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Dwight Schrute

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that is just the silliest statement I have seen today. I am no Clinton supporter by any stretch, but what the Bush administration has done should be considered criminal. But hey, at least he is a republican :rofl:
Are you kidding me? The Bush administration's actually put MORE restrictions on sub prime and no doc loans FAR more than Clinton did. It was the CLinton administration who amended the Community Reinvestment Act that CREATED the sub prime market. Your job was a direct result of government regulation and forcing banks to lend out to low and middle income workers with very little credit to maintain their ratings. Your whole industry would never have existed if it wasn't for government trying to be fair.

I agree with you on Bear Stearns as I already know what the market and people 401k's would do, but to blame the housing bubble and bust on the Bush administration is just flat out ridiculous and wrong. In 2005 Bush actually made changes (as a result of the 2002 reviews) and was pressure by community groups such as ACORN to leave the status quo....THE CRA system is what helped create this whole problem and Democrats wanted to EXPAND IT!
 

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as well as a result of him specifically, he mentioned he was assistant vp for 7 years of a mortgage lender serving subprime that has since gone under.... which is funny, I guess thats why he thinks the poor innocent people his staff took advantage of should be taken care of by other peoples tax money? guilt? or is it that he wants his job back?
silly statements such as these are exactly why I must ignore your commentary from this point further. No use in getting into personal attacks
 

AE14

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I'm not arguing that point. I am telling you what most Republicans think. I already know the what the consequence of not bailing out investment banks would be and agree it was the right thing to do...and I'm Republican....
this was directed towards EJL I believe

Your predatory lending was a result of Democratic intervention and the amendment of the CRA of 1995.
no disagreement, as I said before I am not a fan of Clinton either, however the predatory lending has not been restricted severly enough regardless of the Clinton-Bush administration


I don't have to proud of anything and I certainly don't believe Big Brother is watching me unlike some other paranoid people out there.
I will say this, that things along the lines of the patriot act would have our founding fathers spinning in their graves. Also keep in mind that these violations of guaranteed rights are for our benefit of course :rofl:
 
DAdams91982

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I will say this, that things along the lines of the patriot act would have our founding fathers spinning in their graves. Also keep in mind that these violations of guaranteed rights are for our benefit of course :rofl:
I am a supporter of the patriot act for the sheer fact that it has thwarted terrorist attempts, and put some people that want to hurt Americans right where they belong.

My question to you is this. Tell me EXACTLY how your life has changed since the induction of the patriot act? I am in the military and already gave up quite a few of my rights myself, so I would like to hear the how and why from someone who seems to be impacted by it.

Adams
 

AE14

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I am a supporter of the patriot act for the sheer fact that it has thwarted terrorist attempts, and put some people that want to hurt Americans right where they belong.

My question to you is this. Tell me EXACTLY how your life has changed since the induction of the patriot act? I am in the military and already gave up quite a few of my rights myself, so I would like to hear the how and why from someone who seems to be impacted by it.

Adams
First let me say this, I commend and thank your service, that is no BS. Anyone who serves their country deserves a great deal of respect.

Just to quote from the provisions:
Among its provisions, the Act increased the ability of law enforcement agencies to search telephone, e-mail communications, medical, financial and other records; eased restrictions on foreign intelligence gathering within the United States; expanded the Secretary of the Treasury’s authority to regulate financial transactions, particularly those involving foreign individuals and entities; and enhanced the discretion of law enforcement and immigration authorities in detaining and deporting immigrants suspected of terrorism-related acts. The act also expanded the definition of terrorism to include "domestic terrorism," thus enlarging the number of activities to which the Patriot Act’s expanded law enforcement powers can be applied.

I think when you look at this you begin to see how the power of the executive branch has become larger than it was ever intended. Now, has it directly affected me at thi smoment, not that I am aware of. However, I dont like the idea of people listening in to others' conversations, emails etc....
 
