Stuff is really heating up in the mideast...

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kwyckemynd00 said:
Not good if you're a palestinian extremist or the lebonese.
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Or a palestinian child (at least 24 Palestinians dead. These included seven children) or Lebanese civilian (at least 22 civilians were reported killed) or anyone who flys into Beruit int'l airport (warplanes struck the runways of Beirut's international airport...Two flights arriving at the airport had to return to Larnaca Airport) or an Israeli civilian who is in the wrong place when retaliation is sure to come or for a free Lebanese state that does not want to see the Syrians and others come back and fight proxy wars on their soil...

kwyckemynd00 said:
Otherwise, its got its upside.
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Yeah...great point! (for a 23 year old kid that is)
 
Well...sending missilies into Israeli civilian populations is just asking for trouble.

I spent my time reading on the conflict between Israel and its arab neighbors and although there are some dispicable things Israel has done, most of their actions are justified and necessary.

Its obvious diplomacy doesn't work with some people and only unrealistically idealistic "progressives" believe all problems can be solved through diplomacy.

Its sad, but its human nature. Those in control are willing to sacrifice (and manipulate) the poor, stupid populace to attain a goal and the stupid populace will grab onto any ideology based on a strong foundation (religion) and defend it with vigor so long as there is a breath in their body.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
...most of their actions are justified and necessary.
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Doesn't this depend on whose ox is being gored?

kwyckemynd00 said:
Its obvious diplomacy doesn't work with some people...
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Be careful there you might be mistaken for a racist.

kwyckemynd00 said:
Its sad, but its human nature. Those in control are willing to sacrifice (and manipulate) the poor, stupid populace to attain a goal and the stupid populace will grab onto any ideology based on a strong foundation (religion) and defend it with vigor so long as there is a breath in their body.
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Sounds like you are talking about the United States' Establishment and the 99% of the population they rule. Of course it could very well be the Israeli Establishment, the 99.5% of the population they rule and those propaganized minds resident elsewhere who think they have a connection to the homeland.
 
Why does the left always throw out the race card when something that is said, is true, and they cannot belly up and say that it is true... so.. he must be a racist!.... no!

Truth is truth, and just as the Japanese were going to fight to the last child in( and they were training children to guide the cherry blossom planes into targets) world war 2 due to their honor code, the same mindset exsists inside islam. One can never ever ever surrender or make peace with those who do not hold true the teachings of their god. When you have a nation or a people like that, that refuse to live in a peace after a generations worth of talking it out, you must, for the sake of lives on a long term scale, wipe them out in such numbers that their will and the mindset is gone by prolonged military force or two nuclear bombs.

The information is wrong about who makes up our military. Check out the demographics. We have just as many middle class and 90210 zip code residence serving in this optional military as our "poor". It boggles my mind that people can call our military troops "stupid" as you implied . These stupid men and women operate the most impressive aspects of war and peace ever seen in the world. These stupid people keep you safe to make these ignorant comments about them.

It saddens me to see Americans falling under the new banner that hates this nation. If you hate it.. leave, there is nothing stopping you to move to another country. American people love our brave military. American people know that we cannot exsist without them. American people do not need the new york times, or overspoken political figures. The American people know that they need the military.

It makes me happy that people that share this view are found on message boards and blogs. If we had people like this controlling our nation's direction... we would surrender to canada and return texas to mexico. Maybe we would feel bad and ask England to come back....
 
meowmeow said:
Doesn't this depend on whose ox is being gored?
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No...I don't give a crap about the Israeli's and my experience with american israeli's has not been any different than american arabs, so I have no reason to pick favorites. I think you should be asking yourself the same question.
Be careful there you might be mistaken for a racist.
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I think this is very telling about "you", not me. Diplomacy isn't working with "many" (not all) middle eastern parties, north korea, and it didn't work well with imperialist japan or communist russia. Now that I think about it...diplomacy doesn't work very often when you get, period.

You're just overly-sensitive, assuming everyone is racist if they say something that's not PC. There is a difference between realism and racism, get over it.

