cortisol blocker necessary for hdrol PCT?
- 01-26-2011, 04:48 PM
- 01-26-2011, 04:56 PM
hey I was about to run a hdrol cycle at 50/75/75/75/100 and for pct was going to use nolva 20/20/10/10 with AI pct assist.. should I be incorporating other products into this pct? This is my first cycle and im unsure of whether or not that covers all my bases, just want to be safe rather than sorry
01-26-2011, 06:25 PM
this is exactly what i would say if i was a rep.....
im done... im not going to argue with 5 reps from your company...
here is my point.....90% of the non hormonal supplements on these forums are crap and a total waste of money imo.... all im trying to say, is that for a cost/benefit ratio, i think ill stick with the cheaper of the two........
bashman excuse me if im a ****... sometimes thats just how i am... i apologize if i take it too far sometimes.....
01-26-2011, 06:36 PM
01-26-2011, 06:39 PM
You could feel free to respond to me. I actually welcome it after throwing in that last bit about worthless supplements, but cowardly not responding to a post i made concerning the effectiveness you eagerly doubt.
01-26-2011, 07:00 PM
i use the liverjuice because of regular milk thistles poor bioavailability. plus regular milk thistle costs about 10 bucks... i got my liverjuice for 18 dollars.... that to me is worth the price.... i also feel that liver toxicity is something people tend to look over, and i also reccomend the use of tudca or udca along with the liver juice... ( you only have one liver )
oh, the primo, is cheap, lab tested, and legit.. (if this were a different forum, i could tell you where its from and where it was tested) but thanks for your concern, ill end with this... endoamp may have its benefits, and may do a decent job at supressing cortisol, but imo, it is not worth the money as vitamin c does a great job by itself.
01-26-2011, 07:02 PM
01-26-2011, 08:35 PM
01-26-2011, 09:22 PM
01-26-2011, 10:02 PM
Vitamin C: This vitamin, mainly known for it's anti-oxidant properties, may also have some anti-cortisol effects. A study done by Stone entitled "Effects of Vitamin C on Cortisol and the Testosterone: Cortisol Ratio" showed a decrease in cortisol levels in 17 junior elite weight lifters. This study also showed that the individuals taking Vitamin C (an extra gram a day) improved their testosterone:cortisol ratio by over 20%. This type of decrease in cortisol can lead to increased muscle and connective-tissue hypertrophy and enhanced recovery from training. Since Vitamin C also decreases your chances of suffering from a cold or flu infection by 30% (14) and may aid in collagen synthesis, it would be wise to take some extra vitamin C when involved in an intense weight-training program
01-26-2011, 10:08 PM
Controlling Cortisol Levels
Here are some solid tips to help control cortisol levels:
1) Diet: Make sure you are supplying your body with all the essential nutrients you need to prevent deficiencies and for optimal function. This includes plenty of high-quality protein, complex carbohydrates, essential fatty acids, and vitamins and minerals. Try not to restrict calories continuously as some research suggests that restricting normal caloric intake by 50% can lead to a subsequent increase in cortisol levels by 38%. (10)
2) Do not overtrain: Try not to work out three or more days in a row without taking a day off. Keep workouts to under an hour at the most and train efficiently and intensely. I know this phrase has been beaten to death but LISTEN TO YOUR BODY!
Take enough rest days between workouts - If you are really sore, then wait an extra day to train until your body fully recovers from your previous workout. Remember, less may be more in this case.
4) Relax and try not to get stressed out easily: Take an evening walk with a loved one or take a nap when you get a chance.
5) Try to get at least eight hours of sleep per night: Sleep is crucial to the recovery and recuperation process.
6) Spike Insulin levels after a workout: Insulin actually interferes with cortisol and may enhance cortisol clearance from the body. Spiking insulin levels after a workout (by consuming a high-glycemic index carbohydrate) may help minimize excessive cortisol levels since cortisol levels are elevated significantly post resistance training.
Supplements that may help control increased cortisol levels secondary to intense exercise
Phosphatidylserine (PS):This phospholipid, which has been known mainly for its cognitive effects, seems to have cortisol-suppressive properties. Recent research shows that 800 mg Phosphatidylserine given in two divided oral doses helps suppress cortisol secondary to intense weight training. (11) In fact, in this same study, the individuals using PS experienced less muscle soreness as well. Earlier research by Monteleone confirms these results. By decreasing cortisol levels, the testosterone: cortisol ratio can increase possibly relating to anabolic effects. PS seems to only decrease cortisol levels when they are elevated and does not seem to decrease cortisol levels below normal. Decreasing cortisol levels or suppression of cortisol production is not desired in many instances as it may cause adverse effects such as a decrease in reaction time to wounds and healing mechanisms in the body. There are two forms of PS available: a brain cortex derivative and a soy lecithin derivative. The brain cortex PS has been used in most of the studies and shown to be effective.