Dwight Schrute

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no disagreement, as I said before I am not a fan of Clinton either, however the predatory lending has not been restricted severly enough regardless of the Clinton-Bush administration
Restricted? They are basically out of business and those gardeners turned real estate agent and/or mortgage broker are back to being gardeners. People get greedy..there are no regulations in the world that will stop that.



I will say this, that things along the lines of the patriot act would have our founding fathers spinning in their graves. Also keep in mind that these violations of guaranteed rights are for our benefit of course :rofl:
If our founding fathers had any clue about what the world would be like today, they would have probably enacted the Patriot Act themselves. I don't think you understand the mindset of our founding fathers very well because they sure didn't care that much for your everyday citizen. They were elitists to the core.
 

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If our founding fathers had any clue about what the world would be like today, they would have probably enacted the Patriot Act themselves. I don't think you understand the mindset of our founding fathers very well because they sure didn't care that much for your everyday citizen. They were elitists to the core.
Oh to the contrary I do get it, and yes the majority were elitists. However, the document written was not soley for the benefit of the elite. I think that your view of them is misguided by the view of more modenr leaders
 
Dwight Schrute

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Oh to the contrary I do get it, and yes the majority were elitists. However, the document written was not soley for the benefit of the elite. I think that your view of them is misguided by the view of more modenr leaders

No, my viewpoints are from studying primary documents earning a degree. My viewpoints on them come from their own words and their own feeling of what government should be.

The Constitution didn't even apply to you if you didn't own property so to think these founding fathers would have cared about your privacy when they denied basic human rights is laughable.
 

AE14

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No, my viewpoints are from studying primary documents earning a degree. My viewpoints on them come from their own words and their own feeling of what government should be.

The Constitution didn't even apply to you if you didn't own property so to think these founding fathers would have cared about your privacy when they denied basic human rights is laughable.
Its funny how two people evidently with degrees in similar arenas, are finding basic principles at odds.

In terms of founding fathers and the constitution, I would love to see you quote areas where your statements are validated. As I have already granted, many not all were elitists. So please take the floor and educate the masses
 
Dwight Schrute

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Its funny how two people evidently with degrees in similar arenas, are finding basic principles at odds.

In terms of founding fathers and the constitution, I would love to see you quote areas where your statements are validated. As I have already granted, many not all were elitists. So please take the floor and educate the masses


I thought I did but I'll give you the three biggest episodes that showed how 3 of the most popular Presidents thought executive power was interpreted.

First, Jackson's war on the Bank of the United States. (this would be similar to Bush taking control of the federal reserve)

Jefferson's purchase of the Louisiana territory. (this would be similar to Bush buying half of Mexico on his own and stating its part of the United States..on his own...without Congress)

Lincolns suspension of habeas corpus because troops were having a tough time crossing Maryland (because there was a good deal of "subversive groups" in the area). Not because of an attack, because of "troop movements". Can you imagine what he would do today? You actually think he would care about your privacy over the protection of the country? This is Lincoln...the man who challenged slavery but when it came national security, he would take your rights away in a second. His suspension of habeas corpus meant you couldn't even participate in what he deemed "subversive speech". Now does that sound like man who would care about your phone and email conversations?

All 3 showed how far they thought executive powers went and in terms of today they probably would say Bush hasn't gone far enough. They went WAY further...
 

AE14

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2 of those are not founding fathers.

Also, considering Jackson the wealthy elite is a stretch. He came from nothing down in the Carolinas (both still claim him btw) and really was a poor working attorney. His battle over the bank was more about Nicholas Biddle and Henry Clay and them working around his power. He was a bit of a power freak.

Jefferson's episode was an interesting one, and just showed that he was a hypocrite

I do agree that lincoln and jackson were Page Ranking!cks however
 
Dwight Schrute

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2 of those are not founding fathers.
But are great examples of how some of the most influential Presidents interpreted the Constitution which gives insight to what the original intent was....but if you want to limit the discussion to "founding fathers" we can do that.

