girl in my homeroom doesnt stand for pledge
- 10-20-2005, 08:31 AM
- 10-20-2005, 02:18 PM
lost all their money for
Originally Posted by Bean
Why is it that, nowadays, people have been force fed this patriotic bull**** so much that they actually fall for it? Which forefathers are you talking about fighting oppression? Was it the Revolutionary War, where slave-owning plantation owners fought for the freedom of white men from England's oppression? Was it the Civil War, where North fought South over state and property rights and whether it was ok to secede and form another country? Was it World War 1, which we did not belong in and were propagandized into entering? How about World War 2, which FDR maneuvered us into through deception and treason not to promote freedom, but to help Socialist Russia? Korea? Vietnam? Iraq? Which patriotic ideal that you hold dear did these forefathers that you obviously didn't learn about die for? It's like people who wave the Bible and have no clue what it actually says between its covers. Don't defend ideals which you don't even know the origin of.
- 10-20-2005, 02:56 PM
Way i see it is this...
If you march against abortion, you are agains abortion (some choose to skip this step and go straight to bombs, but thats another story)
If you refuse to buy clothes made with child labor, you are agains child labor
If you dont stand for the flag, you are agains AMERICA. Not some aspect of the country you dont like, AMERICA itself. If thats the case, leave. Im sure some 3rd world country would love to have you make clothes for Nike.
10-20-2005, 03:01 PM
10-20-2005, 03:01 PM
10-20-2005, 03:05 PM
Because things aren't always that simple, don't be so quick to judge, don't be so narrow minded! There is a reason why this girl did not stand,you don't know it, your guessing, and more than likely your wrong.
RIP Ryan, :(
10-20-2005, 03:07 PM
America was founded by a bunch of punk-ass whussies who ran away from England b/c they wanted to do their own goddamn thing... The apple doesn't fall far from the tree either, just look at America today.
Having said that, I'm proud to say I'm from America, I'd rather live here than a ****load of other places, that's for sure. And I serve in the military, so I'm not an "America Hater" - I'm just disappointed in the hypocrisy of the World we live in today... Gotta <3 politics
10-20-2005, 03:12 PM
10-20-2005, 03:49 PM
What was immature about the statement davisville made here: girl in my homeroom doesnt stand for pledge ?Originally Posted by toughchick401
There was nothing immature about it. The only exception to the standing for the flag rule I can think of is maybe religious beliefs against idol worship--and I personally still don't see how that would be considered idol worship, but davisville makes a good point.
For all of those people who say they are for America, but against the administration, don't stand for the president...that's fine! But, if you claim you love and respect the USA, stand for the flag.
Nobody should be forced to stand for the flag, of course, but I think its blatantly obvious what is implied when a person refuses to stand for the flag. And no, she shouldn't have had a pen cap thrown at her.
Now, onto the issue of this girl dropping out of school. This is inexcusable, so long as you're physically capable of attending school and mentally capable of learning. If you drop out of school, that's nobody's fault but your own. I can't stand people making excuses for others stupid actions.
I believe your signature is "don't be stupid!!!!", correct? I'd extend that advice to the dumbass girl who makes political statements and then drops out of school.
And, to everyone, please don't bash the guy who says a high school drop out will probably live off of government support (our tax dollars) for the rest of his/her life, because, in all probability...he/she will! Its a statistical fact! When the average high school dropout makes $20k/year, they're going to NEED gov't support. The truth is painfully obvious....painful...that's the issue....people don't like the truth because the truth hurts.
10-20-2005, 03:51 PM
10-20-2005, 03:52 PM
10-20-2005, 04:49 PM
It was a immature comment, you don't know why she didn't stand, perhaps a medical issue, no one knows, so since everyone is so big on saying anything, that's my take, like it or not!!
401 was my dorm number in college,not area code
RIP Ryan, :(
10-20-2005, 05:08 PM
I can appreciate anyones position with a good argument. I'm just curious as to HOW it was immature.
The thing is...I'm sure if it was a "medical condition" like you brought up, it would have been blatantly obvious during the course of the year. If she cannot stand up for the pledge, she probably couldn't walk to and from class. So, if she is walking to and from class, and if she puts herself into and pulls herself out of her chair, I'm sure its not a medical condition.
