How Israel avoids the obvious Palestinian solution

[roids1]

It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point; but such anecdotes don't actually prove anything to anyone. I also never said that "everything you see is just western spoon fed propaganda", way to distort my point!

Sure, I'm sure those two girls were just an acception. Surely that's not the rule for everyone, despite all the western propaganda we're being spoonfed that tells the same story. Maybe they were just trouble makers.

Now Jimmy Carter, he's a much more credible source of information about these misunderstood dictatorships! You are a riot!!! :lmao: It's just sad that you are in a position to influence young impressionable minds. That part is truley tragic.

What was it the soviets used to call people like yourself? Useful idiots.

 

[devil]

You have to love Carter fixating on Gaza, and calling it a unique humantiarian crisis. Is he not aware of the Congo, Darfur, the recent conflict in Sri Lanka ( estimates of 20,000 plus civilians killed in just several months of fighting the Tamil Tigers). It's mind blowing that so called educated people buy into his crap while ignoring conflicts that make the one going on in Israel look like a picnic.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Luther ignores the 850k Jews that were killed and/or expelled from Arab countries in the first half of the 1900's. There's a study out there on what the worth of the land confiscated would be today; it's in the billions.

It's interesting: Israel has a policy of accepting any Jew as an Israeli citizen, unconditionally. I'm a Jewish convert, and gained Israeli citizenship immediately. Yet Arab countries have a policy of NOT accepting Palestinians, NOT helping them.

It would suck to lose all leverage against the evil Jews.

Moshe Dayan, former Chief of Staff and Minister of Defense, was uninhibited in his summary of the nature of Zionist colonization before students at the Israel Institute of Technology (The Techniyon):

"We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs, and we are building here a Hebrew, Jewish state. Instead of Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You do not even know the names of these villages and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist. Not only the books, but also the villages do not exist.

Nahalal was established in place of Mahalul, Gevat in place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Hanifas and Kafr Yehoushu’a in the place of Tel Shamam. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village."

 

[lutherblsstt]

Yet you take Carters anecdotes as gospel and hard fact. Nice double standard.

Where did I say or imply that?

 

[lutherblsstt]

It's pretty amazing really. People would have you think Israel is th only place that has Palestinian refugee camps. Squalid Palestinian camps exist in a number of ME countries. Back in 2007 the Lebanese government simply shelled one of the camps for weeks as a means of dealing with millitants holed up inside. Many civilians died and the entire camp was essentially evacuated under fire.No cries of genocide or calls for UN resolutions. I wonder why? http://electronicintifada.net/bytopic/674.shtml

People talk about the large number of displaced Palestinians. What most people don't know is that a larger number of Jews were expelled from virtually every Arab country around the same time. This actually created a greater need for a Jewish homeland, while diminishing the posibility of Palestinians ever returning to their homes. Israel gladly accepted these refugees. The Arab countries on the other hand simply decided that having Palestinians in refugee camps was more politically advantageous. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

An interesting piece of info:

"In the post-1967 territories of occupation, a Palestinian cannot plant a tomato without a permit from the Israeli government. He or she cannot plant an eggplant without such a permit. You cannot whitewash your house. You can’t fix a pane of glass. You can’t sink a well.

Since 1967, more than 300,000 Palestinian youth have passed through Israeli prisons under conditions of institutional torture. Amnesty International concluded that there is no country in the world in which the use of official and sustained torture is as well-established and documented as in the case of the state of Israel.

Twenty-one years after the Israeli seizure of Gaza, the Los Angeles Times described its consequences:

Only about 2,200 Jewish settlers live in the Gaza Strip, which was captured from Egypt, but they occupy about 30% of the 135 square mile area. More than 650,000 Palestinians, mostly refugees, are squeezed into about half the strip, making it one of the most densely populated areas in the world. The rest of Gaza’s land has been designated restricted border zones by the army."


Dan Fisher, Los Angeles Times, November 11, 1987

Also see:

Torture And Ill Treatment Of Detainees In Israel
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0906/S00347.htm

 

[lutherblsstt]

You have to love Carter fixating on Gaza, and calling it a unique humantiarian crisis. Is he not aware of the Congo, Darfur, the recent conflict in Sri Lanka ( estimates of 20,000 plus civilians killed in just several months of fighting the Tamil Tigers). It's mind blowing that so called educated people buy into his crap while ignoring conflicts that make the one going on in Israel look like a picnic.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

 

[poison]

Sooner or later, Americans are going to wake up to the fact that Israel's influence on the American government is detrimental.

Let me quote Jimmy Carter:

"JERUSALEM, June 16 -- Former president Jimmy Carter said Tuesday that Palestinians in the Gaza Strip were being treated "more like animals than human beings" by Israeli rules that have limited travel, banned the import of all but basic goods and prevented reconstruction since a three-week war ended earlier this year.

"Never before in history has a large community been savaged by bombs and missiles and then deprived of the means to repair itself," he said.

Carter called the situation "a terrible human rights crime," noting that the restrictions force people to rely on smugglers for many items.

"This abuse must cease. The crimes must be investigated. The wall must be brought down, and the basic right of freedom must come to you," he said at a United Nations school during a visit to Gaza that included meetings with top officials of the Islamist Hamas group, which holds power in the area."

You are relying on Carter's experience, and opinion, to support your point. Not fact, anecdotal evidence.

I have a sneaking suspicion that any political figure or anyone else for that matter who happens to present a viewpoint opposed to yours is considered "not credible" by you.

Never mind the fact that Carter actually met the leader of North Korea personally and gave his assessment,you consider him to be not "credible" because he didn't echo what the mainstream media says about Il Sung .

Let me ask you this,who do you consider "credible" ? Sean Hannity? George W. Bush? Who?

You're calling Carter credible. You attach importance to his opinion, enough to base your argument off of.

Or maybe he actually judges people off of what he personally experiences when he meets them instead of what is spoon fed to him via the media?





According to who?



Are you saying he was hallucinating?




What does this have to do with his credibilty?




Let me ask you again,who is a credible figure that we can compare Carter to when it comes to foreign policy?

More of the same.

Of course I'm sure you talked to some of them firsthand and did not get this little tidbit from the media.



Of course not,but what country is? Also,what does this have to do with what Carter said?





Nice way to dodge the question and try to make it look like sarcasm.

Again, you use Carter's first hand experience and anecdotal evidence to back up your theory, yet when roids tells his anecdote, to support HIS theory, you dismiss his personal experience and say:

It's quite valid to use personal experience to illustrate a point; but such anecdotes don't actually prove anything to anyone.

Lolzors. Nice double standard. Not the first one from you, either. You just pissed on your own point.

 

[poison]

Moshe Dayan, former Chief of Staff and Minister of Defense, was uninhibited in his summary of the nature of Zionist colonization before students at the Israel Institute of Technology (The Techniyon):

"We came here to a country that was populated by Arabs, and we are building here a Hebrew, Jewish state. Instead of Arab villages, Jewish villages were established. You do not even know the names of these villages and I do not blame you, because these geography books no longer exist. Not only the books, but also the villages do not exist.

