A Conservative for Obama

BodyWizard

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A Conservative for Obama

My party has slipped its moorings. It’s time for a true pragmatist to lead the country.

Leading Off
By Wick Allison,
EDITOR IN CHIEF

THE MORE I LISTEN TO AND READ ABOUT “the most liberal member of the U.S. Senate,” the more I like him. Barack Obama strikes a chord with me like no political figure since Ronald Reagan. To explain why, I need to explain why I am a conservative and what it means to me.

In 1964, at the age of 16, I organized the Dallas County Youth for Goldwater. My senior thesis at the University of Texas was on the conservative intellectual revival in America. Twenty years later, I was invited by William F. Buckley Jr. to join the board of National Review. I later became its publisher.

Conservatism to me is less a political philosophy than a stance, a recognition of the fallibility of man and of man’s institutions. Conservatives respect the past not for its antiquity but because it represents, as G.K. Chesterton said, the democracy of the dead; it gives the benefit of the doubt to customs and laws tried and tested in the crucible of time. Conservatives are skeptical of abstract theories and utopian schemes, doubtful that government is wiser than its citizens, and always ready to test any political program against actual results.

Liberalism always seemed to me to be a system of “oughts.” We ought to do this or that because it’s the right thing to do, regardless of whether it works or not. It is a doctrine based on intentions, not results, on feeling good rather than doing good.

But today it is so-called conservatives who are cemented to political programs when they clearly don’t work. The Bush tax cuts—a solution for which there was no real problem and which he refused to end even when the nation went to war—led to huge deficit spending and a $3 trillion growth in the federal debt. Facing this, John McCain pumps his “conservative” credentials by proposing even bigger tax cuts. Meanwhile, a movement that once fought for limited government has presided over the greatest growth of government in our history. That is not conservatism; it is profligacy using conservatism as a mask.

Today it is conservatives, not liberals, who talk with alarming bellicosity about making the world “safe for democracy.” It is John McCain who says America’s job is to “defeat evil,” a theological expansion of the nation’s mission that would make George Washington cough out his wooden teeth.

This kind of conservatism, which is not conservative at all, has produced financial mismanagement, the waste of human lives, the loss of moral authority, and the wreckage of our economy that McCain now threatens to make worse.

Barack Obama is not my ideal candidate for president. (In fact, I made the maximum donation to John McCain during the primaries, when there was still hope he might come to his senses.) But I now see that Obama is almost the ideal candidate for this moment in American history. I disagree with him on many issues. But those don’t matter as much as what Obama offers, which is a deeply conservative view of the world. Nobody can read Obama’s books (which, it is worth noting, he wrote himself) or listen to him speak without realizing that this is a thoughtful, pragmatic, and prudent man. It gives me comfort just to think that after eight years of George W. Bush we will have a president who has actually read the Federalist Papers.

Most important, Obama will be a realist. I doubt he will taunt Russia, as McCain has, at the very moment when our national interest requires it as an ally. The crucial distinction in my mind is that, unlike John McCain, I am convinced he will not impulsively take us into another war unless American national interests are directly threatened.

“Every great cause,” Eric Hoffer wrote, “begins as a movement, becomes a business, and eventually degenerates into a racket.” As a cause, conservatism may be dead. But as a stance, as a way of making judgments in a complex and difficult world, I believe it is very much alive in the instincts and predispositions of a liberal named Barack Obama.
 
RobInKuwait

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This guy is just like everyone else. He thinks to himself....what do I want an Obama to be, and convinces himself that BHO is that man.
 

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Rugger

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I like how he uses conservatives expanding government as an excuse to vote for Obama; like Obama wont expand government LOL. This guy seriously has some international relations and history to catch up on. He thinks Russia will be an ally for the US? PAH. The last thing Russia needs is some slack. Missile shield? Ossetia? Yeah, let's back down from Russia. I'm sure Putin and Medvedev are actually sweetie pies.
 