Also, considering Jackson the wealthy elite is a stretch. He came from nothing down in the Carolinas (both still claim him btw) and really was a poor working attorney. His battle over the bank was more about Nicholas Biddle and Henry Clay and them working around his power. He was a bit of a power freak.
What he was and where he came from does little to explain what he did. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...

It was a President using executive powers to the extreme to counter a "founding fathers" idea (Hamilton) of a centralized bank.

Jefferson's episode was an interesting one, and just showed that he was a hypocrite
Right. To pull off that move he had to admit to Hamilton's idea of a centralized bank. More power...from 2 founding fathers.


I do agree that lincoln and jackson were Page Ranking!cks however
I don't think any of these guys would be rolling in any grave because of the Patriot Act. It simply is nothing compared to what most of these guys did.

I mean, labeling someone 3/5th of a man should give anyone a clue.
 

AE14

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What he was and where he came from does little to explain what he did. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck...
I disagree plain nand simple

It was a President using executive powers to the extreme to counter a "founding fathers" idea (Hamilton) of a centralized bank.
I dont know if this qualifies as using extreme power. Jackson had his Treasury stop making deposits and begin using pet banks. Sadly this later killed Van Buren's presidency, but this does not help your side of the discussion

Right. To pull off that move he had to admit to Hamilton's idea of a centralized bank. More power...from 2 founding fathers.
actually this was an issue about implied and expressed powers and as a dem-repub Jefferson made himself look foolish. However, he played it off in true jeffersonian fashion which was silence. This issue had little to do with an already deceased hamilton.



I don't think any of these guys would be rolling in any grave because of the Patriot Act. It simply is nothing compared to what most of these guys did.
I mean, labeling someone 3/5th of a man should give anyone a clue.
I will agree with you that many, as slave holders did have an issue, but when you read through the document you can see the need for rights (be it only for whites at the time) but rights none the less.
 
Dwight Schrute

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I disagree plain nand simple
Yeah, actions are overrated. :)

I dont know if this qualifies as using extreme power. Jackson had his Treasury stop making deposits and begin using pet banks. Sadly this later killed Van Buren's presidency, but this does not help your side of the discussion
Jackson abolished the Bank of United States. He removed money by his own authority.

"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out."


That doesn't sound like extreme power to me :rolleyes:

actually this was an issue about implied and expressed powers and as a dem-repub Jefferson made himself look foolish. However, he played it off in true jeffersonian fashion which was silence. This issue had little to do with an already deceased hamilton.
It doen'st matter what you think it was about...the simple fact he acted on his own, going against what a founding father has expressed sort of tells you the story. But in your eyes, that has little to do with anything.

I will agree with you that many, as slave holders did have an issue, but when you read through the document you can see the need for rights (be it only for whites at the time) but rights none the less.
Selective rights...but I"m sure they are rolling in those graves... :lol:



but I get your point..the Patriot Act, which was actually signed by Congress, is much worse than what these guys have done...

:)
 

AE14

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Yeah, actions are overrated. :)



Jackson abolished the Bank of United States. He removed money by his own authority.

"You are a den of vipers. I intend to rout you out and by the Eternal God I will rout you out."


That doesn't sound like extreme power to me :rolleyes:



It doen'st matter what you think it was about...the simple fact he acted on his own, going against what a founding father has expressed sort of tells you the story. But in your eyes, that has little to do with anything.



Selective rights...but I"m sure they are rolling in those graves... :lol:



but I get your point..the Patriot Act, which was actually signed by Congress, is much worse than what these guys have done...

:)
so far what I see is that a president has authority. Thank you for clearing that up.

Keep in mind something that you seem to be glossing over, regardless of what is signed by congress, certain things are drawn directly from the president, which goes along with the Patriot act. Try to keep that in mind, considering you keep mentioning it with other presidents.
 
