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Another Hockey Thread...Ovechkin v Crosby

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    Malkin also goes through stretches where he disappears. I remember watching the first couple of game vs Washington and it was as though he wasn't even playing. I had to really look for him to even notice he wasn't a scratch.

    OT, but, as far as talent taken away by injuries is concerned, there has been few losses worse than Peter Mattias Forsberg. Watching him play was something I'll never forget and when he was healthy, he was always dominant. I think it was the '99 and '02 playoffs where he led the league in points even though the Avs where eliminated in the West Finals.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Malkin also goes through stretches where he disappears. I remember watching the first couple of game vs Washington and it was as though he wasn't even playing. I had to really look for him to even notice he wasn't a scratch.
    Definitely agree. This comes back to the patent streakiness in Russian-born players I spoke about earlier. Ethnocentrism aside, Russian-born players are notoriously and undeniably streaky!

    OT, but, as far as talent taken away by injuries is concerned, there has been few losses worse than Peter Mattias Forsberg. Watching him play was something I'll never forget and when he was healthy, he was always dominant. I think it was the '99 and '02 playoffs where he led the league in points even though the Avs where eliminated in the West Finals.
    Agree. He was ridiculous.
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    I'll take Ovechkin over Crybaby, er, Crosby any day. But I'll take Datsyuk over both in a heartbeat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    I'll take Ovechkin over Crybaby, er, Crosby any day. But I'll take Datsyuk over both in a heartbeat.
    Is that the Datsyuk with a whopping 1 goal this playoff season?
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    No, it's the Datsyuk that is still in the playoffs, and on his way to his third cup in 7 years...
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    I'll take Ovechkin over Crybaby, er, Crosby any day. But I'll take Datsyuk over both in a heartbeat.
    Datsyuk is barely a point-per-game player in his career, though his work on the PK and defensively is great. This being said, he is in no way a franchise-player [see for comparison: Sedin twins]. I would take Crosby, OV, Malkin, Iginla, Nash, Heatley, Spezza, Kovalchuk, Toews, and Thornton over Datsyuk for forwards; Luongo, Brodeur, Mason, Fleury, Ward, Thomas and Nabokov over Datsyuk for goalies, and; Keith, Neidermayer, Pronger, and Lidstrom for defenseman.

    He is a defensive player, but his offense is non-existent, and that [to me] precludes him from any rational discussion involving the top five players in the league. If you offered any sane GM the choice between Datsyuk and any of those players, probably 90% would choose the other player over Datsyuk.

    Actually, TSN [Canadian version of ESPN] recently did a GM poll about "franchise players": out of the 28 that responded, 58% chose Crosby, with the next highest point-getter being OV at 16% with Luongo at 8% [he had more first place votes than OV, though]. It went on a 5-3-1 point system. Datsyuk was way down there!
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    No, it's the Datsyuk that is still in the playoffs, and on his way to his third cup in 7 years...
    Aside from last year, he wasn't a huge reason for their success and was often a reason for their early exits. He had 6 points in '01-'02, when they won the cup and Hasek stole the show that year, even though Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe.
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    OK, maybe Datsyuk isn't the "franchise player" so to speak, but I still believe him to be the most "complete" player in the NHL. Any part of the ice, any situation, the guy is gold.

    You both do have valid points, but I'll stick to my choice.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    OK, maybe Datsyuk isn't the "franchise player" so to speak, but I still believe him to be the most "complete" player in the NHL. Any part of the ice, any situation, the guy is gold.

    You both do have valid points, but I'll stick to my choice.
    I would definitely say he is the best defensive-forward in the NHL bar-none! For me, though, he is not dynamic and/or prolific enough to be considered the complete player; that distinction goes to Crosby, in my eyes.

    But, at least we can agree to disagree respectfully.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I would definitely say he is the best defensive-forward in the NHL bar-none! For me, though, he is not dynamic and/or prolific enough to be considered the complete player; that distinction goes to Crosby, in my eyes.

    But, at least we can agree to disagree respectfully.
    I'd definitely take him on my team because he plays both ends, doesn't bitch about anything, and has the talent to take over a game. He doesn't always produce in the playoffs, but he always makes the other line's job very difficult. I'd definitely take Henrik over Datsyuk, though.
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    I'll take both! Er... wait, my team *has* both. Lucky me
    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I'd definitely take Henrik over Datsyuk, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    I'll take both! Er... wait, my team *has* both. Lucky me
    I'm obligated to hate you now since you're a Wings fan...
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    No problem, man. I understand

    But hey... I'm in Detroit. At least I have SOMETHING good, ya know?