Nahalal was established in place of Mahalul, Gevat in place of Jibta, Sarid in the place of Hanifas and Kafr Yehoushu’a in the place of Tel Shamam. There is not a single settlement that was not established in the place of a former Arab village."

You ignore that the Jews who immigrated to Israel, starting from the First Aliyah in the 1880's, bought Arab land with cold hard cash. YOu assume that it was stolen. You assume that Arabs did not murder Jews and steal their land.

Listen close. There has never been a Palestinian homeland. Ever, in history. That's cold, hard fact for you. Before it was Jewish Israel, it was British land; before that it was Ottoman for 500+ years; before that it was Crusader, Mamluk, Roman, Jewish, etc. Never once has it been a palestinian country; moreover, before 1950, there was never a Palestinian people. Ever, in history. People have come, in Israel, people have gone, others have conquered, but the one constant has been the resident Jews. The artifacts are ottoman, and Crusader, and Mamluk, and Roman (oh, what roman ruins!), but intermingled, and underneath all that, all of it, are Jewish ruins. Not Palestinian. You won't find a single ****ing Palestinian artifact anywhere. Period.

Listen closer. There was no Palestinian land or people. What there is are Arabs who lived there, families and clans, many for hundreds of years, some for over 1000 years (though that's rare), some only a couple generations. These people have a right to their individual plots of land. Cold, hard irrefutable fact. THese people deserve to be squared away properly, with land, money, or both. But not a single ****ing one has more of a right to a country there than Israel, and a 2 state solution is extremely ****ing generous on Israel's part, BECAUSE THERE WAS NEVER A PALESTINIAN STATE, EVER.

If the Holocaust never happened, and Jews never recreated the state of ISrael, there would not be a chance in hell of a Palestinian state being created. Jordan would occupy most of Israel, with Egypt taking up the rest. Fact. Only when Jews started immigrating did anyone come up with that nonsense.



Answer me this. Israel is approximately 6mil people, 5 million Jews and 1 million Arabs. Now, what people don't get is these are Israeli citizens, OUTSIDE the Palestinian areas (where the residents are NOT Israeli citizens). In other words, 20% of the Israeli populace is Israeli-Arab, with full rights as citizens, and a waiver from IDF mandatory service to prevent conflicts of interest for them.

Now, take the Palestinian controlled areas, Gaza and the WEst Bank. Israel, in a concession towards peace in 2005, forcibly and against its citizens wishes pulled all Jews out of Gaza, and gave Gaza over to PA control. The West Bank has a majority Arabs, with around 650k Jews living in settlements therein.

When Palestinians talk about a 2 state solution, they want the settlements dismantled. Why? Why did Israel have to force all Jews out of Gaza? I mean, fully 20% of its citizens are Arabs, with the most freedom of any Arabs in the Middle East (go ask any Israeli-Arab if 1) they would rather live in, say, Saudi ARabia, and 2) if they plan on moving to a Palestinian state, once created? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no, and no). If Israel kicked those 1 million Israeli-Arabs out, there'd be an international outcry. BUt when the Palestinians insist on doing just that, ethnically cleansing all Jews from their land, no one says a peep.

Why can't there be Palestinian-Jews, Jews living under Palestinian control, just as there are Israeli-Arabs in Israel? Why is 20% of Israel Arab, and growing, but Palestinian land must be 'Jew-free'?


I'm going to go pop some popcorn.

 

[roids1]

Originally Posted by lutherblsstt
Of course I'm sure you talked to some of them firsthand and did not get this little tidbit from the media.




Poison:

Again, you use Carter's first hand experience and anecdotal evidence to back up your theory, yet when roids tells his anecdote, to support HIS theory, you dismiss his personal experience and say

:

This jumped right off the page at me. I told you I spoke firsthand to two N.Korean girls who told me that they were not allowed to leave the very front of their building in China. Yet, said that still doesn't prove anything (perhaps you were suggesting they were lying?). Yet, here you try say poison's arguement isn't valid because he's never spoken directly to a palestinian about the subject. Way to contradict yourself luther! :lmao:

Again, great target practice if not all that challenging.

 

[poison]

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

Bull****. If Israel didn't exist, Islamists would still be attacking America. Israel is simply convenient leverage for Islamists, and they put the Israel stamp on anything they can, as a result, whether or not it actually has anything to do with Israel. Why? It harnesses a traditional, longstanding hatred of Jews.

Arabs were attacking Jews long before Israel was created.

 

[roids1]

On that point, I'd like to know, when radical islamists from Pakistan bomb buildings in India, what does that have to do with the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Or when muslim radicals in Chechnya capture a middle school and shoot 12 year olds in the back as they try to escape, how is that related to the I/P issue? When they attack christian villages in Thailand, etc. To assume that groups like Al Quaeda andother muslim radicals would simply disband and stop their attacks if all the Jews left Israel tomorrow is assinine.

 

[lutherblsstt]

On that point, I'd like to know, when radical islamists from Pakistan bomb buildings in India, what does that have to do with the Israeli/Palestinian situation. Or when muslim radicals in Chechnya capture a middle school and shoot 12 year olds in the back as they try to escape, how is that related to the I/P issue? When they attack christian villages in Thailand, etc. To assume that groups like Al Quaeda andother muslim radicals would simply disband and stop their attacks if all the Jews left Israel tomorrow is assinine.

Let me ask an equally ridiculous question.

What does invading Iraq have to do with 9/11?

 

[lutherblsstt]

:

This jumped right off the page at me. I told you I spoke firsthand to two N.Korean girls who told me that they were not allowed to leave the very front of their building in China. Yet, said that still doesn't prove anything (perhaps you were suggesting they were lying?). Yet, here you try say poison's arguement isn't valid because he's never spoken directly to a palestinian about the subject. Way to contradict yourself luther! :lmao:

Again, great target practice if not all that challenging.

Where exactly did I say that "poison's arguement isn't valid because he's never spoken directly to a palestinian about the subject" ? Yet another straw man attempt.

Funny how something that I never said "jumped right off the page at you",did you take your meds today or is that just the shrooms kicking in?

 

[poison]

Let me ask an equally ridiculous question.

What does invading Iraq have to do with 9/11?

What does that have to do with this thread? Btw, are you going to ignore my posts?

 

[roids1]

Let me ask an equally ridiculous question.

How is the question ridiculous? You act as if the I/P situation is the root cause of all the instability in the world, particularly between the islamic world and the west. I am pointing out that there are many hot spots throught the world involving radical muslims who refuse to get along with their nonmuslim neighbors and have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

The Israel/Pal situation is just a separate problem of its own. But, it is a convenient way for the radical muslims to attempt to garner sympathy from the outside by blaming all of their problems on Israel.

