F**cking Gas Prices

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    Gouging isn't a myth when your government does not allow you to up the cost of something more than once in any given 24 hour period. Maybe a better word can be used then gouging, but it is happening here in NJ usa.

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    For me personally, I hope the price keeps rising. I'm sick of the old bitties in my office setting the thermostat at 100 degrees and still walking around complaining how cold it is in there. Never wanted to smack someone so bad in my life. High oil, gas and energy prices in general might put an end to that at least.
    As sick as it sounds, so do I. Maybe then people will get up the motivation to truly end, or at least significantly reduce our dependency on petroleum for energy. If the government and private industry made it a priority and devoted massive amounts of time and energy toward the task, it would no doubt become a reality.

    Our current primary energy source being outrageously expensive and in short supply is the best way to kick that in motion.

    As for me, next year Ill be tooling around in a french-fry grease powered VW, and as soon as I get a house Ill be making my own E85 for my Hondas. Like CDB said, do what you can to conserve over the long haul, and the tides will turn.

    BV
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    The problem isn't so much supply of oil here as it is refinery capacity. The Gulf Coast is home to a very large percentage of the oil refineries in ths country, and they're shut down. We simply have no way of refining oil at this point, and without refineries up and running, we're not gong to be able to meet demand.

    It's time to start building new refineries. Maybe put them up on closed military bases.

    We also need to streamline our fuel grades. There are over 40 different varieties of fuel grades used in this country, and with each new addition, more money is spent on production.

    That's what's the matter in Atlanta right now. They have this super-exclusive fuel grade set up for its clean burning properties, but it's very expensive to refine, and most of those facilities were in Mississippi and Louisiana. So they're getting screwed through the pooch for their environmental regulations.

    Yeah, alternative energy would be great. I'd love to see farmers pull down some more cash and to be able to keep their farms. I'd love to see supply go domestic and biodiesel to become the norm. But honestly, if we don't start some cominbation of burning more coal, building new refineries and drilling for more oil here in the US, we're screwed.

    As an aside, Bill Forbes set down a fairly convincing argument that the oil bubble would burst within a year. Hope he's right.
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  4. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    Gouging isn't a myth when your government does not allow you to up the cost of something more than once in any given 24 hour period. Maybe a better word can be used then gouging, but it is happening here in NJ usa.
    You're missing the point. Gouging is a myth because people have the right to charge whatever they damn well please for the goods they produce and the services they provide, just as everyone else has the right to buy or not buy. Gouging is an aestetic argument. Oeople don't like the fact that prices can fluctuate, severely sometimes under extraordinary circumstances. Gouging is a myth because people in this country are taught from birth that if some disaster happens and the price of this or that good they deem essential goes up a lot, it's because of the greedy capitalists and not because the supply has been strained at the same time as an increase in immediate demand has gone up. Gouging is merely a rise in prices, a signal sent by the market that a certain goodor service has becomefar more valuable and should be used sparingly. People don't like reality though. Too inconvenient.
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    Rapid, pronounced rises in the price of oil have a tendency to do something strange to the economy. Just keep that in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    The Netherlands, family in Delft and Amsterdamn. Cousins in London, and some aunt in Sweden I haven't seen since I was twelve. but I do remember she was a lawyer or whatever they call them in Sweden, and lived in an apartment, not a home. My father tried to explain to me why at the time, I didn't get it until later.
    you are somewhat right about holland, they are realizing theyre mistakes now BTW, but not about other countries IMO. I have been allover the continent and my sister lives in the netherlands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga

    Any diesel car can be made to run on used vegetable oil, and you can convert vegetable oils to a diesel-like fuel with a few simple chemical reactions.

    BV
    Hey BigVrunga, you got any good links on the vegetable oil and diesels (I'll look around a bit when things slow down a bit)? I currently drive a Jetta Diesel. Love it. It's been good, especially now. I'm in med school, so I wouldn't have tons of tme to brew up my own fuel, but I'm curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    Gouging isn't a myth when your government does not allow you to up the cost of something more than once in any given 24 hour period. Maybe a better word can be used then gouging, but it is happening here in NJ usa.
    Yea maybe profiteering would be better
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    two stations by me just got shut down by the government for "profiteering" they are cracking down... YAY
  10. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by ss01
    Rapid, pronounced rises in the price of oil have a tendency to do something strange to the economy. Just keep that in mind.
    Price controls have a much higher tendency to do strange things to the economy. Rapid, pronounced rises in prices of any commodity are almost always the result of government meddling in the market, and it's pretty strange to think that the people/entity that caused the problem have the know-how on the best way to fix it. Further meddling always makes the problem worse in the long and short term.

