F**cking Gas Prices

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  1. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by not_big_enuf
    The US is pretty behind and finally now understands what other countries have done for years and years. We want our conveniences and at all costs and when things get harder, we bitch. You all know how it goes... gotta have those cabins and weekend trips hours away, or gotta pull those boats with a truck, or have that room, etc, etc.
    Yup, those other countries, what champs. Stagnating in socialist nonsensical borderline poverty when their economies could have advanced quite easily and quickly. And what dullards we are for increasing our productivity and available capital to the point where we have tons of leisure time and tons of ways to occupy ourselves during that time. I can't believe how small minded and bitchy we are when we complain every time our government's own meager attempts at destroying our economy affect this horrible tendency of Americans. You'd think we'd have learned by now.

    Bah, I just bought an SUV a few months ago... but my wife and I carpool to work now and save TONS of money. It's too bad we didn't wake up sooner and demand different cars running on different energy sources. It's also too bad we don't use public transportation nor put the money we should into developing it.
    Given the success of other government initiatives I don't know why people are so hesitant to let them develop alternative energy. Maybe because tons and tons of resources will be squandered and lost in the process because of the lack of accountability in such programs, but go figure. As for the market delivering such resources, it will when they become more economical compared to the alternatives. I don't get people who complain about high oil/gas prices and then demand more capital be poured into developing alternative energy sources. It's the high price of oil and gas that will spur such research and development. It's the government's constant nudging of the petroleum industry towards a present oriented business model and other interventions that's the main cause of these price fluctuations. If they hadn't been doing that the price of oil would have still fluctuated but would have been a hell of a lot smoother, and were it to finally rise because of diminishing reserves or increasing demand, the same thing would occur. Other resources would become more economical to develop.

    In the end there's nothing to admire in this particular situation in the European countries. Their policies are actually quite idiotic.

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    The point is that we, as the consumer, can't do anything about it so why complain about it? We take for granted that we are on top of the food chain and yes, we have given ourselves every right to have every convenience. Gas prices have been on the rise for years but until it directly hurts us we do little about it.

    Sorry, it just irritates me that I hear constant complaints but few do little but keep going to the pumps. We live in a country where we DO get whatever we want and have so much we forget about it. Spoiled? Yep. But at least I realize it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    Yup, those other countries, what champs. Stagnating in socialist nonsensical borderline poverty when their economies could have advanced quite easily and quickly. And what dullards we are for increasing our productivity and available capital to the point where we have tons of leisure time and tons of ways to occupy ourselves during that time. I can't believe how small minded and bitchy we are when we complain every time our government's own meager attempts at destroying our economy affect this horrible tendency of Americans. You'd think we'd have learned by now.

    In the end there's nothing to admire in this particular situation in the European countries. Their policies are actually quite idiotic.
    who told you that? have you ever been to europe in your life?

    not only that, oil (As we know it) will run out at about 2030. lets see you than talk about how we should keep with the oil.
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    FYI :

    > > Subject: Gas strike! - Sept 1
    > >
    > > IT HAS BEEN CALCULATED THAT IF EVERYONE IN THE UNITED STATES AND
    > > CANADA DID NOT PURCHASE A DROP OF GASOLINE FOR ONE DAY AND ALL AT
    > > THE SAME TIME, THE OIL COMPANIES WOULD CHOKE ON THEIR STOCKPILES. AT
    > > THE SAME TIME IT WOULD HIT THE ENTIRE INDUSTRY WITH A NET LOSS OF
    > > OVER 46 BILLION DOLLARS WHICH AFFECTS THE BOTTOM LINES OF THE OIL
    > > COMPANIES. THEREFORE SEPTEMBER 1st HAS BEEN FORMALLY DECLARED "STICK
    > > IT TO THEM" DAY AND THE PEOPLE OF THESE TWO NATIONS SHOULD NOT BUY A
    > > SINGLE DROP OF GASOLINE THAT DAY. THE ONLY WAY THIS CAN BE DONE IS
    > > IF YOU FORWARD THIS E-MAIL TO AS MANY PEOPLE AS YOU CAN AND AS
    > > QUICKLY AS YOU CAN TO GET THE WORD OUT. WAITING ON THE GOVERNMENT TO
    > > STEP IN AND CONTROL THE PRICES IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN. WHAT HAPPENED
    > > TO THE REDUCTION AND CONTROL IN PRICES THAT THE ARAB NATIONS
    > > PROMISED TWO WEEKS AGO? REMEMBER ONE THING, NOT ONLY IS THE PRICE OF
    > > GASOLINE GOING UP BUT AT THE SAME TIME AIRLINES ARE FORCED TO RAISE
    > > THEIR PRICES, TRUCKING COMPANIES ARE FORCED TO RAISE THEIR PRICES
    > > WHICH AFFECTS PRICES ON EVERYTHING THAT IS SHIPPED. THINGS LIKE
    > > FOOD, CLOTHING, BUILDING MATERIALS, MEDICAL SUPPLIES ETC. WHO PAYS
    > > IN THE END? WE DO!
    > >
    > > WE CAN MAKE A DIFFERENCE. IF THEY DON'T GET THE MESSAGE AFTER ONE
    > > DAY, WE WILL DO IT AGAIN AND AGAIN.
    > >
    > > SO DO YOUR PART AND SPREAD THE WORD. Â FORWARD THIS EMAIL TO
    > > EVERYONE YOU KNOW. MARK YOUR CALENDARS AND MAKE SEPTEMBER 1ST A DAY
    > > THAT THE CITIZENS OF THE UNITED STATES AND CANADA SAY "ENOUGH IS
    > > ENOUGH"

