[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by meowmeow

Actually about 40% of the Lebanese population is Christian.

Exactly. This is why it really is a tragedy for the Lebonese, they do not (in general or in majority I should say) support the actions of Hezbollah.

I think people should start looking for some lebanese blogs in english so they can see it for themselves. Even Egypt and Saudi Arabia have told Hezbollah "you're in this one alone".

[x_muscle]

Im from an arabic orgin, and i have a family who lives in Lebanon. 56% of Lebanon are christians. they dont want to get in a war with Isreal. Hizballah is simply a small tripe, with strong military power. they simply control the south part of Lebanon. Christian live in the North part. Isreal is hitting the infastructure in the north which doesnt make sense. 2 soldiers are kidnapped, and scores of civilians in Gaza, and Lebanon are dying because of that.

i know many people who are trying to escape from Gaza, and Lebanon but they cant because Isreal bombed all the airports, and transportation routs in that area, Hamas and Hizballah are doing some idiotic action. But the action of Isreal seems to get dummer by time.

[bioman]

Originally Posted by meowmeow

Hezbollah at its very core is a business. The key people in Hezbollah profit very greatly from running the organization. They profit from controling an area, having access to certain middle east underworld connections and trading in illicit goods/services and weapons. This small group w/in sanctions all sorts of "business" transactions w/ tertiary intelligence groups from all of the western nations as well as with those "well-connected" groups that profit from the black market.

This core controls a large number of members who may be characterized as extremists, fanatical, terroristic and motivated by extreme fundamentalist views. These are the minions, the 99% who do the dirty work for Hezbollah motivated or inflamed by the "preachings" from higher up (from their Establishment).

The core or Establishment that controls Hezbollah does not desire peace nor do they desire a situation that results in complete destruction of their profitable organization. The core will profit financially from this current situation and they will have plenty of "inflamed" fundamentalist joiners to come serve as cannon fodder.

I have had many discussions over the years w/ very, very high placed people in both the intelligence services and their associated tertiary groups. I have witnessed a great many things first-hand as well. Nothing is as it seems on the surface.

Very interesting, Meow.

At heart, I have recognized that most, if not all extremist groups are structured this way. The higher ups are smart people. Smart people do not give themselves over wholly to fanaticism. They certainly may have some zealous views, but they're too smart to waste their life acting on them. They get some dumb kid from a poor village to do that for them. Take him in, fill his head with fire and brimstone and delusions of granduer about inflicting great harm on the enemy, being a martyr bla bla bla.

In reality, the dumb kid goes and splatters his guts at a coffee shop and strenghtens the resolve of the Israelis and gives them carte blanche to do whatever.

The secondary and tertiary interests of these groups is interesting..I never put much thought into it really.

Thank you for sharing that.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by x_muscle

i know many people who are trying to escape from Gaza, and Lebanon but they cant because Isreal bombed all the airports, and transportation routs in that area, Hamas and Hizballah are doing some idiotic action. But the action of Isreal seems to get dummer by time.

No, its very smart. Unfortunately, it keeps the citizens from escaping, but they're (apparently) looking to destroy hezbollah and that is what it takes considering airports and transportation routes are where hezbollah, et al are getting their supplies. they're trying to choke off the enemy.

i doubt the israelis WANT to make their only "potential" sympathizers in the area (the lebanese christians) hate them, but in this case it may be a necessity. Luckily, as I'm sure you know, the lebanese are placing the blame on hezbollah and may "slightly" understand teh response although harshly disagree with it (of course. Nobody wants their country pummeled).

[zaph123]

I feel Israel is doign the correct thing by responding with force. It is a very sucessful way at getting the message they arent palying games out. Israel is going about the right strategies of keeping the Hezbollah form escaping by destryoing means of leaving lebanon such as blowign up the bridges and gas to fuel cars or whatever else it is needed for.

[oswizzle]

Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00

oswizzle, you've got no brain. there is no point arguing with you. you haven't read a damn thing that anybody has posted and actually understood it.

that explains your positions well. it speaks volumes in fact.

I never said let any of the loser countries have Nukes...relax on the name callin buddy....I'll say whatever I want...your the one who chooses to respond...dont get all wett over some forum gossip....

