IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement - AnabolicMinds.com

IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement

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  1. lutherblsstt
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    IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement


    By Amos Harel, Haaretz Correspondent

    During Operation Cast Lead, Israeli forces killed Palestinian civilians under permissive rules of engagement and intentionally destroyed their property, say soldiers who fought in the offensive.

    The soldiers are graduates of the Yitzhak Rabin pre-military preparatory course at Oranim Academic College in Tivon. Some of their statements made on Feb. 13 will appear Thursday and Friday in Haaretz. Dozens of graduates of the course who took part in the discussion fought in the Gaza operation.

    The speakers included combat pilots and infantry soldiers. Their testimony runs counter to the Israel Defense Forces' claims that Israeli troops observed a high level of moral behavior during the operation.

    The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."


    IDF in Gaza: Killing civilians, vandalism, and lax rules of engagement - Haaretz - Israel News

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    I've never approved of the IDF and the brutal tactics they have used against the Palestineans.
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    Our Media is Pro-Zionist. The IDF confiscates any material that they don't want reporters showing the rest of the world.

    Destroying civil infrastructure, stealing farm land, bulldozing homes, forcing unemployment and poverty on a population is definitely not justified by any means.

    Then ignorant Americans here call the Palestinians "terrorists" because they are fighting an oppressive force? Any American who would view the destruction would not think twice about supporting Israel anymore. President Carter criticized the Israelis and was immediately called anti-Semitic. Anyone who speaks against Israel is considered anti-Semitic. They are always quick to play the race card on people.

    We spend more money on Isreal than we do helping out the the 3rd world countries of this planet-COMBINED. The US spends 10k on each person, and for what? While the Palestinians don't even have reliable water and food supplies or even educational services.

    They have the record for most UN condemnations.

    As Americans it is UN-AMERICAN to help those who oppress people and take away their freedoms.

    On top of all that the Christian majority doesn't help the situation here in the United States. The crimes committed against Palestine are anything but christian.
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    The Palestinian Holocaust is getting much worse..
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    Quote Originally Posted by salras77 View Post
    The Palestinian Holocaust is getting much worse..
    You got that right.
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    Funny, if the palestinians and arabs would just agree to accepting israel's right to existence, there would have been a peace treaty long ago. But they still refuse to.
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    i think if the Israel people/govet would admit they STOLE Palestinian land the Palestinians would be satisfied enough to move on..... but neither one is going to happen
    people always look at the problem not the cause...
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    Quote Originally Posted by salras77 View Post
    i think if the Israel people/govet would admit they STOLE Palestinian land the Palestinians would be satisfied enough to move on..... but neither one is going to happen
    people always look at the problem not the cause...
    You are as crazy as luther. for one thing you can never fix the cause, you can only fix the problem. Second, if you think a letter of apology would make a bit of difference you are amazingly naive.

    Israel has repeatedly offered to negotiate on what land gets returned, outside of Abbas the palestinian's first offer has always been "All israeli pigs must die". Its hard to come up with a good counteroffer to that one. if Hamas even asked for a ridiculous amount of land in return for publicly acknowledging israel's right to exist as a nation, it would at least be a start.
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    Its a war. I cant believe ethics are even mentioned. War is war.

    They need to have it out once and for all. 1967 that **** and end it once and for all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Funny, if the palestinians and arabs would just agree to accepting israel's right to existence, there would have been a peace treaty long ago. But they still refuse to.
    This makes the intentional killing of unarmed civilians ok? Man you can justify just about anything can't you!
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    This makes the intentional killing of unarmed civilians ok? Man you can justify just about anything can't you!
    Man, you can misinterpret anything in the attempt to prove your case can't you?

    Can you name a single war anywhere on the planet at anytime in its history where civilians weren't killed by both sides?

    Does Hamas wear uniforms and battle on a field or do they dress as civilians and launch mortars from schools and hospitals? Does Hamas only target Israeli military or do they fire at Israeli schools and homes?

    Is any of this ok? No. Does it make any sense for Israel to do anything differently when Hamas says the only solution is the death of all Israelis? no.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Does Hamas wear uniforms and battle on a field or do they dress as civilians and launch mortars from schools and hospitals? Does Hamas only target Israeli military or do they fire at Israeli schools and homes?
    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072040.html

    "Another squad leader from the same brigade told of an incident where the company commander ordered that an elderly Palestinian woman be shot and killed; she was walking on a road about 100 meters from a house the company had commandeered.

    The squad leader said he argued with his commander over the permissive rules of engagement that allowed the clearing out of houses by shooting without warning the residents beforehand. After the orders were changed, the squad leader's soldiers complained that "we should kill everyone there [in the center of Gaza]. Everyone there is a terrorist."

    The squad leader said: "You do not get the impression from the officers that there is any logic to it, but they won't say anything. To write 'death to the Arabs' on the walls, to take family pictures and spit on them, just because you can. I think this is the main thing: To understand how much the IDF has fallen in the realm of ethics, really. It's what I'll remember the most."
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    Statements of individuals don't prove an overriding policy. Again with your first paragraph of shooting the woman, she was entering an area where residents were told not to be. If you can't establish zones of protection, it means that she could just as well be wearing 50lbs of C4 and going to destroy a bunker or tank.

    As for the rest, note that his bigger complaint is against the acts of his soldiers. The IDF as a policy had the loose rules of engagement, but it was individuals soldiers underneath the squad leader who spat on pictures and wrote on the wall. So either he gave them the orders, or they acted on their own.

    Again, its wonderful for you to have lived the world of privilege you have, and never experienced hardship. Have you ever had a gun pointed at you? I have. Did you go to school waiting for the possibility every day that your school could be hit by mortars because the Palestinians refuse to believe you have a right to live by their own leaders policy? Do you think that after 40 years of that you'd feel a little differently?
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    this is just too comical (sadly) reading some of the responses.

    First, Israelies didnt steal land, it was given to them, and the plan was in place going back to after WWI.

    Also, as Easy stated, you are looking at a negotiation where one side has been consistent in the demand that the other side no longer exists. How do you negotiate with that?

    Furthermore, there are artrocities on both sides, and to say it is a one-sided affair is laughable and shows your bias.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Reaper329 View Post
    First, Israelies didnt steal land, it was given to them, and the plan was in place going back to after WWI.
    well, they did steal land after that during wars with the various arab nations. They would be willing to return it all however for official recognition that they be allowed to exist. Doesn't sound like too much to ask
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Statements of individuals don't prove an overriding policy. Again with your first paragraph of shooting the woman, she was entering an area where residents were told not to be. If you can't establish zones of protection, it means that she could just as well be wearing 50lbs of C4 and going to destroy a bunker or tank.

    As for the rest, note that his bigger complaint is against the acts of his soldiers. The IDF as a policy had the loose rules of engagement, but it was individuals soldiers underneath the squad leader who spat on pictures and wrote on the wall. So either he gave them the orders, or they acted on their own.
    Testimonies on IDF misconduct in Gaza keep rolling in

    By Amos Harel


    http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/1072811.html

    On Saturday, Channel 10 showed a documentary that included a security briefing by a company commander on the eve of the Gaza invasion.

    "We're going to war," he told his soldiers. "We're not doing routine security work or anything like that. I want aggressiveness - if there's someone suspicious on the upper floor of a house, we'll shell it. If we have suspicions about a house, we'll take it down."

    "There will be no hesitation," the commander continued. "If it's us or them, it'll be them. If someone approaches us unarmed, shoot in the air. If he keeps going, that man is dead. Nobody will deliberate - let the mistakes be over their lives, not ours."

    A number of officers told Haaretz this weekend that the testimonies did not surprise them, as "anyone with eyes in his head knows that these things happened during the fighting in Gaza."

    The soldiers who testified about misconduct "placed a very unpleasant mirror before us," said one officer."
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    They would be willing to return it all however for official recognition that they be allowed to exist. Doesn't sound like too much to ask
    The publication of the Personal Diary of Moshe Sharett (Yoman ishi, Maariv, Tel Aviv, 1979) demolished the myth of security as the motor force of Israeli policy. Moshe Sharett was a former Prime Minister of Israel (1954-55), director of the Jewish Agency’s Political Department and Foreign Minister (1948-56).

    Sharett’s diary reveals in explicit language that the Israeli political and military leadership never believed in any Arab danger to Israel.

    They sought to maneuver and force the Arab states into military confrontations which the Zionist leadership were certain of winning so Israel could carry out the destabilization of Arab regimes and the planned occupation of additional territory.

    Sharett described the governing motive of Israeli military provocation:

    To bring about the liquidation of all ... Palestinian claims to Palestine through the dispersion of the Palestinian refugees to distant corners of the world.
    The Sharett diaries document a longstanding program of Israel’s leaders from both Labor and Likud: to "dismember the Arab world, defeat the Arab national movement and create puppet regimes under regional Israeli power."

    Sharett cites cabinet meetings, position papers and policy memoranda which prepared wars "to modify the balance of power in the region radically, transforming Israel into the major power in the Middle East."

    Sharett reveals that far from Israel "reacting" to Nasser’s nationalization of the Suez Canal for its war of October 1956, the Israeli leadership had prepared this war and had it on their agenda from autumn 1953, one year before Nasser came to power. Sharett recounts how the Israeli cabinet had agreed that international conditions for this war would mature within three years.

    The explicit intent was "the absorption of the Gaza territory and of the Sinai".

    A timetable for conquest was decided at the highest military and political level. The occupation of Gaza and the West Bank was prepared in the early 1950s. In 1954, David Ben Gurion and Moshe Dayan developed a detailed plan to instigate internal Lebanese conflict in order to fragment Lebanon. This was sixteen years before an organized Palestinian political presence occurred there in the aftermath of the expulsions from Jordan in 1970, when King Hussein slaughtered Palestinians in what came to be known as "Black September".

    Sharett described "the use of terror and aggression to provoke" in order to facilitate conquest:

    I have been meditating on the long chain of false incidents and hostilities we have invented and on the many clashes we have provoked which cost so much blood, and on the violations of law by our men all of which have brought grave disaster and determined the whole course of events.
    >
    Sharett recounts how on October 11, 1953, Israeli President Ben Zvi "raised as usual some inspired questions such as [our] chance to occupy the Sinai and how wonderful it would be if the Egyptians started an offensive so we could follow with an invasion of the desert."

    On October 26, 1953, Sharett writes:

    1) The Army considers the present border with Jordan as absolutely unacceptable. 2) The Army is planning war in order to occupy the rest of Eretz Israel.

    By January 31, 1954, Dayan outlined war plans, disclosed by Sharett :

    We should advance militarily into Syria and realize a series of faits accomplis. The interesting conclusion from all this regards the direction in which the Chief of Staff is thinking.

    Livia Rokach: Israel's Sacred Terrorism: A Study Based on Moshe Sharett's Personal Diary and Other Documents http://www.chss.montclair.edu/englis...ys/rokach.html
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    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    Our Media is Pro-Zionist. The IDF confiscates any material that they don't want reporters showing the rest of the world.

    Destroying civil infrastructure, stealing farm land, bulldozing homes, forcing unemployment and poverty on a population is definitely not justified by any means.

    Then ignorant Americans here call the Palestinians "terrorists" because they are fighting an oppressive force? Any American who would view the destruction would not think twice about supporting Israel anymore. President Carter criticized the Israelis and was immediately called anti-Semitic. Anyone who speaks against Israel is considered anti-Semitic. They are always quick to play the race card on people.

    We spend more money on Isreal than we do helping out the the 3rd world countries of this planet-COMBINED. The US spends 10k on each person, and for what? While the Palestinians don't even have reliable water and food supplies or even educational services.

    They have the record for most UN condemnations.

    As Americans it is UN-AMERICAN to help those who oppress people and take away their freedoms.

    On top of all that the Christian majority doesn't help the situation here in the United States. The crimes committed against Palestine are anything but christian.
    i'm glad that i'm not the only one who sees this. i find it odd that America supports Isreal the way it does. if any other country did what Isreal does, we would probaby be supplying the other side (no matter who it is) with all kinds of aid, but since it's Isreal, it is some how ok. why is that? Zionists are the most abserd group of people i have ever seen, you think racism in this country was or is bad......take a look at that situation over there. it is also very sad that most Americans believe that what they are spoon fed from the US media is the whole story and let themselves be molded into whatever the media and it's political agenda what them to be......take a look at the world news sources not just the US ones and form a more educated opinion. You tube has some good sources of info, BBC etc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennoxchi View Post
    i'm glad that i'm not the only one who sees this. i find it odd that America supports Isreal the way it does. if any other country did what Isreal does, we would probaby be supplying the other side (no matter who it is) with all kinds of aid, but since it's Isreal, it is some how ok. why is that? Zionists are the most abserd group of people i have ever seen, you think racism in this country was or is bad......take a look at that situation over there. it is also very sad that most Americans believe that what they are spoon fed from the US media is the whole story and let themselves be molded into whatever the media and it's political agenda what them to be......take a look at the world news sources not just the US ones and form a more educated opinion. You tube has some good sources of info, BBC etc.
    Ever seen this site? http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    Here are some stats for ya.

    During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel
    Source: http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL33222_20080102.pdf

    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

    Sources: http://www.mandela-palestine.org/
    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26702216.htm

    Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
    1967 - Present


    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

    Source: http://www.btselem.org/english/Publi...emolitions.asp

    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land

    Source: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats...ts.html#source
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    Ever seen this site? http://www.ifamericansknew.org/

    Here are some stats for ya.

    During Fiscal Year 2007, the U.S. gave more than $6.8 million per day to Israel
    Source: http://assets.opencrs.com/rpts/RL33222_20080102.pdf

    1 Israeli is being held prisoner by Palestinians, while 10,756 Palestinians are currently imprisoned by Israel.

    Sources: http://www.mandela-palestine.org/
    http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L26702216.htm

    Demolitions of Israeli and Palestinian Homes
    1967 - Present


    0 Israeli homes have been demolished by Palestinians and 18,147 Palestinian homes have been demolished by Israel since 1967.

    Source: http://www.btselem.org/english/Publi...emolitions.asp

    Israel currently has 223 Jewish-only settlements and ‘outposts’ built on confiscated Palestinian land. Palestinians do not have any settlements on Israeli land

    Source: http://www.ifamericansknew.org/stats...ts.html#source
    WOW......good stuff man. maybe a couple of eyes will be open after they read some of the truth not reported by the US media which is completely one-sided.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    "There will be no hesitation," the commander continued. "If it's us or them, it'll be them. If someone approaches us unarmed, shoot in the air. If he keeps going, that man is dead. Nobody will deliberate - let the mistakes be over their lives, not ours."
    that one piece is it in a nutshell. Why should the Israelis allow themselves to be victimized with no response? And the officer first states shooting in the air as a warning, then kill the person. Have you not seen the suicide bombers before?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    that one piece is it in a nutshell. Why should the Israelis allow themselves to be victimized with no response? And the officer first states shooting in the air as a warning, then kill the person. Have you not seen the suicide bombers before?
    now i totally agree with "shoot in the air first" and giving anyone a warning to stop. the result could be that, that person is a suicide bomber and is out to do you harm. and no the Israelis should not let themselves be victimized nor should anyone else for that matter. take a look at the innocent schools and camps being shelled by Israel and tell me that these acts are not terrorism http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870087,00.html hell, there weren't any Hamas fighters even in those schools, and the camps those were designed for civiliens not rebels.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lennoxchi View Post
    now i totally agree with "shoot in the air first" and giving anyone a warning to stop. the result could be that, that person is a suicide bomber and is out to do you harm. and no the Israelis should not let themselves be victimized nor should anyone else for that matter. take a look at the innocent schools and camps being shelled by Israel and tell me that these acts are not terrorism http://www.time.com/time/world/artic...870087,00.html hell, there weren't any Hamas fighters even in those schools, and the camps those were designed for civiliens not rebels.
    And Hamas had fired mortars from that school. Maybe they were gone by the time Israel struck there, but thats where the mortars were fired from, that targeted innocent Israeli homes and businesses.

    Again, although I sympathize with the Palestinian conditions, the fact that they could have all the land taken in 67 back for merely acknowledging Israel's right to exist but they refuse too keeps my sympathy from being very deep. And I can't make an ethical judgment on the Israelis as I've never had to live that way - each day, everywhere you go there is a chance you or family members could die from mortar fire or a suicide bomber sent by a group who vows to NOT STOP until all Israelis are dead.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    that one piece is it in a nutshell. Why should the Israelis allow themselves to be victimized with no response? And the officer first states shooting in the air as a warning, then kill the person. Have you not seen the suicide bombers before?
    Sharett described the governing motive of Israeli military provocation:


    The Sharett diaries document a longstanding program of Israel’s leaders from both Labor and Likud: to "dismember the Arab world, defeat the Arab national movement and create puppet regimes under regional Israeli power."
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    American's need to stop defending Israel. Only Zionist have an agency dedicated to polishing their name-The Anti-Defamation League. Why are they watching everything that is reported about them? What are they trying to hide?

    Do the Palestinians have no human rights? Or even rights to the land they used to own? They live on refugee camps, no education, no hope, no employment and mean while the Israelis are getting BILLIONS per day??? What is wrong here? Why do they need billions for? Mean while our soldiers don't even have the best benefits, our schools are crap, and people don't have health coverage.

    Israel has a right to defend itself, but they never had any right to punish the Palestinians for simply "existing" in a land they wanted for themselves. In my book "Hamas" is a group of freedom fighters going against a tyrant. They are Israel's problem, not the US. They hate the US for the support we give them.
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    Supporting Israel is Un-American. US belongs to no ONE! So the Israeli lobbyist should GTFO of Washington.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    Sharett described the governing motive of Israeli military provocation:


    The Sharett diaries document a longstanding program of Israel’s leaders from both Labor and Likud: to "dismember the Arab world, defeat the Arab national movement and create puppet regimes under regional Israeli power."
    You mean Sharett documents Sharett saying there was a longstanding program of that.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    You mean Sharett documents Sharett saying there was a longstanding program of that.
    Sharett cites cabinet meetings, position papers and policy memoranda which prepared wars "to modify the balance of power in the region radically

    Chomsky comments:

    "Moshe Sharett's diary, to which Livia Rokach's monograph is devoted, is undoubtedly a major documentary source. It remains outside of "official history"-that version of history that reaches more than a tiny audience of people unsatisfied by conventional doctrine. It is only reasonable to predict that this will remain true in the United States as long as the "special relationship" persists. If, on the other hand, Israel had been, say, an ally of the Soviet Union, then Sharett's revelations would quickly become common knowledge, just as no one would speak of the Egyptian attack on Israel in 1956."



    Livia Rokach: Israel's Sacred Terrorism: A Study Based on Moshe Sharett's Personal Diary and Other Documents http://www.chss.montclair.edu/englis...ys/rokach.html

    Between 1933 and 1948 Sharett guided the foreign relations of the Zionist movement, as head of the Jewish Agency's Political Department, and from 1948 to 1956 he was lsrael's foreign minister. In 1954 and 1955 he was its prime minister as well. The following pages present extracts from Sharett's diary demonstrating the following points:



    1 .The Israeli political /military establishment never seriously believed in an Arab threat to the existence of Israel. On the contrary, it sought and applied every means to exacerbate the dilemma of the Arab regimes after the 1948 war. The Arab governments were extremely reluctant to engage in any military confrontation with Israel, yet in order to survive they needed to project to their populations and to the exiled Palestinians in their countries some kind of reaction to lsrael's aggressive policies and continuous acts of harassment. In other words, the Arab threat was an Israeli-invented myth which for internal and inter-Arab reasons the Arab regimes could not completely deny, though they constantly feared Israeli preparations for a new war.

    2. The Israeli political/military establishment aimed at pushing the Arab states into military confrontations which the Israeli leaders were invariably certain of winning. The goal of these confrontations was to modify the balance of power in the region radically, transforming the Zionist state into the major power in the Middle East.

    3. In order to achieve this strategic purpose the following tactics were used:

    a) Large- and small-scale military operations aimed at civilian populations across the armistice lines, especially in the Palestinian territories of the West Bank and Gaza, then respectively under the control of Jordan and Egypt. These operations had a double purpose: to terrorize the populations, and to create a permanent destabilization stemming from tensions between the Arab governments and the populations, who felt they were not adequately protected against Israeli aggression.

    b) Military operations against Arab military installations in border areas to undermine the morale of the armies and intensify the regimes' destabilization from inside their military structures.

    c) Covert terrorist operations in depth inside the Arab world, used for both espionage and to create fear, tension and instability.



    4. lsrael's achievement of its strategic purpose was to be realized through the following means:

    a) New territorial conquests through war. Although the 1949-50 armistice agreements assigned to Israel a territory one-third larger than had the UN partition plan, the Israeli leadership was still not satisfied with the size of the state, the borders of which it had committed itself to respect on the international level. It sought to recover at least the borders of mandate Palestine. The territorial dimension was considered to be a vital factor in Israel's transformation into a regional power.

    b) Political as well as military efforts to bring about the liquidation of all Arab and Palestinian claims to Palestine through the dispersion of the Palestinian refugees of the 1947-49 war to faraway parts of the Arab world as well as outside the Arab world.

    c) Subversive operations designed to dismember the Arab world, defeat the Arab national movement, and create puppet regimes which would gravitate to the regional Israeli power.



    In providing documentation on the above points, Sharett's Diary deals a deadly blow to a number of important interpretations which are still being presented as historical truths. Among these are the following items:



    1. To this date the majority of scholars and analysts cite the nationalization of the Suez Canal as the chief motivation for the October 1956 war, It is thereby implied that the projected British and French aggression against Egypt provided Israel with an opportunity to achieve the termination of fedayeen attacks from across the armistice lines, and to settle its accounts with Nasser's regime, to which these attacks were attributed.

    What Sharett tells us now is that a major war against Egypt aimed at the territorial conquest of Gaza and the Sinai was on the Israeli leadership's agenda at least as early as the autumn of 1953, almost a year before Nasser ousted Neguib and consolidated his leadership. It was agreed then that the international conditions for such a war would mature within a period of about three years. The Israeli military attack on Gaza in February 1955 was consciously undertaken as a preliminary act of war. A couple of months later a government decision to commence a war to conquer the Gaza Strip met with the strenuous opposition of the foreign minister, whose political liquidation was thereupon decided by the supporters of the war policy, headed by Ben Gurion. Had the prospect of the tripartite aggression not appeared on the horizon in later months, Israel would have gone on to attack Egypt according to its own plans, and, moreover, with U.S. consent.

    2. The occupation by Israel of the West Bank and Gaza in 1967 has been described, and is still widely understood today, as an Israeli defensive action in the face of Arab threats. Sharett's Diary offers unequivocable evidence that the occupation of Gaza and also of the West Bank was part of lsrael's plans since the early fifties. American Zionist leaders were informed about these plans in 1954, In 1955, Jewish and Arab lives were sacrificed in a series of provocative attacks undertaken to create a pretext for the occupation of Jordanian territory. The chief obstacle postponing this occupation was Britain's residual presence in Jordan upholding the Hashemite throne.

    3. The continuing, violent Israeli aggression in Lebanon still is being attributed, shamelessly, to Israeli security needs. In particular, Israeli spokesmen, echoed by Western media, try to explain lsrael's massive intervention in Lebanon and the Lebanese events in general, with the following historical arguments:

    a)In the struggle between Muslims and Christians, a conflict which would have broken out regardless of outside interference, Israel's role has been limited to the defense of the Christian minority.

    b)The presence of the Palestinian resistance, or in Israeli terminology, of Palestinian terrorism in that country required Israeli intervention.



    Sharett's Diary, however, provides the entire documentation of how in 1954 Ben Gurion developed the diabolic plans to "Christianize" Lebanon, i.e., to invent and create from scratch the inter-Lebanese conflict, and of how a detailed blueprint for the partition and subordination of that country to Israel was elaborated by Israel more than fifteen years before the Palestinian presence became a political factor in Lebanon.

    The use of terror and aggression to provoke or create the appearance of an Arab threat to lsrael's existence was summed up by the then "number two" of the Zionist state's hierarchy:



    "I have been meditating on the long chain of false incidents and hostilities we have invented, and on the many clashes we have provoked which cost us so much blood, and on the violations of the law by our men-all of which brought grave disasters and determined the whole course of events and contributed to the security crisis".



    A week earlier, Moshe Dayan, then lsrael's chief of staff, explained why Israel needed to reject Any border security arrangements offered by the neighboring Arab States, or by the United Nations, as well as the formal security guarantees suggested by the United States. Such guarantees, he predicted, might "tie lsrael's hands."

    Presumably, that would render unjustifiable or even impossible those attacks and incursions across the armistice lines which through the mid- 1950s went under the euphemistic name of reprisal actions. These actions, Dayan said,



    "are our vital lymph. They . . . . help us maintain a high tension among our population and in the army. . . in order to have young men go to the Negev we have to cry out that it is in danger". (26 May 1955, 102 1)



    The creation of a siege mentality in Israeli society was necessary to complement the prefabricated myth of the Arab threat.

    The two elements were intended to feed each other. Although Israeli society faced a serious risk of social and cultural disintegration under the impact of a mass immigration of Asian and North African Jews into the pre-state's ideologically homogeneous community, the purpose of the siege mentality was not so much that of attaining a defensive cohesiveness in Israel's Jewish society.

    It was calculated principally to "eliminate the moral brakes" required for a society to fully support a police which constituted a complete reversal of the collective ethical code on which its formal education was based and from which it was supposed to derive its vital strength. Of course, this ethical code had not been respected in the past either. Aggression and terrorism had been exercised by the Zionists before and during the 1947-48 war. The following testimony of a soldier who participated in the occupation of the Palestinian village of Duelma in 1948 is only the most recently disclosed of a long chain of evidence:
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    In 1940, Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, wrote:

    "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left"

    Joseph Weitz, A Solution to the Refugee Problem, Davar, September 29, 1967. Cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mezvinsky, eds, Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21



    Prior to the invasion of Lebanon in 1982, Ariel Sharon and Bashir Gemayel had declared on separate occasions that they would reduce the Palestinians in Lebanon from 500,000 to 50,000.

    As the invasion unfolded, these plans began to surface in the pages of the Israeli and Western press.

    Ha’aretz reported on September 26, 1982:

    "A long-term objective aimed at the expulsion of the whole Palestinian population of Lebanon beginning with Beirut. The purpose was to create a panic to convince [sic] all the Palestinians of Lebanon that they were no longer safe in that country."

    The London Sunday Times reported on the same day:

    "This carefully preplanned military operation to ’purge’ the camps was called Moah Barzel or Iron Brain; the plan was familiar to Sharon and Begin and part of Sharon’s larger plan discussed by the Israeli Cabinet on July 17.

    Bashir Gemayel became emboldened as the Israeli blitzkrieg swept through Lebanon. "The Palestinians," he declared, "are a people too many. We will not rest until every true Lebanese has killed at least one Palestinian."

    A prominent Lebanese army doctor told his unit: "Soon there will not be a single Palestinian in Lebanon. They are a bacteria which must be exterminated."
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    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    Do the Palestinians have no human rights? Or even rights to the land they used to own?
    Do the israelis have no right to live? Does their country somehow have no right to exist? Thats what Hamas says


    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    In my book "Hamas" is a group of freedom fighters going against a tyrant. They are Israel's problem, not the US. They hate the US for the support we give them.
    Then in my book, you are an idiot. Freedom fighters fight for freedom, not for genocide of another group. Yet that is EXACTLY what Hamas' stated mission is - destruction of israel, death to all israelis.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    Sharett cites cabinet meetings, position papers and policy memoranda which prepared wars "to modify the balance of power in the region radically
    yawn, again he says those things, but no proof of them, other than him saying them
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    Quote Originally Posted by lutherblsstt View Post
    In 1940, Joseph Weitz, the head of the Jewish Agency’s Colonization Department, which was responsible for the actual organization of settlements in Palestine, wrote:

    "Between ourselves it must be clear that there is no room for both peoples together in this country. We shall not achieve our goal if the Arabs are in this small country. There is no other way than to transfer the Arabs from here to neighboring countries - all of them. Not one village, not one tribe should be left"

    Joseph Weitz, A Solution to the Refugee Problem, Davar, September 29, 1967. Cited in Uri Davis and Norton Mezvinsky, eds, Documents from Israel, 1967-1973, p.21
    and gee whiz, everyone today agrees with him, there needs to be 2 separate states.
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    Isreal no longer wants a 2 state solution..just ask their Foriegn Minister and next future president...Avigdor Lieberman.... I think the Zionist Imperative wont allow such a compromise..
    the apartheid/Palestinian holocaust will continue indefinitely....
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    Quote Originally Posted by salras77 View Post
    Isreal no longer wants a 2 state solution..just ask their Foriegn Minister and next future president...Avigdor Lieberman.... I think the Zionist Imperative wont allow such a compromise..
    the apartheid/Palestinian holocaust will continue indefinitely....
    How many years have they tried to create one? about 40 years with the only requirement being that the arab world grant israel recognition as a nation with a right to exist, and the whole time Hamas has cried "all israeli's must die". How would you feel if you were an israeli?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    How many years have they tried to create one? about 40 years with the only requirement being that the arab world grant israel recognition as a nation with a right to exist, and the whole time Hamas has cried "all israeli's must die". How would you feel if you were an israeli?