Dwight Schrute

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so far what I see is that a president has authority. Thank you for clearing that up.
Yeah, they haven't gone over the line more so than this President. Bush can never be better than anyone else...it simply is impossible for some :)


Keep in mind something that you seem to be glossing over, regardless of what is signed by congress, certain things are drawn directly from the president, which goes along with the Patriot act. Try to keep that in mind, considering you keep mentioning it with other presidents.
Yes, Presidents have authority. Someone told me that one time :)
 

AE14

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Yeah, they haven't gone over the line more so than this President. Bush can never be better than anyone else...it simply is impossible for some :)
I can see that we are going to go around in circles. At the end of the day we have had 8 horrific years of this president and 2 of this congress, tell me which has been worse. Try to be honest of course



Yes, Presidents have authority. Someone told me that one time :)[/QUOTE]
I am gald you were reading the first part of my previous post:rofl:
 

hardgainer100

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It is very interesting to hear all of you discuss the divisive nature of politics in the USA. I was raised a conservative catholic all my life living in the lower middle class. I dated a young woman in college whose daddy was a doctor and spoiled the crap out of his children. After that experience I had, always hearing a naive` lifestyle and how George Bush was the greatest president we ever had I wanted to do my own research on politics. I looked at a lot of key issues with America and came to some rationales. Here are some issues I would like to hear from some of you:

Death Penalty/Capital Punishment

It was very interesting hearing evangelical baptists talk in church on Sundays preaching about forgiveness and how we all have the chance to be saved. Shoot, even Ted Bundy. What I don't understand is that they are so quick in supporting the death penalty for trading a life for another life. Seems somewhat hypocritical to me.

Health Care

I have many friends in the health industry and I can tell you what they tell me. Did you know that HMO's in America give doctors pay incentives for spending less time with their patients and who diagnose less ailments. In the UK it is the opposite, doctors get incentives for finding more ailments and spending more quality time with patients. You tell me what type of doctor you feel more safe around?

Infrastructure

Being a civil engineer I am a bit biased at this subject and is a heavy issue for me in the upcoming election. This is a subject that deserves more attention than it receives and if we don't act in the near future will create deadly consequences. Just look at what happened in Minnesota just a year ago to sense the aftermath. What drives our nation's economy, to a degree, is how fast shipments are imported and exported. If this transportation (air, sea, road) system is taken for granted, it can have negative consequences. For every $1 billion put towards transportation, 30,000 jobs are created, and for every minute spent in traffice think of the money we are losing, the time with family lost? I can guarantee you our infrastructure sucks and I ask the military, why defend a nation that is crumbling from within and rebuilding a country wrought with civil dispute? Ask yourselves this question, what would it be like if we didn't have taxes to pay for this stuff? Do you think the American people even care about a system they take for granted everyday?

It seems that politics, from either party, have lost the sense of what our great country stood for. Just look at the words engraved on the statue of liberty: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Just remember, what we decide on election will effect a country that our children and their children will have to live with.

:cheers:
 

AE14

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It seems that politics, from either party, have lost the sense of what our great country stood for. Just look at the words engraved on the statue of liberty: "Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses yearning to breathe free." Just remember, what we decide on election will effect a country that our children and their children will have to live with.

:cheers:
very true and well said. both parties are screwed as they have let their own interests interceed the benefit of the common people. We need a true independent populist candidate, however that will never happen as they arent the ones bringing in the big $$$$$ from the special interests
 
Mulletsoldier

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Health Care

I have many friends in the health industry and I can tell you what they tell me. Did you know that HMO's in America give doctors pay incentives for spending less time with their patients and who diagnose less ailments. In the UK it is the opposite, doctors get incentives for finding more ailments and spending more quality time with patients. You tell me what type of doctor you feel more safe around?
Exactly what I was saying previously. Don't tell Bobo this, though. American PHIs would never do that.

