I just wanna know...

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    I just wanna know...


    Why the guys here that are "Democrats" feel good about being one. I just can't fathom supporting even more taxing and bigger government.

    Why the hell would you support that? Anyone who votes for Hillary or Obama is doing just that. What's the rationale?

    I don't want to hear an excuse of how they aren't for bigger gov. and raising taxes, bc you know damn well they are.

    Just wondering....

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    I think that the ideology behind liberalism has derived itself from the delusional thought of a "perfect" world. In theory the ideas are good.

    Free Health Care
    Free Food
    Free Housing

    Next they will be demanding that it is their "right" to own a car. There is no end to the madness.

    The idea that we as a country will reach a state that allows one not to worry about life's mishaps and trials is very appealing. Many young people do not know it but the goal of the liberals is to eliminate money. They just follow along and it spreads.

    The problem with this mind f*ck of an idea (liberalism) is that humans cannot achieve a coexistence were money is not an issue. Corruption and greed will take over.

    So yeah I would like to here why Democrats support what they do. (in there own words, not mine. lol)

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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    Why the guys here that are "Democrats" feel good about being one. I just can't fathom supporting even more taxing and bigger government.

    Why the hell would you support that? Anyone who votes for Hillary or Obama is doing just that. What's the rationale?

    I don't want to hear an excuse of how they aren't for bigger gov. and raising taxes, bc you know damn well they are.

    Just wondering....


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    I don't think all Democrats are liberal in the sense of the word as we know it today. I think many Democrats do hold liberal values as well as conservative values. To tell you the truth, I believe the majority of people in this country are towards the middle with no extremes. It's only the extremists that get the attention though.

    The reason young people follow the ideology of today's liberalism (polar opposite of classic liberalism pre-1970) is because it's indoctrinated in their heads from all of the leftist universities in this country. When you have professors that spend the majority of their life in a laboratory and/or classroom working with theories and never real-world experience, of course they're going to be searching for the most ideal path to goodness in our society.

    I would love free healthcare, free education, etc., but at the expense of higher taxes, bigger government, and more worthless government bureaucracies? Of course not. We make do with what we've got, and it seems every year, the government just keeps expanding it's reach and control over all of us.

    It's unfortunate we don't have a really good candidate running for President this year, because our country really needs one right now. Mitt Romney should have been the Republican nominee, but the dumbasses in this country couldn't see past his religion.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM07 View Post
    I don't think all Democrats are liberal in the sense of the word as we know it today. I think many Democrats do hold liberal values as well as conservative values. To tell you the truth, I believe the majority of people in this country are towards the middle with no extremes. It's only the extremists that get the attention though.

    The reason young people follow the ideology of today's liberalism (polar opposite of classic liberalism pre-1970) is because it's indoctrinated in their heads from all of the leftist universities in this country. When you have professors that spend the majority of their life in a laboratory and/or classroom working with theories and never real-world experience, of course they're going to be searching for the most ideal path to goodness in our society.

    I would love free healthcare, free education, etc., but at the expense of higher taxes, bigger government, and more worthless government bureaucracies? Of course not. We make do with what we've got, and it seems every year, the government just keeps expanding it's reach and control over all of us.

    It's unfortunate we don't have a really good candidate running for President this year, because our country really needs one right now. Mitt Romney should have been the Republican nominee, but the dumbasses in this country couldn't see past his religion.
    See, I personally didn't see how in the world anyone looked past Ron Paul. He bar none should have been our next commander in chief. He had no extreme to the right or left, though he claimed republican. We was the best candidate for our economy. Though there are things I didnt agree with on him, such as in the war, but overall his ideals were rock solid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by AM07 View Post
    I would love free healthcare, free education, etc., but at the expense of higher taxes, bigger government, and more worthless government bureaucracies? Of course not. We make do with what we've got, and it seems every year, the government just keeps expanding it's reach and control over all of us.
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf

    That's a misguided concept; as an American citizen, you are already paying double (approximately) what I am as a Canadian citizen for Health Care. This figure is both public and private spending, and your country spends more than mine does in GDP percentage points. You're already paying more than you think - much more. I think what you want is a more effective system, not less taxes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf

    That's a misguided concept; as an American citizen, you are already paying double (approximately) what I am as a Canadian citizen for Health Care. This figure is both public and private spending, and your country spends more than mine does in GDP percentage points. You're already paying more than you think - much more. I think what you want is a more effective system, not less taxes.
    Yes, we pay more for health care. The reason being is Health Care is a business in the US, and the most prominent doctors on this globe come here for just that. Not to be paid an almost worthless salary in comparison to thier skills. So personally I dont want health care standardized, because of this exact reason.

