How Israel avoids the obvious Palestinian solution

lutherblsstt

Guest
David Bromwich, professor of literature at Yale University, discusses the standard Israeli practice of making incongruous conditional demands to avoid serious discussion of a Palestinian state, the propaganda and fundraising boon Ahmadinejad has been to AIPAC, the radicalizing effect recent Russian immigrants have had on Israeli politics and how the Iranian nuclear scaremongering may be designed for American consumption.

http://dissentradio.com/radio/09_05_06_bromwich.mp3
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Just sounds like left wing, anti-israel garbage. I wish I could get the 5 minutes back I just wasted. The first step to a real peace process will be to retake the gaza strip and annihilate every last trace of Hamas.
 

AE14

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
ahh luther havent seen you in a while. so entertaining to have you back :rolleyes:
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Just sounds like left wing, anti-israel garbage. I wish I could get the 5 minutes back I just wasted. The first step to a real peace process will be to retake the gaza strip and annihilate every last trace of Hamas.
Sooner or later, Americans are going to wake up to the fact that Israel's influence on the American government is detrimental.

Let me quote Jimmy Carter:

"JERUSALEM, June 16 -- Former president Jimmy Carter said Tuesday that Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were being treated "more like animals than human beings" by Israeli rules that have limited travel, banned the import of all but basic goods and prevented reconstruction since a three-week war ended earlier this year.

"Never before in history has a large community been savaged by bombs and missiles and then deprived of the means to repair itself," he said.

Carter called the situation "a terrible human rights crime," noting that the restrictions force people to rely on smugglers for many items.

"This abuse must cease. The crimes must be investigated. The wall must be brought down, and the basic right of freedom must come to you," he said at a United Nations school during a visit to Gaza that included meetings with top officials of the Islamist Hamas group, which holds power in the area."
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Jimmy Carter. :lol: Now there's a credible figure and a real success story. The same guy who took a trip to N.Korea and informed us that Kim Il Sung (aka The Great Leader) was a helluva guy and just misunderstood by the west. The same guy who said "we are now free of that inordinate fear of Communism" and was so shocked when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan a year later.

Maybe one of these days he'll broker a peace deal between the NAACP and the KKK! :lol:

Thanks for the good laugh. Keep'em coming!
 
fightbackhxc

fightbackhxc

Well-known member
Awards
2
  • RockStar
  • Established
In the bible ( I know not everyone believes it ) but It said that there would never be peace among them and pretty much middle eastern countries.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Jimmy Carter. :lol: Now there's a credible figure and a real success story. The same guy who took a trip to N.Korea and informed us that Kim Il Sung (aka The Great Leader) was a helluva guy and just misunderstood by the west. The same guy who said "we are now free of that inordinate fear of Communism" and was so shocked when the Soviets invaded Afghanistan a year later.

Maybe one of these days he'll broker a peace deal between the NAACP and the KKK! :lol:

Thanks for the good laugh. Keep'em coming!
I have a sneaking suspicion that any political figure or anyone else for that matter who happens to present a viewpoint opposed to yours is considered "not credible" by you.

Never mind the fact that Carter actually met the leader of North Korea personally and gave his assessment,you consider him to be not "credible" because he didn't echo what the mainstream media says about Il Sung .

Let me ask you this,who do you consider "credible" ? Sean Hannity? George W. Bush? Who?
 
bpmartyr

bpmartyr

Snuggle Club™ mascot
Awards
1
  • Established

AE14

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • RockStar
  • Legend!
  • Established
credible and owners of the oval office dont seem to fit IMO.
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Okay!

I have a sneaking suspicion that any political figure or anyone else for that matter who happens to present a viewpoint opposed to yours is considered "not credible" by you.

Never mind the fact that Carter actually met the leader of North Korea personally and gave his assessment,you consider him to be not "credible" because he didn't echo what the mainstream media says about Il Sung .

Let me ask you this,who do you consider "credible" ? Sean Hannity? George W. Bush? Who?
I don't much care for polarizing figures either way. I'm no more of a Hannity fan than I am a Limbaugh fan or a Keith Olberman fan. As far as Carter is concerned. He is not credible when it comes to foreign policy at all. He is a naive individual who seems to believe that there are no bad people in the world. Just good people who do bad things.

Carter went to Pyongyang and was given the official Kim Il Sung VIP propaganda tour and swallowed the BS hook, line, and sinker. He stated (paraphrasing) that the department stores were just as busy and bustling with shoppers as any Wal Mart in the USA. This is, as we know, a country where at least 40% of the people are suffering from malnutrition and somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million people died of famine in the 1990s. It is also a country where generations of families live in labor camps because of political "crimes" committed by their ancestors.

