[Wanderlei]

So now it's okay to take NOxidant preworkout? My reasoning, however flawed it may be, was that it would prevent NO from forming more potent pro-oxidants which would reduce ROS induced damage. Perhaps wrongly, I assumed that the increased pump was an indication that there was less conversion of NO to peroxynitrite or other oxidants. But then I've been told that ROS induced damage is necessary to muscle growth so I'm actually inhibiting my gains by taking it pre. This is all so confusing.

[dsade]

Originally Posted by Wanderlei

So now it's okay to take NOxidant preworkout? My reasoning, however flawed it may be, was that it would prevent NO from forming more potent pro-oxidants which would reduce ROS induced damage. Perhaps wrongly, I assumed that the increased pump was an indication that there was less conversion of NO to peroxynitrite or other oxidants. But then I've been told that ROS induced damage is necessary to muscle growth so I'm actually inhibiting my gains by taking it pre. This is all so confusing.

We're honing in on the absolute best recommendation and I am currently experimenting with a LOWER DOSE preworkout.

There is evidence of a sweet spot equilibrium that will prevent excessive formation, while still allowing maximum messenger signaling to trigger growth.

[Trauma1]

Originally Posted by Wanderlei

So now it's okay to take NOxidant preworkout? My reasoning, however flawed it may be, was that it would prevent NO from forming more potent pro-oxidants which would reduce ROS induced damage. Perhaps wrongly, I assumed that the increased pump was an indication that there was less conversion of NO to peroxynitrite or other oxidants. But then I've been told that ROS induced damage is necessary to muscle growth so I'm actually inhibiting my gains by taking it pre. This is all so confusing.

We've been doing a ton of research on this as of late. It would seem that the best time to take this product is actually before bed at night. You do want a degree of ROS/RNS induced damage after a workout to trigger new muscle growth.

It would seem in the research that i've done that allowing for this to happen and then halting free radicals in their tracks before their damage effects outweigh the benefits. The majority of information and evidence i've seen supports this approach.

As far as taking it pre-workout, more research needs to be done. I would think that a milder dose early on in the day could help keep ROS/NRS in check and actually produce better workout results/muscle damage as a result. (See one of the abstracts above about lowered ROS/RNS and increased muscle contraction) This would allow for a greater amount of muscle damage and subsequent free radical formation to enhance the fact. Following that up with a dose a night would seem to be the last piece of the enhanced anabolic puzzle.

More research to be done, but the theory holds a lot of promise in my mind.

[Trauma1]

Nitric Oxide Metabolism

[dsade]

Originally Posted by Trauma1

Nitric Oxide Metabolism

That's a good chart...interesting to note is NO's reaction with iron to exert effects.

I wonder how many people with ED have their iron levels checked?

[Trauma1]

NEJM -- Nitric Oxide and Cyclic GMP in Cell Signaling and Drug Development


This is a very good read:

Free radicals and antioxidants in normal physiolog...[Int J Biochem Cell Biol. 2007] - PubMed Result

[Trauma1]

Originally Posted by dsade

That's a good chart...interesting to note is NO's reaction with iron to exert effects.

I wonder how many people with ED have their iron levels checked?

I thought the same thing. It would seem to be a big factor in enhanced effect.

[Trauma1]

More very good reads:

Free radicals in the physiological control of cell...[Physiol Rev. 2002] - PubMed Result

Reactive oxygen species and regulation of gene exp...[Biochemistry (Mosc). 2002] - PubMed Result

[Redox-dependent regulation of gene expression ind...[Mol Biol (Mosk). 2004 Jan-Feb] - PubMed Result

[Trauma1]

For all those people that don't understand how Nitric Oxide is a cell signaling molecule, here you go:

http://www.ias.ac.in/currsci/nov251998/articles10.htm

[Good Shepherd]

As far as taking it pre-workout, more research needs to be done. I would think that a milder dose early on in the day could help keep ROS/NRS in check and actually produce better workout results/muscle damage as a result. (See one of the abstracts above about lowered ROS/RNS and increased muscle contraction) This would allow for a greater amount of muscle damage and subsequent free radical formation to enhance the fact. Following that up with a dose a night would seem to be the last piece of the enhanced anabolic puzzle.

This pre bed dose is a very good idea. In fact the smaller dose early in the day will support the pre bed dose. I think you can look at dosing this type of product like maintaing a postive nitrogen balance. Steady doses of protein throughout the day will work much better then haphazard meals and/or a few big protein doses.
This type of product can be viewed in the same way. smaller steady dosing will keep the antioxidants available when they are needed. Remember, these can be stored to some extent, so what isnt stored may be excreted. Now of course there will be ideal times to take this. Prebed, post work out etc. It all depends on circumstance.
It seems that people get caught up to much in semantics, especially w/ supplements. People asking about the science of cell expression and nitric oxide production and get confused about it are often the ones that to just need to follow the directions on the label and then see what works best for them.
In reality, would you get confused about the best time to have an apple, some blueberries and an orange would be - probably not.

[Trauma1]

Originally Posted by Good Shepherd

This pre bed dose is a very good idea. In fact the smaller dose early in the day will support the pre bed dose. I think you can look at dosing this type of product like maintaing a postive nitrogen balance. Steady doses of protein throughout the day will work much better then haphazard meals and/or a few big protein doses.
This type of product can be viewed in the same way. smaller steady dosing will keep the antioxidants available when they are needed. Remember, these can be stored to some extent, so what isnt stored may be excreted. Now of course there will be ideal times to take this. Prebed, post work out etc. It all depends on circumstance.
It seems that people get caught up to much in semantics, especially w/ supplements. People asking about the science of cell expression and nitric oxide production and get confused about it are often the ones that to just need to follow the directions on the label and then see what works best for them.
In reality, would you get confused about the best time to have an apple, some blueberries and an orange would be - probably not.

Good post. I agree that the dose before bed would seem to be the most beneficial overall. The thing is, you don't want to completely destroy free radicals, you just want to keep their numbers in check.

I think that a small dose early in the day would help potentiate better results in the end myself. If this theory of slightly decreased ROS/RNS prior to workout does in fact contribute to better overall muscle contractions, this would equate to more significant muscle damage and subsequent hypertrophy in the end. However this is largely dependent on the anabolic environment remaining stable.

By taking this pre-bed dose it should shut down any extended damaging free radical effects after they've served their overall purpose of enhancing muscle growth during the post-workout setting.

We're working on figuring out the most optimal timing for desired effects. Thusfar, this would seem to be the best method of attack.

[Good Shepherd]

Originally Posted by Trauma1

Good post. I agree that the dose before bed would seem to be the most beneficial overall. They think is you don't want to completely destroy free radical, you just want to keep their numbers in check.

I think that a small dose early in the day would help potentiate better results in the end myself. If this theory of slightly decreased ROS/RNS prior to workout does in fact contribute to better overall muscle contractions, this would equate to more significant muscle damage and subsequent hypertrophy in the end. However this is largely dependent on the anabolic environment remaining stable.

By taking this pre-bed dose it should shut down any extended damaging free radical effects after they've served their overall purpose of enhancing muscle growth during the post-workout setting.

We're working on figuring out the most optimal timing for desired effects. Thusfar, this would seem to be the best method of attack.

Any thought to delivery systems for the product? like something might buffer stomach acid ....