Not really politics, but Evolution... (cont. a thread)

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    I dont even care to keep argueing with you guys.
    I knew this thread would go no where. I'm out.
    -peace, Whiskey

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    Sorry Whiskeysteve I thought this was a discussion not an arguement. I respect your ideas. Getting others points of view helps us gain knowledge. Actually this thread did go somewhere!
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    Yes it did for quite some time. Discussing and understanding anothers beliefs, ideas and concepts will not shake the foundation of yours if you are well rooted in them and it is bearing fruit.

    "Love one another"
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    Quote Originally Posted by B5150
    "Love one another"


    Philippians
    2:14 Do all things without murmurings and disputings:
    2:15 That ye may be blameless and harmless, the sons of God, without rebuke, in the midst of a crooked and perverse nation, among whom ye shine as lights in the world;
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    You didn't shake me at all.... made me stonger if anything
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    This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    If it is so wrong then by all means, post evidence
    No, but thanks, I've posted it before and got insulted by other members here. All I can say is I'm a person who won't believe anything untill I feel, see or experience it myself. And untill year ago I was atheist and believed in evolution as well, but I was proved wrong.
    I'm not gonna change your mind any way and you won't change mine. So lets leave it at that.
    I'm going to be more carefull about posting this kind of stuff. Nothing against you, Null, I hope you understand.

    P.S. One day we all find out THE TRUTH
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    P.S. One day we all find out THE TRUTH
    Ironically if my beliefs are correct then no one will ever find out "the truth."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    Ironically if my beliefs are correct then no one will ever find out "the truth."
    I think that would be more "coincidentally" or perhaps "conversely". It would not be ironic because If your beliefs are correct, then they would be true. So at the point your beliefs are determined to be correct someone (you) would learn the truth(that your beliefs are correct). when two events take place at the same time( but can occur mutually exclusive of eachother ) they are coincidental.

    Conversely, the fact that your beliefs both prove to be correct( true ) and disprove their antithesis ( that the truth cannot be found ) they ( your beliefs) are in fact illogical.(and thereby not true )

    The fact that it is the contradictorial nature of your beliefs that make them true is ironic....so aaah yeah, I guess you were right. wow I can't believe that I typed all this trying to find the truth about your irony, though the fact that I found the truth to be you were being ironic is actually ironic....woah!
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    I didn't understand one word you just said, but I totally agree with you, I think. LOL
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    I hate to bring this thread back up, but.....

    some Christians say that evolution does necessarily go against Christianity.
    well in this path of thought i just had, yes it does.

    Adam was the first man.
    If Adam had evolved from or with some ape like creatures then there would be numerous "first men".
    Adam could not be the only man.

    A monkey or ape like creature cannot give birth to a man. So a whole population of ape like creatures would have to evolve into men at the same time Adam would. So because the Bible specifically states that Adam was the first man, evolution is not in congruence with Christianity.
    (and of course i will label this post "in my opinion" so people don't have a fit)
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    Quote Originally Posted by g4ud1n
    Evolution makes more sense to me than believing words from a book that stories are only a few thousand years old.

    "I asked him to explain how a giraffe's neck evolved, he said it used to be more like a horse but had to keep stretching its neck to get food, and over time this lead to it having a long neck." This kind of nonsense is what the general population believes.
    Your quote is a bad example of your point. That quote is actually part of the explanation for the idea of "Acquired Characteristics" and was created by one of the forefathers of evolution: Jean-Baptiste Lamarck. Also, the general pop. did not believe Lamarcks theories. Hell, at the time you could be be-headed for raising "evolutionary propaganda".

    But we all know that acquired characteristics cannot be passed on. However, if there existed an environmental pressure that favored giraffes with slightly longer necks... over a long period of time, the necks would lengthen and lengthen since it will be those with the longest necks that are the most fit for reproduction. This is also known as Natural Selection.