If it were a medical condition, I"m sure davisville would have know.
I'm not saying he's some kind of authority on civil liberties, I'm just saying given the circumstances, I'm sure his assessment of "her" was right, and that he made a good point when he said that she was most likely seated as a demonstration of her disdain for America.
I am NOT condoning the pen throwing and in the initial post by davisville, he was wrong when he said she should have to stand up. I was just defending that one comment because it seems to me the ONLY argument you had against it was his age, which is a lame excuse for an argument, IMO.
Age has little to do with immaturity, unless we're speaking of the physical kind....And, furthermore, immaturity has little to do with intelligent discussion, and moreso with the lack of ability to partake of that discussion. Davisville doens't have a problem with discussion, and IMO, is a good kid. This shows maturity on my part....not to say I haven't seen posts by him (or anyone, myself included...many times over ) that weren't immature. And, aside from his (usually) high level of maturity for a 17 year old, he also has made some good points in certain situations.
I don't see any reason to invalidate any of his arguments simply because of his age.
IF you have the ability to invalidate one of his arguments, do it the MATURE way--not by using his age to nullify his logic.
10-20-2005, 05:12 PM
WTF is up with the "edit" button!? I can't even fix typos and instanced where i used the wrong word!!!
10-20-2005, 05:13 PM
See...did it again...I need to slow my fingers down....instanced should have been instances, and there were a handful of typos, etc in the other post....*sigh* Oh well...
10-20-2005, 06:47 PM
Our forefathers didn't give respect to the British flag.Originally Posted by granby140
I agree. The age-aphobia (I know thats not the right name) gets too carried away on this board. Don't expect your opinions to be taken seriously until you are 10-15 years older.age has NOTHING to do with maturity. i do not appreciate anyone putting anyone down because of their "age" or lack of. im sure we all know people that are immature at the age of 50, 60, 90, etc.... who are complete idiots.
I respect the flag. I said the Pledge of Allegiance daily and always sang at the National Anthem. I'm proud to live in America but one of the great freedoms about America is that you shouldn't be outcasted for your views (unless they harm others). Thats what this nation was built on. So telling people to get out of the country is a slap in the face to our forefathers. As long as treason isn't committed, they have a right to talk badly against America.
Its very clear this girl has issues (its not a medical reason) but thats her prerogative to sort it out. We've all had times where we're angry at the world and we came to realize the truths of the world, accepted it, and became better people. Telling someone to get out is never going to work out for anyone.
10-20-2005, 08:17 PM
I wonder why is there a debate regarding someone not standing for the National Anthem. It's her god given right not to stand and it's her constitution right not to stand. It's also her damn business not to stand. Why are you all in her business? Do you feed and cloth her? Is she your child? Did I wake up in China, Germany 1938-1945, or Iraq?
Why should people leave America because people like you want them to act a certain way, dress a certain way or look a certain way or even worship a certain way? Who gave you the right to say, who live or stay in America? I think Quickride mention Nazi Germany in his post and your way of thinking fit that era of thinking in Germany. I guess you were a sleep in history class because all this regarding human rights was discuss in your history class. I guess you should change your user name to theâ€?SS" or Nazi Police because those are the people that rounded up all the people that were different or didnâ€™t salute or stand for Hitler or his Anthem.
You may not like what certain people do and that's your right because this is AMERICA and not a country that design their citizen to be robots. You can learn a lot from history and the rights of other people.
Get a life and stop worrying about other people and worry about yourself because life is too short to be worrying about someone else because life is not design to run according to your actions. When you enter the real world, you will find out a lot of people don't think or act like you and your friends.
10-20-2005, 11:49 PM
Agian I dont have to justify my thoughts, age =immaturity most of the time! I will not reply to this again
RIP Ryan, :(
10-21-2005, 04:08 AM
Again, I feel compelled to ask, what America do you believe this is? The one which stands for tolerance and liberty, or the one which can't handle dissent and individuality?