    oh come on easy, it is not entirely unreasonable that Israelies should be ok with their existence as a people and nation being threatened.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Do the israelis have no right to live? Does their country somehow have no right to exist? Thats what Hamas says




    Then in my book, you are an idiot. Freedom fighters fight for freedom, not for genocide of another group. Yet that is EXACTLY what Hamas' stated mission is - destruction of israel, death to all israelis.
    First of all Israellis never had a right to force those people on to refugee camps

    Freedom Fighters fight OCCUPATION. They want palestine back, they want freedom. their view of "death to Israel, death to all Israelis" is a result of Israels actions against the Palestinians people. Do you think they want to kill Israelis for fun? Or because they human rights violations being committed everyday.

    What would you do if the UN Goverment decided that your land now belonged a displaced group of Zionist Jews? What would would you do when they confiscated your land, and took away you freedom?

    Would you fight them tooth and claw?

    Before the UN creation of Israel, Jews and Palestinians existed in the area peacefully.
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    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    First of all Israellis never had a right to force those people on to refugee camps

    Freedom Fighters fight OCCUPATION. They want palestine back, they want freedom. their view of "death to Israel, death to all Israelis" is a result of Israels actions against the Palestinians people. Do you think they want to kill Israelis for fun? Or because they human rights violations being committed everyday.
    you are wrong again. Its not solely the result of actions against the palestinians, as all the arab nations were chanting the same thing from when israel was created thru 1967 minimally. It didn't suddenly start then. Its largely even for the other arab nations far more about religious holy sites than about the palestinians.


    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    What would you do if the UN Goverment decided that your land now belonged a displaced group of Zionist Jews? What would would you do when they confiscated your land, and took away you freedom?

    Would you fight them tooth and claw?
    So suddenly that makes it right to call for the death of all israelis? to suicide bomb grade schools and nightclubs? Please, give me a break. I'd maintain my humanity and dignity.

    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    Before the UN creation of Israel, Jews and Palestinians existed in the area peacefully.
    And nobody is going to uncreate it, so the palestinians and other arabs need to just recognize that already and work towards a peace, and give up on the destruction of Israel. Something Hamas, the palestinian's ruling party have refused to do EVER since their formation.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    you are wrong again. Its not solely the result of actions against the palestinians, as all the arab nations were chanting the same thing from when israel was created thru 1967 minimally. It didn't suddenly start then. Its largely even for the other arab nations far more about religious holy sites than about the palestinians.

    True I.ll take that one.


    So suddenly that makes it right to call for the death of all israelis? to suicide bomb grade schools and nightclubs? Please, give me a break. I'd maintain my humanity and dignity.

    Have you even considered what the Israelis have done to the Palestineans? Sucide Bombs are that last weak pathetic weapon they have. And Yes Israel does not keep it clean. they hit 59 medical treatment centers and fired shells at schools. The Israelis aren't any better if not worse than the Palestineans in warfare. Why do you think Israel keeps the media under watch and censors everything that is reported? Israel can do what ever ungodly atrocities it wants because the US will always back them up.



    And nobody is going to uncreate it, so the palestinians and other arabs need to just recognize that already and work towards a peace, and give up on the destruction of Israel. Something Hamas, the palestinian's ruling party have refused to do EVER since their formation.
    I will agree on this. But a point you mentioned earlier, I dont think the other Arab nations will agree to this.

    The only reason Israel still exist is because they have the US as their little bitches ready to defend them. Why do we give them so much money?


    Do you think the US should support Isreal so heavily?
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    Quote Originally Posted by nopeace View Post
    I will agree on this. But a point you mentioned earlier, I dont think the other Arab nations will agree to this.

    The only reason Israel still exist is because they have the US as their little bitches ready to defend them. Why do we give them so much money?


    Do you think the US should support Isreal so heavily?
    The UN gave them that land, and the UN is spineless in enforcing any of its edicts. Without our aid, all of the Israelis would have been wiped out in a second holocaust by the mid 60s. Until the arab world agrees to allow israel to exist, someone needs to stand by their side. Sucks that we spend money there, but its still less than we piss away on other far more ridiculous things.
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