Torem and Vision Problems

[mav6]

I read a study, and I've been trying like hell to find it again, but in the study they found that something like 30% of the patients on torem developed cataracts. Now, I realize that these were all women being treated for breast cancer, not 30 year old men recovering from AAS cycles....

So, I just thought I'd ask the question, has anyone heard of or experienced themselves any vision problems with torem?

I know clomid's vision problems are well known, but I haven't seen much talk about torem causing vision issues.

Thanks guys!

 

[bashman]

I believe the cancer patients are taking a lot higher doses than those recovering PCT. Same for clomid. I believe the sides where blown out of proportion by some reps (no one on this forum) who were trying to push their OTC PCT stuff on people.

 

[BrockR]

Haven't seen a single thing about vision sides on torem before, just clomid. I'm curious about this.

 

[mav6]

Yeah, I know that the cancer patients are taking high doses for a long period of time. It's just that I already have a cataract from corticosteroids, so I'm a little hesitant to start a SERM that could potentially cause cataracts as well.

Does anyone understand why SERMs cause cataracts? Is there something you could take to counter act that? Like how some steroids can cause hair loss, but there are measures you can take to prevent it.

 

[duke66]

It's not the torem you should be concerned about.Steroids period can cause cataracts. In younger people the three causes for cataracts are diabetes, uv light, and steroids; both anabolic and corticosteroids. So if you're worried bear that in mind.

 

[mav6]

It's not the torem you should be concerned about.Steroids period can cause cataracts. In younger people the three causes for cataracts are diabetes, uv light, and steroids; both anabolic and corticosteroids. So if you're worried bear that in mind.

Excellent point. Yeah, I know all about corticosteroids causing cataracts... that's what mine are from.... I didn't mean to sound like I'm totally focused on cataracts, I'm actually trying to consider all vision problems such as floaters, inability to focus, color vision, etc. I know SARMS will turn your vision yellow, but I was just trying to understand what are the possibilities with SERMs, and more importantly, is there a way to prevent them?

 

[ryansm]

Nope no issue for me, and I have used Torem often

 

[duke66]

I know all about the cataract stuff as well. Just went thu the surgeries in both eyes. Nothing wrong with focusing on it; your vision is a big deal. As for the visual problems with serms and sarm I really couldn't say. Without being more familiar with the pharmacokinetics of the drugs it would all be guess work. I also don't think there is much one could do to prevent these problems except using the minimal therapeutic dose to get the job done. That's difficult when it comes to PCT. It's not like taking some hawthorne or celery seed for hypertension while on. The good thing though does seem to be that the visual disturbances related to serms do seem to be transient and dissipate with cessation of the drug.

 

[ASFh32]

Ocular side-effects in breast cancer patients treated with tamoxifen and toremifene: a randomized follow-up study
M. Parkkari1,*, A-M. Paakkala1, L. Salminen1, K. Holli2,3, on behalf of the Finnish Breast Cancer Group (FBCG) 1
Article first published online: 26 SEP 2003
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0420.2003.00116.x/full

In the present study, the proportion of new cataracts in initially cataract-free patients was 5/21 (23.8%) for tamoxifen and 5/23 (21.7%) for toremifene, giving annual rates of cataract of 6.8% and 6.2% in the respective groups. These figures are similar to those reported by Klein et al. (2002) for healthy white women of the same age in the USA.

In conclusion, our prospective randomized 3.5-year follow-up study involving 60 patients revealed no significant ocular side-effects in breast cancer patients treated with tamoxifen or toremifene. However, it showed that in careful ophthalmological examination ocular findings are common among older women.

 

[mav6]

Ocular side-effects in breast cancer patients treated with tamoxifen and toremifene: a randomized follow-up study
M. Parkkari1,*, A-M. Paakkala1, L. Salminen1, K. Holli2,3, on behalf of the Finnish Breast Cancer Group (FBCG) 1
Article first published online: 26 SEP 2003
onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1034/j.1600-0420.2003.00116.x/full

In the present study, the proportion of new cataracts in initially cataract-free patients was 5/21 (23.8%) for tamoxifen and 5/23 (21.7%) for toremifene, giving annual rates of cataract of 6.8% and 6.2% in the respective groups. These figures are similar to those reported by Klein et al. (2002) for healthy white women of the same age in the USA.

