F**cking Gas Prices
- 08-15-2005, 11:51 AM
Time to chime in and I'm sure it's going to irk some.
What are gas prices like compared to Europe? I'm pretty sure the US is DRASTICALLY lower. Perhaps I'm wrong.
The problem with the US is we don't want to be inconvenienced. We want to drive our gas-guzzling machines everywhere. We drive our trucks our big cars and then complain about gas prices. Why not get an economical car? Well, of course, we need a vehicle for our boat, we need to haul our kids, blah blah blah. Again, the convenience factor. I don't buy it.
What about public transportation? Well that inconvenient. I live in Minneapolis, a metro area and people heavily UNDER utilize public transportation. Why? Convenience. We want to be able to leave when we want. We don't want to add an extra 30 minutes to our commute. Time is money you know! Again, people don't want to be inconvenienced. Take the bus and schedule your meetings accordingly. Don't enroll your kids in 12 activities and force them to figure out their own things to do and use their mind. Or heaven forbid they go to the park and play instead of going to a scheduled activity.
My wife and I are just as guilty as anyone else in the US, but we're slowly realizing there are many way to cut costs DRASTICLY and NOT use the car for every single thing we want to do. We now carpool to work, and have made it work.
Do you really NEED a truck, a car, a van? Probably not, but we want the convenience. How are going to tow our boat or live without? Well, that's what you pay for... you live in the most convenienced country in the world... you can do anything you want with more luxuries than anywhere else... so a few extra dollars for gas should hardly kill you.
Instead of 3 trips to the store a week, why not make one? Why not live without the milk for a couple more days?
Sry, but the gas complaint is one that I don't see eye-to-eye with many on. We're so spoiled with the gas prices we have compared to others that I think we need to open our eyes and see how spoiled we really are and we truly have over here. We've CREATED our own dependence and now it's starting to hurt a little and instead of looking at how to remedy it with other options, we complain.
Ok, sry, I'm done with my soapbox... and I'm sorry to criticize, but it comes back to the laziness factor so often and that really irks me with the US. We're fat and lazy and this is just another example of how we want every convenience all the time.
- 08-15-2005, 01:52 PM
I think there is 'red tape' and politics in every market. Look at the diamond business. DeBeers carefully controls that market yet you dont see people marching with pitchforks about it.
In North America we are used to having our cake and eating it too. However the global reality is catching up with us. Emerging economies are increasing demand and supply is slowly decreasing - it's as simple as that.
I have to admit that I was disappointed when Bush declared that he would not back energy conservation if it there was potential for negative impact on the economy. Given fossil fuel projections and the reliance on oil from 'unstable' foreign countries, I thought it was a great opportunity to get the ball rolling. With some government tax incentives we could have had competitively priced hybrid or diesel technology by now.
Where I live in Canada, gas prices are US$3.40 per gallon. They are even higher in Europe but at least they have extensive and clean diesel options, even for larger passenger cars. Not too mention closer proximities and (usually) decent public transportation.
So I think we need to stop bellyaching about the prices. If we want to make a statement, vote with our dollars and do whatever we can to use less energy.
08-15-2005, 02:32 PM
Try the UK @ £4 a gallon (£7.23852 us dollars to be precise)
You guys need to make a stand now, a few years ago us brits tried to stand up to the price rises but the goverment knew that all they had too do was sit tight and we would back down. true enough as soon as the supermarkets started to run dry we just folded over like a badly stacked house a cards...now they have us over a (oil) Barrell and now they just sit and rub their hands as everytime we fill up at least 80% of it is tax and goes straight in their coffers.
08-15-2005, 02:36 PM
So what you're actually implying is that Europeans are pretty dumb for paying such high prices for gas all along. This doesn't mean that Americans should pay more. The complaint of Europeans has always been paying far more for gasoline. Maybe they should try getting their politicians to get better deals on oil and lower the taxes on its importation. Perspective is important.What are gas prices like compared to Europe? I'm pretty sure the US is DRASTICALLY lower.
That's absurd. There is no lack of raw crude supply for the next 50 years or more. Perhaps we haven't found enough of it, but all projections I've seen have shown that there is enough oil in the earth to support continued fossil fuel use. I will repeat, there are not enough refineries with the capacity to process the oil. Oil companies like higher prices. They make more money. Why should they go through the hassle of building new refineries when they can make more profit with less effort?In North America we are used to having our cake and eating it too. However the global reality is catching up with us. Emerging economies are increasing demand and supply is slowly decreasing - it's as simple as that.