Sounds like you are talking about the United States' Establishment and the 99% of the population they rule. Of course it could very well be the Israeli Establishment, the 99.5% of the population they rule and those propaganized minds resident elsewhere who think they have a connection to the homeland.
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I said "human nature" didnt I? there you go again, ASSuming I'm talking about "one people". Get over it.

Right now America is divided because there is no one strong voice and people are grabbing for different ideals they have no idea about. this does not mean that other ideals are not more dangerous than others and that some people are not dim-whits and can think for themselves.

This is pretty typical. I should have expected it. say something that most leftists / pro palestinian's dont like and they spew back "you're racist" and other stupid crap.
 
MaynardMeek said:
It boggles my mind that people can call our military troops "stupid" as you implied . These stupid men and women operate the most impressive aspects of war and peace ever seen in the world. These stupid people keep you safe to make these ignorant comments about them.
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No NO NO! I did not denegrate the fine young men and women serving in our armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan. My brother in fact is serving in Iraq today and in Afghanistan previously. Why did you choose to read that in my post?

I was refering to the elite, or the higher circles or the establishment of interests that run this country (IMO there does exist an Establishment which controls most of the wealth. Government was created for and serves the purpose of profiting the Establishment and advancing their interests). This should not be mind-boggling to you. Establishments exist in every country.

MaynardMeek said:
If you hate it.. leave, there is nothing stopping you to move to another country.
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I am actually one of the few that profits handsomely from exactly the set-up we have in this country. Hate it...LOL...I love it!!!!
 
kwyckemynd00 I apologize for misinterpreting your remarks. You are correct I did over-react in implying that you are capable of favoring one race over another. Please just forget my implication toward you in that regard, it was typed in haste and in hindsight I regret having typed it.

Taking into consideration the many posts that I have read from you on this board I believe you are an intelligent young gentleman and apologize for any off-the-cuff remark that seemed to imply that your opinions had been informed by anything less than a well learned considered mind.

kwyckemynd00 said:
This is pretty typical. I should have expected it. say something that most leftists / pro palestinian's dont like and they spew back "you're racist" and other stupid crap.
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You and others are mistaken. I am not a leftist. I am not pro-palestinian. You choose to misinterpret my point of view and give me a pejorative label. Concerning your opinion that my view-point is "stupid crap" I choose to only smile.
 
Actually don't blame Americans at all for this mess. Europe created it when they drew country borders with no consideration that now a country was created with groups that hated each other. It's easy to draw a line on a natural obstacle and call it a border, but several mideast countries were created with groups in cinflict with each other for centuries.
Europe sent their Jewish population to Isreal because they would up and decide now and then to murder them. So the same whiners in Europe that started this crap now bash the US for things Europe created.
Oh yea, now that the Jews are in the Middle East we can get the Arabs to kill them and get oil and keep our trouble making Arab minority happy.
 
Re: ME borders...

Watch the last half hour of Lawrence of Arabia..it pretty much highlights where things started to head downhill.

Been goin down ever since. Weeeeeeee!
 
Israel's Govt is whack....so is ours for being the only country in the U.N to veto a resolution that said the Jews were using too much force...so the U.S is saying its ok too attack and kill 60 people so far over 2 soldiers in Lebanon....People in the U.S need to quit watching Fox News and wake up to the fact that our support for Israel is never going to benefit us in anyway...and it just wasnt the British involved in the sending the Jews to Palestine....its our fundamentalist Christian Leaders who believe that the Jews belong in Palestine according to the Bible...So I guess if a Crip or a Blood from Compton kill two Police Officers we'll just send in the U.S Millitary to Bomb the Hood to ruble and ash..
 
oswizzle said:
Israel's Govt is whack....so is ours for being the only country in the U.N to veto a resolution that said the Jews were using too much force...so the U.S is saying its ok too attack and kill 60 people so far over 2 soldiers in Lebanon....People in the U.S need to quit watching Fox News and wake up to the fact that our support for Israel is never going to benefit us in anyway...and it just wasnt the British involved in the sending the Jews to Palestine....its our fundamentalist Christian Leaders who believe that the Jews belong in Palestine according to the Bible...So I guess if a Crip or a Blood from Compton kill two Police Officers we'll just send in the U.S Millitary to Bomb the Hood to ruble and ash..
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The UN is the successor of the League of Nations. Both of which are useless and impotent organizations. Look at what good the LON did during WWII. If you wait for the UN to make a move that is good for humanity, you'll be waiting for a long time. In hitlers words, they'll probably just perform another one of their famous "sitzkreig's" (sits-kreig) the next time they are faced with a dangerous foe.