Acetyl-L-carnitine: This is basically the acetylated ester of L-carnitine. This supplement may help prevent the decline in testosterone that occurs during and after an intense resistance training session. It seems to lessen the response to stress.
L-Glutamine: This is the most abundant free amino acid in muscle tissue. (12) It seems to play a very important role in protein synthesis and is very important to weight-training athletes. Some research suggests that glutamine levels may be a good indicator of overtraining or overreaching. (12) In other words, athletes who were overtrained generally had low levels of glutamine along with high levels of cortisol. One study actually showed that glutamine directly prevents the cortisol-induced degradation of muscle contractile proteins.(13) Some of its positive effects include enhancing protein synthesis; increasing GH levels, which can counteract some of the catabolic effects of cortisol; potent cell-volumizing effects, which can create an anabolic environment in muscle cells; and partially determining the rate of protein turnover in the muscle. An oral glutamine supplement can help athletes prevent some of the symptoms of overtraining. It may also enhance glycogen synthesis through an unknown mechanism. It also helps provide a source of fuel for the small intestine and may enhance anti-inflammatory function. It has been shown to boost immune function. I hope you get the point -Glutamine is a vital nutrient for weight-training athletes.
Vitamin C: This vitamin, mainly known for it's anti-oxidant properties, may also have some anti-cortisol effects. A study done by Stone entitled "Effects of Vitamin C on Cortisol and the Testosterone: Cortisol Ratio" showed a decrease in cortisol levels in 17 junior elite weight lifters. This study also showed that the individuals taking Vitamin C (an extra gram a day) improved their testosterone:cortisol ratio by over 20%. This type of decrease in cortisol can lead to increased muscle and connective-tissue hypertrophy and enhanced recovery from training. Since Vitamin C also decreases your chances of suffering from a cold or flu infection by 30% (14) and may aid in collagen synthesis, it would be wise to take some extra vitamin C when involved in an intense weight-training program.
Zinc: A mineral that is an essential cofactor in over 300 enzymatic reactions in the body including testosterone synthesis and steroid hormone production. Getting enough zinc may make the difference between making great gains and only making average gains in a weight training program.
Vitamin A: This vitamin, which is often times used for healthy skin function, may also minimize cortisol levels according to Dr. Sapse. He suggested this in an abstract he presented at the 1997 conference on cortisol and anti-cortisols. (8)
Gingko Biloba: This herb is mainly used for its excellent cognitive effects by increasing blood flow and oxygen to the brain, which can lead to greater mental focus and concentration. It may also have additional benefits of decreasing cortisol levels according to an abstract presented at the 1997 conference on cortisol and anti-cortisols. (15) The anti-stress and neuroprotective effects of ginkgo biloba in this study were due to its effect on glucocorticoid biosynthesis. The EGb 761 standardized gingko biloba extract was used in this study and many of the studies showing that it enhances cognition.
DHEA: This natural hormone of the adrenal glands that declines after the age of 30 seems to have some powerful anti-cortisol effects. Many abstracts presented at the 1997 conference on cortisol and anti-cortisols discussed DHEA's role in decreasing cortisol levels. DHEA is fat soluble so it can cross the blood-brain barrier and have some effects on cognition as well.
Androstenedione: This prohormone is a direct precursor to testosterone, which may explain its anti-cortisol effects since increases in testosterone can blunt elevated cortisol levels secondary to intense weight training. Different metabolites of androstenedione and testosterone, such as 4-androstenediol, 5-androstendiol, and nornadrostenediol, may also exert some anti-cortisol effects. However, more research needs to be done in this area to make this clear!
Androstenetriol: This steroid metabolite, which is chemically known as Delta 5-androstene-3b,7b,17b,triol, was shown in an abstract presented at the 1997 conference on cortisol and anti-cortisols to counteract the immunological effects of glucocorticoids. (16) This is an interesting compound that definitely needs to be looked at further.
This is a subject that will be studied thoroughly in the future. Studies investigating supplemental strategies against cortisol may help weight trainers get the most out of their workouts and help enhance the recovery and recuperation process. Now before you think suppressing cortisol levels can make you Hercules, remember, cortisol levels are one piece to a large and complex puzzle. It takes a combination of proper training, nutrition, and supplementation to achieve your true muscle-building potential. However, getting cortisol levels checked by your doctor and implementing strategies against cortisol may be a good idea, especially during a calorie-restrictive dieting phase. So, the next time you feel tired, sluggish, or sore for an abnormally long time in your weight-training program, and you don't know why, look into cortisol levels, and you might find the answer
there you go...your welcome
01-26-2011, 10:57 PM
01-27-2011, 12:58 AM
01-27-2011, 01:05 AM
use a serm..
you can either run an ai inverse to the serm.. like atd 4/3/2/1
or just have an ai on hand...
a natrual test booster like bulk daa (testforce)
something for cortisol... i just use vitamin c and mad food... (use endoamp if u wanna spend more money)
you should be using something for liver support during pct as well.. liver juice or tudca, NAC, SAMe...ect
you do all that then you get blood tests... just to make sure youre recovered...
