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Another Hockey Thread...Ovechkin v Crosby

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  1. Quote Originally Posted by AllMaxBrian View Post
    After seeing this series, I would be very interested to see what Ovechkin would be able to accomplish if he had the support that Crosby has.
    I think that is a little bit of stretch considering over an 82 game season, they finished 3rd in the eastern conference. Washington is a very solid team who needs to mature a little with some post-season experience. You have to remember Varlamov is what 21 years old?


  2. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I can certainly see what you are driving at. Pavel was the definition of "flash in the pan", though: only nine seasons, and only three were decent. He is just barely a point-per-game player. In fairness to him, though, his constitution being glass contributed significantly to this [all three of his 50+ goal seasons came in his three most-played seasons].

    OV has a lot of Mike Bossy in him as well.
    And if I remember correctly, they were all contract seasons.....
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  3. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post

    My sentiment that Crosby is better notwithstanding, I think OV will be an elite player in the league with a considerable amount of longevity. He has only missed a total of four games in four years, pretty damn incredible.
    Absolutely OV will be an elite player out there, he is phenomanal no doubt. However I have concerns with his longevity, given his playing style.

  4. Quote Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
    And if I remember correctly, they were all contract seasons.....
    Not quite.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  5. My Bad I thought Bure seemed to have his best seasons leading into contract negotiations.

    Just trying to recollect that time.
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  6. Quote Originally Posted by IainDaniel View Post
    My Bad I thought Bure seemed to have his best seasons leading into contract negotiations.

    Just trying to recollect that time.
    He would string together fantastic seasons. His issue was never motivation, but health. I was a huge Pavel Bure fan back in the day, but his career was horribly dogged by knee problems.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  7. Yeah he missed a couple of years due to knee reconstruction.

    Then held out for half a season when he didn't want to play with Vancouver anymore.

  8. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    He would string together fantastic seasons. His issue was never motivation, but health. I was a huge Pavel Bure fan back in the day, but his career was horribly dogged by knee problems.
    In fairness, one of his best seasons in Van., was prior to a contract year, which ultimately led to his departure from the Canucks. I certainly agree injuries were an issue with Pavel, but; I feel his lack of motivation was equally so. Unfortunate as it may be, that is an issue which has plagued a great many Russian snipers. (OV is definitely breaking the mould here, IMO.)

  9. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    In fairness, one of his best seasons in Van., was prior to a contract year, which ultimately led to his departure from the Canucks. I certainly agree injuries were an issue with Pavel, but; I feel his lack of motivation was equally so. Unfortunate as it may be, that is an issue which has plagued a great many Russian snipers. (OV is definitely breaking the mould here, IMO.)
    Fedorov and Mogilny are the only Russian-born players close to 500 goals. There really isn't a large enough sample of Russian-born players in the NHL, yet, especially with the tumultuous transfer agreement between the NHL and the Russian leagues. I'll say that Kovalchuk plays very hard in obscurity in Atlanta. I would love to see him added to a contender (e.g. Vancouver, Pittsburgh, SJ).
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  10. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Fedorov and Mogilny are the only Russian-born players close to 500 goals. There really isn't a large enough sample of Russian-born players in the NHL, yet, especially with the tumultuous transfer agreement between the NHL and the Russian leagues. I'll say that Kovalchuk plays very hard in obscurity in Atlanta. I would love to see him added to a contender (e.g. Vancouver, Pittsburgh, SJ).
    True, Russian players comprise about 3.5% of the NHL, however; the slavic countries which comprise the former U.S.S.R., and which by and large import their playing styles and philosophy from the Russian/Soviet style, comprise about 15% [these taken from NHL.com 2008].

    Kovalchuk can play hard, but he is notorious for flailing on back-checks, needlessly avoiding the body when it matters, and for being horribly streaky. IMO, he plays more or less when he wants to. (Living in Canada, we see a lot of hockey coverage from each and every team, so no team is truly obscure.) Mogilny, Fedorov [at times in his career], Kovalev, the Bure brothers, Kovalchuk and so on are [unfortunately] notorious for playing merely when it suits them. Albeit a Czech, Jagr would be the primary example of this playing "style".

  11. Kovalev is about as streaky of a player as there is. His talent should dominate the league, but it's not there in the head. That is a very common trait of Soviet-born players.

    As far as Kovalchuk, playing in a horrible hockey town such as Atlanta has to drain you at some point plus Ovie really took a lot of his thunder. It's really sad because he's averaged over 42 goals per year for his career playing with a horrible cast for most of his career (Heatley flourished while in Ottawa with Spezza and Hossa is streaky).
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  12. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Kovalev is about as streaky of a player as there is. His talent should dominate the league, but it's not there in the head. That is a very common trait of Soviet-born players.

    As far as Kovalchuk, playing in a horrible hockey town such as Atlanta has to drain you at some point plus Ovie really took a lot of his thunder. It's really sad because he's averaged over 42 goals per year for his career playing with a horrible cast for most of his career (Heatley flourished while in Ottawa with Spezza and Hossa is streaky).
    I know, he is ridiculous! I feel the issue is he will command too much to go to a viable team with alternate threats. Unless he goes to an organization which carefully wheels around the cap like Detroit, and/or goes the Hossa route and takes considerably less.

    To be fair, Bure and Jagr were some of my perennially favorite players growing up. it is just unfortunate that these high-profile European snipers have come to characterize themselves as lacking passion and/or dedication. IMO, Jarmoir Jagr may very well be the most talented player to ever play the game, and should own countless records! Unfortunately, that is not necessarily the case.