Hell, once Israel gave them back the gaza strip, they just started fighting among each other and used it as a way to fire rockets deeper inside Israeli cities.

What does invading Iraq have to do with 9/11?

Nothing. I never said it did. My opinion is that it had more to do with the value of Haliburton stock and settling a score b/w Bush and Saddam. What does that have to do with the Israeli/Pal issue?

 

[lutherblsstt]

You ignore that the Jews who immigrated to Israel, starting from the First Aliyah in the 1880's, bought Arab land with cold hard cash. YOu assume that it was stolen. You assume that Arabs did not murder Jews and steal their land.

Listen close. There has never been a Palestinian homeland. Ever, in history. That's cold, hard fact for you. Before it was Jewish Israel, it was British land; before that it was Ottoman for 500+ years; before that it was Crusader, Mamluk, Roman, Jewish, etc. Never once has it been a palestinian country; moreover, before 1950, there was never a Palestinian people. Ever, in history. People have come, in Israel, people have gone, others have conquered, but the one constant has been the resident Jews. The artifacts are ottoman, and Crusader, and Mamluk, and Roman (oh, what roman ruins!), but intermingled, and underneath all that, all of it, are Jewish ruins. Not Palestinian. You won't find a single ****ing Palestinian artifact anywhere. Period.

Listen closer. There was no Palestinian land or people. What there is are Arabs who lived there, families and clans, many for hundreds of years, some for over 1000 years (though that's rare), some only a couple generations. These people have a right to their individual plots of land. Cold, hard irrefutable fact. THese people deserve to be squared away properly, with land, money, or both. But not a single ****ing one has more of a right to a country there than Israel, and a 2 state solution is extremely ****ing generous on Israel's part, BECAUSE THERE WAS NEVER A PALESTINIAN STATE, EVER.

If the Holocaust never happened, and Jews never recreated the state of ISrael, there would not be a chance in hell of a Palestinian state being created. Jordan would occupy most of Israel, with Egypt taking up the rest. Fact. Only when Jews started immigrating did anyone come up with that nonsense.



Answer me this. Israel is approximately 6mil people, 5 million Jews and 1 million Arabs. Now, what people don't get is these are Israeli citizens, OUTSIDE the Palestinian areas (where the residents are NOT Israeli citizens). In other words, 20% of the Israeli populace is Israeli-Arab, with full rights as citizens, and a waiver from IDF mandatory service to prevent conflicts of interest for them.

Now, take the Palestinian controlled areas, Gaza and the WEst Bank. Israel, in a concession towards peace in 2005, forcibly and against its citizens wishes pulled all Jews out of Gaza, and gave Gaza over to PA control. The West Bank has a majority Arabs, with around 650k Jews living in settlements therein.

When Palestinians talk about a 2 state solution, they want the settlements dismantled. Why? Why did Israel have to force all Jews out of Gaza? I mean, fully 20% of its citizens are Arabs, with the most freedom of any Arabs in the Middle East (go ask any Israeli-Arab if 1) they would rather live in, say, Saudi ARabia, and 2) if they plan on moving to a Palestinian state, once created? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no, and no). If Israel kicked those 1 million Israeli-Arabs out, there'd be an international outcry. BUt when the Palestinians insist on doing just that, ethnically cleansing all Jews from their land, no one says a peep.

Why can't there be Palestinian-Jews, Jews living under Palestinian control, just as there are Israeli-Arabs in Israel? Why is 20% of Israel Arab, and growing, but Palestinian land must be 'Jew-free'?


I'm going to go pop some popcorn.

There were over one thousand villages in Palestine at the turn of the 19th century. Jerusalem, Haifa, Gaza, Jaffa, Nablus, Acre, Jericho, Ramle, Hebron and Nazareth were flourishing towns. The hills were painstakingly terraced. Irrigation ditches crisscrossed the land. The citrus orchards, olive groves and grains of Palestine were known throughout the world. Trade, crafts, textiles, cottage industry and agricultural production abounded.

Eighteenth and 19th century travellers’ accounts are replete with the data, as were the scholarly quarterly reports published in the 19th century by the British Palestine Exploration Fund.

In fact, it was precisely the social cohesiveness and stability of Palestinian society which led Lord Palmerston, in 1840, when Britain had established a consulate in Jerusalem, to propose, presciently, the founding of a European Jewish settler colony to “preserve the larger interests of the British Empire”.

Joy Bonds et. al., Our Roots Are Still Alive – The Story of the Palestinian People (New York: Institute for Independent Social Journalism, Peoples Press, 1977), p.13.


In 1896, Theodor Herzl set forth his plan for inducing the Ottoman Empire to grant Palestine to the Zionist movement:

Supposing his Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine; we could, in return, undertake to regulate the finances of Turkey. We should there form an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.

Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State (London: 1896)



With the expulsion of the Palestinians and the destruction of their towns and villages, vast amounts of property were seized under the rubric of the "Absentee Property Law" (1950).

Until 1947, Jewish land ownership in Palestine was some 6%. By the time the state was formally established, it had sequestered 90% of the land

The seizure of Palestinian property was indispensable to make Israel a viable state. Between 1948 and 1953, 370 Jewish towns and settlements were established.

Three hundred fifty were on "absentee" property.

By 1954, some 35% of Israel’s Jews lived on property confiscated from absentees and some 250,000 new immigrants settled in urban areas from which Palestinians had been expelled. Entire cities had been emptied of Palestinians, such as Jaffa, Acre, Lydda, Ramle, Bisan and Majdal (Ashqelon).



A detailed analysis of this process can be found in Janet Abu Lughod’s The Demographic Transformation of Palestine, in Ibrahim Abu Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine

 

[lutherblsstt]

How is the question ridiculous? You act as if the I/P situation is the root cause of all the instability in the world, particularly between the islamic world and the west.

No,I said "just so happens that the US government treats Israel as if it was a part of the United States and an inordinate amount of our tax dollars go to Israel,which I think is absurd.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of the world’s major sources of instability. Americans are directly connected to this conflict, and increasingly imperiled by its devastation.

For example,during Fiscal Year 2009, the U.S. is providing Israel with at least $7.0 million per day in military aid (http://opencrs.com/getfile.php?rid=80868)"

I am pointing out that there are many hot spots throught the world involving radical muslims who refuse to get along with their nonmuslim neighbors and have absolutely nothing to do with Israel.

It is not that they refuse to get along,there is something else going on here:

http://www.voanews.com/english/archive/2005-07/2005-07-22-voa1.cfm?CFID=246102291&CFTOKEN=83247602&jsessionid=00301c32df6b1dabf98333f692b50624a304

Study Examines Suicide Bombers' Motives

"University of Chicago Professor Robert Pape has collected evidence and developed a database on more than 300 suicide attacks that have occurred around the world since 1980

Mr. Pape is the director of the Chicago Project on Suicide Terrorism, and has just published a book called Dying to Win, the Strategic Logic of Suicide Terrorism.