You were disappointed, but please don't tell me you were surprised. This is a man who has spent his life working in the oil industry, who is friends with big oil owners like the bin Ladins, who has done nothing but destroy environmental preservation regulations since he entered office. What exactly did you expect?I have to admit that I was disappointed when Bush declared that he would not back energy conservation if it there was potential for negative impact on the economy.
08-15-2005, 02:45 PM
08-15-2005, 03:27 PM
Hardly absurd. Crude oil supply, refineries, dead Saudi Kings, voodoo hexes, whatever... There is inadequate supply to achieve the prices that people are more comfortable with. I think it is unrealistic to expect one's governement to dictate international corporation decisions. That's not to say it cant be done. Monetary incentives, political pressure, or even military action are viable but not always cost effective or ethical. Not too mention contrary to the spirit of the free-market system that our countries are built on.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
As for Bush, being Canadian, I knew nothing about him until he was elected. Being each others neighbour and largest trading partner, canadians are not totally ignorant of US politics but our knowledge is typically limited to the top tier Feds (or whoever jumps in from pop culture). Although I will admit that I'm surprised that he has not taken some remedial action given the market situation and his connection to the oil industry (and now conflict of interest).
08-15-2005, 06:07 PM
Originally Posted by Matthew D
This is a total fallacy. The tar pits in Canada contain an estimated 260 billion barrels of oil just waiting to be tapped. That is more than all of the Middle East. If the planet continues to use oil at its current rate, that resource alone will keep going for at least 100 years, and that is just one source of oil. Granted oil use will go up, but this whole thing about oil becoming scarce are nothing more than scare tactics by misguided and misinformed "experts".
On top of that North America contains an estimated 730million year coal reserve.
08-15-2005, 06:48 PM
Mach I am older than you are And as for pulling younger generation from the X box.. my two kids don't even own one... and won't
08-15-2005, 06:50 PM
I guess that the damage caused to the environment do from mining, drilling, and use of fossil fuels is just a scare tactic also? and just because it is there does that mean it can be used?Originally Posted by Sir Foxx
08-15-2005, 07:06 PM
Hey, I'm all for the Star Trek lifestyle, with antimatter and dilithium crystals being our power source, but until we have those things, we might as well use what we have.
08-15-2005, 07:23 PM
I sold my truck and bought a Honda Accord. (freaking awesome car - 28mpg average city/hwy, 33+ on long trips). When I have the proper facilites, Ill be driving a diesel converted to run on vegetable oil.
Energy is something we all need, and the 'man' is just going to use it as another vehicle to enslave the middle and lower socioeconomic class and keep them where they are - mindless spending, buying what the media tells them to. They have to if they are to hold on to their positions of power,wealth and influence.
Does that soccer mom 'need' that GMC Denali? Nope. But they'll keep buying, and fuel prices will keep rising. And Ill drive around with death metal blasting out of my fryer oil powered VW telling everyone to go fu*k themselves
08-15-2005, 08:51 PM
Good man. They are most likely athletic as well. Keep up the good work.Originally Posted by Matthew D
08-15-2005, 08:56 PM
08-15-2005, 09:13 PM
Hey jmh80, thanks for understanding the frustration....
I saw Lou Dobbs talking about refineries in Usa today and he basicly
was saying that 6(or maybe 7? don't remember)
refineries were off line in america right now and another (7 or 6?)
weren't running at full capacity.. He said why all of a sudden were so
many down or partially down when we need them up and running ?
I can tell your knowledge is way over my head in this subject, and really
don't have much time for debating, but appreciate you taking the time
to try and explain your side......
I still think at this time , the oil companies should be trying to work
with the america people ....
just my opinion....
It will have a back firing effect sooner or later....
08-15-2005, 09:16 PM
Crude and distillate inventories are higher now than they were when oil was hitting $40. There aren't any shortages of distillates other than jet fuel in some markets due to "just in time" inventory management by the airlines. They adopted this approach b/c they neglected to hedge their exposure to crude.
The price at the pump is nearly a perfect correlation to the price of unleaded futures. There is convexity related to taxes, carry and storage+shipping, but it's pennies. I trade 1000s of crude oil option contracts a week. Trust me, the only conspiracy is the lemmings that make up the hedge fund community. The price is rallying due to speculative positions. Buying begets buying, it's a self-fulfilling prophecy.
08-15-2005, 10:58 PM
Have fun at over $3.50 around the country by next April. No thanks to our spinless Congressmen for not attempting legislation around the US for MTBE.
See - I was close. It was around $3 in most of the US. All Congress' fault....