    Remember folks, there were many evolutionists before Darwin and many were Christian or Catholic (Darwin included).
    Last edited by Aeternitatis; 02-10-2006 at 08:02 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    I hate to bring this thread back up, but.....

    some Christians say that evolution does necessarily go against Christianity.
    well in this path of thought i just had, yes it does.

    Adam was the first man.
    If Adam had evolved from or with some ape like creatures then there would be numerous "first men".
    Adam could not be the only man.

    A monkey or ape like creature cannot give birth to a man. So a whole population of ape like creatures would have to evolve into men at the same time Adam would. So because the Bible specifically states that Adam was the first man, evolution is not in congruence with Christianity.
    (and of course i will label this post "in my opinion" so people don't have a fit)
    Yes, but when it comes to the Bible, there is the literalist school of thought and the methaphorical school of thought.

    In any case, you can ask just about any Bible scholar and he will tell you that the Bible comprises just one "age" of the Earth. Exactly how long an age is, I don't know. But it is logical to assume that the age the Bible takes into account is the age of man.

    I personally think that two main purposes of the Bible are of teaching a literal historical record as well as ways to lead a more satisfying life. Much of the Bible is a parable thus must be read like a parable. For example, in Genesis, it speaks of God separating the waters from the waters. But you gotta ask: just what does that mean in context to the rest of what is happening? Well, it could refer to oceans of water... but I doubt it. I think it refers to people and ancient migrations. In fact, if you have the original Hebrew version and you look up the Hebrew words as well as the English words in a good dictionary, you can verify this idea of "the waters" representing people.
    Last edited by Aeternitatis; 02-10-2006 at 08:10 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DmitryWI
    No, but thanks, I've posted it before and got insulted by other members here. All I can say is I'm a person who won't believe anything untill I feel, see or experience it myself. And untill year ago I was atheist and believed in evolution as well, but I was proved wrong.
    I'm not gonna change your mind any way and you won't change mine. So lets leave it at that.
    I'm going to be more carefull about posting this kind of stuff. Nothing against you, Null, I hope you understand.

    P.S. One day we all find out THE TRUTH
    You know what's funny? Until about 6 months ago, I did not believe in evolution. But then I started studying microbiology and genetics within an anthropological context. And you know what? The proof for evolution is easily observed when you know how to do it. Just as God is easily observed when you know how to do it.
    Last edited by Aeternitatis; 02-10-2006 at 08:09 AM.
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    My overall opinion on this sensitive matter:

    I could not ever believe God (whatever it is) to be so cruel as to not give us the ability to evolve. In my experience and in my studies, God is real. So too for evolution. Religion is the middle-man that ruins it all whether that religion be Catholic, Buddhist, or Science. The main reason the Church denied evolution in the beginning was because it meant people were all equal, no longer could a caste system maintain itself if anyone had the people to "move up". When people align themselves in full trust to a doctrine of belief that was interpeted by another individual, they cut themselves short. I also think they fall short of God's expectations. We were given the power to think and REALIZE for ourselves. Religion is a creation of man; more specifically, of man's greed.

    I think Jesus was a person who was inspired by God (on a metaphysical level) to be more "evolved". But the misguided look at him in some singularity. Let me tell you: there was never meant to be only one. Jesus, and what he represented, is like an example of the highest aspiration a human could ever strive to attain. Jesus was a bodhisattva, he was in touch with Void, he was enlightened. We could all hope to be so evolved someday.

    I was raised in a Christian way by my father. I was raised in a spiritualist (non-religion oriented) way by my mother. My brother and sister, both 10 years older than myself and who had a heavy hand in raising me, were very attune to matters of science and art. Lucky for me to be set in such a thought provoking environment, I inherited the freedom of thought. My ideas have developed and changed through years of study, first-hand experience, as well as callaboration with those who came before me. That is what I call the path to truth.