Here is a page of quotes from Veterans including Bob Kerrey on why a Constitutional Amendment banning desecration of the Flag should not be passed: http://www.aclu.org/FreeSpeech/FreeS...?ID=11933&c=50
Here is my favorite response on the page:
As a Vietnam veteran who lives daily with the consequences of my service to my country, and as the son of a WWII combat veteran, and the grandson of a WWI combat veteran, I can attest to the fact that not all veterans indeed perhaps most veterans do not wish to exchange fought-for freedoms for protecting a tangible symbol of these freedoms. I oppose this amendment because it does not support the freedom of expression and the right to dissent.
Now, 31 years, 1 week and one day following the loss of my legs in combat, I am again called upon to defend the freedoms which my sacrifices in combat were said to preserve. It's been a long 31+ years. I have faced the vexing challenge of reconciling myself with the reality of my military history and the lessons I have learned from it and the popular portrayal of veterans as one dimensional patriots, whose patriotism MUST take the form of intolerance, narrow-mindedness, euphemisms, and reductionism-where death in combat is referred to as making the ultimate sacrifice and the motivation for service and the definition of true patriotism is reduced to dedication to a piece of cloth.
The strength of our nation is found in its diversity. This strength was achieved through the exercise of our First Amendment right to freedom of expression-no matter how repugnant or offensive the expression might be. Achieving that strength has not been easy-it's been a struggle, a struggle lived by some very important men in my life and me.
I am offended when I see the flag burned or treated disrespectfully. As offensive and painful as this is, I still believe that those dissenting voices need to be heard. This country is unique and special because the minority, the unpopular, the dissenters and the downtrodden, also have a voice and are allowed to be heard in whatever way they choose to express themselves that does not harm others. The freedom of expression, even when it hurts, is the truest test of our dedication to the belief that we have that right.
Free expression, especially the right to dissent with the policies of the government, is one important element, if not the cornerstone of our form of government that has greatly enhanced its stability, prosperity, and strength of our country.
Freedom is what makes the United States of America strong and great, and freedom, including the right to dissent, is what has kept our democracy going for more than 200 years. And it is freedom that will continue to keep it strong for my children and the children of all the people like my father, late father in law, grandfather, brother, me, and others like us who served honorably and proudly for freedom.
The pride and honor we feel is not in the flag per se. It's in the principles that it stands for and the people who have defended them. My pride and admiration is in our country, its people and its fundamental principles. I am grateful for the many heroes of our country-and especially those in my family. All the sacrifices of those who went before me would be for naught, if an amendment were added to the Constitution that cut back on our First Amendment rights for the first time in the history of our great nation.
I love this country, its people and what it stands for. The last thing I want to give the future generations are fewer rights than I was privileged to have. My family and I served and fought for others to have such freedoms and I am opposed to any actions which would restrict my children and their children from having the same freedoms I enjoy.
-Gary May, who lost both legs to a landmine explosion while serving in Vietnam
Excerpted from testimony given before the Senate Judiciary Committee on April 20, 1999
10-21-2005, 04:25 AM
10-21-2005, 11:11 AM
Brooklyn: I agree completely. I may not like that some people don't agree with me, but I do enjoy the fact that they are able to voice their opinion, even though it may bug the hell outta me.
Last edited by UHCougar05; 10-21-2005 at 11:12 AM. Reason: Grammar is not my strong suit
10-21-2005, 11:24 AM
10-21-2005, 11:50 AM
10-21-2005, 01:31 PM
10-21-2005, 02:03 PM
10-21-2005, 04:41 PM
I guess you actually missed my posts where I at least make an attempt to explain my positions, unlike yourself and someone else.Originally Posted by houseman
10-21-2005, 04:43 PM
Canada is a nice place.....there are just too many damn socialist hippies thereOriginally Posted by natedogg
10-21-2005, 04:58 PM
10-25-2005, 09:14 AM
I'd agree with that.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
Though, can't all be gun totin warmongers. Need some diversity
10-25-2005, 09:26 AM
What specifically are you talking about? Most of my comments have been directed towards the general theme of this thread.Originally Posted by kwyckemynd00
In a lot of males, I think age does equal maturity and this is coming from a male who HAD to, by circumstance, act and be older than I was as a kid and teen.
I'll agree with you that age shouldn't be used to substantiate or disqualify an argument or position. Yet, at the same time, I think some of the comments in this thread have shown people to be very immature and more importantly - grossly ignorant.
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