when i was looking for info , here's something nice i found , written by bryan haycock :

"If you aren't growing it is because:
1) You aren't lifting enough weight (load)
2) You aren't lifting it enough times (volume)
3) You aren't training frequently enough
4) You aren't eating enough and/or eating properly
5) RBE has made your muscle tissue resistant to furhter growth (you must SD)
6) You are as big as your endocrine system and hypertrophy-specific training can support. (You would be pretty big already if this is the case) "

*SD= strategic deconditioning (giving the body a rest from training, read more at haycock's site www.hypertrophyspecific.com if u want ).

&nbsp;

would like to see some more inputs on what can be done to beat homeostasis , all inputs appreciated . <!--Signature-->

How bout this?

1) You are lifting TOO much weight (load)
2) You are lifting TOO many times (volume)
3) You are training TOO frequently (rest)

 

[raybravo]

if ure lifting too much weight , that is excerting urself to the max , u cant do too much volume , and if ure doing it too frequenty , with high volume , the nervous system gets in the way of increasing the loads used ...it gets over trained . either way , u can balance this out by increasing the food intake , the amount of anabolic steroids , sleep , being meticulous in every other way to balance out the equation , but the question is , can u do it ? the body cannot lift the heaviest loads ,again and again(volume) frequently , cos there is only so much it can take ...

 

[size]

I think people need to read more of Haycock's concepts and info on HST. It helps explain the reasons Ray presented.