Islamist group set to take over Palestinian gov't
- 01-26-2006, 11:14 AM
Islamist group set to take over Palestinian gov't
Hamas has taken control, via a legal and fair election over the Palestinian government. I think this is actually the best thing to happen to the peace process. The previous governments signature for peace wasn't worth its weight in ink... but hamas always seemed to uphold their promises......
- 01-26-2006, 10:24 PM
I see it as terrible. Hamas is teeming with Iranian influence. Hamas never upheld any promises except terrorist attacks against Israeli civilians and military. Even in their "laws" it states its purpose is for the destruction of Israel.
You can't make peace with something like that. Sharon's government even negotiated with them steadily and even pulled out of some of the territory (forcibly withdrawing its own citizens). Now members of Hamas and other Islamic extremist groups call them "weak".
Maybe Netenyahu was correct. And may whatever "god" these Muslims worship (it certainly isnt MINE, my God doesnt condone violence in His name) have mercy on their souls... because if Netanyahu's government comes back, the chances of Palestine becoming a state will be nearly ZERO.... and they won't be taking **** from Iran.
I really like the Israeli government. Everyone is ex-military. You are required to serve one term at least. It definitely brings a "no bull****" perspective on things. And I will be the first to applaud them if they make a unilateral decision to beat Iran down like a red-headed stepchild.
- 01-26-2006, 10:51 PM
Well, now we know what the palestinian people "really" want. I coulda told you that a long ass time ago, however.
I think this is GREAT. We need RAPID advancement of fundamentalist crazies, we need them taking control of governments, and coordinating more disasterous attacks.
Why you ask? Simple...because there is only barely enough cumulative intestinal fortitude amongst all of our western allies/friends/wimps combined to actually make something happen. And, in order to get our testosterone deprived leaders to act, we need them to be scared ****less.
If this is a long gradual process, I'm positive nothing effective will be done and it will be much more disasterous in the end.
01-26-2006, 11:30 PM
hey bean, just so you know, my God doesn't condone violence either. It's the extremists--thats right, the .001% of the muslims in the world that are ******* extremists that give us a bad name. Please look around and realize that REAL Muslims like myself believe in Peace. We do not condone the violence, and we are victims of terrorism just like you unfortunately.And may whatever "god" these Muslims worship (it certainly isnt MINE, my God doesnt condone violence in His name) have mercy on their souls
We don't consider these extremists to be Muslim. They are part of a cult that THINKS they are a part of Islam.
01-26-2006, 11:31 PM
I agree. I am happy that it is happening honestly; I'm just saying its "terrible" for the current peace processOriginally Posted by kwyckemynd00
01-26-2006, 11:33 PM
Oh I definitely know this and I do agree I mean "these Muslims" as the extremists that run around making claims how they can be martyrs by killing themselves and innocents along with them.Originally Posted by cable626
I know quite a few Muslims of the more normal variety. And they are honest, hardworking, and good natured people.
01-26-2006, 11:54 PM
Gosh, that .001% of Muslims that are ashhole extremists and "misunderstand Islam" must be pretty shrewd to convince 60% of Palestinians to vote for Islamist terror group Hamas. That "tiny minority of extremists" just keeps getting bigger and bigger!
for more info go to jihadwatch.org
Originally Posted by cable626
01-27-2006, 01:15 AM
Sounds like someone hasn't read their Koran. Doesn't condone violence? Please, the religion is based on conquest. Basic fundamental of Islam: convert, become a second class citizen, or die. Not saying that all Muslims believe this. There are many Christians and Jews that don't know crap about the tenents of their religion either. Doesn't mean that the God of the Bible doesn't condone violence just because someone doesn't believe it. Anyone remember what God told Saul to do to the Amalekites?Originally Posted by cable626
01-27-2006, 02:05 AM
Bump...exactly!Originally Posted by spitboy2000
Not to say muslims are inherently violent, but you can't say its a vast minority of muslims because entire muslim populations are voting in terrorist organizations.
People seem to forget the videos of endless streets full of middle-eastern muslims dancing in the street after 9/11 handing out freggin' candy. I'll NEVER forget that, and I'll NEVER forget when an entire Mexican stadium was chanting Osama Bin Ladens' name after our team beat theirs in a game of soccer. Those are two things I'll never forget.
01-27-2006, 02:20 AM
While I can't comment on specifics of Islam. I can with your other comment. God of the OLD TESTAMENT told Saul to "take care" of the Amalekites. Have you read the book? I've read the entire thing in my youth several times. I'm no biblical scholar either, but I do know God of the NEW TESTAMENT, which is the fundamentals on which Christianity is based, doesnt condone violence at all.Originally Posted by bpmartyr
I think there is a large amount of anti-Western Muslims out there. But I also believe the media that displays them dancing in the street is also selectively showing them to the world.