During a recent appearance on the VOA public affairs program, Press Conference USA, Mr. Pape says his research indicates that, every major suicide campaign has what he calls a secular and political goal, to compel democracies to withdraw military forces from areas the bombers view as their territory.

"Iraq is a prime example of the strategic logic of suicide terrorism. Before the American invasion in March 2003, Iraq never experienced a suicide terrorist attack in its history. Since the invasion of 2003, suicide terrorism has been growing rapidly. Suicide terrorism has doubled in Iraq every year that 140,000 American combat forces have been stationed in the country, and we are on pace now to set a new record for the year."

Mr. Pape says suicide terrorism is not primarily a product of Islamic fundamentalism, although he says religion is used as a recruiting and fundraising tool.

He says the world's leading suicide terrorist group is the Tamil Tigers, a secular Hindu group in Sri Lanka.

Mr. Pape says the Tamil Tigers have committed more suicide attacks than the Palestinian militant groups Hamas and Islamic Jihad.

He says the objective of compelling countries to withdraw military forces from territory the terrorists perceive as occupied has been the central goal of suicide campaigns in Lebanon, Israel, Sri Lanka and among separatists in the Russian republic of Chechnya and the disputed region of Kashmir, which is divided between India and Pakistan.

"Suicide terrorism is mainly a response to the presence of foreign military troops, that is mainly a response to the threat of foreign occupation, not Islamic fundamentalism," he said.

"This is a terribly important finding, because it means that the use of heavy military force to transform Muslim societies is only likely to increase suicide terrorists coming at us."

He says during the 1970's and 1980's, the United States successfully managed its interests in the region by not permanently stationing troops in Muslim countries, but maintaining the ability to rapidly deploy military forces to hot spots when necessary."



Mr. Pape says his study of hundreds of suicide bombers who actually killed themselves to kill others indicates that most are educated and do not fit the common profile of a person who engages in self-destructive behavior.

"What you see is very few fit the standard stereotype of a depressed, lonely individual on the margins of society seeking to escape some wretched existence. That is, very few are suicidal in the ordinary sense of that term. Instead, most are socially integrated, productive members of their community," he said.

 

[roids1]

I never mentioned suicide bombings or foreign occupation of their countries. I would expect there to be an insurgency anytime a foreign military occupies another country.

My point was that the arabs would be fighting among each other and attacking jews, whether or not the state of Israel existed or not. Would the KKK disband if all blacks and jews left the USA? Of course not. They would find another cause. The radical islamists would do the same if all jews packed up and GTFO of Israel next week.

 

[devil]

An interesting piece of info:

"In the post-1967 territories of occupation, a Palestinian cannot plant a tomato without a permit from the Israeli government. He or she cannot plant an eggplant without such a permit. You cannot whitewash your house. You can’t fix a pane of glass. You can’t sink a well.

Since 1967, more than 300,000 Palestinian youth have passed through Israeli prisons under conditions of institutional torture. Amnesty International concluded that there is no country in the world in which the use of official and sustained torture is as well-established and documented as in the case of the state of Israel.

Twenty-one years after the Israeli seizure of Gaza, the Los Angeles Times described its consequences:

Only about 2,200 Jewish settlers live in the Gaza Strip, which was captured from Egypt, but they occupy about 30% of the 135 square mile area. More than 650,000 Palestinians, mostly refugees, are squeezed into about half the strip, making it one of the most densely populated areas in the world. The rest of Gaza’s land has been designated restricted border zones by the army."


Dan Fisher, Los Angeles Times, November 11, 1987

Also see:

Torture And Ill Treatment Of Detainees In Israel
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/WO0906/S00347.htm

For someone that claims to be an educator you don't seem to have very sound listening skills. You ignored all of my points and just continued your rant. I simply stated some facts which you seemingly have an inability to process because it shoots holes in your rhetoric.

I support a withdrawl from the West Bank. However, in my mind it should go back to Jordan. It was their land, let them sort out the mess they initiated by attacking Israel and losing the land in the first place. I think Egypt should take back Gaza and also take charge of sorting out that mess. This was Egyptian territory prior to Israel capturing it.

An additional side note that people such as yourself forget about Gaza...it's sealed off on the Egyptian side as well. Yet this continues to be an issue that only Israel is demonized for. Why??????????/

 

[poison]

There were over one thousand villages in Palestine at the turn of the 19th century. Jerusalem, Haifa, Gaza, Jaffa, Nablus, Acre, Jericho, Ramle, Hebron and Nazareth were flourishing towns. The hills were painstakingly terraced. Irrigation ditches crisscrossed the land. The citrus orchards, olive groves and grains of Palestine were known throughout the world. Trade, crafts, textiles, cottage industry and agricultural production abounded.

Eighteenth and 19th century travellers’ accounts are replete with the data, as were the scholarly quarterly reports published in the 19th century by the British Palestine Exploration Fund.

In fact, it was precisely the social cohesiveness and stability of Palestinian society which led Lord Palmerston, in 1840, when Britain had established a consulate in Jerusalem, to propose, presciently, the founding of a European Jewish settler colony to “preserve the larger interests of the British Empire”.

Joy Bonds et. al., Our Roots Are Still Alive – The Story of the Palestinian People (New York: Institute for Independent Social Journalism, Peoples Press, 1977), p.13.


In 1896, Theodor Herzl set forth his plan for inducing the Ottoman Empire to grant Palestine to the Zionist movement:

Supposing his Majesty the Sultan were to give us Palestine; we could, in return, undertake to regulate the finances of Turkey. We should there form an outpost of civilization as opposed to barbarism.

Theodor Herzl, The Jewish State (London: 1896)



With the expulsion of the Palestinians and the destruction of their towns and villages, vast amounts of property were seized under the rubric of the "Absentee Property Law" (1950).

Until 1947, Jewish land ownership in Palestine was some 6%. By the time the state was formally established, it had sequestered 90% of the land

The seizure of Palestinian property was indispensable to make Israel a viable state. Between 1948 and 1953, 370 Jewish towns and settlements were established.

Three hundred fifty were on "absentee" property.

By 1954, some 35% of Israel’s Jews lived on property confiscated from absentees and some 250,000 new immigrants settled in urban areas from which Palestinians had been expelled. Entire cities had been emptied of Palestinians, such as Jaffa, Acre, Lydda, Ramle, Bisan and Majdal (Ashqelon).



A detailed analysis of this process can be found in Janet Abu Lughod’s The Demographic Transformation of Palestine, in Ibrahim Abu Lughod, ed., The Transformation of Palestine

Lol @ Palestinian social cohesiveness and flourishing towns in the 1800's. In 1880, the American consul in Jerusalem reported the area was continuing its historic decline.

"The population and wealth of Palestine has not increased during the last forty years," he said.