    *Stepping down from podium*

    Now I'm gonna go say hello to a packet of yeast knowing that we share certain identical gene sequences and if his coding for reproduction should go awry, mine can be inserted in place and the yeast will replicate perfectly.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bean
    IHave you had geometry before, I know you have. For something to become NOT a theory; it must become a LAW. A LAW is a empirically and mathematically proven event or particular in nature or physics or whatever. Law of Gravity, Laws of Thermodynamics, Newtonian Laws, etc. Evolution is FACT.
    Sorry to say this, but evolution is still "just" a theory.

    But for anyone who understands the scientific method, to become a theory is actually quite tough.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    I hate to bring this thread back up, but.....

    some Christians say that evolution does necessarily go against Christianity.
    well in this path of thought i just had, yes it does.
    Evolution goes against the Bible, which is not necessarily the same as going against all forms of Christianity.
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    Matter, thought and science


    It has been proven beyond any doubt whatsoever that matter is a 12-dimensional phenomenon. There is still argument among quantum physicists as to wether it's 11-dimensional or 12-dimensional, but let's leave that aside as a detail for now.

    We as humans see only 3 dimensions. Height, Width and Depth. That's it. Changes in these 3 dimensions is represented as a false 4 th axis, which we call "time". It is also proven by physics that time doesn't exist. So basically, matter and all of reality as we see them is an outright illusion. The Masters of long ago said it often: this world is illusion.

    What this means is that any observation of anything from a 3-dimensional point of view is in error. When you see only a part of reality, you can interact with it, make theories about it and even have some sort of "science" derived from the consistent observation of a part of reality. But then again, this science is bound to be limited and undergo a perpetual combat against new questions that are simply the effect of the multidimensionality of the phenomenon being observed.

    As such, the point of view with which we observe the universe is somewhat inverted in that human reasoning tries to encompass 12-dimensional phenomena by observing only a 3-dimensional subset of the phenomena. What is life? What is thought? Consciousness? Emotion? Is there a god? The answer to these questions will all be easily attainable by a mind that can encompass the whole 12-dimensional phenomena that is matter/energy/the universe. Until humanity evolves to such consciousness, the current state of affairs whereby a solution creates more problems will continue. As such, this is the unavoidable evolutionary future of mankind.

    And because time doesn't exist, evolution isn't really evolution. Because time doesn't exist, evolution simply CANNOT be a process of random mutation, trial and error, etc. There is much more order to it than that. There are organizational forces at work along the axis of what we call "time" that we simply cannot understand but are nonetheless absolutely real, as proven by pure science. This means that there is a balance between "now" and "then" that we cannot understand but is ruled by laws every bit as real as the currently recognized laws of physics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Aeternitatis
    I personally think that two main purposes of the Bible are of teaching a literal historical record as well as ways to lead a more satisfying life. Much of the Bible is a parable thus must be read like a parable. For example, in Genesis, it speaks of God separating the waters from the waters. But you gotta ask: just what does that mean in context to the rest of what is happening? Well, it could refer to oceans of water... but I doubt it. I think it refers to people and ancient migrations. In fact, if you have the original Hebrew version and you look up the Hebrew words as well as the English words in a good dictionary, you can verify this idea of "the waters" representing people.
    Good post.

    I have been looking up a lot of words as I read the Bible and often enough they will mean something you didn't expect...
    (though im not sure im with you on the waters thing)
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    Re: Matter, thought and science


    Quote Originally Posted by Grunt76
    It has been proven beyond any doubt whatsoever that matter is a 12-dimensional phenomenon. There is still argument among quantum physicists as to wether it's 11-dimensional or 12-dimensional, but let's leave that aside as a detail for now.
    It hasn't been proven. That's one of the predictions of string/M theory, but it's been untestable so far because of the energy levels we'd need to probe to see if it's true. Loop Quantum Gravity is another contender for assimilation of gravity into quantumn theory and doesn't require the extra dimensions, just discrete space-time as opposed to continuous. It'll also likely be testable by 2007-2008. Holographic theory also says, well I'm not quite sure, but it seems to be saying observed 4 dimensional universe may be an illusion, similar to the way a holograph appears to be three dimensional but is actually two dimensional, and so there may be inumerable multidimensional physics systems. This doesn't mean observed phenomena don't exist, just that they are possibly perceived aspects of some other phenomena.