He also believes that he can convince Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist and make peace, which is about as likely as a peace deal between the Neo Nazis and the NAACP.

He is just not a credible figure when it comes to foreign policy. He may mean well, but he is naive and irrelevant.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
I don't much care for polarizing figures either way. I'm no more of a Hannity fan than I am a Limbaugh fan or a Keith Olberman fan. As far as Carter is concerned. He is not credible when it comes to foreign policy at all. He is a naive individual who seems to believe that there are no bad people in the world. Just good people who do bad things.
Or maybe he actually judges people off of what he personally experiences when he meets them instead of what is spoon fed to him via the media?



Carter went to Pyongyang and was given the official Kim Il Sung VIP propaganda tour and swallowed the BS hook, line, and sinker.
According to who?

He stated (paraphrasing) that the department stores were just as busy and bustling with shoppers as any Wal Mart in the USA. This is, as we know, a country where at least 40% of the people are suffering from malnutrition and somewhere in the neighborhood of 2 million people died of famine in the 1990s.
Are you saying he was hallucinating?


He also believes that he can convince Hamas to recognize Israel's right to exist and make peace,
What does this have to do with his credibilty?


He is just not a credible figure when it comes to foreign policy. He may mean well, but he is naive and irrelevant.
Let me ask you again,who is a credible figure that we can compare Carter to when it comes to foreign policy?
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Thanks for another great laugh.

Sure, we are being spoonfed BS by our media about N. Korea. I'm sure the people who risk their lives escaping into China to beg for food are just ungreatful bastards.

It is probably a paradise just like the Kim regime tells us it is. :lol:

No wonder it's considered treason to escape the country. I mean, they offer paradise, so anyone who'd try to escape deserves to spend the rest of their life in a labor camp.

A credible figure to compare Carter to on foreign policy. I guess Michael Moore if you'd consider him credible, which I'm sure you do.

You're a riot! I love you hon! More please kind sir! :lol:

Changing the subject. Here's a question I've always wanted to ask a genious like you. What kind of explosives do you think D1ck Cheney used to bring down the world trade center?
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Sure, we are being spoonfed BS by our media about N. Korea. I'm sure the people who risk their lives escaping into China to beg for food are just ungreatful bastards.
Of course I'm sure you talked to some of them firsthand and did not get this little tidbit from the media.

It is probably a paradise just like the Kim regime tells us it is. :lol:
Of course not,but what country is? Also,what does this have to do with what Carter said?



A credible figure to compare Carter to on foreign policy. I guess Michael Moore if you'd consider him credible, which I'm sure you do.
Nice way to dodge the question and try to make it look like sarcasm.



Changing the subject. Here's a question I've always wanted to ask a genious like you. What kind of explosives do you think D1ck Cheney used to bring down the world trade center?


http://www.fallacyfiles.org/guiltbya.html

Guilt by association as an ad hominem fallacy

"Guilt by association can sometimes also be a type of ad hominem fallacy, if the argument attacks a person because of the similarity between the views of someone making an argument and other proponents of the argument.

Example of Guilt By Association

Will and Kiteena are arguing over socialism. Kiteena is a pacifist and hates violence and violent people.

Kiteena: "I think that the United States should continue to adopt socialist programs. For example, I think that the government should take control of vital industries."

Will: "So, you are for state ownership of industry."

Kiteena: "Certainly. It is a great idea and will help make the world a less violent place."

Will: "Well, you know Stalin also endorsed state ownership on industry. At last count he wiped out millions of his own people. Pol Pot of Cambodia was also for state ownership of industry. He also killed millions of his own people. The leadership of China is for state owned industry. They killed their own people in that square. So, are you still for state ownership of industry?"

Kiteena: "Oh, no! I don't want to be associated with those butchers!"
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Of course I'm sure you talked to some of them firsthand and did not get this little tidbit from the media.

You absolutely must be joking! You think there is no famine and people are really not fleeing NK for food!!!!!! The Chinese govt even acknowledges this. I guess they're just receiving billions in aid from US, SK, Japan, and others for they're great contributions to the world. It looks like there's a big international media conspiracy aimed at making the NK regime look bad.

Unbelievable!

P.S. I just noticed that your occupation is teacher. That's really unfortunate. People like you are what is wrong with education in this country today. Our schools are being overrun with marxists loons like yourself who are indoctrinating an entire generation with your poisonous propaganda.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Of course I'm sure you talked to some of them firsthand and did not get this little tidbit from the media.