The Report of the Palestine Royal Commission quotes an account of the Maritime Plain in 1913:

The road leading from Gaza to the north was only a summer track suitable for transport by camels and carts...no orange groves, orchards or vineyards were to be seen until one reached [the Jewish village of] Yabna [Yavne]....Houses were all of mud. No windows were anywhere to be seen....The ploughs used were of wood....The yields were very poor....The sanitary conditions in the village were horrible. Schools did not exist....The western part, towards the sea, was almost a desert....The villages in this area were few and thinly populated. Many ruins of villages were scattered over the area, as owing to the prevalence of malaria, many villages were deserted by their inhabitants.13

Lewis French, the British Director of Development wrote of Palestine:

We found it inhabited by fellahin who lived in mud hovels and suffered severely from the prevalent malaria....Large areas...were uncultivated....The fellahin, if not themselves cattle thieves, were always ready to harbor these and other criminals. The individual plots...changed hands annually. There was little public security, and the fellahin's lot was an alternation of pillage and blackmail by their neighbors, the Bedouin.14

Mark Twain, who visited Palestine in 1867, described it as: “...[a] desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds-a silent mournful expanse....A desolation is here that not even imagination can grace with the pomp of life and action....We never saw a human being on the whole route....There was hardly a tree or a shrub anywhere. Even the olive and the cactus, those fast friends of the worthless soil, had almost deserted the country.”17

EDIT: Palestine pre-Aliyah was a ****hole. Large portions of Israel were marshy swamp, hence the massive outbreaks of malaria. The Jews imported and planted many eucalyptus, which can suck up and evaporate immense amounts of water, and grows very fast as well. By the early 1900's, the swams were mostly gone.

Some Arabs even thought the Jews would be a blessing to Palestine:

Dawood Barakat, editor of the Egyptian paper Al-Ahram, wrote: "It is absolutely necessary that an entente be made between the Zionists and Arabs, because the war of words can only do evil. The Zionists are necessary for the country: The money which they will bring, their knowledge and intelligence, and the industriousness which characterizes them will contribute without doubt to the regeneration of the country."15

According to Sherif Hussein, the guardian of the Islamic Holy Places in Arabia:

The resources of the country are still virgin soil and will be developed by the Jewish immigrants. One of the most amazing things until recent times was that the Palestinian used to leave his country, wandering over the high seas in every direction. His native soil could not retain a hold on him, though his ancestors had lived on it for 1000 years. At the same time we have seen the Jews from foreign countries streaming to Palestine from Russia, Germany, Austria, Spain, America. The cause of causes could not escape those who had a gift of deeper insight. They knew that the country was for its original sons (abna'ihi*l*asliyin), for all their differences, a sacred and beloved homeland. The return of these exiles (jaliya) to their homeland will prove materially and spiritually [to be] an experimental school for their brethren who are with them in the fields, factories, trades and in all things connected with toil and labor.16

In light of this, the following makes more sense:

In 1920, Labor Zionist leader David Ben-Gurion expressed his concern about the Arab fellahin, whom he viewed as "the most important asset of the native population." Ben-Gurion said "under no circumstances must we touch land belonging to fellahs or worked by them." He advocated helping liberate them from their oppressors. "Only if a fellah leaves his place of settlement," Ben-Gurion added, "should we offer to buy his land, at an appropriate price."19

It was only after the Jews had bought all of the available uncultivated land that they began to purchase cultivated land. Many Arabs were willing to sell because of the migration to coastal towns and because they needed money to invest in the citrus industry.20

When John Hope Simpson arrived in Palestine in May 1930, he observed: "They [Jews] paid high prices for the land, and in addition they paid to certain of the occupants of those lands a considerable amount of money which they were not legally bound to pay."21

In 1931, Lewis French conducted a survey of landlessness and eventually offered new plots to any Arabs who had been "dispossessed." British officials received more than 3,000 applications, of which 80 percent were ruled invalid by the Government's legal adviser because the applicants were not landless Arabs. This left only about 600 landless Arabs, 100 of whom accepted the Government land offer.22

In April 1936, a new outbreak of Arab attacks on Jews was instigated by a Syrian guerrilla named Fawzi al*Qawukji, the commander of the Arab Liberation Army. By November, when the British finally sent a new commission headed by Lord Peel to investigate, 89 Jews had been killed and more than 300 wounded.23

The Peel Commission's report found that Arab complaints about Jewish land acquisition were baseless. It pointed out that "much of the land now carrying orange groves was sand dunes or swamp and uncultivated when it was purchased....there was at the time of the earlier sales little evidence that the owners possessed either the resources or training needed to develop the land."24 Moreover, the Commission found the shortage was "due less to the amount of land acquired by Jews than to the increase in the Arab population." The report concluded that the presence of Jews in Palestine, along with the work of the British Administration, had resulted in higher wages, an improved standard of living and ample employment opportunities.25

In his memoirs, Transjordan's King Abdullah wrote:

It is made quite clear to all, both by the map drawn up by the Simpson Commission and by another compiled by the Peel Commission, that the Arabs are as prodigal in selling their land as they are in useless wailing and weeping (emphasis in the original).26

Even at the height of the Arab revolt in 1938, the British High Commissioner to Palestine believed the Arab landowners were complaining about sales to Jews to drive up prices for lands they wished to sell. Many Arab landowners had been so terrorized by Arab rebels they decided to leave Palestine and sell their property to the Jews.27

The Jews were paying exorbitant prices to wealthy landowners for small tracts of arid land. "In 1944, Jews paid between $1,000 and $1,100 per acre in Palestine, mostly for arid or semiarid land; in the same year, rich black soil in Iowa was selling for about $110 per acre."28

By 1947, Jewish holdings in Palestine amounted to about 463,000 acres. Approximately 45,000 of these acres were acquired from the Mandatory Government; 30,000 were bought from various churches and 387,500 were purchased from Arabs. Analyses of land purchases from 1880 to 1948 show that 73 percent of Jewish plots were purchased from large landowners, not poor fellahin.29 Those who sold land included the mayors of Gaza, Jerusalem and Jaffa. As'ad el*Shuqeiri, a Muslim religious scholar and father of PLO chairman Ahmed Shuqeiri, took Jewish money for his land. Even King Abdullah leased land to the Jews. In fact, many leaders of the Arab nationalist movement, including members of the Muslim Supreme Council, sold land to Jews.30

Now, there were 250,000-400,000 Arabs in Palestine in 1890. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.

Jerusalem had a Jewish majority since 1896, but probably not before.

As for seized land, well...it was not 'sequestered'. Israel did not attack the Arabs in 47-48, the Arabs attacked Israel. The Palestinian residents heeded the calls of the surrounding countries, which promised death to all the Jews and a quick victorious war, and fled to allow the Arab countries to attack. They gambled that the attacking force of nearly the whole ARab world would win, and lost.