    I do agree with you on the more effective system. Which is why I did bring up Ron Paul. His views were all about improving the economic system of the US. He would have instituted the Fair Tax Act. Something I am strongly for. Being double taxed blows.

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    DAdams, what do you mean by "double taxed"?

    As for Ron Paul, he definitely would have had my vote. While his view on the current Iraq war may not be too good for us in the long run, the rest of his ideas made a lot of sense. And even if he were to immediately pull all troops out of Iraq, his other ideas were so good that I would have voted for him.

    It's unfortunate that he didn't have a chance though. And even if he was President, most of what he wanted to do would have never been passed, BUT it would have shown the U.S. that someone who holds his ideals is what America needs.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Yes, we pay more for health care. The reason being is Health Care is a business in the US, and the most prominent doctors on this globe come here for just that. Not to be paid an almost worthless salary in comparison to thier skills. So personally I dont want health care standardized, because of this exact reason.
    This is another unfortunate misconception. In comparative studies between the United States and Canada, Canada's Health Care system was deemed to be superior to that of the US's. The comparison was not resoundingly favourable to Canada, but nevertheless, the average citizen receives a higher quality of care here, vs., there.

    The highest tier of specialized practitioners (surgeons, oncologists, etc.) are highly concentrated in the United States, that is correct. However, do you personally have access to them? I do not think you do. Essentially your system is being standardized, but in a manner reverse to mine. Health Care is standardized in the light of equal access in Canada, whereas the highest quality Health Care in the U.S., is being standardized out of the reach of the average citizen.

    Doesn't make much sense, IMO.
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    Maybe if we didn't have so many irresponsible obese pieces of **** in America, health care wouldn't be so damn high.
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM07 View Post
    DAdams, what do you mean by "double taxed"?

    As for Ron Paul, he definitely would have had my vote. While his view on the current Iraq war may not be too good for us in the long run, the rest of his ideas made a lot of sense. And even if he were to immediately pull all troops out of Iraq, his other ideas were so good that I would have voted for him.

    It's unfortunate that he didn't have a chance though. And even if he was President, most of what he wanted to do would have never been passed, BUT it would have shown the U.S. that someone who holds his ideals is what America needs.
    By being double taxed I mean that everything we do with our money right now gets taxed, AFTER it has already been taxed when you earn it, hence being double taxed. I want to be taxed only when I purchase goods or services. In the end being a material driven culture our national debt would actually stabalize pretty quick, and maybe, just maybe all those IOUs (Bonds) out there would actually be paid back to the public, maybe even see a gold bar or two returned to a most likely empty fort knox.

    I disagree with you on him getting things to pass, Ron Paul was a very realistic person, and could easily show someone why his program would work. He actually brought research and logic to the table. But if you dont identify strongly with one side or the other, its a nail in your coffin.

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    I liked Ron Paul, at least on a humanistic level. He made sense, at times. That's a rare quality in politics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    This is another unfortunate misconception. In comparative studies between the United States and Canada, Canada's Health Care system was deemed to be superior to that of the US's. The comparison was not resoundingly favourable to Canada, but nevertheless, the average citizen receives a higher quality of care here, vs., there.

    The highest tier of specialized practitioners (surgeons, oncologists, etc.) are highly concentrated in the United States, that is correct. However, do you personally have access to them? I do not think you do. Essentially your system is being standardized, but in a manner reverse to mine. Health Care is standardized in the light of equal access in Canada, whereas the highest quality Health Care in the U.S., is being standardized out of the reach of the average citizen.

    Doesn't make much sense, IMO.

    I can see the average person recieving better health care in Canada, that wasn't really the point I was making. As you said most of the strongest specialized skill is in this country. I do not use them, well because I do not need them, I am healthy at the moment, and always have been. BUT, I like the idea of having access to them, and not being a number in the health system. If I was dying of cancer, you bet your a$$ I would make it into JOHNS HOPKINS, no matter what it took, and is very doable here.