    Well it's not much but it's better than to take it in the 4ss without saying a word...
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    Interesting chain mail... sounds like it almost makes sense, but I doubt any complex calculation was actually figured out. Not to mention most people won't participate
  6. CDB
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    Quote Originally Posted by not_big_enuf
    The point is that we, as the consumer, can't do anything about it so why complain about it? We take for granted that we are on top of the food chain and yes, we have given ourselves every right to have every convenience. Gas prices have been on the rise for years but until it directly hurts us we do little about it.
    Adjusted for inflation and excluding temporary price spikes due to market uncertainty, mostly from wars in the middle east, embargos and unstable political situations in other areas where supplies originate, the prices of gas and oil haven't risen much if at all. That doesn't mean other factors can't make price 'rises' due to this or that factor harder to bear, but the situation is more complex than looking at the price then and now.

    Sorry, it just irritates me that I hear constant complaints but few do little but keep going to the pumps. We live in a country where we DO get whatever we want and have so much we forget about it. Spoiled? Yep. But at least I realize it.
    Spoiled? No. Spoiled implies you're getting something you didn't work for and don't really deserve. Americans have busted their asses for years and historically are one of the most productive populations that ever existed. Our productivity is for the most part in line with our energy consumption. Americans have every right to complain at the pumps, they just usually have no idea why they should be complaining. They blame ExxonMobile, not the government and their own stupidity in voting for people who have regulated, inflated and warred us into a pseudoshortage.
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    Quote Originally Posted by judge-mental
    who told you that? have you ever been to europe in your life?
    Many times. I have family all over the continent. Most of whom live in tiny houses or apartments and who hold jobs which, if they held them in America, would allow them to afford a much higher standard of living. Perhaps the statement was a bit hyperbolic, but the fact remains heavy socialistic and flat out socialist policies cause the squandering of vast amounts of resources and cause a permanent missallocation of resources that leads to a semipermanent economic recession. The more extreme the socialist forces, the more extreme the recession until it falls apart in an overall collapse.

    not only that, oil (As we know it) will run out at about 2030. lets see you than talk about how we should keep with the oil.
    I don't recall saying we should keep with the oil. I do recall saying several times that market forces should be allowed to work as they do for every other resource. This would allow the smoothing out of price fluctuations as speculators cut current production in anticipation of future needs. This would also allow a realigning of the overalll business models used by petroleum companies so they are not so present oriented. A good start would be to eliminate freedom of the seas, allow ownership of offshore resources, stopping subsidies and tax breaks for exploration, etc.

    Oil didn't mean anything to the ecnomy until recently. It used to be nothing but black sludge in the ground, an unwanted side effect of mining and other endeavors that required digging into the earth. Someone found out you could use it for a lot of things, it became big. If oil does run out in 2030, which incidentally is such a spurious claim it really doesn't even merrit a response, another resource will be found, another form of energy will be used. Doomsayers have been proclaiming the end of the world is nigh for millenia, always claiming that this or that resource will run out and then we'll be in for it, or if people don't stop behaving this or that way, then we'll be in for it. They've claimed wide scale economic collapses, starvation, worldwide armageddon, global warming, global ice ages, etc. In the history of the planet these doomsayers have never been right. Never. Excuse me if I don't get all panicy at the latest group of chicken littles because of a slight increase in the price of gas.
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    what countries are those, if I may ask?
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    ss01 = the man with the broken hands...
    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:35 AM.
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    It's not *MY* POS chain letter. Yeah, this will bankrupt oil companies. People will lose jobs.