BodyWizard

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I figured "you guys" would blank right over this, so let me put it before you again:
THE MORE I LISTEN TO AND READ ABOUT “the most liberal member of the U.S. Senate,” the more I like him. Barack Obama strikes a chord with me like no political figure since Ronald Reagan. To explain why, I need to explain why I am a conservative and what it means to me.

In 1964, at the age of 16, I organized the Dallas County Youth for Goldwater. My senior thesis at the University of Texas was on the conservative intellectual revival in America. Twenty years later, I was invited by William F. Buckley Jr. to join the board of National Review. I later became its publisher.

Conservatism to me is less a political philosophy than a stance, a recognition of the fallibility of man and of man’s institutions. Conservatives respect the past not for its antiquity but because it represents, as G.K. Chesterton said, the democracy of the dead; it gives the benefit of the doubt to customs and laws tried and tested in the crucible of time. Conservatives are skeptical of abstract theories and utopian schemes, doubtful that government is wiser than its citizens, and always ready to test any political program against actual results.

Liberalism always seemed to me to be a system of “oughts.” We ought to do this or that because it’s the right thing to do, regardless of whether it works or not. It is a doctrine based on intentions, not results, on feeling good rather than doing good.

But today it is so-called conservatives who are cemented to political programs when they clearly don’t work. The Bush tax cuts—a solution for which there was no real problem and which he refused to end even when the nation went to war—led to huge deficit spending and a $3 trillion growth in the federal debt. Facing this, John McCain pumps his “conservative” credentials by proposing even bigger tax cuts. Meanwhile, a movement that once fought for limited government has presided over the greatest growth of government in our history. That is not conservatism; it is profligacy using conservatism as a mask.

Today it is conservatives, not liberals, who talk with alarming bellicosity about making the world “safe for democracy.” It is John McCain who says America’s job is to “defeat evil,” a theological expansion of the nation’s mission that would make George Washington cough out his wooden teeth.

This kind of conservatism, which is not conservative at all, has produced financial mismanagement, the waste of human lives, the loss of moral authority, and the wreckage of our economy that McCain now threatens to make worse.
"You guys" should really try absorbing opinions & points of view "you" don't already know "you" agree with, once in a while, try thinking outside the single-point-of-view echo chamber you're trapped in.

'Course, "you" could just continue to post fact-free screeds from Prager, Malkin & their catastrophic ilk...but that would add nothing to the conversation, either inside your heads, or in the world around you.

Or "you" could actually, y'know, *think* about why people who've always been in the conservative camp have been jumping ship after many decades - I mean, aren't "you" even curious? Do you even *remember* that Arianna Huffington first gained attention as a voice for the Reagan Democrats? Or that she bailed early in the Bush '43 administration? Or that in doing so she followed in the footsteps of long-time Republican strategist & Nixon / Reagan staffer Kevin Phillps (who bailed on Pappy for related reasons)? (I'd suggest you read Huffington's "Pigs at the Trough", and pretty much anything by Phillips ("American Theocracy," "The Arrogance of Capital") but it's become pretty clear that "you guys" don't trust anyone or anything from outside "your" echo-chamber).

Did y'all notice that Bill Buckley - father of the modern conservative movement in American politics - was thrown under the bus by the neo-cons after they started coming into power (seeming comparatively "liberal" in contrast, after the relentless march to the "Right" driven by Pearl, Wolfowitz, Kristol, Podhoretz, et al)?

Or is it all just team-sports to "you"? "You" support "your team", and anything goes, fair or foul, 'second-place is for losers'? Honesty, facts, reason, logic, persuasion are for weak-kneed chumps, not REAL AMERICANS? Real men don't "DO" nuance?

The reason "you" & other such are in quotes is because my remarks are specific to the responses - not to the individual bros who replied. Much the same comments could have been made by any of a dozen different guys, and my follow-up comments would have been much the same, as well. None of this is personal: I got a ton o' respect for you, Rob - and you've earned it; Rugger, I don't know you so well, but I have no reason to antagonize you, and my history on the board is of not p!ssing people off for no reason. Fair enough?
 