Last edited by jmh80; 05-28-2006 at 04:29 AM.
08-15-2005, 11:02 PM
08-15-2005, 11:24 PM
Supply and demand bro. Supply and demand.
The prices haven't caught up to the meteoric rise in crude in the last 3 weeks (over $10). EVEN IF crude stabalizes, gas will rise independent.
08-15-2005, 11:36 PM
Markets move towards equilibrium; this is currently a demand related issue not a supply issue. Some economists will tell you that oil prices are "falsely" elevated due to a "terrorism tax" being levied on prices. Some specualte that this "terrorism tax" could be anywhere from 10-20 american dollars.Originally Posted by jmh80
Also, I think it is important to recognize that OPEC is a oligopoly. In such a market form, collusion is rather simple. OPEC is a cartel and thus cartel economics apply. Cartels tend to limit supply (often falsely) to fix prices or increase prices. In the long run, one member of the cartel will break rank and prices will move (often down) again.
08-15-2005, 11:48 PM
08-15-2005, 11:51 PM
I figured as much... but damn I see all the negative that comes with petro chemicals and it like, why can't we find a better way...
08-16-2005, 07:11 AM
It's the government's attempt to 'cut through red tape' that often adds to the price of oil. And usually the red tape is of their own making which has already added to the price.Originally Posted by Brooklyn
Most likely reality. The problem is most people don't realize that businesses, oil or otherwise, can't rape them unless the government enables it.That won't happen. America has become too pussified to protest much of anything. This country lets atrocities far more appalling than gas prices go unanswered. They'll just be a lot of bitching and moaning and for some, economy car purchases. Take New Jersey as an example. Has anyone ever actually protested the absurd levies on driving and living in that state? Has anyone looked at how much it costs just to have the ability to drive in New York? You're taxed on property you already own, as if you owe something to the government for you owning a piece of the "Land of the Free." In some states, you pay property taxes on your car every year. Kansas raised traffic violations fines to three times as much money as they were before. I don't see revolts in the streets on account of any of this. No, the gas companies, like the government, will continue to rape America and Americans will continue to bend over and take it. Now you tell me, is that pessimism or is that reality?
As I stated later in my post, a lack of refineries is a problem. Look to NIMBY types who use the government to stop the building of such refineries rather than letting companies buy land at and build. As far as shortages, we're not there yet on a mass scale but there have been regional shortages here and there over the years, especially in areas were there are strict or very specific gas regulations which preclude the sale of gas from neighboring areas. With continued government action screwing around with the price of oil/gas, both in raising it through taxes but more importantly in screwing with the time structure of production, it's hard to say when a shortage would hit, but one is likely to hit.What is this silliness which assumes an oil shortage as the cause of the high prices? There is no such shortage. The shortage is not in supply of crude but in supply of refined oil. It's refineries which there is a shortage of. Find a way to build more and that oil company excuse will be null and void. This is what the President should be focusing on, if he had the ability to focus on anything but his own interests and what his advisors tell him to do. Since when has Bush cared about environmentalists?
If gas keeps hopping up people will start to limit their driving. If the price of eggs keeps going up people eat less of them. It's simple economics. If the government screws with the market to stop the price from going up, then Americans won't have a choice as a shortage would probably follow.In the Shakespearean play Julius Caesar, Brutus is an idealist. Led to believe through unrealistic ideas on how to restore Rome's former glory by Cassius the power-hungry cynic, he murders his friend and patriot Caesar. The problem is that the Rome of Brutus' dreams never truly existed. It was a concept; a pipe dream of what could be, or what should be. Similar is any comment on America greatly reducing its vehicle use. That is, shall I say, highly unlikely. Let us not speculate first on the most unlikely of probabilties, lest we come to find regret too late as did Brutus.
08-16-2005, 07:27 AM
Sp as the economy advances we should see a drop in conveniences, a drop in leisure time, etc? One of the signs of a healthy, thriving economy is falling prices because of the increases in the amount of goods and services, drops in costs to companies, and increased productivity on the part of labor. The reason gas prices are so high in Europe is taxes, which are used to fuel socialist and psuedosocialist governments which do their best to screw up European economies. I'd rather not buy that system.Originally Posted by not_big_enuf
And again, why should they be inconvenienced? a more pertinent question is why the government keeps wasting Christ knows how much money on public transportation when most people don't use it. It's the perfect example of the public use of money vs the private use of money. Public transportation essentially fails because few people want to use it, so it gets more money and still fails. In the private sector such a business would have been scrapped and liquidated, or changed and remade to the point where it did appeal to people by giving what they wanted, whatever that may be.What about public transportation? Well that inconvenient. I live in Minneapolis, a metro area and people heavily UNDER utilize public transportation. Why? Convenience. We want to be able to leave when we want. We don't want to add an extra 30 minutes to our commute. Time is money you know! Again, people don't want to be inconvenienced. Take the bus and schedule your meetings accordingly. Don't enroll your kids in 12 activities and force them to figure out their own things to do and use their mind. Or heaven forbid they go to the park and play instead of going to a scheduled activity.