    I just put it there for those people who are looking to "do something". Look : it's easy : gas prices are rigged on the international market. SOME people are getting ultra-rich by ripping the consumer off. The price just DOUBLED. Do you realize that? DOUBLED.

    *SOME* people do something else than bending over and taking it without even asking for petroleum jelly, even though it's now double the price too, I'll bet...........

    Is it *THE* answer? Nope it obviously isn't.
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    Okay guys either play nice or find a new playground to bash each other..
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    You got a Delorian that runs with a Mr. Fusion that I don't know about? You can just trash like Dr. Brown to run your car?
    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:36 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by jmh80
    You want to bankrupt oil companies?

    You want people to lose jobs? I'm sure that would do wonders for gas prices huh?
    While I do relate to you not wanting anyone to talk bad about your chosen line of work, people are getting very pissed off with the way that things in the oil industry are being run.. Yes there are some things that are out of our and your company's control but at the same time the whole blooming industry is choking the planet to death and killing all of us finanically and literally.. so sorry if some of us don't see things the exact way that you do
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    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:37 AM.
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    Matt - sorry for the tone in my first post in this page.
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    Personally I just wish we had a alt to gas myself.. besides footpower
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    You got a Delorian that runs with a Mr. Fusion that I don't know about? You can just trash like Dr. Brown to run your car?
    No, but if people were *really* concerned there are plenty of ways to save gas and money.

    Stop running around town in that goddamn Excursion, for one. Most vehicles made in the past 5 yeas can, with only some slight modifications to the engine management computer, run on straight ethanol (E85) or a good mix of ethanol and gasoline. You can build an ethanol still in your backyard if you're motivated enough:

    http://running_on_alcohol.tripod.com/

    Any diesel car can be made to run on used vegetable oil, and you can convert vegetable oils to a diesel-like fuel with a few simple chemical reactions.

    One argument is that that these solutions are beyond the reach of the average person. I say bullsh*t. Unless you physically CAN'T (dont have your own place or are physically unable of implementing the above or similar solutions) - anyone can invest the small amount of money and time it would take to make their own fuel.

    At the very least, drive a vehicle that is more economical.

    People want cheap gas. They want cleaner burning gas. They also do not want chemical processing plants anywhere near they live. These 3 goals are not quite the same. You obviously need to locate a plant where you can attract quality workers. And cleaner burning gas requires more complex equipment that costs plenty of money. This equipment does not allow for more throughput of motor gasoline. So, being that we are all public companies and we don't have arcane price caps as in China, end product prices will rise as gas becomes cleaner.
    I have to agree with jmh80 to a point. Everyone wants their cheap gas. Everybody wants easy access convienience and a cheap non-renewable natural resource that for decades we have been cautioned to conserve. Well, that's obviously not going to happen anytime soon.

    Chain letters? No offense bro I feel your frustration but that's not the answer. DO something about it! Its no use pointing the finger and oil companies, the mid east, etc. We LET BigOil (whomever that may be) and OPEC put a piano wire around our ballsack. For the past 100 years someone's been getting filthy rich off petroleum. Everybody knew that. But now that every car on the damn road is a <20MPG SUV and we use oil for *everything* - someone decided it was the perfect time to yank out the rug. You reap what you sow, and we've been planting the seeds of petroleum dependancy for the past 50 years.

    You bend over long enough, someone is going to give it to you in the ass.

    The options are there, if enough people implement them there will be positive results. Im not saying everyone build a still in the backyard of fuel up at the grease trap at McDonalds - but there are plenty of ways to conserve fuel and save money.

    I know it sucks, but there other options out there besides whining about something you hopelessly can't control.

    BV
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    gas in toronto tonight: $1.269 CDN per liter....that works out to $4.03/gallon USD!!!!
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    Freaking crazy! Its over $3.00 at some stations where I live. Funny thing is, some stations are charging upwards of $3.30 and others are still $2.85 or so. What's up with that??

    BV
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    Gas prices in muslim nations as of yesterday:

    IRAQ: 5 cents a gallon

    Iran: 40 cents a gallon

    Saudi Arabia: 91 Cents a gallon

    Kuwait: 78 Cents a gallon

    Egypt: 65 Cents a gallon

    Venezuela: 12 Cents a gallon




    oil shortage my butt!
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga
    Freaking crazy! Its over $3.00 at some stations where I live. Funny thing is, some stations are charging upwards of $3.30 and others are still $2.85 or so. What's up with that??