    We as humans see only 3 dimensions. Height, Width and Depth. That's it. Changes in these 3 dimensions is represented as a false 4 th axis, which we call "time". It is also proven by physics that time doesn't exist. So basically, matter and all of reality as we see them is an outright illusion. The Masters of long ago said it often: this world is illusion.
    Time doesn't exist is a new one on me. It may pass more quickly or slowly under certain circumstances, perhaps even reverse sometimes, but it does exist.

    What this means is that any observation of anything from a 3-dimensional point of view is in error. When you see only a part of reality, you can interact with it, make theories about it and even have some sort of "science" derived from the consistent observation of a part of reality. But then again, this science is bound to be limited and undergo a perpetual combat against new questions that are simply the effect of the multidimensionality of the phenomenon being observed.
    True to the extent that I understand what you're saying. However, lack of knowledge leads to no conclusion in and of itself. That some things are not perceivable currently because of limitations on human senses and limitations on our ability to make instruments that can detect things beyond our sense is a given.

    What is life? What is thought? Consciousness? Emotion? Is there a god? The answer to these questions will all be easily attainable by a mind that can encompass the whole 12-dimensional phenomena that is matter/energy/the universe.
    Not correct. Those are epistemological/philosophical arguments. The ability to perceive the entire physical universe wouldn't make a reductionist point of view impossible or answer the questions surrounding thought, consiousness and the existence of God unless the additional information had a direct bearing on those issues. You're assuming that because certain things are unanswerable now that they will be answerable in the future, that the answer lies where we can't observe yet. It's perfectly possible to reach the absolute limits of our ability to know things about this universe and still not know everything about it, and so still have unanswered questions.
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    Re: Matter, thought and science


    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    Time doesn't exist is a new one on me. It may pass more quickly or slowly under certain circumstances, perhaps even reverse sometimes, but it does exist.
    I'm still kinda neutral on this one.
    In "what the bleep do we know" they say it doesn't. If you go into a coma and later you wake up it seems to you as if no time has passed. But to others it does because their minds have been active and have been shaping thier surrouding universe.And those surrounding you have made the universe follow these supposed laws like time because they have been told that "time" is an unescapable reality.
    And perhaps thier conceptions of time have caused your body to age while you have been out. Or quite possible God has implanted a concept of time in our subconscious mind to keep us from escaping the process of ageing.
    hmmmm
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    It hasn't been proven. That's one of the predictions of string/M theory, but it's been untestable so far because of the energy levels we'd need to probe to see if it's true. Loop Quantum Gravity is another contender for assimilation of gravity into quantumn theory and doesn't require the extra dimensions, just discrete space-time as opposed to continuous. It'll also likely be testable by 2007-2008. Holographic theory also says, well I'm not quite sure, but it seems to be saying observed 4 dimensional universe may be an illusion, similar to the way a holograph appears to be three dimensional but is actually two dimensional, and so there may be inumerable multidimensional physics systems. This doesn't mean observed phenomena don't exist, just that they are possibly perceived aspects of some other phenomena.
    Not for long...

    SLAC Physicists Develop Framework-Dependant Test For Critical String Theory
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    Re: Matter, thought and science


    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    I'm still kinda neutral on this one.
    In "what the bleep do we know" they say it doesn't.
    Yep, and "what the bleep do we know" is a good vulgarization of 20-year-old physics. There's much more than that to current quantum physics knowledge, but it gets very difficult to grasp. Even the specialized, peer-reviewed journals of quantum physics aren't at the forefront of knowledge. There's another frontier that is kept hush-hush. With good reason. A lot of this stuff can be used to make weapons. Big bad weapons.
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    The US has weapons and technology that makes nuclear missles almost seem like childs play....