;)

(love you Bobo)
 
EasyEJL

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very true and well said. both parties are screwed as they have let their own interests interceed the benefit of the common people. We need a true independent populist candidate, however that will never happen as they arent the ones bringing in the big $$$$$ from the special interests

yes it really is a choice of "do you want us to jam our **** in your left ear" vs "do you want us to jam our **** in your right ear"
 
Dwight Schrute

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Exactly what I was saying previously. Don't tell Bobo this, though. American PHIs would never do that.

;)

(love you Bobo)
Neither would your government :rolleyes:

I think I remember saying I didn't want the second most corrupt industry (health care) to be run by the most corrupt industry (government).

But if you want politicians running your health care system, have fun with that. :D


You can find horror stories about both:

John Turley-Ewart: The ugly face of Canada's medicare - Full Comment

..but now, the Flyers call.
 

skunkman

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Question: "What does the Bible say about the death penalty / capital punishment?"

Answer: The Old Testament law commanded the death penalty for various acts: murder (Exodus 21:12), kidnapping (Exodus 21:16), bestiality (Exodus 22:19); adultery (Leviticus 20:10); homosexuality (Leviticus 20:13), being a false prophet (Deuteronomy 13:5), prostitution (Leviticus 21:9) and rape (Deuteronomy 22:24-25), and several other crimes. However, God often showed mercy when the death penalty was due. David committed adultery and murder, yet God did not demand his life be taken (2 Samuel 11:1-5, 14-17; 2 Samuel 12:13). Ultimately, each and every sin we commit should result in the death penalty (Romans 6:23). Thankfully, God demonstrates His love for us in not condemning us (Romans 5:8).
 

hardgainer100

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I believe the death penalty is warranted in certain cases but think of its vindictive nature. It is a vengeful act of law; do you believe we go to church each Sunday to seek revenge on the people that do us harm? I thought one of the ten commandments was "thou shall not kill." It doesn't say, unless you kill others. It is so interesting to see Right Wing judgement kill a man for great sin but condemn a woman for committing an abortion after she is raped. I don't believe in abortion but have you ever thought of the consequences legalizing Roe vs Wade in the USA? You would be naive in believing all abortions would stop, rape, incest would stop. They would just take it underground where there is more danger for the health of the woman.
 
EasyEJL

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I believe the death penalty is warranted in certain cases but think of its vindictive nature.
Its not vindictive at all. It is because the crimes committed were horrible enough, and done with foreknowledge and planning that shows no regard for the rest of humanity so there is no chance that they would ever become a valuable part of society again.
 
ShakesAllDay

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I don't believe in 'God' and am all for the death penalty. I believe some crimes deserve it. Yeah, I'm a judgmental as*hole.
 

AE14

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In terms of the death penalty, I do agree that certain crimes necessitate the death penalty. I was just watching something about child rape and the push for that to receive the death penalty, and I was thrilled with that prospect
 
DAdams91982

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I don't believe in 'God' and am all for the death penalty. I believe some crimes deserve it. Yeah, I'm a judgmental as*hole.
Oh Yeah... I believe in God, and STILL am all for the death penalty. I reclaim your throne son. :D

Adams
 

Vtaper

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"hardgainer100]I thought one of the ten commandments was "thou shall not kill." It doesn't say, unless you kill others. It is so interesting to see Right Wing judgement kill a man for great sin but condemn a woman for committing an abortion after she is raped."

When translated from Hebrew, it actually says 'Thou shall not commit murder'.

Im no bible thumper, but this is one of the most mis-quoted passages from the bible that the left loves to throw around when defending abortion and condemning the death penalty.
And for the record, you will have a hard time finding an average person on the Right who would say a rape victim should not be allowed an abortion.

On a side note, someone earlier in this thread quoted Thomas Jefferson's 'society needs a revolution' saying, what I find intriguing is when someone on the Right quotes Jefferson, the same lefty's who love to misinterpret his 'society needs a revolution', and 'seperation of church and state' words, suddenly remember Jefferson as a racist slave owner.
 