On the other hand, the problem I have with Islam currently, is that it has never condemned the misinformed education that the Muslim Clerics are bringing to each generation. Once you add a couple generations of problems in there, it gets REALLY bad.
01-27-2006, 02:36 AM
Why is it "selective" to show the Palestinians and other Muslims dancing in the streets after 9/11? What other people were dancing in the streets after such a terrorist attack? Why in the world wouldn't you show Muslims dancing in the street while the rest of the world grieves? Why in the world would you try to hide the truth -- that many Muslims felt joy on that terrible day?
photos are here
By the way, where are this mythic "vast majority" of peaceful Muslims? If there are so many of these peaceful Muslims why do they not throw the "tiny minority of extremists" out of the mosques?
01-27-2006, 03:04 AM
wow this thread got crazy real quick. The peaceful Muslims? Lets start with the 12 million that live in the US.Originally Posted by spitboy2000
01-27-2006, 03:10 AM
Thats the MAIN problem right now, we need to get them out of here. Every real muslim website will take a "no tolerance" position to terrorism.On the other hand, the problem I have with Islam currently, is that it has never condemned the misinformed education that the Muslim Clerics are bringing to each generation. Once you add a couple generations of problems in there, it gets REALLY bad.
The main point of that website is:
There is no room for terrorism in the modern world and the United States should take a no-tolerance stance on terrorism in order to avoid another tragedy, along the lines of 9-11.
No holy war [jihad] needs to be waged; there is no clear and present threat to Islam; the only war that needs to be waged in the modern world is one against terrorists and extremists.
01-27-2006, 03:27 AM
Maybe Islam 1400 years ago.Basic fundamental of Islam: convert, become a second class citizen, or die. Not saying that all Muslims believe this.
And yes, I do agree that I don't know everything, but I am trying to lead a holy life so I try to learn as much as I can and take classes in school. I'm only 19, and don't know as much as I would like to. I appreciate everyone's input, and I hope there are no hard feelings.
01-27-2006, 03:43 AM
I don't even know where to begin with this one. There are muslims (abroad) that hate America, but I don't even know why.Originally Posted by spitboy2000
If SOMEONE does, please tell me. All I can think of is jealousy...maybe.
That doesn't mean that they are extremists though. Many Americans would be cheering if North Korea blew itself up, does that make me or you an American extremist?
(that seems like a stupid point, I dont really know where I'm going with that one...it's late)
01-27-2006, 12:31 PM
Cable is correct with the north korea comment
.. there are millions of muslims that are just as muslim as most catholics are in the US..( figure it out if you dont know what i am talking about)
I do have to say that some non-westernized muslims have evolved into these islamist psudo- hilter like societies that unfortunatly puts mud on real muslim faces. You dont hear anything about the true muslims because they dont do anything outragious to be picked up by media. Its like at work.. you get yelled at for making a mistake, but when you do 89348294 things good.. no one says crap.
yes a majority of people voted hamas in power.. BUT look out for a civil war.. though the other party also does not recognize israel either, they are more muslim than hamas. For israel this is the best thing to have happen. They can either sit back and watch everyone blow themselves up.. then roll in and clean up and give them less than what they had... or they can join the side against Hamas, forming a light bond with them, which will then help form a better peace... either way.. peace comes from victory NOT through talking
01-27-2006, 12:45 PM
I couldn't agree with you more. Hamas taking control just set the peace process back to zero.Originally Posted by Bean
01-27-2006, 01:06 PM
If you truely feel that way, that's great. I'm Jewish, and even though I've had many Arab friends, they have all been Christians. I have never met a Muslim that felt the way you say you do. I forsee a very violent future for the Palestinians now that Hamas has gained control.Originally Posted by cable626
01-27-2006, 01:16 PM
So you're saying it isn't possible to have "peace talks" work? The only way there will be peace is through a victory? If that's the case, Israel will kill many Muslim's, and that is truely a shame. I'm sure there will be many Israeli's (mostly civilians, as that is the terrorists preffered method of attack) die also. It's really too bad that people can't get along with each other. Life is so short, and there are so many things to enjoy. There isn't a child born in this world that hates somebody. That is something that is taught by their parents.Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
01-27-2006, 01:19 PM
damnit I would rather go to the gym than worry about whether my land was gonna be called Land A or Land B.
01-27-2006, 01:25 PM
So do I unfortunately.I forsee a very violent future for the Palestinians now that Hamas has gained control.
You've never met a Muslim thats denounced the 9/11 attacks!? Do you live with Al-Qaeda?!I'm Jewish, and even though I've had many Arab friends, they have all been Christians. I have never met a Muslim that felt the way you say you do.