    I am what you call a Enterpriser Republican, bottom line is you are in control of your own destiny, and if you want the great healthcare, you better have worked for it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    I can see the average person recieving better health care in Canada, that wasn't really the point I was making. As you said most of the strongest specialized skill is in this country. I do not use them, well because I do not need them, I am healthy at the moment, and always have been. BUT, I like the idea of having access to them, and not being a number in the health system. If I was dying of cancer, you bet your a$$ I would make it into JOHNS HOPKINS, no matter what it took, and is very doable here.
    I can see you did not get the point I was making, either.

    I can be secure within the parameters of my coverage, knowing that at anytime I have access to a full range of specialists; how certain can you be your Insurance will approve you, even with comprehensive coverage?

    Medicine-to-the-highest-bidder is a very sick concept, and something that I do not agree with. You say you'd double-time to Johns Hopkins, but this is not true, and we both know that. You would go through a lengthy approval process, in which a 'medical professional' would deem you fit for coverage, and therein the extent of your coverage. Most likely, Johns Hopkins is not a hospital affiliated with your coverage, and as such you would not receive care there, but rather at a pre-approved medical center.

    Unless you are wealthy DA (which you very well may be, I am not sure), as we speak, I have access to a higher quality of Health Care than do you (Canadians have a longer life expectancy, too ).

    I am what you call a Enterpriser Republican, bottom line is you are in control of your own destiny, and if you want the great healthcare, you better have worked for it.

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    And if you were to die due to a lack of coverage, how did your system reward you then? Essentially, you are paying higher taxes than me for less coverage. As I said, I don't feel your problem is in the arena of politics, but of a very broken and corrupt system.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Asbestos is legal in Canada.
    So is leaving a hospital without paying.
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    Quote Originally Posted by ReaperX View Post
    Asbestos is legal in Canada.
    We close down building for having asbestos.
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    The concept of getting better medical service because you are rich is rediculous. People have been tricked into thinking that more money means you are are more important. We've been indirectly told this over and over, and now people believe it.

    Republicans support as system that puts money over people (the democrats do aswell, but not to the same level of evil). Their goals revolve around making the rich richer. People are getting poorer and poorer, owning property is becoming impossible for the average person. Poverty is rampant among people that work 6 days a week and the only reason it's happening is because Donald Trump wants another billion dollars. I will admit that someone like Bill Gates desrevres more money than I do. He has worked harder, and smarter than I have in my life. But he has not worked 13 million times harder or smarter than I have. He has a disproportinate piece of the pie, and because of that people are dying. (I'm not trying to **** on Gates personally too much, he's done a lot of good with his money lately).

    We are hilariously complaciant, with our TV and our internet, but things are just going to get worse. I'd like to think we (I say we even though I'm a Canadian, but it is our fight as well because whether we want to admit it our not, we are completely relative to the US) would have the courage to revolt like the French did, but I doubt it.

    I'd be a democrat in a second, simply becausae they are the lesser of two evils.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dancebot 2000 View Post


    Republicans support as system that puts money over people (the democrats do aswell, but not to the same level of evil).
    No, they put the right to me "CHOOSING" over government mandates saying I have to pay more taxes to cover other peoples cost. We already pay for Medicare and Medicaid which take up the 2nd largest % of our annual budget.

    Their goals revolve around making the rich richer.
    If they actually thought that, they could easily mandate a government health system that would make them more money than any other private institution that requires a hell of lot less oversight than a private company. But its funny how you think the 2nd most corrupt industry (pharm companies) would be a great marriage to the largest corrupt industry (government).

    People are getting poorer and poorer, owning property is becoming impossible for the average person.
    Property ownership in the last 5 years is at an all time high because of Democratic regulations forcing banks to make sub prime and no doc loans. You see the result now....Republicans were AGAINST government regulations (CRA Amendments of 1995) forcing banks to loan money to those with questionable credit to maintain their ratings. So its funny how you blame Republicans for issues Democrats created in the first place...

    The current sub prime crisis and its effect on the economy is a direct result of government intervention and regulation into the market.


    Poverty is rampant among people that work 6 days a week and the only reason it's happening is because Donald Trump wants another billion dollars.
    Yeah, I'm sure thats it

    I will admit that someone like Bill Gates desrevres more money than I do. He has worked harder, and smarter than I have in my life. But he has not worked 13 million times harder or smarter than I have.
    How do you know and who are you to determine that? If he make the money, good for him.