Land seized in a defensive war is, by international law, to the victor. That land was British land the day before they attacked, not Palestinian. The Brits gave half to them, they pissed it away.



And just for fun:

When the distinguished Arab-American historian, Princeton University Prof. Philip Hitti, testified against partition before the Anglo-American Committee in 1946, he said: "There is no such thing as 'Palestine' in history, absolutely not." In fact, Palestine is never explicitly mentioned in the Koran, rather it is called "the holy land" (al-Arad al-Muqaddash).

Prior to partition, Palestinian Arabs did not view themselves as having a separate identity. When the First Congress of Muslim-Christian Associations met in Jerusalem in February 1919 to choose Palestinian representatives for the Paris Peace Conference, the following resolution was adopted:

We consider Palestine as part of Arab Syria, as it has never been separated from it at any time. We are connected with it by national, religious, linguistic, natural, economic and geographical bonds.

In 1937, a local Arab leader, Auni Bey Abdul-Hadi, told the Peel Commission, which ultimately suggested the partition of Palestine: "There is no such country [as Palestine]! 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented! There is no Palestine in the Bible. Our country was for centuries part of Syria."

The representative of the Arab Higher Committee to the United Nations submitted a statement to the General Assembly in May 1947 that said "Palestine was part of the Province of Syria" and that, "politically, the Arabs of Palestine were not independent in the sense of forming a separate political entity." A few years later, Ahmed Shuqeiri, later the chairman of the PLO, told the Security Council: "It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria."

 

[poison]

Answer me this. Israel is approximately 6mil people, 5 million Jews and 1 million Arabs. Now, what people don't get is these are Israeli citizens, OUTSIDE the Palestinian areas (where the residents are NOT Israeli citizens). In other words, 20% of the Israeli populace is Israeli-Arab, with full rights as citizens, and a waiver from IDF mandatory service to prevent conflicts of interest for them.

Now, take the Palestinian controlled areas, Gaza and the WEst Bank. Israel, in a concession towards peace in 2005, forcibly and against its citizens wishes pulled all Jews out of Gaza, and gave Gaza over to PA control. The West Bank has a majority Arabs, with around 650k Jews living in settlements therein.

When Palestinians talk about a 2 state solution, they want the settlements dismantled. Why? Why did Israel have to force all Jews out of Gaza? I mean, fully 20% of its citizens are Arabs, with the most freedom of any Arabs in the Middle East (go ask any Israeli-Arab if 1) they would rather live in, say, Saudi ARabia, and 2) if they plan on moving to a Palestinian state, once created? I'll give you a hint, the answer is no, and no). If Israel kicked those 1 million Israeli-Arabs out, there'd be an international outcry. BUt when the Palestinians insist on doing just that, ethnically cleansing all Jews from their land, no one says a peep.

Why can't there be Palestinian-Jews, Jews living under Palestinian control, just as there are Israeli-Arabs in Israel? Why is 20% of Israel Arab, and growing, but Palestinian land must be 'Jew-free'?

Why, luther?

 

[TexasTitan]

“Whatever I do is done out of sheer joy; I drop my fruits like a ripe tree. What the general reader or the critic makes of them is not my concern.”

"Im a ****ing retard and justify it by saying, the implications of what I say are not my problem."

 

[roids1]

"Im a ****ing retard and justify it by saying, the implications of what I say are not my problem."

If he drops anymore of his fruits, he's gonna need a padded room and possibly a drool cup.

 

[rabbievil]

hes blinded from the truth because of his hatred for jews.

 

[poison]

I wouldn't go that far. He probably has Jewish friends, and doesn't discriminate against them in daily life. He could be a closet neo-nazi, but more likely he's the product of an intellectual background, probably went to a very liberal university, like UC Berkeley, and probably bought what he was told hook, line, and sinker. Who knows?

 

[rabbievil]

I wouldn't go that far. He probably has Jewish friends, and doesn't discriminate against them in daily life. He could be a closet neo-nazi, but more likely he's the product of an intellectual background, probably went to a very liberal university, like UC Berkeley, and probably bought what he was told hook, line, and sinker. Who knows?

so that makes it ok he spreads mainstream propaganda?i have a general rule in life.if you prove my point to be wrong,i cease to have it.no matter how many people show him his point is wrong,he still believes it.learn to think for yourself,not what people feed you.

 

[TexasTitan]

"Im a ****ing retard and justify it by saying, its not my fault if youre too dumb to see that Im a ****ing moron."

New and improved.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Lol @ Palestinian social cohesiveness and flourishing towns in the 1800's. In 1880, the American consul in Jerusalem reported the area was continuing its historic decline.







EDIT: Palestine pre-Aliyah was a ****hole. Large portions of Israel were marshy swamp, hence the massive outbreaks of malaria. The Jews imported and planted many eucalyptus, which can suck up and evaporate immense amounts of water, and grows very fast as well. By the early 1900's, the swams were mostly gone.

Some Arabs even thought the Jews would be a blessing to Palestine:





In light of this, the following makes more sense:




Now, there were 250,000-400,000 Arabs in Palestine in 1890. Zionist settlement between 1880 and 1948 did not displace or dispossess Palestinians. Every indication is that there was net Arab immigration into Palestine in this period, and that the economic situation of Palestinian Arabs improved tremendously under the British Mandate relative to surrounding countries. By 1948, there were approximately 1.35 million Arabs and 650,000 Jews living between the Jordan and the Mediterranean, more Arabs than had ever lived in Palestine before, and more Jews than had lived there since Roman times. Analysis of population by sub-districts shows that Arab population tended to increase the most between 1931 and 1948 in the same areas where there were large proportions of Jews. Therefore, Zionist immigration did not displace Arabs.

Jerusalem had a Jewish majority since 1896, but probably not before.

As for seized land, well...it was not 'sequestered'. Israel did not attack the Arabs in 47-48, the Arabs attacked Israel. The Palestinian residents heeded the calls of the surrounding countries, which promised death to all the Jews and a quick victorious war, and fled to allow the Arab countries to attack. They gambled that the attacking force of nearly the whole ARab world would win, and lost.

Land seized in a defensive war is, by international law, to the victor. That land was British land the day before they attacked, not Palestinian. The Brits gave half to them, they pissed it away.



And just for fun:

The land without a people for a people without a land was in fact a country in ferment against colonial subjugation.

Former Prime Minister and Foreign Secretary Arthur Balfour, himself, was brutally explicit in memoranda for the eyes of officials, despite the lip service for public consumption about the “civil and religious rights of the non-Jewish [sic] communities in Palestine”.

Zionism, be it right or wrong, good or bad is rooted in present needs, in future hopes of far profounder import than the desires of the 700,000-plus Arabs who now inhabit that ancient land.