    BV
    5.67 in atlanta
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    5.67 in atlanta
    That's insane! That will probably come down sooner than later. It looks like some gas station owners are jacking up prices because of the catastrophe in New Orleans.

    BV
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    5.67 in atlanta
    Jesus,

    I filled up last night @ 2.65
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    It costs OPEC $4 a barrel to produce and market, and they are selling it for about $70 a barrel. Just doesn't seem right. It was just 6-7 years ago that we were paying about 99 cents a gallon.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Beelzebub
    5.67 in atlanta
    Jesus H. Christ I thought I was getting robbed at $3.07 for the cheapest gas I could find.
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    2.99 for me today
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    Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 02:38 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by D_town
    It costs OPEC $4 a barrel to produce and market, and they are selling it for about $70 a barrel. Just doesn't seem right. It was just 6-7 years ago that we were paying about 99 cents a gallon.
    $.89 in 1999 tonight $3.29... both Jersey and Pa. have laws where gas prices can only be raised once every 24hrs... guess what $3.09 on the way to work $3.29 on the way home! Now the gas cops are out and about over this price gouging my ass... out and out robbery!!!!
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    Quote Originally Posted by judge-mental
    what countries are those, if I may ask?
    The Netherlands, family in Delft and Amsterdamn. Cousins in London, and some aunt in Sweden I haven't seen since I was twelve. but I do remember she was a lawyer or whatever they call them in Sweden, and lived in an apartment, not a home. My father tried to explain to me why at the time, I didn't get it until later.
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    Some things:

    Gouging is a myth. If you were selling your car and the market allowed you charge a higher price, you would not be gouging anyone by doing so. Nor is anyone else for charging a higher price in a market with severe strains on supplies at this point in time. Higher prices serve a purpose: conservation. The higher the price the less people will use, the lower the strain on supplies. If companies were forced to sell at previous prices without regard to market conditions the information communicated by the price, that the oil and gas market is a bit ****ed at the moment, would not make it through to consumers who would continue to buy at their old levels. That is a sure way to a major shortage. I'm not driving as much as I used to, because gas is higher. Everytime I see it go higher still I say thank God, maybe more people will start getting the point. The higher the price goes the more economical alternatives become too, and that should make greenies happy.

    D-Town- $4 bucks to produce and sold for $70? I don't know where you got those figures, but say they're true. Rubber dog **** costs less than a quarter to make, sells for around five bucks. Rembrandts cost the price of a canvas, some oil paint and some hours painting by a dead guy to produce, they sell for millions. Diamonds don't cost too much to bring out of the ground, and unless they're being used in a saw of some kind have very little utility, however they sell for hundreds to thousands of dollars. The price of production has nothing to do with the price of the finished good, the only fixed relationship between the two is that if there's a demand for the finished product the price of its production can never be bid up higher than the price of the finished good. Sometimes the gap is big, sometimes it's not. And those prices of gas in the middle eastern countries don't take into account the massive government costs, governments there being heavily involved in the production. If I charged you 5 bucks per gallon in taxes and 'sold' you gas for 5 cents, I wouldn't be doing you a favor.

    Like it or not in a free market we determine the price for something. It's a balancing of utility; how much are we willing to pay for something, and is that in the range of utility where those who produce it will find it worth doing. Like it or not, the chain letter almost had the right idea. Don't stop buying for a day, buy less over time. I've stayed at a few friend's houses the last couple of nights because one, I was drunk, and two, I'd rather drive to work from their house witch is closer to my job than mine. 10 miles vs 30 miles. If people don't stop consuming at their current levels the oil companies have every right to assume they are willing to pay current prices. Just as if a rubber dog **** merchant charged 6 instead of 5 bucks for his good and the same amount of people bought, he'd have every right to keep the price there. If they bought less over time he'd better lower the price quickly and deal with a lower profit margin. It's an interesting phenomena, but lowering the price of something doesn't always increase sales, and doesn't always increase sales enough that volume sold makes up for the price drop. Revenue would still decline. People can only affect this situation by not buying as much as they used to over time, not striking for a day. Or, more likely, they'll vote themselves free gas and then we can look forward to a real shortage.