RobInKuwait

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I understand your point of view and the guy in your article's point of view. I definitely think this guy's logic is off base. Just because the quasi conservative president in place expanded government doesn't mean that a super liberal if elected will not. As far as blaming this economic situtation on Bush, I think he is way off base.

McCain is not on my team, Obama is on the team I hate.

Obama's policies are the antithesis of everything I see as right in the world. Compound his policies with a democratic congress who will pass everything without a second thought and it is truly a recipe for disaster.
 
LakeMountD

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I can understand where he is coming from but what I can't figure out is how he thinks BHO is going to make his situation any better lol.
 
BodyWizard

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Naw, that's just another flavor of "Obama-Haters Against America" :hammer:
 
RobInKuwait

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Naw, that's just another flavor of "Obama-Haters Against America" :hammer:
Didn't Obama go to a church who's pastor of 20 years said during a sermon,

"Not God Bless America, God Damn America!"

......and now somehow people that hate Obama are against America?
 
Mulletsoldier

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Eyeblast.tv - A Video Portrait Of Barack Hussein Obama

Another lovely piece on what a delightful human being he is..........not sure how anyone who calls himself conservative would even speak his name. This guy is plain old dangerous, god bless us all.
I believe this piece lost its objectivity and seriousness when it said: "Do we want to elect a president with not one, but three Islamic names?". I had not realized that names were the new criterion for judging the potential viability of a candidate, lol!

I also appreciate the attempt at implicit racial syllogisms:

Muslims are bad.
If one attends a Muslim School, they are a Muslim.
Barack attended a Muslim School.
Barack is a Muslim.
Barack is bad.

Simply pitiful and ridiculous; I attempt to remain objective in these discussions, but videos like this do nothing for the progress of representative democracy. I truly hope you do not take this tripe to heart.
 

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I believe this piece lost its objectivity and seriousness when it said: "Do we want to elect a president with not one, but three Islamic names?". I had not realized that names were the new criterion for judging the potential viability of a candidate, lol!

I also appreciate the attempt at implicit racial syllogisms:

Muslims are bad.
If one attends a Muslim School, they are a Muslim.
Barack attended a Muslim School.
Barack is a Muslim.
Barack is bad.

Simply pitiful and ridiculous; I attempt to remain objective in these discussions, but videos like this do nothing for the progress of representative democracy. I truly hope you do not take this tripe to heart.
I pray you are right, because if you are wrong, we are all pretty ****ed. Enjoy the ride, sir.
 
Mulletsoldier

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I pray you are right, because if you are wrong, we are all pretty ****ed. Enjoy the ride, sir.
I have more of a spectator seat, but I will enjoy watching your ride (not American).
 
RobInKuwait

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I believe this piece lost its objectivity and seriousness when it said: "Do we want to elect a president with not one, but three Islamic names?". I had not realized that names were the new criterion for judging the potential viability of a candidate, lol!

I also appreciate the attempt at implicit racial syllogisms:

Muslims are bad.
If one attends a Muslim School, they are a Muslim.
Barack attended a Muslim School.
Barack is a Muslim.
Barack is bad.

Simply pitiful and ridiculous; I attempt to remain objective in these discussions, but videos like this do nothing for the progress of representative democracy. I truly hope you do not take this tripe to heart.
I think one could make a convincing case that Islam is an inherently evil religion. If you look at its teachings and its history, within 100 years of Muhammed's death, Muslim Jihadist had taken over the entire Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, and Iberian Penninsula. Other religions were then outlawed and vilified by Islamic Caliphs throughout the Muslim world.