This wasn't about "two kidnappings". that was a straw that broke the camel's back. This is about the fact that the "supposed" problem and the cause for all of the attackigns was the "illegal occupation", by israel, of such places as gaza and lebanon. Well, israel left lebanon years ago adn gave back gaza, forcing its own citizens out of their homes. The result, NOT ONE DAY have the bombing and violence stopped. It has continued and the death of their citizens has continued despite generous movements by the Israelis. This proves that the Islamic fundamentalists in that area, which are obviously numberous, wish to destroy israel and there is no legitimate reason for their actions. So, Israel is doing what it must to survive, period.

Think past the drool on your chin and quit listening to the morons in the LA and NY times who are nothing but dellusional communists with a utopian dream and a hate for all things western and democratic.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
The UN is the successor of the League of Nations. Both of which are useless and impotent organizations. Look at what good the LON did during WWII. If you wait for the UN to make a move that is good for humanity, you'll be waiting for a long time. In hitlers words, they'll probably just perform another one of their famous "sitzkreig's" (sits-kreig) the next time they are faced with a dangerous foe.

This wasn't about "two kidnappings". that was a straw that broke the camel's back. This is about the fact that the "supposed" problem and the cause for all of the attackigns was the "illegal occupation", by israel, of such places as gaza and lebanon. Well, israel left lebanon years ago adn gave back gaza, forcing its own citizens out of their homes. The result, NOT ONE DAY have the bombing and violence stopped. It has continued and the death of their citizens has continued despite generous movements by the Israelis. This proves that the Islamic fundamentalists in that area, which are obviously numberous, wish to destroy israel and there is no legitimate reason for their actions. So, Israel is doing what it must to survive, period.

Think past the drool on your chin and quit listening to the morons in the LA and NY times who are nothing but dellusional communists with a utopian dream and a hate for all things western and democratic.
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"illegal occupation" by the Jews is all of Palestine that they call Israel...the whole piece of land was never the Jews to begin with...for thousand of years b4 WWII that land didnt have one Jew on it.....how would u feel if someone came and took ur home from u and treated u worst than livestock and told u that ur home is no longer urs...i guess u wouldnt happen to know bout that buddy would u ...
 
oswizzle said:
"illegal occupation" by the Jews is all of Palestine that they call Israel...the whole piece of land was never the Jews to begin with...for thousand of years b4 WWII that land didnt have one Jew on it.....how would u feel if someone came and took ur home from u and treated u worst than livestock and told u that ur home is no longer urs...i guess u wouldnt happen to know bout that buddy would u ...
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Damn right. The should give that land right back a soon as we hand over America to the Indians. Except my house. I'm keeping that.
 
mp5man1 said:
Damn right. The should give that land right back a soon as we hand over America to the Indians. Except my house. I'm keeping that.
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Hey bro if the Indians from some tribe killed some Sheriffs or whatever we wouldnt invade their reservation and go bomb ballistic on them...and I'm not saying give the land back....thats not reallity...I'm just saying when u use words like illegal occupation understand that the Jews taking of that Land wasnt legit...fundamentalist of all religons can suck a phat one for all I care...i dont even belive in religon because look at what kinda mind control it has over the weak
 
It's nowhere near that simple OS. Israel retaliated because 100's missles were being launched into their country for many weeks from the Lebanese side. The recent attack on Israeli troops killed 8 and now have 2 hostage. In lieu of these escalating attacks, Israel chose to shutdown key parts of the Lebanese govt and infrastructure since it would not take steps to reign in the Hezbellah factions that were performing these attacks.

An analogy would be if the US govt did nothing while American militias attack towns in Mexico and hid on the US side. The Mexican govt would have no choice but to force the US govt to address the issue..diplomatically or otherwise. Since the Lebanese refused to stop Hezbollah....