You absolutely must be joking! You think there is no famine and people are really not fleeing NK for food!!!!!! The Chinese govt even acknowledges this. I guess they're just receiving billions in aid from US, SK, Japan, and others for they're great contributions to the world. It looks like there's a big international media conspiracy aimed at making the NK regime look bad.
I never said whether I believed it or it was a conspiracy or any of the words you put into my mouth,again you dodge the question and obfuscate.

I said initially in reference to comments you allege Carter made about people shopping in North Korea `Are you saying he was hallucinating?`

Do you think everyone or even the majority is starving in North Korea?

YouTube - Inside secretive North Korea - 09 Jun 09
`




P.S. I just noticed that your occupation is teacher. That's really unfortunate. People like you are what is wrong with education in this country today. .

Hey,read an interesting quote once:

“Whatever I do is done out of sheer joy; I drop my fruits like a ripe tree. What the general reader or the critic makes of them is not my concern.”

Our schools are being overrun with marxists loons like yourself who are indoctrinating an entire generation with your poisonous propaganda
Where have I identified or inferred that I was a Marxist?

Oh and by the way:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/ad-hominem.html

An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.

The process of proving or disproving the claim is thereby subverted, and the argumentum ad hominem works to change the subject.
 
bpmartyr

bpmartyr

Snuggle Club™ mascot
Awards
1
  • Established
Here is an ad hominem for you Luther: You are a complete moron who copies and pastes ad nauseum. Nobody loves you. Nobody likes you. You are a tool.

How's that?

:D
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
People in the showcase capital are not starving. Do you really think what you see in that video represents the majority of NK?
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Here is an ad hominem for you Luther: You are a complete moron who copies and pastes ad nauseum. Nobody loves you. Nobody likes you. You are a tool.

How's that?

:D

“Whatever I do is done out of sheer joy; I drop my fruits like a ripe tree. What the general reader or the critic makes of them is not my concern.”
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
People in the showcase capital are not starving. Do you really think what you see in that video represents the majority of NK?
The point is that both sides are using propaganda,not just North Korea.
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
The point is that both sides are using propaganda,not just North Korea.
Te UN estimates that over 40% of the population is suffering from malnutrition. International aid workers have seen first hand children starving on concrete floors in orphanages. People risk their lives to flee to china to beg for food. The country has a dictator who is worshiped like a diety. Cell phones are banned, as well as private house phones. The televisions and radios receive only propaganda about the "Dear Leader. Trying to leave is considered treason and punishable by death. Thess are facts, not propaganda.
 
JW32Hoops

JW32Hoops

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Hey fellas. This thread has taken a few twists and turns already, but getting toward the original post.....why are we Israel's only ally? I'm far from an expert on the subject and try your best not to flame me as I explain my knowledge on the subjet of Israel/Palestine without looking anything up...

The Nazi's incinerated millions of Jews, so as some form of reparations, the United Nations carved out a piece of Palestine and declared "this is no longer your land Palestinians, this is now Israel, a land that Jews can call their own and be safe from all the people who hate them and wish them harm"....naturally, the Palestinians were like "ummm.....no" and have been resisting ever since. Wonder if the early resistors were called "insurgents". :06:

So...back to my original question. How is that "just" for the Palestinians? What if the UN declared that the entire population of Darfur was to inhabit half of Arizona, and that half would be referred to as Darfuria. Sure, it'd be a sweet deal for the Darfurians, but wouldn't there be Arizonan "insurgents" that rebelled against the apportioning of their land?

I know this is a super-simplified account, but I'm putting what I know out there. Would love to hear where I'm right, wrong, etc.....and also some justification of Israel's existence. Allying ourselves with them seems to be quite the source of trouble for the good ol U.S.and A. :usa1:
 

youngandfree

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
In the bible ( I know not everyone believes it ) but It said that there would never be peace among them and pretty much middle eastern countries.
The most overlooked underlying point to the entire history and future of the conflict. Check out the research from Joel Rosenburg. He worked for Israeli prime ministers, has worked in washington. He has written several novels, but a great non-fiction book called Epicenter.
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Hey fellas. This thread has taken a few twists and turns already, but getting toward the original post.....why are we Israel's only ally? I'm far from an expert on the subject and try your best not to flame me as I explain my knowledge on the subjet of Israel/Palestine without looking anything up...

The Nazi's incinerated millions of Jews, so as some form of reparations, the United Nations carved out a piece of Palestine and declared "this is no longer your land Palestinians, this is now Israel, a land that Jews can call their own and be safe from all the people who hate them and wish them harm"....naturally, the Palestinians were like "ummm.....no" and have been resisting ever since. Wonder if the early resistors were called "insurgents". :06:

So...back to my original question. How is that "just" for the Palestinians? What if the UN declared that the entire population of Darfur was to inhabit half of Arizona, and that half would be referred to as Darfuria. Sure, it'd be a sweet deal for the Darfurians, but wouldn't there be Arizonan "insurgents" that rebelled against the apportioning of their land?