Last edited by cable626; 01-27-2006 at 01:59 PM. Reason: bad vocab lol
01-27-2006, 01:41 PM
I don't think so...but terrorists can be very sly. Seriously, I have not met any really. And I haven't heard of any denouncing 9/11.Originally Posted by cable626
01-27-2006, 02:53 PM
There are many Muslims that have denounced the 9/11 attacks. I think the problem for me is that there seems to be no organized movement against terrorism in the Muslim world. The Muslims throughout the world can get tens of thousands of people on the street to protest reports of "koran abuse" or Danish cartoons making fun of Mohammed. But where have they been in the last 4 years while thousands of people have died from Muslim terror? I don't see them out. I know if a Christian sect started killing innocents in the name of Jesus Christ, there'd be hell to pay and people would disassociate themselves from them.
You also have to watch out for the "buts" -- Of course we denounce all forms of terror, but you must understand Muslim grievances, colonialism, Israel, falafel prices, etc.... With muslims like with girls, always look out for the But!
01-27-2006, 03:12 PM
So many people show up (a few thousand) in the summer for the Pakistani "feast" where they serve food and have music. I wish I would've taken some video--there are always people denouncing terrorism when they give speeches. People cheer and celebrate, but the media doesn't take video of that. Hmm I'm going to have to see if I can get ahold of some video of that or maybe we'll just have to wait till this summer and I'll videotape it myself.
I've been meaning to talk to my mother about something. I need to talk to some people, see if I can organize a "Muslims against Terrorism" march in Brooklyn...
There are so many organizations that my family is a part of, like south asian womens rights stuff, and my mother is on the board of Directors. My stepdad also knows a LOT of Muslims from all different communitites. I can easily contact every Muslim club from every college in the area.
If anyone has any ideas that might be able to help me begin, please share.
I've never been to a rally like this, so I don't even know where to begin.
I DEFINITELY know I can make this happen, because of the connections in my area. My grandfather built the first and biggest mosque in brooklyn, I wish he was still around, he would definitely help me out with this.
I will probably start my own thread and give you guys a link. I need to speak to some people first.
01-27-2006, 03:55 PM
yes.. peace comes from action, not from the table... talks have never been good enough to keep either sides happy. yes it is a shame people cannot get along, but thats just it, its a shame. But there is no way to reason with suicide bombers, they were made out of generations of hoplesness.
The best way that Israel can get away with cleaning out any terrorists in their country and in Palastine and save "face" is if there is a civil war.
The principles of the Hamas are stated in their Covenant or Charter, Following are highlights.
"Israel will exist and will continue to exist until Islam will obliterate it, just as it obliterated others before it."
"The Islamic Resistance Movement believes that the land of Palestine is an Islamic Waqf consecrated for future Moslem generations until Judgement Day. It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. "
"There is no solution for the Palestinian question except through Jihad. Initiatives, proposals and international conferences are all a waste of time and vain endeavors."
"After Palestine, the Zionists aspire to expand from the Nile to the Euphrates. When they will have digested the region they overtook, they will aspire to further expansion, and so on. Their plan is embodied in the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion", and their present conduct is the best proof of what we are saying."
you cant talk through things with people that hold that attitude....here is the whole thing.. scroll down the page
01-27-2006, 04:02 PM
01-27-2006, 04:23 PM
So if all of that is true, how can one claim to be a Muslim, and believe in peace when the Koran and everything about the Islamic way is centered around violence and destroying anyone that is not one of them?Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
01-27-2006, 04:34 PM
no it really isn't.. see.. we have the same sort of people here in the US.. they are hyper christian and stock pile guns and other goods, live in compounds and wait for christ to come back... The US is too secular to ever allow these people to have any sort of say in national policy...
Here we have Islomists who turn the Koran to have it meet their wishes, as well as take it too much to directly.
Christianity holds some of the same problems. If you are a catholic, it is your duty to go out and convert others, at one point it was your duty to kill them if they did not convert. I would say 99.9999999999% of catholics do not even come close to even trying to convert anyone let alone kill them... mostly because western world has been secular for so much longer than the Muslim world
Also.. this is not a muslim Covenant its Hamas only.. and Hamas is a Islamist-hitleresque like splinter sect of Islam... Unfortunatly.. its is more outspoken right now and getting all the attention.
01-27-2006, 04:42 PM
I guess I'm glad I march to my own drummer so to speak. I'm ex-military, current law enforcement, and I would never hurt anyone for what they believe. Only for what they do.
Why can't we all just lift heavy and get along...
01-27-2006, 05:25 PM
Untill America realizes sticking its neck in affairs that dont concern us can only be bad...
Vietnam wasnt enough I guess.