    Just keep that in mind.
  11. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEmain
    Yea maybe profiteering would be better
    If these people don't profiteer or gouge you can expect the oil supplies to run dry very quickly and nice little shortage to begin. Hard as it may be to take, a price is just information, nothing more. It's information on the relative value of one good to all other goods. It's a ratio, nothing more. If something is more valuable for at a given point in time it's usually due to an imbalance of supply and demand that the market can't accomodate right away. If the price is not allowed to rise the end result is a shortage of whatever good that is the subject of price controls.

    A couple of good articles, one older but spot on in terms of gouging.

    http://www.mises.org/story/1892

    http://www.cato.org/research/article...en-030401.html
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    Hey BigVrunga, you got any good links on the vegetable oil and diesels (I'll look around a bit when things slow down a bit)? I currently drive a Jetta Diesel. Love it. It's been good, especially now. I'm in med school, so I wouldn't have tons of tme to brew up my own fuel, but I'm curious.
    Sure bro!

    The only book you need to read is:

    Amazon.com: From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank: The Complete Guide to Using Vegetable Oil as an Alternative Fuel: Joshua Tickell, Kaia Tickell, Kaia Roman: Books

    'From the Fryer to the Fuel Tank' by Joshua Tickell.

    The book describes everything you need to sythesize biodiesel, and also how to convert your diesel car to run on straight vegetable oil Even used vegetable oil that and restaurant owner/manager will be happy to let you take for free. Retrofitting would cost ~$800 if you did most of the work yourself.

    I plan in implementing these ideas in my next vehicle, and when I get my own house Ill definitely be setting up my own ethanol still. That is, unless alternative fuel vehicles are quickly becomming reliable, affordable, and the status quo.

    BV
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    Atlanta, and I'll assume the rest of the Southeast, is ~4.5 days away from being completley out of gas, by my estimate. The six high demand stations that I went went by in Marietta today are already dry.

    It's a distribution issue, the pipelines that feed us were at .00 for two days +, and now are running at only 0.38 for lack of power in Mississippi.

    Atlanta's in deep trouble, but , of course, the politicians are sugar coating the situation to prevent the panic buying we saw earlier this week.

    I guess I'm guilty of contributing to the problem, I bought a bladder tank and 40 gals for my Tundra. Tommorow I'll pin some **** filled diapers and a dead squirrel to the top of it as theft camouflage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    If these people don't profiteer or gouge you can expect the oil supplies to run dry very quickly and nice little shortage to begin. Hard as it may be to take, a price is just information, nothing more. It's information on the relative value of one good to all other goods. It's a ratio, nothing more. If something is more valuable for at a given point in time it's usually due to an imbalance of supply and demand that the market can't accomodate right away. If the price is not allowed to rise the end result is a shortage of whatever good that is the subject of price controls.

    A couple of good articles, one older but spot on in terms of gouging.

    http://www.mises.org/story/1892

    http://www.cato.org/research/article...en-030401.html

    I do appreciate your attempt to educate me about economic theory but I have lived too long and seen 2 many bull**** jobs... I do remember the full oil tankers in the Delaware bay during the late 70`s... And I am sure there will be a gas shortage so the price can hit $4.00 a gallon... then drop back to $2.50 and everyone will be so gratefull for cheap gasoline
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    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:40 AM.
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    Good lookin out I would expect nothing less from a company whose NET income from April to June rose by 32%

    Hope you got stock options... I am assuming they do sign your paycheck?
  17. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    I plan in implementing these ideas in my next vehicle, and when I get my own house Ill definitely be setting up my own ethanol still. That is, unless alternative fuel vehicles are quickly becomming reliable, affordable, and the status quo.