As far as LA or NY times readers drooling on themselves, that comment is so far from reality it barely deserves mention. Their reporting of the current situation is far more comprehensive than anything else out there save for high quality periodicals like The Economist. As a moderate, I find the far right's characterizations of those they do not agree with drawing ever closer to character assasination. That is a sure sign of a weak argument presented by someone who is frustrated at being in the angry minority.

Attack the argument without attacking the person/group and you may actually press home a point.
 
oswizzle said:
Hey bro if the Indians from some tribe killed some Sheriffs or whatever we wouldnt invade their reservation and go bomb ballistic on them
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When you say bomb ballistic I am going to just guess you are meaning bombing them. You are right. You are wrong if you don't think we wouldn't go and get them.

Listen I don't want to argue over something that I will admit to not being as knowledgable as you maybe are or someone else for that matter. I can say this from experience. Some bad people only understand being meet with overwhelming force. I don't see peace ever existing in this area as long as the terrorist (Hezbollah) who are hid by governments that would like to see Israel and us fall aren’t beat down to submission. I would love to see all of them live together excepting their differences and not fighting but I just don't think it will happen.

I’m not a war monger; I think I’m a realist. I desire peace. I am a vet and have been to the Middle East. I think it’s those who have to fight and are looked at as the promoters of war are actually those that desire peace the most.

OS this is not an attack on you I know that you never mentioned anything about the military.
 
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"I’m not a war monger; I think I’m a realist. I desire peace. I am a vet and have been to the Middle East. I think it’s those who have to fight and are looked at as the promoters of war are actually those that desire peace the most."

I view vets like yourself as having seen enough of war to never want or wish it upon themselves or others again. Thank you for your service and may you never have to see another battle if you do not wish to.

As to the Indian example..well, we would directly and indirectly go after the offending parties with or without the Tribe's assistance/permission. The tribes are only granted so much leeway under the so-called "tribal autonomy" as we pay the bills.

Groups like Hezbollah are really, truly, unable to be bartered with. I think we've seen that with Israel's return of some of the occupied areas. When one's idealogies center around 1. being directed by a god and, 2. the pure unadultered hatred of another group of people, then there's really not much to work with.

Israel isn't going to bow out and just move all of it's people to Antarctica. The radical muslims aren't going to just mellow out. Israel has done some pretty deplorable things, but on the whole..considering they have nukes..they have been pretty measured and restrained in their actions.
 
Nukes are barganing chips...no country would actually be stupid enough to set one off...cuz if ur not the U.S or Russia your asking to have ur country wiped off the Map by the rest of the world...regardless if its Israel, North Korea, Iran etc
 
oswizzle, you've got no brain. there is no point arguing with you. you haven't read a damn thing that anybody has posted and actually understood it.

that explains your positions well. it speaks volumes in fact.
 
oswizzle said:
Nukes are barganing chips...no country would actually be stupid enough to set one off...cuz if ur not the U.S or Russia your asking to have ur country wiped off the Map by the rest of the world...regardless if its Israel, North Korea, Iran etc
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Oh...so we should just let everyone have them since they're "bargaining chips" right?

You're a regular genius. The president of Iran has publically stated he'd like to commit genocide on the Israelis, many of whom have absolutely no choice in the location of their land. He said he'd wipe them off the face of the eart.

This movement is led by a fanatical group of people who don't fear death. So, in effect, THEY DON'T FEAR THE RESULTS OF NUCLEAR WAR!

Think before you speak. :frustrate
 
bioman said:
...Groups like Hezbollah are really, truly, unable to be bartered with...
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Hezbollah at its very core is a business. The key people in Hezbollah profit very greatly from running the organization. They profit from controling an area, having access to certain middle east underworld connections and trading in illicit goods/services and weapons. This small group w/in sanctions all sorts of "business" transactions w/ tertiary intelligence groups from all of the western nations as well as with those "well-connected" groups that profit from the black market.

This core controls a large number of members who may be characterized as extremists, fanatical, terroristic and motivated by extreme fundamentalist views. These are the minions, the 99% who do the dirty work for Hezbollah motivated or inflamed by the "preachings" from higher up (from their Establishment).