  13. Even though im a huge PENS fan I would have to say Ovechkin is probally a little better. Hes bigger stronger faster and has a bad ass shot. But my boy Malkin has been playing pretty damn good these last couple games as well dont forget about him.

  14. Quote Originally Posted by wastchak View Post
    Even though im a huge PENS fan I would have to say Ovechkin is probally a little better. Hes bigger stronger faster and has a bad ass shot. But my boy Malkin has been playing pretty damn good these last couple games as well dont forget about him.
    Malkin has definitely been unconscious lately. I feel Crosby is better in literally every aspect of the game aside from open-ice hitting and snap/slap-shots, though. He certainly outshone OV in their head-to-head meeting.

  15. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Malkin has definitely been unconscious lately. I feel Crosby is better in literally every aspect of the game aside from open-ice hitting and snap/slap-shots, though. He certainly outshone OV in their head-to-head meeting.
    I agree. There is more to the Game of hockey then just being able to hit and shoot.

  16. Malkin also goes through stretches where he disappears. I remember watching the first couple of game vs Washington and it was as though he wasn't even playing. I had to really look for him to even notice he wasn't a scratch.

    OT, but, as far as talent taken away by injuries is concerned, there has been few losses worse than Peter Mattias Forsberg. Watching him play was something I'll never forget and when he was healthy, he was always dominant. I think it was the '99 and '02 playoffs where he led the league in points even though the Avs where eliminated in the West Finals.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  17. Quote Originally Posted by Rodja View Post
    Malkin also goes through stretches where he disappears. I remember watching the first couple of game vs Washington and it was as though he wasn't even playing. I had to really look for him to even notice he wasn't a scratch.
    Definitely agree. This comes back to the patent streakiness in Russian-born players I spoke about earlier. Ethnocentrism aside, Russian-born players are notoriously and undeniably streaky!

    OT, but, as far as talent taken away by injuries is concerned, there has been few losses worse than Peter Mattias Forsberg. Watching him play was something I'll never forget and when he was healthy, he was always dominant. I think it was the '99 and '02 playoffs where he led the league in points even though the Avs where eliminated in the West Finals.
    Agree. He was ridiculous.

  18. I'll take Ovechkin over Crybaby, er, Crosby any day. But I'll take Datsyuk over both in a heartbeat.

  19. Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    I'll take Ovechkin over Crybaby, er, Crosby any day. But I'll take Datsyuk over both in a heartbeat.
    Is that the Datsyuk with a whopping 1 goal this playoff season?
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  20. No, it's the Datsyuk that is still in the playoffs, and on his way to his third cup in 7 years...

  21. Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    I'll take Ovechkin over Crybaby, er, Crosby any day. But I'll take Datsyuk over both in a heartbeat.
    Datsyuk is barely a point-per-game player in his career, though his work on the PK and defensively is great. This being said, he is in no way a franchise-player [see for comparison: Sedin twins]. I would take Crosby, OV, Malkin, Iginla, Nash, Heatley, Spezza, Kovalchuk, Toews, and Thornton over Datsyuk for forwards; Luongo, Brodeur, Mason, Fleury, Ward, Thomas and Nabokov over Datsyuk for goalies, and; Keith, Neidermayer, Pronger, and Lidstrom for defenseman.

    He is a defensive player, but his offense is non-existent, and that [to me] precludes him from any rational discussion involving the top five players in the league. If you offered any sane GM the choice between Datsyuk and any of those players, probably 90% would choose the other player over Datsyuk.

    Actually, TSN [Canadian version of ESPN] recently did a GM poll about "franchise players": out of the 28 that responded, 58% chose Crosby, with the next highest point-getter being OV at 16% with Luongo at 8% [he had more first place votes than OV, though]. It went on a 5-3-1 point system. Datsyuk was way down there!

  22. Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    No, it's the Datsyuk that is still in the playoffs, and on his way to his third cup in 7 years...
    Aside from last year, he wasn't a huge reason for their success and was often a reason for their early exits. He had 6 points in '01-'02, when they won the cup and Hasek stole the show that year, even though Lidstrom won the Conn Smythe.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys


  23. OK, maybe Datsyuk isn't the "franchise player" so to speak, but I still believe him to be the most "complete" player in the NHL. Any part of the ice, any situation, the guy is gold.

    You both do have valid points, but I'll stick to my choice.

  24. Quote Originally Posted by tribaltek View Post
    OK, maybe Datsyuk isn't the "franchise player" so to speak, but I still believe him to be the most "complete" player in the NHL. Any part of the ice, any situation, the guy is gold.

    You both do have valid points, but I'll stick to my choice.
    I would definitely say he is the best defensive-forward in the NHL bar-none! For me, though, he is not dynamic and/or prolific enough to be considered the complete player; that distinction goes to Crosby, in my eyes.

    But, at least we can agree to disagree respectfully.

  25. Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I would definitely say he is the best defensive-forward in the NHL bar-none! For me, though, he is not dynamic and/or prolific enough to be considered the complete player; that distinction goes to Crosby, in my eyes.

    But, at least we can agree to disagree respectfully.
    I'd definitely take him on my team because he plays both ends, doesn't bitch about anything, and has the talent to take over a game. He doesn't always produce in the playoffs, but he always makes the other line's job very difficult. I'd definitely take Henrik over Datsyuk, though.
    M.Ed. Ex Phys

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