    Speaking of dimensions ect.... I read (though i dont know how credible) that hitler was dead serious about trying to build a time machine and other devices of a fatasy like nature. Type in "zero point" or "hitlers time machine" in google and you'll get a lot of hits.
    I'm not sure if he was on to something or not; i didn't read long enough. But apparently his scientist thought they were nipping at its heals......and that was quite a while ago.

    We do have anti-gravity technology right now if i'm not mistaken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    The US has weapons and technology that makes nuclear missles almost seem like childs play....

    Speaking of dimensions ect.... I read (though i dont know how credible) that hitler was dead serious about trying to build a time machine and other devices of a fatasy like nature. Type in "zero point" or "hitlers time machine" in google and you'll get a lot of hits.
    I'm not sure if he was on to something or not; i didn't read long enough. But apparently his scientist thought they were nipping at its heals......and that was quite a while ago.

    We do have anti-gravity technology right now if i'm not mistaken.
    I don't think we have anything anti-gravity, yet, I believe we have vacuum chambers, which are basically huge vacuums. (E.G. No atmospheric pressure, which is considerable, we just don't feel it.)
    Last edited by kwyckemynd00; 02-10-2006 at 04:34 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    I don't think we have anything anti-gravity, yet, I believe we have low gravity rooms, which are basically huge vacuums. (E.G. No atmospheric pressure, which is considerable, we just don't feel it.)
    I remember reports that some company was contracted to research anti gravity for the government, but who knows if it came to anything. I'm not sure how a lack of atmospheric pressure would affect gravity. In fact I'm certain it wouldn't, thought it would give an approximation of what it's like to be in space pressure-wise, you'd still be stuck to the ground with the same 1G. For zero G training astronauts are taken onto the Vomit Comet, a plane that dives so they're in free fall conditions for a little bit. Also they're placed in a giant underwater tank to train.

    I also vaguely remember reading about a lessening of the effect of gravity over a spinning superconductor. No idea if it's true or not though.
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    Fascinating thread!! I love discussing these types of topics. Subscribed

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by Nullifidian
    Interesting no doubt. I think the LQG theory will be tested in the same time frame with the 2007 launch of a satelite that can detect light refraction at very small levels, which is one of the predictions of LQG. If the SLAC/CERN test is successful at least it'll give a hint as to whether more dimensions exist.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    I remember reports that some company was contracted to research anti gravity for the government, but who knows if it came to anything. I'm not sure how a lack of atmospheric pressure would affect gravity. In fact I'm certain it wouldn't, thought it would give an approximation of what it's like to be in space pressure-wise, you'd still be stuck to the ground with the same 1G. For zero G training astronauts are taken onto the Vomit Comet, a plane that dives so they're in free fall conditions for a little bit. Also they're placed in a giant underwater tank to train.

    I also vaguely remember reading about a lessening of the effect of gravity over a spinning superconductor. No idea if it's true or not though.
    A vacuumed room would do nothing but kill you.

    what i was talking about is something portable.... (flying saucer type shi)

    and ya i did read that some company recieved some unreal amount of money try to create something like that.

    the spinning superconductor is (as far as i can remember) what hitler was doing. I guess it would spin so fast it would bend reality. I haven't studying much about this so i really only know enough to make a fool out of myself.


    (btw, hitler also rigorously trying to breed humans with various animals to create a worker that was only smart enough to take orders but would have some favorable characterists (lift extreme amounts of weight...high endurance ect...) needless to say it never amounted to anything)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve


    (btw, hitler also rigorously trying to breed humans with various animals to create a worker that was only smart enough to take orders but would have some favorable characterists (lift extreme amounts of weight...high endurance ect...) needless to say it never amounted to anything)
    I wouldn't let Beezle hear ya talkin about him like that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    I remember reports that some company was contracted to research anti gravity for the government, but who knows if it came to anything. I'm not sure how a lack of atmospheric pressure would affect gravity. In fact I'm certain it wouldn't, thought it would give an approximation of what it's like to be in space pressure-wise, you'd still be stuck to the ground with the same 1G.
    Yeah, there will be noticeable effects on how you move and feel, but its not effecting gravity's effect on YOU, that relies entirely on the mass relationship and distance between the centers of mass of two objects.