01-27-2011, 01:18 AM
so should I even buy anabolic innovations pct support supp?
also, bulk daa is the same product as the tcf-1?
and your suggesting I run inhibit e 4 pills a day/3pills a day/2.. etc. along with the nolva?
01-27-2011, 02:03 AM
01-27-2011, 01:14 PM
so would nolva 20/20/10/10 with inhibit e(atd) at 4pills/3pills/2/1 along with lean xtreme and liver juice be a sufficient pct for my cycle?
01-27-2011, 01:23 PM
01-27-2011, 02:25 PM
01-27-2011, 02:30 PM
01-27-2011, 02:40 PM
[QUOTE=leet2010;2734681]Ok, minus the atd is that a sufficient pct? What should or shouldn't I incorporate?[/QUOTE
i say everything you mentioned..just dont use the inhibit-e.. just my opinion
01-27-2011, 03:24 PM
4 weeks of PCT. 4 weeks of SERM usage. I recommend Clomid or Toremifene. Nolvadex is old hat in terms of PCT usage. I also recommend a low dosing of SERMs as they can cause some adverse affects as I mentioned previously in this topic.
Weeks 1-4: 50mg of Clomid per day.
Weeks 1-4: Testosterone Replacement Stack.
Using this strategy, there is simply no way to come off PCT and have your natural testosterone levels suppressed much at all.
You can simply do clomid at 50-100mg a day instead, without using the TRS, but you won't necessarily like the side effects and recovery won't be nearly as smooth.
I hope this post helped answer your questions about PCT. Anymore, feel free to either PM me, I'll help you out in more detail.
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01-27-2011, 03:25 PM
the way I reduce cortisol levels -
4.Nutrient Phosphatidylserine 300mg daily, taken morning afternoon and evening
5.low glycemic diet
Thats how I do it and it works for me. Theres plenty of opinions out there find what works for you. And yeah I think you should work to reduce cortisol levels. not eliminate. its good for everyone. beAst of luck to ya
01-27-2011, 07:25 PM
Copied from another forum:
NAC and vitamin C has been recommended here by a bunch of people including Marc Mcdougal as a great combo for visceral fat loss , but this article says it dangerous:
"Initially, the vitamin C and NAC were given to prevent the injury, because we thought they'd have protective effects," Leeuwenburgh said. "Instead, they were damaging."
Leeuwenburgh attributes the damaging effects of the vitamin C and NAC to their reaction with iron in the body. Normally, iron is bound to proteins and enzymes and therefore can't react with vitamin C and NAC.
But when inflammation occurs -- as it does in muscular injuries and a variety of diseases such as Alzheimer's, arthritis and cardiovascular disease -- the body releases more free iron, which is highly reactive to outside elements -- in this case, vitamin C and NAC. Indeed, the researchers showed that there were increases in free iron following this type of exercise.
"Vitamin C isn't bad, and neither is NAC, but by some mechanism in this situation there were some pro-oxidant effects of supplementation," said April Childs, a graduate student in the department of exercise and sport sciences and the lead author of the study.
And although Leeuwenburgh says people who have taken vitamin C or NAC in the past shouldn't worry too much about the new finding, he recommends caution in supplementing vitamin C in doses greater than 100 mg after injuries or disease condition characterized by increases in free iron.
"People should limit their vitamin C intake until we know more," he said. "Everyone agrees that after 80 to 90 milligrams, about the recommended daily allowance, it goes out of your body since measurements show that white blood cells are saturated completely after this dose. You'd think that if it goes out of your body it isn't harmful, but maybe the high transient levels do react in a negative way. There's no benefit to taking more than the RDA, and it could actually harm you."
Furthermore, he said, "Vitamin C is believed to prevent cancer, but instead, it may be damaging. Studies performed in humans actually show that it may increase DNA damage."
Because vitamin C and NAC in the body appear to react most negatively with iron, Leeuwenburgh said, those with inflammatory diseases and those who take more than the recommended daily allowance of iron should be particularly vigilant about limiting their vitamin C and NAC intake.
"If you're taking more than the RDA of iron, you're putting yourself at risk by taking more than the RDA of vitamin C or NAC at the same time," Leeuwenburgh said. "Iron is very important in preventing anemia. So many people -- particularly women -- are supplementing, and the effects of supplementing iron and vitamin C for long periods have not been adequately studied.
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