I know this is a super-simplified account, but I'm putting what I know out there. Would love to hear where I'm right, wrong, etc.....and also some justification of Israel's existence. Allying ourselves with them seems to be quite the source of trouble for the good ol U.S.and A. :usa1:

It is complicated. If I could rewrite history, I'da carved out a portion of Germany and called it Israel, since afterall, most Germans were well aware of what was being done to the jews yet denied knowing after the war was over.

The UK basicaly redrew the map of the middle east after the collapse of the Ottoman Empire after WWI. Prior to WWII, the UK was the world's greatest superpower and controlled the entire mideast. They installed monarchs that ruled at the pleasure of the west. The Jews were driven out of Israel some 3000 years ago and giving them back the land was basically a reparation for the Holocaust.

The Palestinians were pushed aside and forced off their land. It definitely wasn't fair. The Pals have basically been in a similar situation as the blacks were in S.Africa under British Apartheid rule. I think the biggest mistake is the way they resist it. If they had a leader like Ghandi, MLK, or Nelson Mandela, who preached peaceful, nonviolent resistance, they might get more international sympathy and ultimately have their own sovereign state. The biggest problem is that both the Jews and Muslims claim Jerusalem as their capital and believe the whole region to be their rightful holy land.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Te UN estimates that over 40% of the population is suffering from malnutrition. International aid workers have seen first hand children starving on concrete floors in orphanages. People risk their lives to flee to china to beg for food. The country has a dictator who is worshiped like a diety. Cell phones are banned, as well as private house phones. The televisions and radios receive only propaganda about the "Dear Leader. Trying to leave is considered treason and punishable by death. Thess are facts, not propaganda.
Source please. Also,this falls under perceptions management.

Perception management is a term originated by the U. S. military. The U. S. Department of Defense (DOD) gives this definition:

"Actions to convey and/or deny selected information and indicators to influence emotions, motives, and objective reasoning as well as to intelligence systems and leaders at all levels to influence official estimates, ultimately resulting in foreign behaviors and official actions favorable to the originator’s objectives. In various ways, perception management combines truth projection, operations security, cover and deception, and psychological operations."
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Just do a google search and you will find more than enough sources to piss you off.
 

nopeace

Member
Awards
1
  • Established
Israel will always avoid questions concerning human rights violations and any type of true and fair treaty. So long as our media has Israel's back on every war crime they commit, there will never be peace. Hamas is made more than accountable for it's actions against the peace process by what not Israel?

The kill ratio is 400:1 and some how Hamas is the only bad guy?
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Just do a google search and you will find more than enough sources to piss you off.
Again:perceptions management= ""Actions to convey and/or deny selected information and indicators to influence emotions, motives, and objective reasoning as well as to intelligence systems and leaders at all levels to influence official estimates, ultimately resulting in foreign behaviors and official actions favorable to the originator’s objectives."

You think that all the reports are totally accurate from outside N. Korea but from inside it is pure propaganda?
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
You're a regular John Wayne with the mouse when it comes to cutting and pasting. :lmao:

The short answer to your question is yes. Have you ever read the KCNA or Pyongyang Times? I have just for fun. When a "newspaper" is full of nothing but stories of how wonderful the "Great Leader" is, how he is revered throught the world as a genious (when we all know that isn't true), and how S.Korean people are starving and living under a US tyrrany (we also know is false), I have no choice but to believe that their media is full of BS and propaganda and that the other 99.9% of the worldwide media, telling an opposite story (as well as the defectors) just may contain a grain of truth.

I don't know what you're currently taking for these delusions. Halodrol, thorazine? I think you may need to see your doc about having the dosage adjusted.

Glad I could help!
 

devil

Member
Awards
0
Israel is in a tough situation. You have the ever growing power of the radical settler movement contrasted with the desire of most Israelis to have a mostly secular existance. Most people tend to focus on the Palestinian issue as israel's primary problem. However, the settler issue increasingly influencing the Israeli government's position on the palestinian issue.

The settlers are increasingly expressing a willingness to to resort to violence if things don't go their way. As such, the israeli government must move carefully on this issue. The fact that the Palestinian's often resort to jackass methods to "further" their cause just plays right into the hands of the israeli government....that the Palestionians are a bunch of crazed nuts that can't be trusted.

Furthermore, Hamas is heavily funded by Iran. Israel is hardly the only country in the region that is not exactly excited about another iranin puppet regime gaining more influence. I find it interesting that many don't questions Iran's intentions in funding Hamas. Iran is trying to influence the region in a very meddlesome manner. yet people tend to fixate on the US as the sole source of such behaviors...interesting.