EasyEJL

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but hey, he wasn't afraid to throw some d!ck into one of his slave women, so not all racist
 

hardgainer100

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VTaper: "And for the record, you will have a hard time finding an average person on the Right who would say a rape victim should not be allowed an abortion."

I agree with you, but most evangelical christian "bible-thumpers" will not agree with you. They believe all abortions, even if justified are murdering a life. You might suggest I misinterpret the constitution but here's a little history for you. When Thomas Jefferson wrote the constitution and says the words: "all men are created equal" he was excluding men without property, women, children, and slaves. In today's standards he holds a lot of Republican ideas and was still able to get some "nookie" from people he didn't give equal rights to. BTW, a lot of Republicans feel left-wing democracy is more about Government controlling the rights of individuals. Wouldn't it be hypocritical for them to say you won't have the right to an abortion?:run:
 

Vtaper

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VTaper: "And for the record, you will have a hard time finding an average person on the Right who would say a rape victim should not be allowed an abortion."

I agree with you, but most evangelical christian "bible-thumpers" will not agree with you. They believe all abortions, even if justified are murdering a life. You might suggest I misinterpret the constitution but here's a little history for you. When Thomas Jefferson wrote the constitution and says the words: "all men are created equal" he was excluding men without property, women, children, and slaves. In today's standards he holds a lot of Republican ideas and was still able to get some "nookie" from people he didn't give equal rights to. BTW, a lot of Republicans feel left-wing democracy is more about Government controlling the rights of individuals. Wouldn't it be hypocritical for them to say you won't have the right to an abortion?:run:
WOW!!
Heres a little history for you. Thomas Jefferson was not a member of the constitutional convention, did not sign the constitution, and was not even in the country when the constitution was written by..........my dogg James Madison.

So yes, you would be misinterpreting the hell out the constitution, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt that you meant the Declaration of Independance.

My whole Jefferson thing was not even directed at you , but your response just made my point even stronger. I was illustrating that people on the left can be the biggest Jefferson nuthuggers, but bring up the "men without property, slave owner" blah blah blah when its conveniant like you just did. And in todays standards he holds a lot of Republican ideas? Could you please list some of those?

Take a look at this link and tell me which side of the political spectrum the racist,sexist slave owner is on.
http://www.gather.com/viewArticle.jsp?articleId=281474976935441

And on the abortion thing, yes, the Evangelicals do consider all abortions immoral and should not be allowed, but they are the exception to the rule, So for those who consider abortion a "right", then yes, the far right would like to take that away.

But that would save the lives of around 1400 black babies a day, so that kinda flies in the face of the racist sterotype.:run:
 

AE14

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this thread has taken an entirely different path
 

AE14

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And pretty far off of answering the original question.

Good while it lasted though. Really haven't heard anything convincing at all :D
Agreed


I think both sides are equally foolish in their decision making
 

AM07

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We should assign the death penalty to more prisoners locked up. If we made prison a place where people don't ever want to go back, maybe they would slow down on the crimes they commit, or ultimately stop committing harsh crimes.

But the dumbass libs scream of prisoners' rights and all this bullshit, how about the rights of the two people that person murdered in cold blood? Remember the case of Stanley Tookie Williams, that shithead who murdered three people in a convenience store during a robbery, and all these losers and Al Sharpton (the biggest joke in America) were screaming at Arnold to excuse him of death? **** that, he killed three people in cold blood, he deserves to die.

If you kill someone in cold blood, as soon as your found guilty, they should take them out back and blow a bullet through their face. Obviously, every case needs to be looked at differently, but for example, if a gang member kills another gang member for throwing up a different set, then **** him, what good is he to society? Exterminate the piece of ****.
 

AE14

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We should assign the death penalty to more prisoners locked up. If we made prison a place where people don't ever want to go back, maybe they would slow down on the crimes they commit, or ultimately stop committing harsh crimes.