    BV
    I like biodiesel. The fact that a byproduct of America's collective fat ass might be a clean, viable alternative fuel source is ****ing hilarious and perfect irony. And a perfect example of how alternatives arise in a free market. Like oil, for a long time no one gave a **** about the left over grease in the french fryer. Now it's starting to become valuable. Guess what? The price will go up if it becomes popular.
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    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:40 AM.
  19. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEmain

    I do appreciate your attempt to educate me about economic theory but I have lived too long and seen 2 many bull**** jobs... I do remember the full oil tankers in the Delaware bay during the late 70`s... And I am sure there will be a gas shortage so the price can hit $4.00 a gallon... then drop back to $2.50 and everyone will be so gratefull for cheap gasoline
    I think you're missing the point. The price should be allowed to go as high as it can to avoid the shortage. And yeah, it may drop back down after the **** storm passes, but the policies that help exacerbate these situations are still there and it won't be long before some new war or some unseen circumstance knocks us into the ****ter again.

    I find it laughable. You look at a roast beef sandwich, and were you to trace the structure of production behind it you'd go back decades, if not further. People mined the metal to make the cutting blades to cut the meat. Someone sewed the aprons the deli personel wore. Someone created the was paper. Someone grew the lettuce, the totmatoes and made the mustard. Someone kept and fed the cow. Someone shipped all this **** around. And all this went on for decades. Decades of investment and work, all by people with nothing but their own self interest in mind. All by people who by and large paid each other for goods and services rendered at prices they all found mutually advantageous. All this interlacing latticework of exchange upon exchange over distance and time, all equilibrated with no one to direct it, no planning board to determine it, no politician passing legislation to make sure that sandwich was there thirty years down the line when someone wanted it. The wonder of the market at work when no one is ****ing it up.

    And yet, in the beginning of the twenty-first century we're facing a possible fuel shortage, and no one thinks to look to the government to blame them for the problem instead of demanding they be savior of the minute once more. The market manages to equilibrate the efforts and resources of millions of people over time and distance to make any and all goods that people demand cheaper and more abundant and varied than before. Yet we're having a gas shortage. I'd sneer at people if I didn't have some humility about the subject because I once thought as they did. You might want, as I did, to pay a little more attention to that economics theory. Because most of it is not theory, it's hard fact learned on the ground. And if you want to know how we can deal with this situation properly rather than just ****ing things up worse than they are, it becomes crucial. I know a ****load of people on thse boards seem to think my ecnomic ideas are wacky and wrong. I hate to break it to you but I wasn't born or raised in the Austrian School. I was raised a nice solid Republican supply sider by my father. I went over to the Austrian School late in my education because one thing stood out about that school of economics more than any other: they had the annoying habit of being right all the time. A claim of distinction no other school of economics can make.
  20. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEmain
    Good lookin out I would expect nothing less from a company whose NET income from April to June rose by 32%
    Good. They're making a profit. People are employed and using themselves productively. I have to do some research and find out just when this became a bad thing in America, and when people were supposed to get up and work and be productive just for the fun of it. Where did that profit come from? Even the most socialist of our economic commentators admits it's not from gas sales even while they're calling the oil companies greedy. The oil industry covers a whole lot more than just those pumps. I believe they've also been trying to expand exploration to other areas in the US, such as ANWR. Gee, a little more geographical differentiation in sourcing and refining might have helped at this point in time. But tree huggers and NIMBY types pretty much killed all chances for that. I'm hoping America will wake up a little because of this, but I doubt it. They'll shuffle the same **** in out of DC until things get real bad. And how bad that will have to be I don't know, but the current situation along the gulf coast might be a prelude.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    I think you're missing the point. The price should be allowed to go as high as it can to avoid the shortage. And yeah, it may drop back down after the **** storm passes, but the policies that help exacerbate these situations are still there and it won't be long before some new war or some unseen circumstance knocks us into the ****ter again.

    I find it laughable. You look at a roast beef sandwich, and were you to trace the structure of production behind it you'd go back decades, if not further. People mined the metal to make the cutting blades to cut the meat. Someone sewed the aprons the deli personel wore. Someone created the was paper. Someone grew the lettuce, the totmatoes and made the mustard. Someone kept and fed the cow. Someone shipped all this **** around. And all this went on for decades. Decades of investment and work, all by people with nothing but their own self interest in mind. All by people who by and large paid each other for goods and services rendered at prices they all found mutually advantageous. All this interlacing latticework of exchange upon exchange over distance and time, all equilibrated with no one to direct it, no planning board to determine it, no politician passing legislation to make sure that sandwich was there thirty years down the line when someone wanted it. The wonder of the market at work when no one is ****ing it up.