Ahmadinejad runs around saying outrageous things for the very same reason Israel plays up his comments. Quite simply it distracts from the grim domestic realities. However, this can quickly become a dangerous game of political chicken. Prior to the US invasion of Iraq, Saddam NEVER denied possessing weapons of mass destruction. The fact that none were ever found does not make the realitiy of what happened in iraq any different.
 

youngandfree

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
Has anyone forgot about the alliance Putin made with Iran concerning weapons and nuclear technology? No one has said much about Russia for a while, but they definitely are in cahoots with Iran.
 
poison

poison

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
The point is that both sides are using propaganda,not just North Korea.
The point is actually that your using Jimmy Carter to back up your statements just makes you look like a moron. Carter is one of the most failed presidents in US history, and a crackpot when it comes to foreign policy. He loves to give voice to terrorists and dictators out of some maligned identification with the underdog, without first identifying who the party really is and what they stand for.

I have a question for you: why Israel? I'm pretty sure you're not Jewish. So why spend so much time creating threads against Israel. Do you really believe Israel, on the world scale of things, is the biggest problem, the wisest use of your sandy vag time? You claim Israel perpetrates atrocities; yet you ignore the Congo, Sudan, China, Burma/Myanmar, Pakistan, etc. Really? You really believe Israel is the problem we should all be looking at here?

So, why the vendetta against Israel? Because it's the hip thing among academics? It plays well with the foreign chicks, shows you care, man!?
 
poison

poison

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
Has anyone forgot about the alliance Putin made with Iran concerning weapons and nuclear technology? No one has said much about Russia for a while, but they definitely are in cahoots with Iran.
Cahoots? Russia built Bushehr. Russia supplies Iran and Syria with weapons, and funds Hizbullah to the tune of $100 million a year in weapons and training.
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
I realized quickly that luther had no credibility when he started claiming N. Korea's problems were a creation of western "propaganda." It's just tragic that we have so many whackjobs like him in academia brainwashing young people.

These days, in academia, it seems that to be considered an intellectual, one only needs to be an opposer of the status quo. Whether or not you have anything of value to offer or any of your ideas are in anyway logical doesn't really matter.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
The point is actually that your using Jimmy Carter to back up your statements just makes you look like a moron. Carter is one of the most failed presidents in US history, and a crackpot when it comes to foreign policy. He loves to give voice to terrorists and dictators out of some maligned identification with the underdog, without first identifying who the party really is and what they stand for.

I have a question for you: why Israel? I'm pretty sure you're not Jewish. So why spend so much time creating threads against Israel. Do you really believe Israel, on the world scale of things, is the biggest problem, the wisest use of your sandy vag time? You claim Israel perpetrates atrocities; yet you ignore the Congo, Sudan, China, Burma/Myanmar, Pakistan, etc. Really? You really believe Israel is the problem we should all be looking at here?

So, why the vendetta against Israel? Because it's the hip thing among academics? It plays well with the foreign chicks, shows you care, man!?
There is no "vendetta" against Israel on my part,just so happens that the US government treats Israel as if it was a part of the United States and an inordinate amount of our tax dollars go to Israel,which I think is absurd.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

For example,during Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid (http://opencrs.com/getfile.php?rid=80868)

By the way,Carter is no different than a long line of Presidents when it comes to who he "hangs" with,many of the world's most repressive dictators have been friends of America.

Tyrants, torturers, killers, dictators and corrupt puppet-presidents have been aided, supported, and rewarded handsomely for their loyalty to US interests. See: http://www.funkiness.com/dictators/
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
I realized quickly that luther had no credibility when he started claiming N. Korea's problems were a creation of western "propaganda."

I never said that,I asked how do you know about N. Korea's problems,never denied they have them (as do all countries to varying degrees) My point was that N. Koreas problems are obviously presented in the worst light possible by their enemies (the US,Japan,etc.) and in the best light by them and their allies,the truth likely lies somewhere in between.

It's just tragic that we have so many whackjobs like him in academia brainwashing young people.
Yes,terrible to be encouraging young people to question what the media (or anyone,even me) spoon feeds them and to think critically,just awful!
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
I never said that,I asked how do you know about N. Korea's problems,never denied they have them (as do all countries to varying degrees) My point was that N. Koreas problems are obviously presented in the worst light possible by their enemies (the US,Japan,etc.) and in the best light by them and their allies,the truth likely lies somewhere in between.
You are correct in your last point. Saddam was our favorite dictator for a long time and that angers me. He was the replacement of the Shah of Iran, who was basically the equivalent of Saddam in Iran.

Yes,terrible to be encouraging young people to question what the media (or anyone,even me) spoon feeds them and to think critically,just awful!
Encouraging critical thinking and indoctrinating students into your way of thinking are not the same thing. Your attempt to draw a moral equivalency between the INTERNATIONAL community's criticism of N.Korea and N.Korea's state propaganda machine as well as their brutal repression of their people is absurd on its face.
 

youngandfree

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
There is no "vendetta" against Israel on my part,just so happens that the US government treats Israel as if it was a part of the United States and an inordinate amount of our tax dollars go to Israel,which I think is absurd.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

For example,during Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid ([url]http://opencrs.com/getfile.php?rid=80868[/url])


Luther, if you read the report you cited, it lists all the money the US has given to the Palestinians, not Israel. It lists all the ways the US has given money through second and third parties, since giving directly to the Hamas led governtment would look pretty bad.

Yes the US supports Israel, or at least used to. It's hard to say how Obama is going to play things out.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Encouraging critical thinking and indoctrinating students into your way of thinking are not the same thing. Your attempt to draw a moral equivalency between the INTERNATIONAL community's criticism of N.Korea and N.Korea's state propaganda machine as well as their brutal repression of their people is absurd on its face.
Again,I encourage young people to question what the media (or anyone,even me) spoon feeds them and to think critically. For example,you put INTERNATIONAL in bold but fail to realize that what they (the UN,etc.) state is backed by an agenda as is anything coming out of N. Korea or any other country. You just fail to grasp that particular nuance.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
There is no "vendetta" against Israel on my part,just so happens that the US government treats Israel as if it was a part of the United States and an inordinate amount of our tax dollars go to Israel,which I think is absurd.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

For example,during Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid ([url]http://opencrs.com/getfile.php?rid=80868[/url])


Luther, if you read the report you cited, it lists all the money the US has given to the Palestinians, not Israel. It lists all the ways the US has given money through second and third parties, since giving directly to the Hamas led governtment would look pretty bad.

Yes the US supports Israel, or at least used to. It's hard to say how Obama is going to play things out.


http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html#source



According to the report the U.S. has never provided Palestinians with military aid (although we have provided Palestinians with aid for policing their own people as well as with humanitarian and development assistance).



The source for US military aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2009 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated February 3, 2009. According to this report, by early February 2009, the US had already given Israel at least $2.55 billion ($2,500,000,000) in military aid for Fiscal Year 2009.

Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has been increasing military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”

Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use over 26% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2007, it was the 8th largest arms supplier to the developing world.”

In addition to military aid, the United States continues to provide Israel with additional aid and benefits. The numbers are not yet available for FY2009, but are likely to be significant.

By all accounts the United States has given more money to Israel than to any other country. The Congressional Research Service’s conservative estimate of total cumulative US aid to Israel (not adjusted for inflation) from 1949 through 2009 is $106.1647 billion.

A November 2008 Washington Report article “A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: $114 Billion,” by Shirl McArthur, puts the cumulative total even higher.

According to McArthur, “[T]he indirect or consequential costs to the American taxpayer as a result of Washington’s blind support for Israel exceed by many times the amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel. Some of these ‘indirect or consequential’ costs would include the costs to U.S. manufacturers of the Arab boycott, the costs to U.S. companies and consumers of the Arab oil embargo and consequent soaring oil prices as a result of U.S. support for Israel in the 1973 war, and the costs of U.S. unilateral economic sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria. (For a discussion of these larger costs, see ‘The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion,’ by the late Thomas R. Stauffer, June 2003 Washington Report, p. 20.)”
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Again,I encourage young people to question what the media (or anyone,even me) spoon feeds them and to think critically. For example,you put INTERNATIONAL in bold but fail to realize that what they (the UN,etc.) state is backed by an agenda as is anything coming out of N. Korea or any other country. You just fail to grasp that particular nuance.
Let's get past the bad guy media hype then. I would be interested (and probably entertained) to know what your assessment of the situation is in N.Korea. All media crap aside. Let me share a personal experience with you. I have actually met two N.Korean girls. I was in Beijing China in 2006. There is a street in the Haidian district that mostly constists of bars and restaurants from foreign countries (USA, France, UK, Vietnam, Germany, S.Korea, N.Korea, etc.) . I went into the N.Korean restaurant. There were two girls working there and they both had their Dear Leader badges pinned to their shirt.

There was one glaring difference between the girls who worked in that restaurant and the people who worked in the other foreign restaurants. Like the other places, the N.Korean restaurant was only open from 11:00-2:00 (lunch) and from 5:00 to 10:00pm (dinner). Unlike the employees at the other foreign restaurants, the two girls that worked in the N.Korean restaurant were not allowed to walk up and down the street when the restaurant was closed. They were not allowed to go any further than a few feet from the entrance, while people who worked in other foreign restaurants were free to do whatever they wanted to do when the place was closed. I know this because I had my wife take a picture of me with the north korean girls and they told us that they could not walk any further than a few feet from the door. They could speak Chinese and clearly represented the few priviledged people who are able to live in the capital city and impressed your hero Jimmy Carter.

But, perhaps I am just not intellectual enough to understand that everything I see is just western spoon fed propaganda.
 
roids1

roids1

Banned
Awards
1
  • Established
Again,I encourage young people to question what the media (or anyone,even me) spoon feeds them and to think critically. For example,you put INTERNATIONAL in bold but fail to realize that what they (the UN,etc.) state is backed by an agenda as is anything coming out of N. Korea or any other country. You just fail to grasp that particular nuance.

You obviously have your own agenda. With all due respect, I don't understand how you got hired as a school teacher.
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
Let's get past the bad guy media hype then. I would be interested (and probably entertained) to know what your assessment of the situation is in N.Korea. All media crap aside. Let me share a personal experience with you. I have actually met two N.Korean girls. I was in Beijing China in 2006. There is a street in the Haidian district that mostly constists of bars and restaurants from foreign countries (USA, France, UK, Vietnam, Germany, S.Korea, N.Korea, etc.) . I went into the N.Korean restaurant. There were two girls working there and they both had their Dear Leader badges pinned to their shirt.

There was one glaring difference between the girls who worked in that restaurant and the people who worked in the other foreign restaurants. Like the other places, the N.Korean restaurant was only open from 11:00-2:00 (lunch) and from 5:00 to 10:00pm (dinner). Unlike the employees at the other foreign restaurants, the two girls that worked in the N.Korean restaurant were not allowed to walk up and down the street when the restaurant was closed. They were not allowed to go any further than a few feet from the entrance, while people who worked in other foreign restaurants were free to do whatever they wanted to do when the place was closed. I know this because I had my wife take a picture of me with the north korean girls and they told us that they could not walk any further than a few feet from the door. They could speak Chinese and clearly represented the few priviledged people who are able to live in the capital city and impressed your hero Jimmy Carter.

But, perhaps I am just not intellectual enough to understand that everything I see is just western spoon fed propaganda.
It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point; but such anecdotes don't actually prove anything to anyone. I also never said that "everything you see is just western spoon fed propaganda", way to distort my point!
 

lutherblsstt

Guest
You obviously have your own agenda. With all due respect, I don't understand how you got hired as a school teacher.
That is because

1. You don't actually know me.

2. You know nothing about what I teach or how.

3. What I am writing here has nothing to do with me being a teacher.
 
poison

poison

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point; but such anecdotes don't actually prove anything to anyone.
Yet you take Carters anecdotes as gospel and hard fact. Nice double standard.
 

devil

Member
Awards
0
It's pretty amazing really. People would have you think Israel is th only place that has Palestinian refugee camps. Squalid Palestinian camps exist in a number of ME countries. Back in 2007 the Lebanese government simply shelled one of the camps for weeks as a means of dealing with millitants holed up inside. Many civilians died and the entire camp was essentially evacuated under fire.No cries of genocide or calls for UN resolutions. I wonder why? http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/674.shtml

People talk about the large number of displaced Palestinians. What most people don't know is that a larger number of Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country around the same time. This actually created a greater need for a Jewish homeland, while diminishing the posibility of Palestinians ever returning to their homes. Israel gladly accepted these refugees. The Arab countries on the other hand simply decided that having Palestinians in refugee camps was more politically advantageous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
 
poison

poison

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
blahblahblahlotsofmoney

According to McArthur, “[T]he indirect or consequential costs to the American taxpayer as a result of Washington’s blind support for Israel exceed by many times the amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel. Some of these ‘indirect or consequential’ costs would include the costs to U.S. manufacturers of the Arab boycott, the costs to U.S. companies and consumers of the Arab oil embargo and consequent soaring oil prices as a result of U.S. support for Israel in the 1973 war, and the costs of U.S. unilateral economic sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria. (For a discussion of these larger costs, see ‘The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion,’ by the late Thomas R. Stauffer, June 2003 Washington Report, p. 20.)”
Now you are really stretching. The implication that all of the above are because of Israel is bull****. Plenty of that would've happened regardless of the relationship the US had with Israel. There are enough studies on the cost of Israel as an ally; I want to see one of the cost of not having Israel as an ally.

The US only started supporting Israel in the 70's, contrary to popular blog knowledge. Why did this happen? Because our arch enemy, Russia, was making overt moves in the Middle East, and Israel was the best choice of ally.

It's not charity. It's not a good deed, altruistic, on the part of the US. It serves the needs of the US, it's a give and take, from which both sides benefit hugely.

You ignore the fact that Iraq is now the largest recipient of aid, and you ignore that Egypt has been second largest since the peace accord with Israel.
 
poison

poison

Board Sponsor
Awards
3
  • Established
  • First Up Vote
  • RockStar
It's pretty amazing really. People would have you think Israel is th only place that has Palestinian refugee camps. Squalid Palestinian camps exist in a number of ME countries. Back in 2007 the Lebanese government simply shelled one of the camps for weeks as a means of dealing with millitants holed up inside. Many civilians died and the entire camp was essentially evacuated under fire.No cries of genocide or calls for UN resolutions. I wonder why? http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/674.shtml

People talk about the large number of displaced Palestinians. What most people don't know is that a larger number of Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country around the same time. This actually created a greater need for a Jewish homeland, while diminishing the posibility of Palestinians ever returning to their homes. Israel gladly accepted these refugees. The Arab countries on the other hand simply decided that having Palestinians in refugee camps was more politically advantageous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands
Luther ignores the 850k Jews that were killed and/or expelled from Arab countries in the first half of the 1900's. There's a study out there on what the worth of the land confiscated would be today; it's in the billions.

It's interesting: Israel has a policy of accepting any Jew as an Israeli citizen, unconditionally. I'm a Jewish convert, and gained Israeli citizenship immediately. Yet Arab countries have a policy of NOT accepting Palestinians, NOT helping them.

It would suck to lose all leverage against the evil Jews.
 

youngandfree

Well-known member
Awards
1
  • Established
http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats/usaid.html#source



According to the report the U.S. has never provided Palestinians with military aid (although we have provided Palestinians with aid for policing their own people as well as with humanitarian and development assistance).



The source for US military aid to Israel during Fiscal Year 2009 is the Congressional Research Service’s “U.S. Foreign Aid to Israel,” written by Jeremy M. Sharp, Specialist in Middle Eastern Affairs, updated February 3, 2009. According to this report, by early February 2009, the US had already given Israel at least $2.55 billion ($2,500,000,000) in military aid for Fiscal Year 2009.

Over the last 20 years, the U.S. has been slowly phasing out economic aid to Israel and gradually replacing it with increased military aid. Beginning in 2007, the U.S. has been increasing military aid by $150 million each year. By FY2013, we will be sending Israel $3.15 billion a year (or an average of $8.6 million a day) and will continue to provide military aid at that level through 2018. U.S. tax dollars are subsidizing one of the most powerful foreign militaries. According to the CRS report, “[current U.S. military aid] grants to Israel represent 18.5% of the overall Israeli defense budget.”

Contrary to ordinary U.S. policy, Israel has been and continues to be allowed to use over 26% of this military aid to purchase equipment from Israeli manufacturers. According to CRS, “no other recipient of U.S. military assistance has been granted this benefit.” Thanks in part to this indirect U.S. subsidy, Israel’s arms industry has become one of the strongest in the world. “In 2007, it was the 8th largest arms supplier to the developing world.”

In addition to military aid, the United States continues to provide Israel with additional aid and benefits. The numbers are not yet available for FY2009, but are likely to be significant.

By all accounts the United States has given more money to Israel than to any other country. The Congressional Research Service’s conservative estimate of total cumulative US aid to Israel (not adjusted for inflation) from 1949 through 2009 is $106.1647 billion.

A November 2008 Washington Report article “A Conservative Estimate of Total Direct U.S. Aid to Israel: $114 Billion,” by Shirl McArthur, puts the cumulative total even higher.

According to McArthur, “[T]he indirect or consequential costs to the American taxpayer as a result of Washington’s blind support for Israel exceed by many times the amount of direct U.S. aid to Israel. Some of these ‘indirect or consequential’ costs would include the costs to U.S. manufacturers of the Arab boycott, the costs to U.S. companies and consumers of the Arab oil embargo and consequent soaring oil prices as a result of U.S. support for Israel in the 1973 war, and the costs of U.S. unilateral economic sanctions on Iran, Iraq, Libya and Syria. (For a discussion of these larger costs, see ‘The Costs to American Taxpayers of the Israeli-Palestinian Conflict: $3 Trillion,’ by the late Thomas R. Stauffer, June 2003 Washington Report, p. 20.)”


The report you cited though was about money given to Palestinians, not Israel. You should read your reports more thoroughly before you cite them in a pointless argument.
http://opencrs.com/getfile.php?rid=80868) This is what you cited.
 

Similar threads


Top