The core or Establishment that controls Hezbollah does not desire peace nor do they desire a situation that results in complete destruction of their profitable organization. The core will profit financially from this current situation and they will have plenty of "inflamed" fundamentalist joiners to come serve as cannon fodder.

I have had many discussions over the years w/ very, very high placed people in both the intelligence services and their associated tertiary groups. I have witnessed a great many things first-hand as well. Nothing is as it seems on the surface.
 
oswizzle said:
Israel's Govt is whack....so is ours for being the only country in the U.N to veto a resolution that said the Jews were using too much force...so the U.S is saying its ok too attack and kill 60 people so far over 2 soldiers in Lebanon....People in the U.S need to quit watching Fox News and wake up to the fact that our support for Israel is never going to benefit us in anyway...and it just wasnt the British involved in the sending the Jews to Palestine....its our fundamentalist Christian Leaders who believe that the Jews belong in Palestine according to the Bible...So I guess if a Crip or a Blood from Compton kill two Police Officers we'll just send in the U.S Millitary to Bomb the Hood to ruble and ash..
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More baseless leftist garbage.... Go watch a Michael Moore movie, he might provide you with some even more worthless arguments.

Think about this. What if Mexican terrorists came across our border, kidnapped 2 of our military members. What would America do. First we'd ask for cooperation from Mexico in helping to find them. What if Mexico said too bad. Mexico is then as responsible for harboring them. And there is no debate on who's land it is. If that debate is still valid, then America could be considered as rightfully belonging to American Indians. Who does France belone to then, or the rest of Europe.

Its time for the Muslims to move on. Their hateful attitude towards jews is just pathetic. Israel was the site of Jewish holy sites long before the Muslims conquered it. The only reason Islam has holy sites there is because they came and took the land to spite the jews. Their religion has been a doctirine of hated and fascism since Mohammed was a killer. Dont forget Mohammed the great prophet was a brutal murderous genocidal man. And dont get pissed at me for saying this, pick up and Islamic holy book and read for yourself. Its all there.

Iran is behind these attacks on Israel. They knew this was an act of war. They knew Israel would respond as ANY SOVEREIGN NATION WOULD. Its quite pathetic that anyone thinks attacks on Israel are politically justified. Leave the ****ing jews alone, they have like 100 squre miles on this planet to call their home. The muslims can go almost anywhere.
 
meowmeow said:
Actually about 40% of the Lebanese population is Christian.
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Exactly. This is why it really is a tragedy for the Lebonese, they do not (in general or in majority I should say) support the actions of Hezbollah.

I think people should start looking for some lebanese blogs in english so they can see it for themselves. Even Egypt and Saudi Arabia have told Hezbollah "you're in this one alone".
 
Im from an arabic orgin, and i have a family who lives in Lebanon. 56% of Lebanon are christians. they dont want to get in a war with Isreal. Hizballah is simply a small tripe, with strong military power. they simply control the south part of Lebanon. Christian live in the North part. Isreal is hitting the infastructure in the north which doesnt make sense. 2 soldiers are kidnapped, and scores of civilians in Gaza, and Lebanon are dying because of that.

i know many people who are trying to escape from Gaza, and Lebanon but they cant because Isreal bombed all the airports, and transportation routs in that area, Hamas and Hizballah are doing some idiotic action. But the action of Isreal seems to get dummer by time.
 
meowmeow said:
Hezbollah at its very core is a business. The key people in Hezbollah profit very greatly from running the organization. They profit from controling an area, having access to certain middle east underworld connections and trading in illicit goods/services and weapons. This small group w/in sanctions all sorts of "business" transactions w/ tertiary intelligence groups from all of the western nations as well as with those "well-connected" groups that profit from the black market.

This core controls a large number of members who may be characterized as extremists, fanatical, terroristic and motivated by extreme fundamentalist views. These are the minions, the 99% who do the dirty work for Hezbollah motivated or inflamed by the "preachings" from higher up (from their Establishment).

The core or Establishment that controls Hezbollah does not desire peace nor do they desire a situation that results in complete destruction of their profitable organization. The core will profit financially from this current situation and they will have plenty of "inflamed" fundamentalist joiners to come serve as cannon fodder.