Islam's fundamental pillars does not include Jihad, but is known as the 6th unofficial pillar to many Muslim sects. This "6th pillar" of Jihad has been used to justify terrorist acts and wars for over a thousand years. This doesn't include all Islamic sects, but the link of Islam and Jihad is irrefutable.

In addition, many Islamic governments consistently place severe limitations woman's rights and individual liberties using the Quran's teachings as justification for their laws.
 
Mulletsoldier

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I think one could make a convincing case that Islam is an inherently evil religion. If you look at its teachings and its history, within 100 years of Muhammed's death, Muslim Jihadist had taken over the entire Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, and Iberian Penninsula. Other religions were then outlawed and vilified by Islamic Caliphs throughout the Muslim world.

Islam's fundamental pillars does not include Jihad, but is known as the 6th unofficial pillar to many Muslim sects. This "6th pillar" of Jihad has been used to justify terrorist acts and wars for over a thousand years. This doesn't include all Islamic sects, but the link of Islam and Jihad is irrefutable.

In addition, many Islamic governments consistently place severe limitations woman's rights and individual liberties using the Quran's teachings as justification for their laws.
And the case could just as easily be made that preconceived notions, founded on a latent and implicit sense of geopolitical-driven racism, both fabricate and perpetuate that notion.

The case could also be reasonably made that this video is fundamentally ridiculous, and you realize that (you are smart); Islam tended toward violence, not evil - differences abound, but I will refrain from elaborating further.
 
RobInKuwait

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And the case could just as easily be made that preconceived notions, founded on a latent and implicit sense of geopolitical-driven racism, both fabricate and perpetuate that notion.

The case could also be reasonably made that this video is fundamentally ridiculous, and you realize that (you are smart); Islam tended toward violence, not evil - differences abound, but I will refrain from elaborating further.
Well said. Was curious how you'd respond to that post. :clap2:
 

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What person/persons ever believed what that were doing was wrong. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, so did Lenin, Stalin, Mao, et al. Fact is islamo-fascism is dangerous to those who aren't Muslim. So, to bring up evil is just silly. Outlandish arguments made by people who's logic is immersed in ignorance. Can't wait until we try socialized health care(never been done before:rolleyes:) under the new article in the constitution, right next to the other amendment, right to buy a house at anyone's expense. Good stuff.
 
Mulletsoldier

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What person/persons ever believed what that were doing was wrong. Hitler thought he was doing the right thing, so did Lenin, Stalin, Mao, et al. Fact is islamo-fascism is dangerous to those who aren't Muslim. So, to bring up evil is just silly. Outlandish arguments made by people who's logic is immersed in ignorance. Can't wait until we try socialized health care(never been done before:rolleyes:) under the new article in the constitution, right next to the other amendment, right to buy a house at anyone's expense. Good stuff.
I am merely making the distinction between Islam as a religious doctrine, and Radical Islamic Fundamentalism as a fundamentally geopolitical tool; you are not! Aside from that, you would be hard pressed to convince me you feel Barack Obama is an Islamic Fundamentalist - very hard pressed.
 

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I think one could make a convincing case that Islam is an inherently evil religion. If you look at its teachings and its history, within 100 years of Muhammed's death, Muslim Jihadist had taken over the entire Middle East, Turkey, North Africa, and Iberian Penninsula. Other religions were then outlawed and vilified by Islamic Caliphs throughout the Muslim world.

Islam's fundamental pillars does not include Jihad, but is known as the 6th unofficial pillar to many Muslim sects. This "6th pillar" of Jihad has been used to justify terrorist acts and wars for over a thousand years. This doesn't include all Islamic sects, but the link of Islam and Jihad is irrefutable.

In addition, many Islamic governments consistently place severe limitations woman's rights and individual liberties using the Quran's teachings as justification for their laws.
I am not sure how much background you have in the study of Islam and the Qu'ran, but I will say this, anything when taken out of context can be made evil. The Old Testament and New Testament share that same distinction.
 

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I am merely making the distinction between Islam as a religious doctrine, and Radical Islamic Fundamentalism as a fundamentally geopolitical tool; you are not! Aside from that, you would be hard pressed to convince me you feel Barack Obama is an Islamic Fundamentalist - very hard pressed.
Not saying that at all. My only point is this guy is a complete unkown quantity. Saddle that with too many question marks, it's a bad bet, period. At best, he's a hack with poor judgment. At worst, well, draw your own conclusion. And, make no mistake, McCain is an absolute tool, however, I am not downright FRIGHTENED of McCain.
 
Mulletsoldier

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...Not saying that at all...
You are most definitely implying as such, though; one explanation is as good as the other. If not, I fail to realize why you would have mentioned the 'evilness' of Islam and so forth, or made mention to previous Fascist dictators. Let us be clear with our words as to not confuse the issue! If you feel Barack Obama is a national security threat - due to your perceptions of both his faith and Islam - say so; but, however, please do not muddle that with policy!
 

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Go back and read, then tell me where I said it was evil. You brought it up in your six degees to islamo-fascist reference. I made the comment that even fascist dictators(so they thought)had their hearts in the right place. Don't know how to make it any clearer. Oh yeah, he's not a muslim, though. Only his 2 daddies were. Like saying his wife isn't a black panther. Last I checked if one went to a muslim school, it wasn't to learn how to be a christian. I went to catholic school, wonder why there weren't any jews. Keep turning a blind eye, guy, for the sake of political correctness.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Go back and read, then tell me where I said it was evil. You brought it up in your six degees to islamo-fascist reference. I made the comment that even fascist dictators(so they thought)had their hearts in the right place. Don't know how to make it any clearer. Oh yeah, he's not a muslim, though. Only his 2 daddies were. Like saying his wife isn't a black panther. Last I checked if one went to a muslim school, it wasn't to learn how to be a christian. I went to catholic school, wonder why there weren't any jews. Keep turning a blind eye, guy, for the sake of political correctness.
Why is it bad to be Muslim? This is the point about misconceptions and prejudices I was attempting to delineate previously; you keep insinuating, very obviously, that you feel it is "bad" for him to be Muslim. Explain why.
 
Fastone

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Not saying that at all. My only point is this guy is a complete unkown quantity. Saddle that with too many question marks, it's a bad bet, period. At best, he's a hack with poor judgment. At worst, well, draw your own conclusion. And, make no mistake, McCain is an absolute tool, however, I am not downright FRIGHTENED of McCain.
Of course not because he looks like you. 8 years ago John McCain was treated like a joke by the GOP. What makes him so different now, the Spokesmodel? btw,Welcome to Republicans for Obama | Republicans for Obama

:bruce3:
 

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It is bad to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I have Muslim acquaintances. Islam comes before everything. One Egyptian young woman in the gym tells me she wants to join the army. But, doesn't want to go to the middle east. She says she could never imagine killing another Muslim. This coming from a liberal muslim, tight clothes, hair done, HOT. Go read the book, "Infidel", then we can talk. Why is it bad for him to be Muslim? Look to the east and pray twice a day, thought liberals were big on separating church amd state. If he is Muslim, why has he been hiding it? Muslim name, madrassa, 2 muslim daddies. My daddy told me if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably ain't a chicken.
 
BodyWizard

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My only point is this guy is a complete unkown quantity.
Only if you believe people who say he's "a complete unkown quantity".

And if he IS so completely unknown, why are you sure YOU know so much more about him? Serious question.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Go read the book, "Infidel", then we can talk. Why is it bad for him to be Muslim? Look to the east and pray twice a day, thought liberals were big on separating church amd state.
Actually, I spent some time studying the Upanishads, the Nyaya Vaisheshika, the Bhagavad Gita, the Qur'an, and the Kalam (Rational Theology) School as a part of a Minor in Eastern Philosophy; however, I appreciate both your incorrect assumptions about Eastern Theology/Philosophy, and your subtle condescendence!

So, scotty2, I would suggest ceasing your blatant extrapolation ("I knew some HOT Muslim chick, so ALL Muslims must be 'as such'"), and then we can talk. :)
 
Mulletsoldier

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It is bad to be a wolf in sheep's clothing. I have Muslim acquaintances. Islam comes before everything. One Egyptian young woman in the gym tells me she wants to join the army. But, doesn't want to go to the middle east. She says she could never imagine killing another Muslim. This coming from a liberal muslim, tight clothes, hair done, HOT. Go read the book, "Infidel", then we can talk. Why is it bad for him to be Muslim? Look to the east and pray twice a day, thought liberals were big on separating church amd state. If he is Muslim, why has he been hiding it? Muslim name, madrassa, 2 muslim daddies. My daddy told me if it looks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably ain't a chicken.
I assume, though, that you are quite content with Christian Leaders constantly propagating their faith in office? I have not seen you mention why that is incorrect as well; so, once again, this begs the question: 'Why do you feel being a Muslim is bad'?
 

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Actually, I spent some time studying the Upanishads, the Nyaya Vaisheshika, the Bhagavad Gita, the Qur'an, and the Kalam (Rational Theology) School as a part of a Minor in Eastern Philosophy; however, I appreciate both your incorrect assumptions about Eastern Theology/Philosophy, and your subtle condescendence!

So, scotty2, I would suggest ceasing your blatant extrapolation ("I knew some HOT Muslim chick, so ALL Muslims must be 'as such'"), and then we can talk. :)
And I studied whirling dervishes, what does THAT mean. Why are there no moderate Muslims up on their soapboxes condemning acts of terror? If there are any, they are a very small minority. I used one personal reference I thought you might be able to understand, would you like a littany of personal muslim reference stories? I thought not. Apparently I paint with the proverbial "broad" brush. Whatever, at least your "tolerant".

“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” Who wrote that? He was a stupid man, though.:sad:
 

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I assume, though, that you are quite content with Christian Leaders constantly propagating their faith in office? I have not seen you mention why that is incorrect as well; so, once again, this begs the question: 'Why do you feel being a Muslim is bad'?
Country founded on Judeo-Christian values, blah, blah, blah. Not Islam, sorry. Don't like it, leave. Who the hell even talks about faith anymore in office? A god reference here and there I would hardly call propagating. I'm no bible thumper, but, last time I looked the 10 commandments were not exactly a horrible way to fashion a life. Unless of course you cheat on your wife, **** on your parents, steal, and kill. Then I could see where they would be offensive.
 
Mulletsoldier

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And I studied whirling dervishes, what does THAT mean. Why are there no moderate Muslims up on their soapboxes condemning acts of terror? If there are any, they are a very small minority. I used one personal reference I thought you might be able to understand, would you like a littany of personal muslim reference stories? I thought not. Apparently I paint with the proverbial "broad" brush. Whatever, at least your "tolerant".
I mentioned what I studied because your vast knowledge of "Infidel" apparently precluded me from having any knowledge on the subject; however, to be blunt, it means I can assure you that you are speaking out of your ass and have no clue about Muslim Theology/Philosophy in this particular instance.

Actually, the vast majority of Moderate Muslims condemn terror as the Qur'an does not necessarily call for physical violence as a function of 'Jihad'; in fact, 'Jihad' does not quite equate to 'Holy War' as it is often improperly characterized as - obviously insinuating a physical war between religious sects. 'Jihad' is more properly translated as 'Spiritual War', or 'War of the Personal Spirit': The process of self-knowledge and betterment. There are actually five 'Jihads', with the 'least Jihad' containing physical violence against 'infidels' - and, obviously you know there is a socio-historical context to this because of the one book you read. You should possibly look harder, or learn not to extrapolate from your one 'gym friend' to an entire Religious order, with even more diverse cultural implications therein?


“If you're not a liberal at twenty you have no heart, if you're not a conservative at forty you have no brain.” Who wrote that? He was a stupid man, though.:sad:
Actually, I am quite far from a bleeding heart Liberal; I simply think what you are saying is bullshit in this particular instance, and guided by a complete lack of knowledge in terms of primary documents.

Though, you have read "Infidel" - a book which carelessly lumps together some two billion people with separate ethnic, political, territorial, social, and specific-religious beliefs into one broad category.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Country founded on Judeo-Christian values, blah, blah, blah. Not Islam, sorry. Don't like it, leave. Who the hell even talks about faith anymore in office? A god reference here and there I would hardly call propagating. I'm no bible thumper, but, last time I looked the 10 commandments were not exactly a horrible way to fashion a life. Unless of course you cheat on your wife, **** on your parents, steal, and kill. Then I could see where they would be offensive.
So Islam and Muslims are bad because you are not one of them? There, that is all you had to say.

I can never understand people such as yourself: Bigots who try to legitimize their beliefs through politics and rationale - you dislike a particular religion and culture, of which you know nothing about, for no other reason than misguide fear. If that is not unfortunate enough, you attempt to dress it up in some tired guise. I would respect you more for simply stating the obvious.
 

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So Islam and Muslims are bad because you are not one of them? There, that is all you had to say.

I can never understand people such as yourself: Bigots who try to legitimize their beliefs through politics and rationale - you dislike a particular religion and culture, of which you know nothing about, for no other reason than misguide fear. If that is not unfortunate enough, you attempt to dress it up in some tired guise. I would respect you more for simply stating the obvious.
Bigot. So easy to press that button. The ole go to. Just call them a bigot. Yeah, I know nothing of muslims. I lived in Brooklyn for many years. Not sure if you're aware, there are a couple there. Keep reading those cute, liberal textbooks, where everyone loves each other. I had to come home from work on 9/11/01 watching the entire 5 ave. Muslim contingent throwing a party over the death of almost 3000 people. That's ok, they're harmless. I looked around and nary another person of another race or religion celebrating with them. HMMM, guess I pulled THAT out of my ass as well. Every reference of yours seems to be regurgitated out of the Muslim propaganda guide. You a member of the American Arab anti-defamation league?

http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev092308b.cfm

This woman is a bigot as well. More ass pulling, I guess.
 
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Bigot. So easy to press that button. The ole go to. Just call them a bigot. Yeah, I know nothing of muslims. I lived in Brooklyn for many years. Not sure if you're aware, there are a couple there. Keep reading those cute, liberal textbooks, where everyone loves each other. I had to come home from work on 9/11/01 watching the entire 5 ave. Muslim contingent throwing a party over the death of almost 3000 people. That's ok, they're harmless. I looked around and nary another person of another race or religion celebrating with them. HMMM, guess I pulled THAT out of my ass as well. Every reference of yours seems to be regurgitated out of the Muslim propaganda guide. You a member of the American Arab anti-defamation league?



http://www.heritage.org/Press/Events/ev092308b.cfm

This woman is a bigot as well. More ass pulling, I guess.
I can understand your feelings in the sense that on 911 I wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about muslims and having lost 2 close friends that day, had I saw a party, my blood would have boiled and I'm pretty sure most people on this board feel somewhat the same. That being said do you really think that all arabs feel that way, that's just unrealistic. To take this back to the original argument, You can believe what you want but Barack Obama is not a muslim and no matter how they or you try, he won't be made into one.

:bruce3:
 

scotty2

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I can understand your feelings in the sense that on 911 I wasn't feeling warm and fuzzy about muslims and having lost 2 close friends that day, had I saw a party, my blood would have boiled and I'm pretty sure most people on this board feel somewhat the same. That being said do you really think that all arabs feel that way, that's just unrealistic. To take this back to the original argument, You can believe what you want but Barack Obama is not a muslim and no matter how they or you try, he won't be made into one.