But the dumbass libs scream of prisoners' rights and all this bullshit, how about the rights of the two people that person murdered in cold blood? Remember the case of Stanley Tookie Williams, that shithead who murdered three people in a convenience store during a robbery, and all these losers and Al Sharpton (the biggest joke in America) were screaming at Arnold to excuse him of death? **** that, he killed three people in cold blood, he deserves to die.

If you kill someone in cold blood, as soon as your found guilty, they should take them out back and blow a bullet through their face. Obviously, every case needs to be looked at differently, but for example, if a gang member kills another gang member for throwing up a different set, then **** him, what good is he to society? Exterminate the piece of ****.
you are painting with a fairly wide brush. There are many liberals in faovr of the death penalty in certain issues, and also ones who might not be in favor, but favor prison reform to make it harsher.
 

AM07

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Word, my bad about hating on liberals, since I know many that are for the death penalty. I'm, more or less, talking about the bleeding hearts.

As for prison and law reform, it will never happen in this country, especially law and tort reform. Wanna know why? Because every politician is a cot damn lawyer!
 

AE14

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Word, my bad about hating on liberals, since I know many that are for the death penalty. I'm, more or less, talking about the bleeding hearts.

As for prison and law reform, it will never happen in this country, especially law and tort reform. Wanna know why? Because every politician is a cot damn lawyer!
damn friggin right. the last paragraph is sadly correct
 
kwyckemynd00

kwyckemynd00

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This is another unfortunate misconception. In comparative studies between the United States and Canada, Canada's Health Care system was deemed to be superior to that of the US's. The comparison was not resoundingly favourable to Canada, but nevertheless, the average citizen receives a higher quality of care here, vs., there.
Well, that's a play on words. Better "quality" of care is not quite accurate. There is a definite benefit associated with everyone being covered in Canada, and that preventative measure surely saves Canada some money, and its better for the people in the lower economic classes but better "quality" isn't accurate. The best "quality" medical care is available in the US.

And, as an aside, if you consider the racial homogeneity of Canada the average lifespan isn't that impressive. Your average live span is about that of the average white male in the US. The effect of the average black males lifespan alone throws off our average life span quite a bit (while I'm sure some of this difference in life expectancy between blacks and whites is socieconomic, I've personally seen pretty compelling evidence to suggest that there is a very strong genetic factor). In reality, whites in the US have similar, if not better, life expectancy to whites in Canada (the values change depending on the source). What I believe is a very unfortunate misconception is that the US has a lower level of medical care than places like Cuba, et cetera (thank you Michael Mooron). Cubans living long lives doesn't mean that you want to get a heart transplant done in Cuba. Latin people tend to have longer life expectancies in General, so the life expectancy of Cubans being greater than that of Americans is no surprise because its based on a mean. The truth is that Latinos in America enjoy longer life expectancies than they do in their countries of origin, Cuba included (77 men, 83 women, 80 average).

The biggest problems the US has right now, and a massive contributor to the enormous costs, are: 1) out of control litigation and 2) out of control illegal immigration.

The recent Vice Presidential candidate / bastard John Edwards personally contributed to the number of cesarian sections and the costs associate with both operating a hospital and being an OB/GYN (huge malpractice insurance) based on a statistically unjustified association he drew between doctors not performing cesarians and cerebral palsy. This is just one example, but billions of dollars flowed out of doctors, hospitals, and insurance companies because of him alone. Again, he's just one of many bastards of his type taking advantage of our legal system.

Then there is the illegal immigrant problem. We've got 10-20 million illegal immigrants in the US, most of which have no insurance and produce ungodly numbers of sickly children. In california alone we've seen around 25 hospitals close down in recent years due to costs incurred by illegal immigration.

Anyway, the US healthcare system is in need of major reform. And, although we can learn from the positive associated with the Canadian healthcare system I think to turn to a socialist healthcare policy would be a turn for the worse, especially when considering our exploding illegal population who absolutely love free services without providing sufficient economic input to offset their usage.
 

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