One of the ideological forbears of Zionism, Vladimir Jabotinsky, is known as the founder of “Revisionist Zionism”, the Zionist current which had little patience with the liberal and socialist facade employed by the “labor” Zionists. [Revisionist Zionism is represented today by Menachem Begin and Yitzhak Shamir.]

In 1923 Jabotinsky wrote The Iron Wall, which could be called a benchmark essay for the entire Zionist movement. He set forth bluntly the essential premises of Zionism which had, indeed, been laid out before, if not as eloquently, by Theodor Herzl, Chaim Weizmann and others. Jabotinsky’s reasoning has been cited and reflected in subsequent Zionist advocacy – from nominal “left” to so-called “right”. He wrote as follows:

There can be no discussion of voluntary reconciliation between us and the Arabs, not now, and not in the foreseeable future. All well-meaning people, with the exception of those blind from birth, understood long ago the complete impossibility of arriving at a voluntary agreement with the Arabs of Palestine for the transformation of Palestine from an Arab country to a country with a Jewish majority. Each of you has some general understanding of the history of colonization. Try to find even one example when the colonization of a country took place with the agreement of the native population. Such an event has never occurred.

The natives will always struggle obstinately against the colonists – and it is all the same whether they are cultured or uncultured. The comrades in arms of [Hernan] Cortez or [Francisco] Pizarro conducted themselves like brigands. The Redskins fought with uncompromising fervor against both evil and good-hearted colonizers. The natives struggled because any kind of colonization anywhere at anytime is inadmissible to any native people.

Any native people view their country as their national home, of which they will be complete masters. They will never voluntarily allow a new master. So it is for the Arabs. Compromisers among us try to convince us that the Arabs are some kind of fools who can be tricked with hidden formulations of our basic goals. I flatly refuse to accept this view of the Palestinian Arabs.

They have the precise psychology that we have. They look upon Palestine with the same instinctive love and true fervor that any Aztec looked upon his Mexico or any Sioux upon his prairie. Each people will struggle against colonizers until the last spark of hope that they can avoid the dangers of conquest and colonization is extinguished. The Palestinians will struggle in this way until there is hardly a spark of hope.

It matters not what kind of words we use to explain our colonization. Colonization has its own integral and inescapable meaning understood by every Jew and by every Arab. Colonization has only one goal. This is in the nature of things. To change that nature is impossible. It has been necessary to carry on colonization against the will of the Palestinian Arabs and the same condition exists now.

Even an agreement with non-Palestinians represents the same kind of fantasy. In order for Arab nationalists of Baghdad and Mecca and Damascus to agree to pay so serious a price they would have to refuse to maintain the Arab character of Palestine.

We cannot give any compensation for Palestine, neither to the Palestinians nor to other Arabs. Therefore, a voluntary agreement is inconceivable. All colonization, even the most restricted, must continue in defiance of the will of the native population. Therefore, it can continue and develop only under the shield of force which comprises an Iron Wall through which the local population can never break through. This is our Arab policy. To formulate it any other way would be hypocrisy.

Whether through the Balfour Declaration or the Mandate, external force is a necessity for establishing in the country conditions of rule and defense through which the local population, regardless of what it wishes, will be deprived of the possibility of impeding our colonization, administratively or physically. Force must play its role – with strength and without indulgence. In this, there are no meaningful differences between our militarists and our vegetarians. One prefers an Iron Wall of Jewish bayonets; the other an Iron Wall of English bayonets.

To the hackneyed reproach that this point of view is unethical, I answer, ’absolutely untrue.’ This is our ethic. There is no other ethic. As long as there is the faintest spark of hope for the Arabs to impede us, they will not sell these hopes – not for any sweet words nor for any tasty morsel, because this is not a rabble but a people, a living people. And no people makes such enormous concessions on such fateful questions, except when there is no hope left, until we have removed every opening visible in the Iron Wall.

The Iron Wall – “O Zheleznoi Stene” – Rassvet, November 4, 1923

 

[lutherblsstt]

Why, luther?

In fact, until the Balfour Declaration [1917], the Palestinian response to Zionist settlements was unwisely tolerant.

There was no organized Jew-hatred in Palestine, no massacres such as the Czar and Polish anti-Semites prepared, no racist counterpart in the Palestinian response to armed colonists (who used force wherever possible to drive Palestinians from the land).

Not even spontaneous riots, expressing pent up Palestinian rage at the steady theft of their land, were directed at Jews as such.

 

[lutherblsstt]

"Im a ****ing retard and justify it by saying, the implications of what I say are not my problem."

“Write how you want, the critic shall show the world you could have written better.”

Oliver Goldsmith

 

[lutherblsstt]

I wouldn't go that far. He probably has Jewish friends, and doesn't discriminate against them in daily life. He could be a closet neo-nazi, but more likely he's the product of an intellectual background, probably went to a very liberal university, like UC Berkeley, and probably bought what he was told hook, line, and sinker. Who knows?

Interesting vid for you (though I doubt you will watch it with your fixed mindset)

DESCRIPTION




“Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land” provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.

Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, “Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land” carefully analyzes and explains how--through the use of language, framing and context--the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied territories appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one.

The documentary also explores the ways that U.S. journalists, for reasons ranging from intimidation to a lack of thorough investigation, have become complicit in carrying out Israel's PR campaign. At its core, the documentary raises questions about the ethics and role of journalism, and the relationship between media and politics. "

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=169

 

[lutherblsstt]

hes blinded from the truth because of his hatred for jews.

Israel and Jews are 2 different things,I hate neither but conflating criticism of a government's policies with hatred for an ethnic group makes little if any sense.

 

[roids1]

For a sec, I thought JW was gonna show us that he had a swastica tatooed on his back! :bigeyes:

 

[poison]

In fact, until the Balfour Declaration [1917], the Palestinian response to Zionist settlements was unwisely tolerant.

There was no organized Jew-hatred in Palestine, no massacres such as the Czar and Polish anti-Semites prepared, no racist counterpart in the Palestinian response to armed colonists (who used force wherever possible to drive Palestinians from the land).

Not even spontaneous riots, expressing pent up Palestinian rage at the steady theft of their land, were directed at Jews as such.

You didn't answer my question.

 

[poison]

Interesting vid for you (though I doubt you will watch it with your fixed mindset)

DESCRIPTION




“Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land” provides a striking comparison of U.S. and international media coverage of the crisis in the Middle East, zeroing in on how structural distortions in U.S. coverage have reinforced false perceptions of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. This pivotal documentary exposes how the foreign policy interests of American political elites--oil, and a need to have a secure military base in the region, among others--work in combination with Israeli public relations strategies to exercise a powerful influence over how news from the region is reported.

Through the voices of scholars, media critics, peace activists, religious figures, and Middle East experts, “Peace, Propaganda & the Promised Land” carefully analyzes and explains how--through the use of language, framing and context--the Israeli occupation of the West Bank and Gaza remains hidden in the news media, and Israeli colonization of the occupied territories appears to be a defensive move rather than an offensive one.