    And your team is... the Stars?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    No problem, man. I understand

    But hey... I'm in Detroit. At least I have SOMETHING good, ya know?

    And your team is... the Stars?
    Hell, no. I hate them, too. I am an Avs fan, hence my man-love for Foppa. It's going to a be a long 3 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I am an Avs fan
    Avs, eh? Good deal. Lots of good games between us! I miss the old *****ry.



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    Hockey hasn't been the same for me since St Patrick retired and I really miss those days. Sadly, only a handful of people n both teams still play (Sakic, Foote, Osgood, Lidstrom, and most of the Grind Line)
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    Very true. I always hope for some sort of new *****ry with Detroit and whoever... but nothing seems to stick. Chicago is looking pretty upset right now, and they're really young, so hopefully that can brew up... but nothing else has been like Wings-Avs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    Very true. I always hope for some sort of new *****ry with Detroit and whoever... but nothing seems to stick. Chicago is looking pretty upset right now, and they're really young, so hopefully that can brew up... but nothing else has been like Wings-Avs.
    All it takes is one incident to cause a nasty *****ry. That being said, neither team has the real snarl to have anything close.
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    One incident... or maybe one more brutal check to Marty Havlat

    I'm surprised the guy can skate at this point (well, assuming he actually plays the next game).
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    One incident... or maybe one more brutal check to Marty Havlat

    I'm surprised the guy can skate at this point (well, assuming he actually plays the next game).
    It appears as if my team [Pens] and your team [Wings] are on a collision course for the first Finals rematch since '84 [IIRC]. Except, obviously, with a drastically different result!
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    It will be a good series, Mullet. And it's nice to see a rematch in the cup finals.

    I think it's going to be a better series than last season, but I believe in my team, and I'm looking forward to us being the first team to repeat as Stanley Cup Champions since... well... the Red Wings
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    It will be a good series, Mullet. And it's nice to see a rematch in the cup finals.

    I think it's going to be a better series than last season, but I believe in my team, and I'm looking forward to us being the first team to repeat as Stanley Cup Champions since... well... the Red Wings
    Nice, hah! I was waiting to see how you'd respond to that!

    I feel it depends primarily on the play of our back-end - in other words, if they cannot navigate past the suffocating Detroit neutral-zone trap, and enter the O-Zone, then we will have no success. To that end, the health of Gonchar will play a large part here, as Letang has not shown success in navigating between the blues.

    This being said, Detroit simply cannot contain Crosby and Malkin. It is nearly impossible to sustain momentum when the best player in the world is on one shift, and an individual not too far behind is on the very next shift: the fact that Malkin is playing his best hockey at a time when he disappeared last year is also indicative of a Pens win!

    Finally, history is on our side: the last two teams to rematch in the Cup Final were the Islanders and the Oilers, with a young Oilers team losing the first year only to dismantle the Islanders the next year!
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    I was reading an blog by Buccigross over at ESPN and it got me thinking about this question: if the Wings repeat, is Osgood a HoFer?

    Objectively, when you look at the numbers, it's a push (he'll have over 400 wins and a 2.47 GAA), but he would have 4 cups.

    Personally, I say not at all because I don't think of him when I am asked the elite goalies of the past 15 years.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    I was reading an blog by Buccigross over at ESPN and it got me thinking about this question: if the Wings repeat, is Osgood a HoFer?

    Objectively, when you look at the numbers, it's a push (he'll have over 400 wins and a 2.47 GAA), but he would have 4 cups.

    Personally, I say not at all because I don't think of him when I am asked the elite goalies of the past 15 years.
    He is quite the enigma, for precisely the sentiment contained in your last sentiment. The fact is this: any above-average goalie could have won cups with those Detroit teams; preview their defensive statistics from their cup years to verify this! In fact, Ty Conklin, a less-than-average goalie [see: his years in Edmonton] carried Detroit to the second seed in a tough Western Conference this year!

    If you truly want to judge Osgood, take a gander at his PK statistics from this playoffs: an .889 save percentage and a phenomenal amount of goals against. Detroit wins in spite of, and not because of, Osgood.

    By the way, he is from my birthplace of Medicine Hat, a place I lived for the middle fifteen years of my life; even people there do not feel he is a good goalie! P.S., Trevor Linden was also from Medicine Hat.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    He is quite the enigma, for precisely the sentiment contained in your last sentiment. The fact is this: any above-average goalie could have won cups with those Detroit teams; preview their defensive statistics from their cup years to verify this! In fact, Ty Conklin, a less-than-average goalie [see: his years in Edmonton] carried Detroit to the second seed in a tough Western Conference this year!

    If you truly want to judge Osgood, take a gander at his PK statistics from this playoffs: an .889 save percentage and a phenomenal amount of goals against. Detroit wins in spite of, and not because of, Osgood.

    By the way, he is from my birthplace of Medicine Hat, a place I lived for the middle fifteen years of my life; even people there do not feel he is a good goalie! P.S., Trevor Linden was also from Medicine Hat.
    His overall playoff GAA is 2.11. He was amazing last year in the playoffs and, IMO, should have won the Conn Smythe.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    His overall playoff GAA is 2.11. He was amazing last year in the playoffs and, IMO, should have won the Conn Smythe.
    Yes, but GAA is not an individual stat, it is a team statistic: it depends upon the defensive play of an entire team, which was more or less the thrust of my argument above.

    The point about the PK was to illuminate that, individually, he is a slightly above-average goalie. While 5-on-5 GAA is in fact a team statistic, short-handed save percentage and GAA is far more indicative of an individual goalie's play; in that regard, Osgood has faired poorly this year and last!

    To say he was amazing last year, in my opinion, is a slight stretch as well.
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    Detroit's penalty-kill is plodding at a meager 71% this year, with a goal allowed in twelve consecutive games at one point.
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    I will concede that Detroit's defense this year has been awful - penalty kill included.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    I will concede that Detroit's defense this year has been awful - penalty kill included.
    5-on-5 they have been fine, but the penalty kill: whoa!

    Seriously though, their PK has been simply atrocious this playoff season; with Pittsburgh clicking at over 30% [IIRC] over the 'Canes/Pens series, D-Town could be in trouble.
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    We shall see, Mullet. We shall see. First we just need both of our teams to close things out
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    We shall see, Mullet. We shall see. First we just need both of our teams to close things out
    You are certainly right, Tribal; I have probably jinxed us both, hah!

    Friendly wager if our teams make it to the cup, though? An NP gift certificate, perhaps?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    You are certainly right, Tribal; I have probably jinxed us both, hah!
    A Canes vs Hawks series just doesn't seem as entertaining

    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Friendly wager if our teams make it to the cup, though? An NP gift certificate, perhaps?
    Absolutely! I am one broke mo-fo right now, so how about the $25 one? http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...ficate-25.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    A Canes vs Hawks series just doesn't seem as entertaining



    Absolutely! I am one broke mo-fo right now, so how about the $25 one? http://www.nutraplanet.com/product/n...ficate-25.html
    Sounds good!
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    Deal!

    I sent you a PM btw (after I saw that your sig said use email for questions, of course).
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    And the Penguins sweep (the conference finals).
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    Are you shining up that NP gift certificate for me yet, Mullet?
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    Are you shining up that NP gift certificate for me yet, Mullet?
    Not quite yet, tribal. It has been a home series thus far, so I wouldn't get your hopes up for a win on Tuesday.
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    It had indeed. I'll openly admit Detroit has looked sub-par (especially defensively) while in Pitts. I think getting Datsyuk back was a huge boost. While I would rather us parade the cup around home ice, I'll take a game 6 win as well. But I wouldn't doubt this going 7 games (as a lot of series have in this years playoffs).
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    Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    It had indeed. I'll openly admit Detroit has looked sub-par (especially defensively) while in Pitts. I think getting Datsyuk back was a huge boost. While I would rather us parade the cup around home ice, I'll take a game 6 win as well. But I wouldn't doubt this going 7 games (as a lot of series have in this years playoffs).
    I feel a game seven is likely, given the way each team has dominated in their buildings. Obviously, this means that in order to win the Cup Pittsburgh needs to do something it has only done once in these past two Cup Finals: win a game in Detroit.
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