    He has a disproportinate piece of the pie,
    The pie does not have proportions.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    (Canadians have a longer life expectancy, too ).
    funny, all of the countries who have longer life expectancies also have crap for standing military, and never get involved in world conflicts. Its not a coincidence, its a piece of how the statistics can be bent to sound however you want. with an average of over 4000 men a year in the military dying during the clinton administration (double what has died during the bush administration), its not a surprise that it skews the numbers. Those are primarily 18-24 year olds, so it doesn't take many of them to chop the average low. If you look statistically at life expectancy of people who are 35+, the US is in quite a different spot.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I can see you did not get the point I was making, either.

    I can be secure within the parameters of my coverage, knowing that at anytime I have access to a full range of specialists; how certain can you be your Insurance will approve you, even with comprehensive coverage?

    Pretty sure and I pay for my own.

    Medicine-to-the-highest-bidder is a very sick concept, and something that I do not agree with. You say you'd double-time to Johns Hopkins, but this is not true, and we both know that. You would go through a lengthy approval process, in which a 'medical professional' would deem you fit for coverage, and therein the extent of your coverage.
    Huh? I give them my insurance card. That's about it.

    Most likely, Johns Hopkins is not a hospital affiliated with your coverage, and as such you would not receive care there, but rather at a pre-approved medical center.

    Not so. I'm not a DA nor is my brother who basically seeked out the top neurologist in the North East (at Jefferson) and we made an appointment and had care (diagnosis) the next day. He also pays for his own insurance.



    Essentially, you are paying higher taxes than me for less coverage. As I said, I don't feel your problem is in the arena of politics, but of a very broken and corrupt system.

    I don't think we pay higher taxes and the amount of coverage is something we choose...so if we want less, we can...and vice versa.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jerry View Post
    Huh? I give them my insurance card. That's about it.
    I don't think it's a revelation to state that privatized Health-Care can be a hassle.

    Not so. I'm not a DA nor is my brother who basically seeked out the top neurologist in the North East (at Jefferson) and we made an appointment and had care (diagnosis) the next day. He also pays for his own insurance.
    Once again, this is entirely dependent on the level, and breadth of PHI. While I don't doubt your experience, PHI comes with an ability of your provider to determine your 'necessary' coverage. It's also not revelatory to state that PHI is a business, and therefore tries to incur the least cost possible i.e., cheapest treatment wins.

    I don't think we pay higher taxes and the amount of coverage is something we choose...so if we want less, we can...and vice versa.
    Unfortunately, you do. Americans pay about 4% more tax than do Canadians for state-funded health care options (Medicaid, etc.,) and pay double the amount per-capita for less coverage (about 1/3 of the State is not covered).

    I'm not knocking the States, nor Republicans, as I hate Dems., equally, just stating what I perceive as the 'facts'. OECD Comparative studies are abound if you wish to take a look. Google "OECD Health Care Study" or something to that effect. Kind of surprising data.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bLacKjAck. View Post
    Why the guys here that are "Democrats" feel good about being one. I just can't fathom supporting even more taxing and bigger government.

    Why the hell would you support that? Anyone who votes for Hillary or Obama is doing just that. What's the rationale?

    I don't want to hear an excuse of how they aren't for bigger gov. and raising taxes, bc you know damn well they are.

    Just wondering....

    I can giive you my opinion seeing as i am a dem and a poli sci major.

    the reason most democrats are democrats is because they agree with the ideals that fall within those party lines. They feel that they need tax because they want fund the government given products. If we didnt have taxes then we wouldnt have the streets you and I both ride on everyday. Nor would we have the police or any service that is provided to us. The world is not free and democrats realize we must all pay for it. As for more government control (larger government), both parties as of late have taken on this traditionally democratic ideal. The difference is republicans look more for stronger military, religious based laws that are national (for example. no abortion), among many other things. democrats look for more services keeping jobs in the country using th power of the government, national health care, etc. look at CA where i am from the rep's in office here and the national government prez have brought us in to a huge debt in CA alone. There are many reasons why one person goes one way and another the other way.