I have had many discussions over the years w/ very, very high placed people in both the intelligence services and their associated tertiary groups. I have witnessed a great many things first-hand as well. Nothing is as it seems on the surface.
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Very interesting, Meow.

At heart, I have recognized that most, if not all extremist groups are structured this way. The higher ups are smart people. Smart people do not give themselves over wholly to fanaticism. They certainly may have some zealous views, but they're too smart to waste their life acting on them. They get some dumb kid from a poor village to do that for them. Take him in, fill his head with fire and brimstone and delusions of granduer about inflicting great harm on the enemy, being a martyr bla bla bla.

In reality, the dumb kid goes and splatters his guts at a coffee shop and strenghtens the resolve of the Israelis and gives them carte blanche to do whatever.

The secondary and tertiary interests of these groups is interesting..I never put much thought into it really.

Thank you for sharing that.
 
x_muscle said:
i know many people who are trying to escape from Gaza, and Lebanon but they cant because Isreal bombed all the airports, and transportation routs in that area, Hamas and Hizballah are doing some idiotic action. But the action of Isreal seems to get dummer by time.
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No, its very smart. Unfortunately, it keeps the citizens from escaping, but they're (apparently) looking to destroy hezbollah and that is what it takes considering airports and transportation routes are where hezbollah, et al are getting their supplies. they're trying to choke off the enemy.

i doubt the israelis WANT to make their only "potential" sympathizers in the area (the lebanese christians) hate them, but in this case it may be a necessity. Luckily, as I'm sure you know, the lebanese are placing the blame on hezbollah and may "slightly" understand teh response although harshly disagree with it (of course. Nobody wants their country pummeled).
 
I feel Israel is doign the correct thing by responding with force. It is a very sucessful way at getting the message they arent palying games out. Israel is going about the right strategies of keeping the Hezbollah form escaping by destryoing means of leaving lebanon such as blowign up the bridges and gas to fuel cars or whatever else it is needed for.
 
kwyckemynd00 said:
oswizzle, you've got no brain. there is no point arguing with you. you haven't read a damn thing that anybody has posted and actually understood it.

that explains your positions well. it speaks volumes in fact.
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I never said let any of the loser countries have Nukes...relax on the name callin buddy....I'll say whatever I want...your the one who chooses to respond...dont get all wett over some forum gossip....
 
Its not gossip.

And, sorry I get a little irritated when I read your posts, but your obviously posting on a subject you have very little information education on and condeming two entire nations for their actions.
 
I have many thoughts on this issue, but one thing that stands out is the fact that religion leads to intollerance, irrational logic, and fanaticism. I like what Maynard said about if you don't like the country get the hell out, but maybe it should be applied to Israel or Lebanon. Many of say diplomacy does not work, but the sad thing is war and killing will not work...it will only intensify the feeling toward each other.
 
Spartan117 said:
I have many thoughts on this issue, but one thing that stands out is the fact that religion leads to intollerance, irrational logic, and fanaticism. I like what Maynard said about if you don't like the country get the hell out, but maybe it should be applied to Israel or Lebanon. Many of say diplomacy does not work, but the sad thing is war and killing will not work...it will only intensify the feeling toward each other.
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This is like saying guns kill people, not people.

I'm not religious pretty much at all... you can search my posts and see that :D

But, IMO, its a people problem to the core not a religion problem. People need something to attach to, a belief. Some strong foundation. Depending on the culture, that life foundation they are searchign for is different.

E.G. Christianity during the dark ages was driven by violence in power, very much the opposite of today. What happened? Not the religion...the culture.
 
Kwyck, ur right . What I meant is that the beliefs behind the religion that people feel the need to cling to is what continues to drive the problems. I also think its rediculous for us as a country to sit back and say we support or do not support the actions of those two countries when we have no idea what those people believe. There are not many of us that have been raised under those circumstances that have been developed for 100's of years.
 
bioman said:
The secondary and tertiary interests of these groups is interesting..I never put much thought into it really.
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Robert Baer a retired CIA case officer in the Directorate of Operations from 1976 to 1997, where he served in Middle Eastern countries, including Iraq and Lebanon in an interview for PBS (Invalid Link Removed) had this to say about the structure of Hezbollah:

[EXTRACTED from a longer interview - March 22, 2002]​

And how important [is] Hezbollah? ...

It's extremely important. Hezbollah's divided into many parties. There's the Islamic Resistance in the south, which beat the Israelis. They attacked the Israeli army. They defeated the Israeli army on Lebanese soil. I do not know how we can describe that other than a national liberation movement.

I don't agree that Hezbollah itself is a terrorist organization. It delivers powdered milk; it takes care of people. It's a social organization; it's a political organization. It fights corruption.

Then there's the Islamic Resistance, which is an army, which is a guerrilla force, fighting for control of its own country. And then, under the Hezbollah umbrella, was the Islamic Jihad, which I call their special security, which was controlled by Iran, which carried out terrorism against the West. And you can paint Hezbollah as a terrorist organization. You can do that for political reasons, but strictly speaking, it is many things. Just as [with] the IRA, you got Sinn Fein and you've got the real IRA, which is conducting terrorism.

And is the distinction important?


It's very important.


Why?

Well, I mean if you're going to retaliate against terrorism -- what we call terrorism, [which is] the attacking of innocent people for political motives, not liberating your own country -- we have to distinguish the two groups. Fadlallah is not a terrorist. ... He was a spiritual leader in his organization. ... We can't label him a terrorist and fight Hezbollah as an organization in its entirety. We have to isolate the murderers and fight them.


But when [Hezbollah] was taking American hostages...


It wasn't Hezbollah; it was the Islamic Jihad organization which was taking [hostages]. It was a very distinct organization, which was separate from Hezbollah because you had the consultative council which only had a vague idea of what the hostage-takers were doing. The hostage-takers were taking orders from Iran. Hezbollah itself does not care about American citizens running around Lebanon, as it doesn't care today. I mean, as an ex-CIA officer, I can go see Hezbollah, I can talk to them. They don't care. ...


But explain that there is actually a different management structure here [that] we're talking [about]?


Absolutely. And it's very clear that special security in Hezbollah took its orders for all the important years from the IRGC, the Islamic Revolutionary Guard Corps [in Iran]. Hezbollah itself accepted money and spiritual leadership from Iran, but it had nothing to do with terrorism. Ninety-nine percent of Hezbollah, people in Hezbollah, know nothing about it. They don't have the slightest idea how it works, who's behind it -- the Iranian role. And that nuance, I think, is missed in Washington today.

I think it's a mistake in U.S. foreign policy, first of all, to paint Islam as an enemy, because you get dragged into a cultural war which we can't win. You have to isolate the people who really do sponsor mass murder or kidnappings or individual murders of people, that are killing Americans in Kuwait today, that flew the airplanes in. Those are isolated individuals which don't have anything to do with Islam in general. Same way in Hezbollah. It's a small group of people kidnapping, murdering. But Hezbollah itself is not a terrorist organization.
 
oswizzle said:
"illegal occupation" by the Jews is all of Palestine that they call Israel...the whole piece of land was never the Jews to begin with...
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Never the Jews' to begin with?

Are you serious?

Your credibility is now at ZERO.

This is the land where Jesus was born and lived. What was Jesus called at the time?

The King of the Jews.*

That was Jewish land for thousands of years before they were kicked out by various groups. This was very much their land to begin with.

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*Regardless of your religious beliefs, it is accepted historical fact that a man named Jesus of Nazareth was born, lived, and called the King of the Jews, among other things.
 
Spartan117 said:
Kwyck, ur right . What I meant is that the beliefs behind the religion that people feel the need to cling to is what continues to drive the problems. I also think its rediculous for us as a country to sit back and say we support or do not support the actions of those two countries when we have no idea what those people believe. There are not many of us that have been raised under those circumstances that have been developed for 100's of years.
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No..you didn't read my post correctly. Reread it...if it still doesn't make sense, I"ll try to explain myself more clearly.

Another thing is, I don't understand why people think we have to be sensitive to people of other cultural beliefs. Simple fact of life, and survival. If something is dangerous, its dangerous, regardless of intent or reason.