01-27-2006, 05:27 PM
I don't see why this is a big shock to everyone. Ever since Arafat died I think that all signs pointed towards Hamas gaining more power.
It will be interesting to see what unfolds in these next couple years. In my opinion this is going to escalate violence towards western countries even more. The U.S. will continue with its fervent support of Israel, and with a new more militant group in charge of Palestine, I think we can expect extremism and terrorist attacks to rise.
01-27-2006, 05:30 PM
Because if America was to sit by and let every little country be taken over by communism, eventually we would be the only Democratic country around and the next big war would be fought on our soil. Keeping things in check is every super powers responsibility.Originally Posted by spatch
01-27-2006, 05:35 PM
I would really like to see this happen. I think you have a very good attitude and it is a shame that someone like you is not leading the Palestinians, and the rest of the Middle Eastern countries. Everyone has a right to their heritage and their own beliefs, so long as it does not interfere with others. That's what makes things interesting.Originally Posted by cable626
01-27-2006, 05:51 PM
Well I don't think I'm anywhere NEAR qualified to run a country...I barely keep my laundry in check.
But this is something that I've spoken about before here, and I would really like to see Muslim Adults come out and show America that we support them. Because we do!
01-28-2006, 04:08 AM
01-28-2006, 04:13 AM
Vietnam was COMPLETELY different than this middle-eastern issue.Originally Posted by spatch
Learn your history. Vietnam was NO threat, whatsoever, to us. It was basically, the US helping the french keep a territory so that france would back the US in the anti USSR communist movement, and we inhereted the issue. Vietnam was not a danger to us, and many middle eastern countries ARE IN FACT a danger to us, whether or not YOU realize it. Case in point, Palestianians elect a terrorist organization to run their country.
edit: And BTW, we DID sit our asses out (as did the entire League of Nations) when Imperial Japan, Nazi Germany, and Italy under Moussolini grew into major problems. Remember what happened? Now, these aren't YET military powers we're facing right now, but, as you see, the terrorists are gaining power in the STATE!
01-28-2006, 01:13 PM
10 bucks says Hamas cannot stay in power due to lack of funds. Israel gave almost all the money that kept that state afloat... they wont be giving it anymore...
01-28-2006, 01:30 PM
I too beleive it will lead to escalated violence, not sure about world involvement. I think the next 2 years would be crucial.
01-28-2006, 01:45 PM
I have to agree. I know they are publicly denouncing it. But the biased media doesnt show that. They want something outrageous that will make people watch. Which usually implies a very negative light on a subject.Originally Posted by cable626
But my problem, as stated before, is still as a WHOLE; the Muslim world hasnt publicly denounced it. If they had, I'm sure there'd have been something on Fox about it
Thanks cable, for keeping it all civil. Many people need reminders on who we are fighting. We arent fighting a religion, which the media dogma hashed out day by day seems to imply, but militant fundamentalism instead. Its nice to have someone let everyone know that Islam is not all made of people like this.
01-28-2006, 05:34 PM
Things to understand about Palestinian "politics"
Hamas is much more than a terrorist organization. The Hamas party is in some ways like the Dem or Rep party..a big tent covering lots of different special interests. Hamas also has many humanitarian wings kind of like the Red Cross that do what they can for the Palestinian people. The most vocal, sensational and thus reported on part of Hamas is the terror/militant wing and these guys are bad news.
The rise to power by Hamas, IMO, is largely attributal to the total ineffectual leadership put forth by the former party in charge. This party was less militant, more willing to work with Isreal and compromise. Unfortunately, every time they did compromise and take a step towards peace, Hamas or other militants would step in and ruin thigns by attacking the Isrealis. Since the Palestinian authority is severely lacking in any real control of it's populace due to lack of real government and the funds to do so, it was largely up to the Isrealis to deal with the perpetrators...and we all see that on TV with **** gettin blo'ed up by Isreali choppers.
So Hamas has meddled in affairs long enough to gain itself some legitimate power. This could have lots of negative effects on the region, mostly for the Palestinian people IMO. The upswing is that you now have what used to be a shadowey group of terrorists that were hard to track down and deal with now sitting in govt offices.
IMO, Hamas will either tone down it's rhetoric or it will be waxed by Isreal. The Isrealis will not fool around with Hamas when they also have Iran rattling sabers at them right now.
As to Muslims not denouncig terrorists "enough", well I do think it is going on and we don't see it much because it's not sensational enough. It doesn't bleed so it doesn't lead. I've read a few essays by Muslim scholars denouncing terrorism and I have to say it takes some balls to be the first to speak out and get a fatwah put on your head. Many of these scholars remember what happened to Salmon Rushdie quite well.
Remember, there are over 1 BILLION Muslims in the world today. If even only 1% of them were radical extremists we'd be having considerably more problems than we are right now.
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