The reason we live in one of the most convenienced countries on the plant is because we've been one of the most productive societies in the history of the planet. And for my productivity I have the right to demand more convenience, which means I come and go as I please and don't wait for some stinky ass bus full of BO smelling degenerates.Do you really NEED a truck, a car, a van? Probably not, but we want the convenience. How are going to tow our boat or live without? Well, that's what you pay for... you live in the most convenienced country in the world... you can do anything you want with more luxuries than anywhere else... so a few extra dollars for gas should hardly kill you.
This is one of the weirder opinions I've heard on the subject, and I've heard it alot from people. What's the substance of it, be happy our government here in the US is ****ing us slightly less than the governments abroad? As if not getting ass raped by the government is some sort of guilty pleasure we enjoy here in America, and not something we should expect and demand. The idea that the true and proper mode of existence is to have the government leaning over your shoulder and charging 300% taxes on everything, and that we should be thankful for every situation where they aren't doing that is ridiculous.Sry, but the gas complaint is one that I don't see eye-to-eye with many on. We're so spoiled with the gas prices we have compared to others that I think we need to open our eyes and see how spoiled we really are and we truly have over here.
Perhaps you could explain why life must be inconvenient when it does't have to be?Ok, sry, I'm done with my soapbox... and I'm sorry to criticize, but it comes back to the laziness factor so often and that really irks me with the US. We're fat and lazy and this is just another example of how we want every convenience all the time.
08-16-2005, 07:28 AM
Not to mention abiotic oil theories, which are apparently panning out here and there in drilling experiements.Originally Posted by Sir Foxx
08-16-2005, 07:30 AM
I'd agree that would be the trend in a free market. The problem is the one way cartels can survive is by having the government enforce them, or a group of governments such as in OPEC. Even were a new peteroleum producing power to rise in our world, they'd likely join a similar organization.Originally Posted by size
08-16-2005, 10:51 AM
I am sure this was said before... crude price actually has no true impact on gas price... there is no REAL reason for this gas price hike whatsoever.. but please, if you will, look at this as the last big gasp of air being taken by a dying beast. gas (as we know it) is going to change dramatically within the next 10-15 years, and those with the power now are trying to suck as much money from the market as they can before the change over. He told me it wouldn't shock him to see reg. gas prices rise to over $5.00 US but then drop to 2.00 then rise up back to 4.00 so on and this trend will keep to ease the people ( this info from a BS session i had with a very well respected researcher out of princeton university who is working on other sources of transportation energy)
Also, most if not all of our military trucks now over in Iraq etc. are fully or close to fuller fit with amour... however.. though safer, these truck are now very very heavy and are sucking thru gas like there is no tomorrow .. so just like back WW2 when people had to go on a sugar ration to feed the need of the american GI's... we too have to pay our part.... for or against the O.peration I.raqi L.iberation ;-)
please note Operation Iraqi Liberation was never a term used by anyone in our government... its just a clever little thing i heard regarding the hidden meaning in being in Iraq.. which isn't even correct in the first place :-)
08-16-2005, 09:07 PM
That is actually quite easy; convenience is relative. Squeezing a few people and baggage into an economy car may be less convenient than doing the same in an Escalade but it is more convenient than walking. Monitoring and eating an appropriate diet to maintain a healthy bodyweight could be construed as incovenient. Should everyone be entitled to cheap gastric bypasses to improve convenience? It really depends on your own priorities...Originally Posted by CDB
08-16-2005, 09:56 PM
08-17-2005, 06:27 AM
its really sad that that scares me. we are so dependent on oil, seriously, can u imagine how different everything will be without oil if nothing new is developed?Originally Posted by Matthew D
08-17-2005, 02:20 PM
scary, too, because war is definitely in the backs of the minds of leades of the world...oil will most likely be necessary to stay on top and nobody wants to lose power. AT the smae time, we're going to have "underdog" countries looking to take advantage of the situation.Originally Posted by Mrs. Gimpy
We better find alternatives QUICK.
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