Do you want to survive? Do you want your grandkids to survive? Who cares what they think, feel, or believe. Lets focus on making this world safe for our relatives. Is this insensitive? yes. But, it is necessary. In fact, the terrorists are doing the exact same thing. They are REALLY doing what they believe is best for "their people". That's the scariest part, they believe wholeheartedly in their actions. It may be a simple disagreement in ideology, but they're willing to kill. And as a result, we must be willing to forget about sensitive and reasonable so that we may survive.

It does not matter to me WHY a person is a serial killer, for example. Nothing can change the fact that they are dangerous. So, regardless of the fact that Mr. A can from Planet B where killing someone is a gift of salvation, its still dangerous regardless of the fact that they're doing it out of kindness. In our society, and with our way of life, its dangerous. and, if we want to continue to live the way we do (or live in general) we have to recognize the danger, forget about the reason, and ensure our survival.
 
I just wish Hezbollah's charter would stop calling for the complete destruction of Israel. Didn't Allah say "Love thy neighbor?" It's true that the kidnappings Hezbollah committed may not have been in the best interest of the Lebanese people, but hey, those Lebanese were responsible for bringing this terrorist group into power. And this whole conflict with Jews on Arab lands, man! What's the value of land these days? Lebanon's just a bunch of mountains. Egypt and Jordan has nothing but desert. Israel's the only cushy place with a great view of the Mediterranean Sea (plus they can actually grow their own food and get some walleye/bass while they're at it). Certainly, isn't food a cause worth fighting for?
 
DazzlinJack said:
...those Lebanese were responsible for bringing this terrorist group into power...
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No not really.

DazzlinJack said:
Lebanon's just a bunch of mountains. Egypt and Jordan has nothing but desert. Israel's the only cushy place with a great view of the Mediterranean Sea (plus they can actually grow their own food and get some walleye/bass while they're at it). Certainly, isn't food a cause worth fighting for?
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Have you been smoking that wacky weed?
 
meowmeow said:
No not really.
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Well, Hezbollah is also a political party that has been elected to seats in their parliament, and the Lebanese government has refused to disarm their armed wing, so they are at least partly responsible.
 
Kwyck, I never said be sensitive to others of different cultural beliefs. My point is its not so simple to sit back and say Israel is right or wrong. There are 100s of years of attitude and belief development that has become an intrinsic part of who these people are. We look at and see someones freedom being taken away. Why do we look at it like that...because we have been raised in a country whose foundation is based on the right to freedom regardless of beliefs. In terms of protecting our way of life that you mention, I'm not really sure I see the connection between us and what is going on in the Middle East. Maybe you can explain that. These types of converstions are difficult to have like this.
 
If you don't understand that Israel is doing what's necessary, then you are either a terrorist sympathizer, or an idiot. They are fighting a war that is not fought the traditional way, where you mass your army on this side and we'll mass ours on the other, and then charge to wards each other and fight till the death. The terrorists don't work that way. They send some ignorant piece of garbage with 50lbs of explosives taped to his worthless body, and he explodes himself in a bus, or a market, or a street corner. Such a huge region with many rich Arab countries, and none of them have the guts to wage a real war against Israel. Hmmmm, I wonder why. This isn't about religion. It's about survival. And just like the US will survive whatever you throw at us, Israel has proved over and over that they will too. How come the so called martyrs are always young stupid boys? You never see a old "wise" man blowing himself up....I don't care where you're from, or what you believe in, live along side me peacefully, or die. Your choice.
 
I would like for you guys to keep an eye on the UN during these times and the continued call from the worlds nations to support them.

The UN really doesnt have to much power yet but I think that this is going to change very shortly.


And honestly It makes me think what kind of actions that a world governing body would empose to try and protect peace???

I can bet some new laws are going to pop up after they do get more power regarding some of the key factors in war......... namely religion
 
Spartan117 said:
In terms of protecting our way of life that you mention, I'm not really sure I see the connection between us and what is going on in the Middle East.
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You mean besides the devastating impact that a loss of oil supply would have on our economy?

And besides the fact that the terrorist groups that aim to hit targets in the US are funded and trained by groups in the Middle East?
 
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