The documentary also explores the ways that U.S. journalists, for reasons ranging from intimidation to a lack of thorough investigation, have become complicit in carrying out Israel's PR campaign. At its core, the documentary raises questions about the ethics and role of journalism, and the relationship between media and politics. "

http://www.freedocumentaries.org/film.php?id=169

What does that have to do with what I said?

 

[poison]

“Cut and paste how you want, the critic shall show the world you could have written better.”

Oliver Goldsmith

Edited for accuracy.

 

[OSF Jeff]

Some interesting reading/opinions in here. I was going to post more than this, but I have decided to refrain and instead let you guys argue it out.

I will say though that using slander and name calling is typically an indication that you don't have a valid counter point, and is done so as to win favor of your weak argument (or lack there of) by labeling the opponent as a hater..etc.

 

[rabbievil]

Israel and Jews are 2 different things,I hate neither but conflating criticism of a government's policies with hatred for an ethnic group makes little if any sense.

then you need to make it clear in all your posts,that you mean the isreali government.your so called facts are still wrong.

 

[lutherblsstt]

Edited for accuracy.

I should have cut and pasted the following in response to Texas Titan:

"Sidetrack opponents with name calling and ridicule. This is also known as the primary 'attack the messenger' ploy, though other methods qualify as variants of that approach.

Associate opponents with unpopular titles such as 'kooks', 'right-wing', 'liberal', 'left-wing', 'terrorists', 'conspiracy buffs', 'radicals', 'militia', 'racists', 'religious fanatics', 'sexual deviates', and so forth.

This makes others shrink from support out of fear of gaining the same label, and you avoid dealing with issues."--H. Michael Sweeney

http://www.whale.to/m/disin.html

 

[lutherblsstt]

then you need to make it clear in all your posts,that you mean the isreali government.your so called facts are still wrong.

No I don't,you need to pay attention and stop mentally inserting jews in places where it reads Israel.

 

[lutherblsstt]

"The first step in his strategy is to isolate and marginalize the radicals. They're the ones who see the inherent structural problems that need remedying if indeed a particular change is to occur. To isolate them, PR firms will try to create a perception in the public mind that people advocating fundamental solutions are terrorists, extremists, fearmongers, outsiders, communists, or whatever."--John Stauber

http://www.whale.to/m/stauber.html

 

[lutherblsstt]

"A truth's initial commotion is directly proportional to how deeply the lie was believed. When a well-packaged web of lies has been sold gradually to the masses over generations, the truth will seem utterly preposterous and its speaker, a raving lunatic. --Dresden James

 

[roids1]

God luv ya luther!

 

[lutherblsstt]

The US economy is imploding and will continue to do so. As people lose their homes, are unable to feed their famlies, and drown in a sea of debt; the last thing they want to hear is that their tax dollars are being shipped off to some country half way across the world and that any voice of protest obviously means they are minority hating bigots.

I can't think of any other nation where wanting to cut off their foreign aid to them would create such a response. Over time, as the economy worsens, this attitude will backfire.

Of course, what isn't touched on is that the US government has a stake in keeping the conflict going. Israel, and the Arab nations we bribe not to attack them, are the few reliable remaining customers for US weapons on the international market. That is only because we give them generous aid packages to buy said weapons. The folks at Lockheed and GE do not want the make work program to come to an end.

By the way,one more great interview:

Ira Chernus, professor of religious studies at the University of Colorado at Boulder, discusses the dominant narrative of Israel: a vulnerable Western-style democracy in a sea of hostile Arab nations, the destructiveness of race and class based stereotypes, the Israeli and Palestinian peace groups ignored by the media and the lessening stigma of publicly criticizing Israel.


http://dissentradio.com/radio/09_06_25_chernus.mp3

 

[poison]

You didn't answer my question.

Still waiting.

 

[poison]

Some interesting reading/opinions in here. I was going to post more than this, but I have decided to refrain and instead let you guys argue it out.

I will say though that using slander and name calling is typically an indication that you don't have a valid counter point, and is done so as to win favor of your weak argument (or lack there of) by labeling the opponent as a hater..etc.

Why stop, jump in.

Whoa, hold up.

Heroes: Those who stand in defense of what they believe in regardless of whether they are right or wrong.

Heil Hitler. Mission Accomplished. 'Dear Leader'.

 

[rabbievil]

No I don't,you need to pay attention and stop mentally inserting jews in places where it reads Israel.

hmmm,what people make up isreali gov,jews.your just a ****in moron.why dont you worry about yourself instead of international affairs you dont seem to comprehend.

 

[JW32Hoops]

Whoa, hold up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by OSF Jeff
Heroes: Those who stand in defense of what they believe in regardless of whether they are right or wrong.


Heil Hitler. Mission Accomplished. 'Dear Leader'.

spot on brutha

 

[OSF Jeff]

Why stop, jump in.
Whoa, hold up.
Heil Hitler. Mission Accomplished. 'Dear Leader'.

I have respect for those who walk the talk, instead of those who fold when things get tough. However, said respect does not mean I agree or admire them.

I'll go ahead and add my two cents since you so nicely requested it.

After reading over this thread, I realized that it was riddled with a lot of the same nonsense that gets parroted through out the media. Strapping a bomb to your chest and then detonating in a crowd of people is no different than shooting a rocket into a crowd of people. Its not the method used that determines what is and is not terror but rather the intent behind it.

Several people(s) or tribes have inhabited the area of Israel throughout the ages. The majority of which have had a rightful claim to it based on the fact that they are considered as one of the Twelve Tribes of Israel. The Palastinians are no exception to this. Originally in the Old and New Testaments, and in the two major languages of those times (Hebrew and Greek) the term Jew never existed and was instead translated to Judean. A Judean being in reference to one from Judea, one of the Twelve Tribes. An examination of the Jewish Encyclopedia confirms this and goes to state that Jews aka Judiaism (a religion) traces it's origins back to that of the Pharisee. The same group that was the controlling religious sect during the time of Christ.

Far to often people attach Israel and Jews as being synonomous, but the reality is they represent only a small faction of those who are actually considered as Judean to begin with. Judeans are comprised of multiple religions and various offshoots of ethnic and/or racial backgrounds from the original inhabitants of Judea. Unfortunately in todays time to many folks have been lead to believe all sorts of misinformation which leads us to discussions such as this thread.

My personal opinion on the whole Israel/Palastine issue is that both sides are antagonists, and that we should pull all support from that region and let them fight it out. Whoever is left standing is the winner.

 

[OSF Jeff]

hmmm,what people make up isreali gov,jews.your just a ****in moron.why dont you worry about yourself instead of international affairs you dont seem to comprehend.

That's a poor example because both Christians and Muslims reside in Israel as well.


That would have been like saying that everyone who has critized America for the past 100 years was secretly anti Christian because the people who filled the government were Christian.

:tool: