A Conservative for Obama

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    A Conservative for Obama


    A Conservative for Obama

    My party has slipped its moorings. It’s time for a true pragmatist to lead the country.

    Leading Off
    By Wick Allison,
    EDITOR IN CHIEF

    THE MORE I LISTEN TO AND READ ABOUT “the most liberal member of the U.S. Senate,” the more I like him. Barack Obama strikes a chord with me like no political figure since Ronald Reagan. To explain why, I need to explain why I am a conservative and what it means to me.

    In 1964, at the age of 16, I organized the Dallas County Youth for Goldwater. My senior thesis at the University of Texas was on the conservative intellectual revival in America. Twenty years later, I was invited by William F. Buckley Jr. to join the board of National Review. I later became its publisher.

    Conservatism to me is less a political philosophy than a stance, a recognition of the fallibility of man and of man’s institutions. Conservatives respect the past not for its antiquity but because it represents, as G.K. Chesterton said, the democracy of the dead; it gives the benefit of the doubt to customs and laws tried and tested in the crucible of time. Conservatives are skeptical of abstract theories and utopian schemes, doubtful that government is wiser than its citizens, and always ready to test any political program against actual results.

    Liberalism always seemed to me to be a system of “oughts.” We ought to do this or that because it’s the right thing to do, regardless of whether it works or not. It is a doctrine based on intentions, not results, on feeling good rather than doing good.

    But today it is so-called conservatives who are cemented to political programs when they clearly don’t work. The Bush tax cuts—a solution for which there was no real problem and which he refused to end even when the nation went to war—led to huge deficit spending and a $3 trillion growth in the federal debt. Facing this, John McCain pumps his “conservative” credentials by proposing even bigger tax cuts. Meanwhile, a movement that once fought for limited government has presided over the greatest growth of government in our history. That is not conservatism; it is profligacy using conservatism as a mask.

    Today it is conservatives, not liberals, who talk with alarming bellicosity about making the world “safe for democracy.” It is John McCain who says America’s job is to “defeat evil,” a theological expansion of the nation’s mission that would make George Washington cough out his wooden teeth.

    This kind of conservatism, which is not conservative at all, has produced financial mismanagement, the waste of human lives, the loss of moral authority, and the wreckage of our economy that McCain now threatens to make worse.

    Barack Obama is not my ideal candidate for president. (In fact, I made the maximum donation to John McCain during the primaries, when there was still hope he might come to his senses.) But I now see that Obama is almost the ideal candidate for this moment in American history. I disagree with him on many issues. But those don’t matter as much as what Obama offers, which is a deeply conservative view of the world. Nobody can read Obama’s books (which, it is worth noting, he wrote himself) or listen to him speak without realizing that this is a thoughtful, pragmatic, and prudent man. It gives me comfort just to think that after eight years of George W. Bush we will have a president who has actually read the Federalist Papers.

    Most important, Obama will be a realist. I doubt he will taunt Russia, as McCain has, at the very moment when our national interest requires it as an ally. The crucial distinction in my mind is that, unlike John McCain, I am convinced he will not impulsively take us into another war unless American national interests are directly threatened.

    “Every great cause,” Eric Hoffer wrote, “begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” As a cause, conservatism may be dead. But as a stance, as a way of making judgments in a complex and difficult world, I believe it is very much alive in the instincts and predispositions of a liberal named Barack Obama.

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    This guy is just like everyone else. He thinks to himself....what do I want an Obama to be, and convinces himself that BHO is that man.
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    I like how he uses conservatives expanding government as an excuse to vote for Obama; like Obama wont expand government LOL. This guy seriously has some international relations and history to catch up on. He thinks Russia will be an ally for the US? PAH. The last thing Russia needs is some slack. Missile shield? Ossetia? Yeah, let's back down from Russia. I'm sure Putin and Medvedev are actually sweetie pies.
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    I figured "you guys" would blank right over this, so let me put it before you again:
    THE MORE I LISTEN TO AND READ ABOUT “the most liberal member of the U.S. Senate,” the more I like him. Barack Obama strikes a chord with me like no political figure since Ronald Reagan. To explain why, I need to explain why I am a conservative and what it means to me.

    In 1964, at the age of 16, I organized the Dallas County Youth for Goldwater. My senior thesis at the University of Texas was on the conservative intellectual revival in America. Twenty years later, I was invited by William F. Buckley Jr. to join the board of National Review. I later became its publisher.

    Conservatism to me is less a political philosophy than a stance, a recognition of the fallibility of man and of man’s institutions. Conservatives respect the past not for its antiquity but because it represents, as G.K. Chesterton said, the democracy of the dead; it gives the benefit of the doubt to customs and laws tried and tested in the crucible of time. Conservatives are skeptical of abstract theories and utopian schemes, doubtful that government is wiser than its citizens, and always ready to test any political program against actual results.

    Liberalism always seemed to me to be a system of “oughts.” We ought to do this or that because it’s the right thing to do, regardless of whether it works or not. It is a doctrine based on intentions, not results, on feeling good rather than doing good.

    But today it is so-called conservatives who are cemented to political programs when they clearly don’t work. The Bush tax cuts—a solution for which there was no real problem and which he refused to end even when the nation went to war—led to huge deficit spending and a $3 trillion growth in the federal debt. Facing this, John McCain pumps his “conservative” credentials by proposing even bigger tax cuts. Meanwhile, a movement that once fought for limited government has presided over the greatest growth of government in our history. That is not conservatism; it is profligacy using conservatism as a mask.

    Today it is conservatives, not liberals, who talk with alarming bellicosity about making the world “safe for democracy.” It is John McCain who says America’s job is to “defeat evil,” a theological expansion of the nation’s mission that would make George Washington cough out his wooden teeth.

    This kind of conservatism, which is not conservative at all, has produced financial mismanagement, the waste of human lives, the loss of moral authority, and the wreckage of our economy that McCain now threatens to make worse.
    "You guys" should really try absorbing opinions & points of view "you" don't already know "you" agree with, once in a while, try thinking outside the single-point-of-view echo chamber you're trapped in.

    'Course, "you" could just continue to post fact-free screeds from Prager, Malkin & their catastrophic ilk...but that would add nothing to the conversation, either inside your heads, or in the world around you.

    Or "you" could actually, y'know, *think* about why people who've always been in the conservative camp have been jumping ship after many decades - I mean, aren't "you" even curious? Do you even *remember* that Arianna Huffington first gained attention as a voice for the Reagan Democrats? Or that she bailed early in the Bush '43 administration? Or that in doing so she followed in the footsteps of long-time Republican strategist & Nixon / Reagan staffer Kevin Phillps (who bailed on Pappy for related reasons)? (I'd suggest you read Huffington's "Pigs at the Trough", and pretty much anything by Phillips ("American Theocracy," "The Arrogance of Capital") but it's become pretty clear that "you guys" don't trust anyone or anything from outside "your" echo-chamber).

    Did y'all notice that Bill Buckley - father of the modern conservative movement in American politics - was thrown under the bus by the neo-cons after they started coming into power (seeming comparatively "liberal" in contrast, after the relentless march to the "Right" driven by Pearl, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Podhoretz, et al)?

    Or is it all just team-sports to "you"? "You" support "your team", and anything goes, fair or foul, 'second-place is for losers'? Honesty, facts, reason, logic, persuasion are for weak-kneed chumps, not REAL AMERICANS? Real men don't "DO" nuance?

    The reason "you" & other such are in quotes is because my remarks are specific to the responses - not to the individual bros who replied. Much the same comments could have been made by any of a dozen different guys, and my follow-up comments would have been much the same, as well. None of this is personal: I got a ton o' respect for you, Rob - and you've earned it; Rugger, I don't know you so well, but I have no reason to antagonize you, and my history on the board is of not p!ssing people off for no reason. Fair enough?
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    I understand your point of view and the guy in your article's point of view. I definitely think this guy's logic is off base. Just because the quasi conservative president in place expanded government doesn't mean that a super liberal if elected will not. As far as blaming this economic situtation on Bush, I think he is way off base.

    McCain is not on my team, Obama is on the team I hate.

    Obama's policies are the antithesis of everything I see as right in the world. Compound his policies with a democratic congress who will pass everything without a second thought and it is truly a recipe for disaster.
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    I can understand where he is coming from but what I can't figure out is how he thinks BHO is going to make his situation any better lol.
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    OH what is this... DEMOCRATS FOR MCCAIN? Oh the humanity.

    http://www.democratsformccain.com/

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    Quote Originally Posted by DAdams91982 View Post
    OH what is this... DEMOCRATS FOR MCCAIN? Oh the humanity.

    http://www.democratsformccain.com/

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    Naw, that's just another flavor of "Obama-Haters Against America"
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    Quote Originally Posted by BodyWizard View Post
    Naw, that's just another flavor of "Obama-Haters Against America"
    Didn't Obama go to a church who's pastor of 20 years said during a sermon,

    "Not God Bless America, God Damn America!"

    ......and now somehow people that hate Obama are against America?
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    http://www.eyeblast.tv/Public/Video.aspx?rsrcID=2036

    Another lovely piece on what a delightful human being he is..........not sure how anyone who calls himself conservative would even speak his name. This guy is plain old dangerous, god bless us all.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    Eyeblast.tv - A Video Portrait Of Barack Hussein Obama

    Another lovely piece on what a delightful human being he is..........not sure how anyone who calls himself conservative would even speak his name. This guy is plain old dangerous, god bless us all.
    I believe this piece lost its objectivity and seriousness when it said: "Do we want to elect a president with not one, but three Islamic names?". I had not realized that names were the new criterion for judging the potential viability of a candidate, lol!

    I also appreciate the attempt at implicit racial syllogisms:

    Muslims are bad.
    If one attends a Muslim School, they are a Muslim.
    Barack attended a Muslim School.
    Barack is a Muslim.
    Barack is bad.

    Simply pitiful and ridiculous; I attempt to remain objective in these discussions, but videos like this do nothing for the progress of representative democracy. I truly hope you do not take this tripe to heart.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I believe this piece lost its objectivity and seriousness when it said: "Do we want to elect a president with not one, but three Islamic names?". I had not realized that names were the new criterion for judging the potential viability of a candidate, lol!

    I also appreciate the attempt at implicit racial syllogisms:

    Muslims are bad.
    If one attends a Muslim School, they are a Muslim.
    Barack attended a Muslim School.
    Barack is a Muslim.
    Barack is bad.

    Simply pitiful and ridiculous; I attempt to remain objective in these discussions, but videos like this do nothing for the progress of representative democracy. I truly hope you do not take this tripe to heart.
    I pray you are right, because if you are wrong, we are all pretty ****ed. Enjoy the ride, sir.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    I pray you are right, because if you are wrong, we are all pretty ****ed. Enjoy the ride, sir.
    I have more of a spectator seat, but I will enjoy watching your ride (not American).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I believe this piece lost its objectivity and seriousness when it said: "Do we want to elect a president with not one, but three Islamic names?". I had not realized that names were the new criterion for judging the potential viability of a candidate, lol!

    I also appreciate the attempt at implicit racial syllogisms:

    Muslims are bad.
    If one attends a Muslim School, they are a Muslim.
    Barack attended a Muslim School.
    Barack is a Muslim.
    Barack is bad.

    Simply pitiful and ridiculous; I attempt to remain objective in these discussions, but videos like this do nothing for the progress of representative democracy. I truly hope you do not take this tripe to heart.
    I think one could make a convincing case that Islam is an inherently evil religion. If you look at its teachings and its history, within 100 years of Muhammed's death, Muslim Jihadist had taken over the entire Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, and Iberian Penninsula. Other religions were then outlawed and vilified by Islamic Caliphs throughout the Muslim world.

    Islam's fundamental pillars does not include Jihad, but is known as the 6th unofficial pillar to many Muslim sects. This "6th pillar" of Jihad has been used to justify terrorist acts and wars for over a thousand years. This doesn't include all Islamic sects, but the link of Islam and Jihad is irrefutable.

    In addition, many Islamic governments consistently place severe limitations woman's rights and individual liberties using the Quran's teachings as justification for their laws.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I think one could make a convincing case that Islam is an inherently evil religion. If you look at its teachings and its history, within 100 years of Muhammed's death, Muslim Jihadist had taken over the entire Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, and Iberian Penninsula. Other religions were then outlawed and vilified by Islamic Caliphs throughout the Muslim world.

    Islam's fundamental pillars does not include Jihad, but is known as the 6th unofficial pillar to many Muslim sects. This "6th pillar" of Jihad has been used to justify terrorist acts and wars for over a thousand years. This doesn't include all Islamic sects, but the link of Islam and Jihad is irrefutable.

    In addition, many Islamic governments consistently place severe limitations woman's rights and individual liberties using the Quran's teachings as justification for their laws.
    And the case could just as easily be made that preconceived notions, founded on a latent and implicit sense of geopolitical-driven racism, both fabricate and perpetuate that notion.

    The case could also be reasonably made that this video is fundamentally ridiculous, and you realize that (you are smart); Islam tended toward violence, not evil - differences abound, but I will refrain from elaborating further.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    And the case could just as easily be made that preconceived notions, founded on a latent and implicit sense of geopolitical-driven racism, both fabricate and perpetuate that notion.

    The case could also be reasonably made that this video is fundamentally ridiculous, and you realize that (you are smart); Islam tended toward violence, not evil - differences abound, but I will refrain from elaborating further.
    Well said. Was curious how you'd respond to that post.
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    What person/persons ever believed what that were doing was wrong. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, so did Lenin, Stalin, Mao, et al. Fact is islamo-fascism is dangerous to those who aren't Muslim. So, to bring up evil is just silly. Outlandish arguments made by people who's logic is immersed in ignorance. Can't wait until we try socialized health care(never been done before) under the new article in the constitution, right next to the other amendment, right to buy a house at anyone's expense. Good stuff.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    What person/persons ever believed what that were doing was wrong. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, so did Lenin, Stalin, Mao, et al. Fact is islamo-fascism is dangerous to those who aren't Muslim. So, to bring up evil is just silly. Outlandish arguments made by people who's logic is immersed in ignorance. Can't wait until we try socialized health care(never been done before) under the new article in the constitution, right next to the other amendment, right to buy a house at anyone's expense. Good stuff.
    I am merely making the distinction between Islam as a religious doctrine, and Radical Islamic Fundamentalism as a fundamentally geopolitical tool; you are not! Aside from that, you would be hard pressed to convince me you feel Barack Obama is an Islamic Fundamentalist - very hard pressed.
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    Quote Originally Posted by RobInKuwait View Post
    I think one could make a convincing case that Islam is an inherently evil religion. If you look at its teachings and its history, within 100 years of Muhammed's death, Muslim Jihadist had taken over the entire Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, and Iberian Penninsula. Other religions were then outlawed and vilified by Islamic Caliphs throughout the Muslim world.

    Islam's fundamental pillars does not include Jihad, but is known as the 6th unofficial pillar to many Muslim sects. This "6th pillar" of Jihad has been used to justify terrorist acts and wars for over a thousand years. This doesn't include all Islamic sects, but the link of Islam and Jihad is irrefutable.

    In addition, many Islamic governments consistently place severe limitations woman's rights and individual liberties using the Quran's teachings as justification for their laws.
    I am not sure how much background you have in the study of Islam and the Qu'ran, but I will say this, anything when taken out of context can be made evil. The Old Testament and New Testament share that same distinction.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I am merely making the distinction between Islam as a religious doctrine, and Radical Islamic Fundamentalism as a fundamentally geopolitical tool; you are not! Aside from that, you would be hard pressed to convince me you feel Barack Obama is an Islamic Fundamentalist - very hard pressed.
    Not saying that at all. My only point is this guy is a complete unkown quantity. Saddle that with too many question marks, it's a bad bet, period. At best, he's a hack with poor judgment. At worst, well, draw your own conclusion. And, make no mistake, McCain is an absolute tool, however, I am not downright FRIGHTENED of McCain.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    ...Not saying that at all...
    You are most definitely implying as such, though; one explanation is as good as the other. If not, I fail to realize why you would have mentioned the 'evilness' of Islam and so forth, or made mention to previous Fascist dictators. Let us be clear with our words as to not confuse the issue! If you feel Barack Obama is a national security threat - due to your perceptions of both his faith and Islam - say so; but, however, please do not muddle that with policy!
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    Go back and read, then tell me where I said it was evil. You brought it up in your six degees to islamo-fascist reference. I made the comment that even fascist dictators(so they thought)had their hearts in the right place. Don't know how to make it any clearer. Oh yeah, he's not a muslim, though. Only his 2 daddies were. Like saying his wife isn't a black panther. Last I checked if one went to a muslim school, it wasn't to learn how to be a christian. I went to catholic school, wonder why there weren't any jews. Keep turning a blind eye, guy, for the sake of political correctness.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    Go back and read, then tell me where I said it was evil. You brought it up in your six degees to islamo-fascist reference. I made the comment that even fascist dictators(so they thought)had their hearts in the right place. Don't know how to make it any clearer. Oh yeah, he's not a muslim, though. Only his 2 daddies were. Like saying his wife isn't a black panther. Last I checked if one went to a muslim school, it wasn't to learn how to be a christian. I went to catholic school, wonder why there weren't any jews. Keep turning a blind eye, guy, for the sake of political correctness.
    Why is it bad to be Muslim? This is the point about misconceptions and prejudices I was attempting to delineate previously; you keep insinuating, very obviously, that you feel it is "bad" for him to be Muslim. Explain why.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    Not saying that at all. My only point is this guy is a complete unkown quantity. Saddle that with too many question marks, it's a bad bet, period. At best, he's a hack with poor judgment. At worst, well, draw your own conclusion. And, make no mistake, McCain is an absolute tool, however, I am not downright FRIGHTENED of McCain.
    Of course not because he looks like you. 8 years ago John McCain was treated like a joke by the GOP. What makes him so different now, the Spokesmodel? btw,Welcome to Republicans for Obama | Republicans for Obama

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    It is bad to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I have Muslim acquaintances. Islam comes before everything. One Egyptian young woman in the gym tells me she wants to join the army. But, doesn't want to go to the middle east. She says she could never imagine killing another Muslim. This coming from a liberal muslim, tight clothes, hair done, HOT. Go read the book, "Infidel", then we can talk. Why is it bad for him to be Muslim? Look to the east and pray twice a day, thought liberals were big on separating church amd state. If he is Muslim, why has he been hiding it? Muslim name, madrassa, 2 muslim daddies. My daddy told me if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably ain't a chicken.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastone View Post
    Of course not because he looks like you. 8 years ago John McCain was treated like a joke by the GOP. What makes him so different now, the Spokesmodel? btw,Welcome to Republicans for Obama | Republicans for Obama

    :bruce3:
    who looks like me? and how do you know?
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    My only point is this guy is a complete unkown quantity.
    Only if you believe people who say he's "a complete unkown quantity".

    And if he IS so completely unknown, why are you sure YOU know so much more about him? Serious question.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    Go read the book, "Infidel", then we can talk. Why is it bad for him to be Muslim? Look to the east and pray twice a day, thought liberals were big on separating church amd state.
    Actually, I spent some time studying the Upanishads, the Nyaya Vaisheshika, the Bhagavad Gita, the Qur'an, and the Kalam (Rational Theology) School as a part of a Minor in Eastern Philosophy; however, I appreciate both your incorrect assumptions about Eastern Theology/Philosophy, and your subtle condescendence!

    So, scotty2, I would suggest ceasing your blatant extrapolation ("I knew some HOT Muslim chick, so ALL Muslims must be 'as such'"), and then we can talk.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    It is bad to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I have Muslim acquaintances. Islam comes before everything. One Egyptian young woman in the gym tells me she wants to join the army. But, doesn't want to go to the middle east. She says she could never imagine killing another Muslim. This coming from a liberal muslim, tight clothes, hair done, HOT. Go read the book, "Infidel", then we can talk. Why is it bad for him to be Muslim? Look to the east and pray twice a day, thought liberals were big on separating church amd state. If he is Muslim, why has he been hiding it? Muslim name, madrassa, 2 muslim daddies. My daddy told me if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably ain't a chicken.
    I assume, though, that you are quite content with Christian Leaders constantly propagating their faith in office? I have not seen you mention why that is incorrect as well; so, once again, this begs the question: 'Why do you feel being a Muslim is bad'?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    Actually, I spent some time studying the Upanishads, the Nyaya Vaisheshika, the Bhagavad Gita, the Qur'an, and the Kalam (Rational Theology) School as a part of a Minor in Eastern Philosophy; however, I appreciate both your incorrect assumptions about Eastern Theology/Philosophy, and your subtle condescendence!

    So, scotty2, I would suggest ceasing your blatant extrapolation ("I knew some HOT Muslim chick, so ALL Muslims must be 'as such'"), and then we can talk.
    And I studied whirling dervishes, what does THAT mean. Why are there no moderate Muslims up on their soapboxes condemning acts of terror? If there are any, they are a very small minority. I used one personal reference I thought you might be able to understand, would you like a littany of personal muslim reference stories? I thought not. Apparently I paint with the proverbial "broad" brush. Whatever, at least your "tolerant".

    “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” Who wrote that? He was a stupid man, though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    I assume, though, that you are quite content with Christian Leaders constantly propagating their faith in office? I have not seen you mention why that is incorrect as well; so, once again, this begs the question: 'Why do you feel being a Muslim is bad'?
    Country founded on Judeo-Christian values, blah, blah, blah. Not Islam, sorry. Don't like it, leave. Who the hell even talks about faith anymore in office? A god reference here and there I would hardly call propagating. I'm no bible thumper, but, last time I looked the 10 commandments were not exactly a horrible way to fashion a life. Unless of course you cheat on your wife, **** on your parents, steal, and kill. Then I could see where they would be offensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    And I studied whirling dervishes, what does THAT mean. Why are there no moderate Muslims up on their soapboxes condemning acts of terror? If there are any, they are a very small minority. I used one personal reference I thought you might be able to understand, would you like a littany of personal muslim reference stories? I thought not. Apparently I paint with the proverbial "broad" brush. Whatever, at least your "tolerant".
    I mentioned what I studied because your vast knowledge of "Infidel" apparently precluded me from having any knowledge on the subject; however, to be blunt, it means I can assure you that you are speaking out of your ass and have no clue about Muslim Theology/Philosophy in this particular instance.

    Actually, the vast majority of Moderate Muslims condemn terror as the Qur'an does not necessarily call for physical violence as a function of 'Jihad'; in fact, 'Jihad' does not quite equate to 'Holy War' as it is often improperly characterized as - obviously insinuating a physical war between religious sects. 'Jihad' is more properly translated as 'Spiritual War', or 'War of the Personal Spirit': The process of self-knowledge and betterment. There are actually five 'Jihads', with the 'least Jihad' containing physical violence against 'infidels' - and, obviously you know there is a socio-historical context to this because of the one book you read. You should possibly look harder, or learn not to extrapolate from your one 'gym friend' to an entire Religious order, with even more diverse cultural implications therein?


    “If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” Who wrote that? He was a stupid man, though.
    Actually, I am quite far from a bleeding heart Liberal; I simply think what you are saying is bull**** in this particular instance, and guided by a complete lack of knowledge in terms of primary documents.

    Though, you have read "Infidel" - a book which carelessly lumps together some two billion people with separate ethnic, political, territorial, social, and specific-religious beliefs into one broad category.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    Country founded on Judeo-Christian values, blah, blah, blah. Not Islam, sorry. Don't like it, leave. Who the hell even talks about faith anymore in office? A god reference here and there I would hardly call propagating. I'm no bible thumper, but, last time I looked the 10 commandments were not exactly a horrible way to fashion a life. Unless of course you cheat on your wife, **** on your parents, steal, and kill. Then I could see where they would be offensive.
    So Islam and Muslims are bad because you are not one of them? There, that is all you had to say.

    I can never understand people such as yourself: Bigots who try to legitimize their beliefs through politics and rationale - you dislike a particular religion and culture, of which you know nothing about, for no other reason than misguide fear. If that is not unfortunate enough, you attempt to dress it up in some tired guise. I would respect you more for simply stating the obvious.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mulletsoldier View Post
    So Islam and Muslims are bad because you are not one of them? There, that is all you had to say.

    I can never understand people such as yourself: Bigots who try to legitimize their beliefs through politics and rationale - you dislike a particular religion and culture, of which you know nothing about, for no other reason than misguide fear. If that is not unfortunate enough, you attempt to dress it up in some tired guise. I would respect you more for simply stating the obvious.
    Bigot. So easy to press that button. The ole go to. Just call them a bigot. Yeah, I know nothing of muslims. I lived in Brooklyn for many years. Not sure if you're aware, there are a couple there. Keep reading those cute, liberal textbooks, where everyone loves each other. I had to come home from work on 9/11/01 watching the entire 5 ave. Muslim contingent throwing a party over the death of almost 3000 people. That's ok, they're harmless. I looked around and nary another person of another race or religion celebrating with them. HMMM, guess I pulled THAT out of my ass as well. Every reference of yours seems to be regurgitated out of the Muslim propaganda guide. You a member of the American Arab anti-defamation league?