    For me personally, I hope the price keeps rising. I'm sick of the old bitties in my office setting the thermostat at 100 degrees and still walking around complaining how cold it is in there. Never wanted to smack someone so bad in my life. High oil, gas and energy prices in general might put an end to that at least.
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    Gouging isn't a myth when your government does not allow you to up the cost of something more than once in any given 24 hour period. Maybe a better word can be used then gouging, but it is happening here in NJ usa.
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    For me personally, I hope the price keeps rising. I'm sick of the old bitties in my office setting the thermostat at 100 degrees and still walking around complaining how cold it is in there. Never wanted to smack someone so bad in my life. High oil, gas and energy prices in general might put an end to that at least.
    As sick as it sounds, so do I. Maybe then people will get up the motivation to truly end, or at least significantly reduce our dependency on petroleum for energy. If the government and private industry made it a priority and devoted massive amounts of time and energy toward the task, it would no doubt become a reality.

    Our current primary energy source being outrageously expensive and in short supply is the best way to kick that in motion.

    As for me, next year Ill be tooling around in a french-fry grease powered VW, and as soon as I get a house Ill be making my own E85 for my Hondas. Like CDB said, do what you can to conserve over the long haul, and the tides will turn.

    BV
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    The problem isn't so much supply of oil here as it is refinery capacity. The Gulf Coast is home to a very large percentage of the oil refineries in ths country, and they're shut down. We simply have no way of refining oil at this point, and without refineries up and running, we're not gong to be able to meet demand.

    It's time to start building new refineries. Maybe put them up on closed military bases.

    We also need to streamline our fuel grades. There are over 40 different varieties of fuel grades used in this country, and with each new addition, more money is spent on production.

    That's what's the matter in Atlanta right now. They have this super-exclusive fuel grade set up for its clean burning properties, but it's very expensive to refine, and most of those facilities were in Mississippi and Louisiana. So they're getting screwed through the pooch for their environmental regulations.

    Yeah, alternative energy would be great. I'd love to see farmers pull down some more cash and to be able to keep their farms. I'd love to see supply go domestic and biodiesel to become the norm. But honestly, if we don't start some cominbation of burning more coal, building new refineries and drilling for more oil here in the US, we're screwed.

    As an aside, Bill Forbes set down a fairly convincing argument that the oil bubble would burst within a year. Hope he's right.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    Gouging isn't a myth when your government does not allow you to up the cost of something more than once in any given 24 hour period. Maybe a better word can be used then gouging, but it is happening here in NJ usa.
    You're missing the point. Gouging is a myth because people have the right to charge whatever they damn well please for the goods they produce and the services they provide, just as everyone else has the right to buy or not buy. Gouging is an aestetic argument. Oeople don't like the fact that prices can fluctuate, severely sometimes under extraordinary circumstances. Gouging is a myth because people in this country are taught from birth that if some disaster happens and the price of this or that good they deem essential goes up a lot, it's because of the greedy capitalists and not because the supply has been strained at the same time as an increase in immediate demand has gone up. Gouging is merely a rise in prices, a signal sent by the market that a certain goodor service has becomefar more valuable and should be used sparingly. People don't like reality though. Too inconvenient.
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    Rapid, pronounced rises in the price of oil have a tendency to do something strange to the economy. Just keep that in mind.
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    Quote Originally Posted by CDB
    The Netherlands, family in Delft and Amsterdamn. Cousins in London, and some aunt in Sweden I haven't seen since I was twelve. but I do remember she was a lawyer or whatever they call them in Sweden, and lived in an apartment, not a home. My father tried to explain to me why at the time, I didn't get it until later.
    you are somewhat right about holland, they are realizing theyre mistakes now BTW, but not about other countries IMO. I have been allover the continent and my sister lives in the netherlands.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BigVrunga

    Any diesel car can be made to run on used vegetable oil, and you can convert vegetable oils to a diesel-like fuel with a few simple chemical reactions.

    BV
    Hey BigVrunga, you got any good links on the vegetable oil and diesels (I'll look around a bit when things slow down a bit)? I currently drive a Jetta Diesel. Love it. It's been good, especially now. I'm in med school, so I wouldn't have tons of tme to brew up my own fuel, but I'm curious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MaynardMeek
    Gouging isn't a myth when your government does not allow you to up the cost of something more than once in any given 24 hour period. Maybe a better word can be used then gouging, but it is happening here in NJ usa.
    Yea maybe profiteering would be better
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    two stations by me just got shut down by the government for "profiteering" they are cracking down... YAY
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    Quote Originally Posted by ss01
    Rapid, pronounced rises in the price of oil have a tendency to do something strange to the economy. Just keep that in mind.
    Price controls have a much higher tendency to do strange things to the economy. Rapid, pronounced rises in prices of any commodity are almost always the result of government meddling in the market, and it's pretty strange to think that the people/entity that caused the problem have the know-how on the best way to fix it. Further meddling always makes the problem worse in the long and short term.

    Just keep that in mind.
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