    And yet, in the beginning of the twenty-first century we're facing a possible fuel shortage, and no one thinks to look to the government to blame them for the problem instead of demanding they be savior of the minute once more. The market manages to equilibrate the efforts and resources of millions of people over time and distance to make any and all goods that people demand cheaper and more abundant and varied than before. Yet we're having a gas shortage. I'd sneer at people if I didn't have some humility about the subject because I once thought as they did. You might want, as I did, to pay a little more attention to that economics theory. Because most of it is not theory, it's hard fact learned on the ground. And if you want to know how we can deal with this situation properly rather than just ****ing things up worse than they are, it becomes crucial. I know a ****load of people on thse boards seem to think my ecnomic ideas are wacky and wrong. I hate to break it to you but I wasn't born or raised in the Austrian School. I was raised a nice solid Republican supply sider by my father. I went over to the Austrian School late in my education because one thing stood out about that school of economics more than any other: they had the annoying habit of being right all the time. A claim of distinction no other school of economics can make.
    Dude I wouldn`t know the Austrian school from the Austrailian school... what I know is based on living and watching... There is always someone somewhere getting paid in this society and the many signing the check... call me cynical or conspiratorial I refuse to believe anything Big Gov., Big Oil, Big Pharma ect... say
  22. -Dalla Hunga-
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    I like biodiesel. The fact that a byproduct of America's collective fat ass might be a clean, viable alternative fuel source is ****ing hilarious and perfect irony. And a perfect example of how alternatives arise in a free market. Like oil, for a long time no one gave a **** about the left over grease in the french fryer. Now it's starting to become valuable. Guess what? The price will go up if it becomes popular.
    No doubt that it will, and that's about the time Ill be turning on my ethanol still:P
    I wouldnt mind paying $2.00 for a gallon of used fryer oil. Its not polluting the environment, and its not going toward another Bently for some rich America-hating sheik.

    Although Im sure many are starting to think about fuel alternatives, it will take a much higher gas price to actually get the average person motivated to help themselves. Modifying a diesel engine to run on vegetable oil isnt especially complicated, but your average joe shmo who can barely change his oil or fix his brakes isnt going to attempt it.

    Of course, that sets up a niche for a nice buisiness now, doesnt it?

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    Further meddling always makes the problem worse in the long and short term.
    You think the supply is short now...wait and see what happens if the government caps the price of fuel.

    Price caps just don't work.

    As an aside, I'm debating not buying from Amoco again. I just learned that Venezuela's national source of oil comes from there. Not by any stretch of the imagination am I going to support that commie Hugo Chavez, badmouths our nation, and cozies up to Castro and does God what else knows. On the other hand, you buy elsewhere, and you're supporting the Arab leadership. Kind of a lose-lose proposition.

    Oh well...
  24. CSK
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    The 2005 Honda Civic HX isn't even a hybrid and gets 44 MPG (and Honda says the 2006 should get ~6 or so more miles to the gallon).
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    Mtruther - Amoco is owned by BP.

    I think you are referring to Citgo. They are owned by the Venezualean national oil company.
  26. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by EEmain
    Dude I wouldn`t know the Austrian school from the Austrailian school... what I know is based on living and watching... There is always someone somewhere getting paid in this society and the many signing the check... call me cynical or conspiratorial I refuse to believe anything Big Gov., Big Oil, Big Pharma ect... say
    Cynical is good. However, grant the fact that someone in charge of this company or that might be the greediest prick to ever land on the Earth. That doesn't make him wrong by default.
  27. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Of course, that sets up a niche for a nice buisiness now, doesnt it?

    BV
    I knew you were a capitalist.
  28. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by CSK
    The 2005 Honda Civic HX isn't even a hybrid and gets 44 MPG (and Honda says the 2006 should get ~6 or so more miles to the gallon).
    There's a company that's kept it's eye on the ball I'd say. I love my Honda. They have some more gas guzzling alternatives, but they always seem to have kept the focus on their core commuter boxes. That's going to help them a lot in the near future I think. What pisses me off is I was all set on getting a Honda Element soon. It's so God awful ugly I love it, and it'd be perfect for camping which I'm doing a lot of these days. But the mileage ain't that great.
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    They should start selling gas by the half-gallon and ration it. People are going crazy here in Florida over gas, and at 3.29 a gallon, the lines are still long. 3 of 4 the gas stations within a mile of my house are all dry except for premium and one is completly dry.
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    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:41 AM.
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