    http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev092308b.cfm

    This woman is a bigot as well. More ass pulling, I guess.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    Bigot. So easy to press that button. The ole go to. Just call them a bigot. Yeah, I know nothing of muslims. I lived in Brooklyn for many years. Not sure if you're aware, there are a couple there. Keep reading those cute, liberal textbooks, where everyone loves each other. I had to come home from work on 9/11/01 watching the entire 5 ave. Muslim contingent throwing a party over the death of almost 3000 people. That's ok, they're harmless. I looked around and nary another person of another race or religion celebrating with them. HMMM, guess I pulled THAT out of my ass as well. Every reference of yours seems to be regurgitated out of the Muslim propaganda guide. You a member of the American Arab anti-defamation league?



    http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev092308b.cfm

    This woman is a bigot as well. More ass pulling, I guess.
    I can understand your feelings in the sense that on 911 I wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about muslims and having lost 2 close friends that day, had I saw a party, my blood would have boiled and I'm pretty sure most people on this board feel somewhat the same. That being said do you really think that all arabs feel that way, that's just unrealistic. To take this back to the original argument, You can believe what you want but Barack Obama is not a muslim and no matter how they or you try, he won't be made into one.

    :bruce3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastone View Post
    I can understand your feelings in the sense that on 911 I wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about muslims and having lost 2 close friends that day, had I saw a party, my blood would have boiled and I'm pretty sure most people on this board feel somewhat the same. That being said do you really think that all arabs feel that way, that's just unrealistic. To take this back to the original argument, You can believe what you want but Barack Obama is not a muslim and no matter how they or you try, he won't be made into one.

    :bruce3:
    I'm not making the argument that he is. But, why take the chance. Even leaving the Islam out of the equation, there are still many questions and too many shady figures in his history.

    Do I really feel all arabs fell that way? I'll tell you what. That night, there were several hundred(maybe 200)Muslim revelers on 5 ave. Were they all extremists? Absolutely not, there were 17 yr olds dressed in their hip hop best. I saw a gentleman who goes to my gym, who is polite enough to say hello. There was also a store proprietor who is also very nice when I had gone in there. THIS is how they REALLY feel. These are people among whom I live and work. Had I not seen it for myself, I would never have believed it. Not gonna find that in your textbook, sorry. Mulletsoldier, it is nice to see someone who uses the king's english with such eloquence. It has been a pleasure reading your writing, as much as I may disagree with most of it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by scotty2 View Post
    I'm not making the argument that he is. But, why take the chance. Even leaving the Islam out of the equation, there are still many questions and too many shady figures in his history.

    Do I really feel all arabs fell that way? I'll tell you what. That night, there were several hundred(maybe 200)Muslim revelers on 5 ave. Were they all extremists? Absolutely not, there were 17 yr olds dressed in their hip hop best. I saw a gentleman who goes to my gym, who is polite enough to say hello. There was also a store proprietor who is also very nice when I had gone in there. THIS is how they REALLY feel. These are people among whom I live and work. Had I not seen it for myself, I would never have believed it. Not gonna find that in your textbook, sorry. Mulletsoldier, it is nice to see someone who uses the king's english with such eloquence. It has been a pleasure reading your writing, as much as I may disagree with most of it.
    You know it's funny, I grew up in Brooklyn but it was very different then. The local mosque where I now live was very quiet that night and for quite a while. btw, there are shady characters in every politicians history.

    :bruce3:
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fastone View Post
    You know it's funny, I grew up in Brooklyn but it was very different then. The local mosque where I now live was very quiet that night and for quite a while. btw, there are shady characters in every politicians history.

    :bruce3:
    Absolutely. This guy is just too risky. Also, am I ignorant enough to believe that ALL arabs feel that way........no. I know there are plenty of patriotic, hard working arab americans, I've worked with several. We just don't hear from them enough.
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    I agree. BHO isn't a Muslim as of right now, but he is shady as a mofo.

    In 10 years, he's gone from nowhere to a presidential front runner. That should get more examination and fact-checking then taking a happy autobiography at face value.
  

  
 

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