    The atmosphere is pressing against you at 1KG/cm^2. Imagine moving around without that force working against you.

    He was talking about anti-gravity 'rooms',and they dont' have those. Most people are familiar with the Vomit Comet and underwater training. I remembered some info about training in vacuum's, but I can't much of anything on it. Doesn't really matter though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    The US has weapons and technology that makes nuclear missles almost seem like childs play.

    What's the evidentiary basis for that statement?

    Any one here ever see what they would describe as a UFO? I have. Anyone ever seen the supposedly Space Shuttle videos of craft/lights flying back and forth from the surface and earth orbit? Weird and interesting stuff, but I'm not qualified to properly assess either my sighting or the vids that are out but it does make me go hmmm......
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve
    A vacuumed room would do nothing but kill you.
    Who would go into a vacuum without an oxygen tank and protective gear? lol. That's the only way a vacuum on earth will kill you, unless you're still there when it goes back to its state of equilibrium and if the transition was not regulated. And even then, I don't know if it would kill you...it might, who knows.

    what i was talking about is something portable.... (flying saucer type shi)

    and ya i did read that some company recieved some unreal amount of money try to create something like that.
    Yeah, some russian scientist claimed results--that nobody else has been able to reproduce--of a 2% reduction in gravity. Boeing, NASA, and a ton of other companies are doing research on it right now because even a 2% decrease in gravity would drastically reduce the overall energy required for an airplane or some other airborne vehicle to fly. However, nothing has come of it so far, and things aren't looking too promising.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Drone
    What's the evidentiary basis for that statement?
    I can't say......sorry.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rogue Drone
    What's the evidentiary basis for that statement?
    For as little as $49.95 + Tax & Shipping, you can have the answer, too!



    j/k WS!
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    unless you're still there when it goes back to its state of equilibrium and if the transition was not regulated. And even then, I don't know if it would kill you...it might, who knows.


    (what i was saying though is that a vacuumed environment would have no affect on gravity. All it would do is give you an unnoticably less amount of friction enabling you to move faster..... though youd still move slower than normal because you're in a ****ing space suit.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
    For as little as $49.95 + Tax & Shipping, you can have the answer, too!



    j/k WS!
    sorry to sound so gay but i'm not sure what i can and cannot say......
    so ill just leave it alone... no hints ....no anything
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    Am I correct in assuming Whiskey Steve aka Fox Mulder, that I should never buy a tinfoil hat from a factory because it will be bugged? Can you make me a clean one with your ultra secret super tech Reynold's Wrap?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Whiskey Steve


    (what i was saying though is that a vacuumed environment would have no affect on gravity. All it would do is give you an unnoticably less amount of friction enabling you to move faster..... though youd still move slower than normal because you're in a ****ing space suit.)
    You're in a space suit in underwater training, too...sooo?

    NASA uses vacuum chambers for a reason. They assist in their training. I only brought up vacuum chambers b/c I thought you had them confused with your 'anti gravity room'.

    'Low gravity room' would be a poor choice in words on my part. I know as well as anyone that atmospheric pressure has no major effect on the force of gravity exerted on you by the earth, when isolated to a vacuum chamber.

    Note: Lets not get technical on my 'no major effect on gravity' In short, technically, depending on the contents of the atmosphere more or less materials will either be solid or gaseous, giving you either more or less liquid water, etc. and on top of that, you can 'techincally' include the weight of the atmosphere as a part of the earth system, which means that the collective weight of the atmosphere does effect earths gravity.)
  40. -Dalla Hunga-
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    LOL Fox Mulder

    Whiskey might have a point:

    http://www.futurehorizons.net/laser.htm

    BV
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