    I could give you more info, but i will open it up to you! Also, I love paying higher taxes and as for the idea of larger government , i love that too.

    would you answer this ? for me? In light of how the government is right now after 8 years with a rep prez and 6 years(till 2006-7) with a congress and house/senate controlled also by rep's; why would you vote for a rep? After all they have done for our country.

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    Quote Originally Posted by skunkman View Post
    I think that the ideology behind liberalism has derived itself from the delusional thought of a "perfect" world. In theory the ideas are good.

    Free Health Care
    Free Food
    Free Housing

    Next they will be demanding that it is their "right" to own a car. There is no end to the madness.

    The idea that we as a country will reach a state that allows one not to worry about life's mishaps and trials is very appealing. Many young people do not know it but the goal of the liberals is to eliminate money. They just follow along and it spreads.


    The problem with this mind f*ck of an idea (liberalism) is that humans cannot achieve a coexistence were money is not an issue. Corruption and greed will take over.

    So yeah I would like to here why Democrats support what they do. (in there own words, not mine. lol)

    I find it funny that you think we want to eliminate money.... interesting tell me more....
    care to back up these ideas? bases? sources?
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    Quote Originally Posted by AM07 View Post
    I don't think all Democrats are liberal in the sense of the word as we know it today. I think many Democrats do hold liberal values as well as conservative values. To tell you the truth, I believe the majority of people in this country are towards the middle with no extremes. It's only the extremists that get the attention though.

    The reason young people follow the ideology of today's liberalism (polar opposite of classic liberalism pre-1970) is because it's indoctrinated in their heads from all of the leftist universities in this country. When you have professors that spend the majority of their life in a laboratory and/or classroom working with theories and never real-world experience, of course they're going to be searching for the most ideal path to goodness in our society.

    I would love free healthcare, free education, etc., but at the expense of higher taxes, bigger government, and more worthless government bureaucracies? Of course not. We make do with what we've got, and it seems every year, the government just keeps expanding it's reach and control over all of us.

    It's unfortunate we don't have a really good candidate running for President this year, because our country really needs one right now. Mitt Romney should have been the Republican nominee, but the dumbasses in this country couldn't see past his religion.

    We have free education, by the way did you know we as a country spend less on education then 6 of the top 10 wealthiest countries in the world. No wonder out sourcing is becoming so popular!
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    Your right I did not fully explain my thoughts on that one. Obviously money is needed to function as a whole. My statement taken as stated above; was a little far fetched for the context it was used but still true in a sense.

    I should have said the personal responsibility of ones money.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    See, I personally didn't see how in the world anyone looked past Ron Paul. He bar none should have been our next commander in chief. He had no extreme to the right or left, though he claimed republican. We was the best candidate for our economy. Though there are things I didnt agree with on him, such as in the war, but overall his ideals were rock solid.

    Adams

    He was actually very extreme in both his fiscal policy and his social policy. Dont get me wrong i love the guy. he is really smart, however, his ideas were not so practical. Also, he might have had a chance had he played with big business, but he didnt, he could not be sold. I like him for that fact.
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    Quote Originally Posted by skunkman View Post
    Your right I did not fully explain my thoughts on that one. Obviously money is needed to function as a whole. My statement taken as stated above was a little far fetched for the context it was used but still true in a sense.

    I should have said the personal responsibility of ones money.

    I see your point, although, i disagree. your point is valid. At the same time you could say that many republicans dont handle money well. looking at the example of the war or whats going on with the housing market.

    It is funny to me, how many people dont realize they are actually federalists and not republicans.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    http://www.oecd.org/dataoecd/46/33/38979719.pdf

    That's a misguided concept; as an American citizen, you are already paying double (approximately) what I am as a Canadian citizen for Health Care. This figure is both public and private spending, and your country spends more than mine does in GDP percentage points. You're already paying more than you think - much more. I think what you want is a more effective system, not less taxes.

    agreed!!!!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    Yes, we pay more for health care. The reason being is Health Care is a business in the US, and the most prominent doctors on this globe come here for just that. Not to be paid an almost worthless salary in comparison to thier skills. So personally I dont want health care standardized, because of this exact reason.

    I do agree with you on the more effective system. Which is why I did bring up Ron Paul. His views were all about improving the economic system of the US. He would have instituted the Fair Tax Act. Something I am strongly for. Being double taxed blows.

    Adams
    actually doc's in canada and in england do very well sometimes better!
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