[kwyckemynd00]

Its not gossip.

And, sorry I get a little irritated when I read your posts, but your obviously posting on a subject you have very little information education on and condeming two entire nations for their actions.

[Spartan117]

I have many thoughts on this issue, but one thing that stands out is the fact that religion leads to intollerance, irrational logic, and fanaticism. I like what Maynard said about if you don't like the country get the hell out, but maybe it should be applied to Israel or Lebanon. Many of say diplomacy does not work, but the sad thing is war and killing will not work...it will only intensify the feeling toward each other.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by Spartan117

I have many thoughts on this issue, but one thing that stands out is the fact that religion leads to intollerance, irrational logic, and fanaticism. I like what Maynard said about if you don't like the country get the hell out, but maybe it should be applied to Israel or Lebanon. Many of say diplomacy does not work, but the sad thing is war and killing will not work...it will only intensify the feeling toward each other.

This is like saying guns kill people, not people.

I'm not religious pretty much at all... you can search my posts and see that

But, IMO, its a people problem to the core not a religion problem. People need something to attach to, a belief. Some strong foundation. Depending on the culture, that life foundation they are searchign for is different.

E.G. Christianity during the dark ages was driven by violence in power, very much the opposite of today. What happened? Not the religion...the culture.

[Spartan117]

Kwyck, ur right . What I meant is that the beliefs behind the religion that people feel the need to cling to is what continues to drive the problems. I also think its rediculous for us as a country to sit back and say we support or do not support the actions of those two countries when we have no idea what those people believe. There are not many of us that have been raised under those circumstances that have been developed for 100's of years.

[meowmeow]

Originally Posted by bioman

The secondary and tertiary interests of these groups is interesting..I never put much thought into it really.

Robert Baer a retired CIA case officer in the Directorate of Operations from 1976 to 1997, where he served in Middle Eastern countries, including Iraq and Lebanon in an interview for PBS (frontline: terror and tehran: interviews: robert baer | PBS) had this to say about the structure of Hezbollah:

[EXTRACTED from a longer interview - March 22, 2002]

And how important [is] Hezbollah? ...

It's extremely important. Hezbollah's divided into many parties. There's the Islamic Resistance in the south, which beat the Israelis. They attacked the Israeli army. They defeated the Israeli army on Lebanese soil. I do not know how we can describe that other than a national liberation movement.

I don't agree that Hezbollah itself is a terrorist organization. It delivers powdered milk; it takes care of people. It's a social organization; it's a political organization. It fights corruption.

Then there's the Islamic Resistance, which is an army, which is a guerrilla force, fighting for control of its own country. And then, under the Hezbollah umbrella, was the Islamic Jihad, which I call their special security, which was controlled by Iran, which carried out terrorism against the West. And you can paint Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. You can do that for political reasons, but strictly speaking, it is many things. Just as [with] the IRA, you got Sinn Fein and you've got the real IRA, which is conducting terrorism.

And is the distinction important?


It's very important.


Why?

Well, I mean if you're going to retaliate against terrorism -- what we call terrorism, [which is] the attacking of innocent people for political motives, not liberating your own country -- we have to distinguish the two groups. Fadlallah is not a terrorist. ... He was a spiritual leader in his organization. ... We can't label him a terrorist and fight Hezbollah as an organization in its entirety. We have to isolate the murderers and fight them.


But when [Hezbollah] was taking American hostages...


It wasn't Hezbollah; it was the Islamic Jihad organization which was taking [hostages]. It was a very distinct organization, which was separate from Hezbollah because you had the consultative council which only had a vague idea of what the hostage-takers were doing. The hostage-takers were taking orders from Iran. Hezbollah itself does not care about American citizens running around Lebanon, as it doesn't care today. I mean, as an ex-CIA officer, I can go see Hezbollah, I can talk to them. They don't care. ...


But explain that there is actually a different management structure here [that] we're talking [about]?