In conclusion, our prospective randomized 3.5-year follow-up study involving 60 patients revealed no significant ocular side-effects in breast cancer patients treated with tamoxifen or toremifene. However, it showed that in careful ophthalmological examination ocular findings are common among older women.

Thanks, I came across a similar study using clomid and toremifene where I think they posted the incidence of cataracts around 30%. I realize that 20% isn't statistically significant, but you have to admit, being that normally the rate would only be 6% and now it's over 20%, there's definitely an increased risk.

 

[ASFh32]

Thanks, I came across a similar study using clomid and toremifene where I think they posted the incidence of cataracts around 30%. I realize that 20% isn't statistically significant, but you have to admit, being that normally the rate would only be 6% and now it's over 20%, there's definitely an increased risk.

No, man, you gotta read it closer. There's NO increased risk. The 22-24% increase was over 3.5 years. That means, over a 1 year period, it averages to 6% per year, which is the normal rate for old women to get cataracts.

"giving annual rates of cataract of 6.8% and 6.2% in the respective groups. These figures are similar to those reported by Klein et al. (2002) for healthy white women of the same age in the USA."


The study concludes that there is definitely NOT an increased risk.

 

[BrockR]

No, man, you gotta read it closer. There's NO increased risk. The 22-24% increase was over 3.5 years. That means, over a 1 year period, it averages to 6% per year, which is the normal rate for old women to get cataracts.

"giving annual rates of cataract of 6.8% and 6.2% in the respective groups. These figures are similar to those reported by Klein et al. (2002) for healthy white women of the same age in the USA."


The study concludes that there is definitely NOT an increased risk.

Good catch....I looked right past that!

 

[duke66]

That's one study of 60 patients; of which all were women. Not enough evidence there to reach a conclusion for our purposes.

 

[mav6]

No, man, you gotta read it closer. There's NO increased risk. The 22-24% increase was over 3.5 years. That means, over a 1 year period, it averages to 6% per year, which is the normal rate for old women to get cataracts.

"giving annual rates of cataract of 6.8% and 6.2% in the respective groups. These figures are similar to those reported by Klein et al. (2002) for healthy white women of the same age in the USA."


The study concludes that there is definitely NOT an increased risk.

Ah! Got it! I completely misread that and glanced over the total length of the study. So, 3.5 years was the total study with a 6.8 or 6.2 "ANNUAL" rate. I understand now.

Still, it is a study on women... so, no guaranteed conclusions, but it does make me feel better. I would hope that healthy men taking a SERM for a short period of time would avoid the sides then.

 

[ASFh32]

That's one study of 60 patients; of which all were women. Not enough evidence there to reach a conclusion for our purposes.

I contend that you must prove normal doses of nolva over 4 weeks CAUSES cataracts and vision problems, rather than requiring everyone else to prove it DOESN'T...


Generally, positive assertions of causation require proof, rather than being assumed true until disproved.

 

[duke66]

In normal non-medical situations your assertion is accurate, however in medicine one study of a small sample (60) is not enough to base any final conclusion on. I am not saying there is a problem with the study only that to base one's decisions on one small study may not be the wisest thing to do and should be viewed with caution. Also bear in mind almost nobody on the forum is just doing one cycle, but many. Add the effects of AAS, which can cause cataracts and said serm and the cumulative chances increase quite a bit.

 

[ASFh32]

Go ahead and post some studies that say normal doses of nolvadex or torem cause vision problems...

 

[ASFh32]

If you're THAT worried, you probably shouldn't be takin' roids either... cause they got potential to cause just as many or worse problems. I always find that humorous with the PP crowd. omgzers nolva might cause cataracts in old women who take it at extreme experimental doses, i better just take an OTC ptc for my sdrol trenz gains!