Absolutely. And it's very clear that special security in Hezbollah took its orders for all the important years from the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps [in Iran]. Hezbollah itself accepted money and spiritual leadership from Iran, but it had nothing to do with terrorism. Ninety-nine percent of Hezbollah, people in Hezbollah, know nothing about it. They don't have the slightest idea how it works, who's behind it -- the Iranian role. And that nuance, I think, is missed in Washington today.

I think it's a mistake in U.S. foreign policy, first of all, to paint Islam as an enemy, because you get dragged into a cultural war which we can't win. You have to isolate the people who really do sponsor mass murder or kidnappings or individual murders of people, that are killing Americans in Kuwait today, that flew the airplanes in. Those are isolated individuals which don't have anything to do with Islam in general. Same way in Hezbollah. It's a small group of people kidnapping, murdering. But Hezbollah itself is not a terrorist organization.

[jrkarp]

Originally Posted by oswizzle

"illegal occupation" by the Jews is all of Palestine that they call Israel...the whole piece of land was never the Jews to begin with...

Never the Jews' to begin with?

Are you serious?

Your credibility is now at ZERO.

This is the land where Jesus was born and lived. What was Jesus called at the time?

The King of the Jews.*

That was Jewish land for thousands of years before they were kicked out by various groups. This was very much their land to begin with.

Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

*Regardless of your religious beliefs, it is accepted historical fact that a man named Jesus of Nazareth was born, lived, and called the King of the Jews, among other things.

[kwyckemynd00]

Originally Posted by Spartan117

Kwyck, ur right . What I meant is that the beliefs behind the religion that people feel the need to cling to is what continues to drive the problems. I also think its rediculous for us as a country to sit back and say we support or do not support the actions of those two countries when we have no idea what those people believe. There are not many of us that have been raised under those circumstances that have been developed for 100's of years.

No..you didn't read my post correctly. Reread it...if it still doesn't make sense, I"ll try to explain myself more clearly.

Another thing is, I don't understand why people think we have to be sensitive to people of other cultural beliefs. Simple fact of life, and survival. If something is dangerous, its dangerous, regardless of intent or reason.

Do you want to survive? Do you want your grandkids to survive? Who cares what they think, feel, or believe. Lets focus on making this world safe for our relatives. Is this insensitive? yes. But, it is necessary. In fact, the terrorists are doing the exact same thing. They are REALLY doing what they believe is best for "their people". That's the scariest part, they believe wholeheartedly in their actions. It may be a simple disagreement in ideology, but they're willing to kill. And as a result, we must be willing to forget about sensitive and reasonable so that we may survive.

It does not matter to me WHY a person is a serial killer, for example. Nothing can change the fact that they are dangerous. So, regardless of the fact that Mr. A can from Planet B where killing someone is a gift of salvation, its still dangerous regardless of the fact that they're doing it out of kindness. In our society, and with our way of life, its dangerous. and, if we want to continue to live the way we do (or live in general) we have to recognize the danger, forget about the reason, and ensure our survival.

[DazzlinJack]

I just wish Hezbollah's charter would stop calling for the complete destruction of Israel. Didn't Allah say "Love thy neighbor?" It's true that the kidnappings Hezbollah committed may not have been in the best interest of the Lebanese people, but hey, those Lebanese were responsible for bringing this terrorist group into power. And this whole conflict with Jews on Arab lands, man! What's the value of land these days? Lebanon's just a bunch of mountains. Egypt and Jordan has nothing but desert. Israel's the only cushy place with a great view of the Mediterranean Sea (plus they can actually grow their own food and get some walleye/bass while they're at it). Certainly, isn't food a cause worth fighting for?

[meowmeow]

Originally Posted by DazzlinJack

...those Lebanese were responsible for bringing this terrorist group into power...

No not really.

Originally Posted by DazzlinJack

Lebanon's just a bunch of mountains. Egypt and Jordan has nothing but desert. Israel's the only cushy place with a great view of the Mediterranean Sea (plus they can actually grow their own food and get some walleye/bass while they're at it). Certainly, isn't food a cause worth fighting for?

Have you been smoking that wacky weed?

[jrkarp]

Originally Posted by meowmeow

No not really.

Well, Hezbollah is also a political party that has been elected to seats in their parliament, and the Lebanese government has refused to disarm their armed wing, so they are at least partly responsible.