:bruce3:
I'm not making the argument that he is. But, why take the chance. Even leaving the Islam out of the equation, there are still many questions and too many shady figures in his history.

Do I really feel all arabs fell that way? I'll tell you what. That night, there were several hundred(maybe 200)Muslim revelers on 5 ave. Were they all extremists? Absolutely not, there were 17 yr olds dressed in their hip hop best. I saw a gentleman who goes to my gym, who is polite enough to say hello. There was also a store proprietor who is also very nice when I had gone in there. THIS is how they REALLY feel. These are people among whom I live and work. Had I not seen it for myself, I would never have believed it. Not gonna find that in your textbook, sorry. Mulletsoldier, it is nice to see someone who uses the king's english with such eloquence. It has been a pleasure reading your writing, as much as I may disagree with most of it.
 
Fastone

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I'm not making the argument that he is. But, why take the chance. Even leaving the Islam out of the equation, there are still many questions and too many shady figures in his history.

Do I really feel all arabs fell that way? I'll tell you what. That night, there were several hundred(maybe 200)Muslim revelers on 5 ave. Were they all extremists? Absolutely not, there were 17 yr olds dressed in their hip hop best. I saw a gentleman who goes to my gym, who is polite enough to say hello. There was also a store proprietor who is also very nice when I had gone in there. THIS is how they REALLY feel. These are people among whom I live and work. Had I not seen it for myself, I would never have believed it. Not gonna find that in your textbook, sorry. Mulletsoldier, it is nice to see someone who uses the king's english with such eloquence. It has been a pleasure reading your writing, as much as I may disagree with most of it.
You know it's funny, I grew up in Brooklyn but it was very different then. The local mosque where I now live was very quiet that night and for quite a while. btw, there are shady characters in every politicians history.

:bruce3:
 

scotty2

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You know it's funny, I grew up in Brooklyn but it was very different then. The local mosque where I now live was very quiet that night and for quite a while. btw, there are shady characters in every politicians history.

:bruce3:
Absolutely. This guy is just too risky. Also, am I ignorant enough to believe that ALL arabs feel that way........no. I know there are plenty of patriotic, hard working arab americans, I've worked with several. We just don't hear from them enough.
 
RobInKuwait

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I agree. BHO isn't a Muslim as of right now, but he is shady as a mofo.

In 10 years, he's gone from nowhere to a presidential front runner. That should get more examination and fact-checking then taking a happy autobiography at face value.
 
Mulletsoldier

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Bigot. So easy to press that button. The ole go to. Just call them a bigot. Yeah, I know nothing of muslims. I lived in Brooklyn for many years. Not sure if you're aware, there are a couple there. Keep reading those cute, liberal textbooks, where everyone loves each other. I had to come home from work on 9/11/01 watching the entire 5 ave. Muslim contingent throwing a party over the death of almost 3000 people. That's ok, they're harmless. I looked around and nary another person of another race or religion celebrating with them. HMMM, guess I pulled THAT out of my ass as well. Every reference of yours seems to be regurgitated out of the Muslim propaganda guide. You a member of the American Arab anti-defamation league?

They Must Be Stopped: Why We Must Defeat Radical Islam and How We Can Do It

This woman is a bigot as well. More ass pulling, I guess.
If you call primary documents - including the religious texts of the actual faith of Islam - 'cute liberal textbooks' than so be it; unfortunately, it does not change the inaccuracy of your positions - nor does your direct experience.

That being said, though, this would be a perfect opportunity for you to point out the inaccuracies in my statement, using something aside from your personal condescendence and conjecture; usually, I find, capitalizing words and using rhetorical sentencing is a sign you know you are incorrect.

As well, this is a definition of bigot:

big·ot (bĭg'ət)
n. One who is strongly partial to one's own group, religion, race, or politics and is intolerant of those who differ.

I asked you why you disliked Barack Obama, and in more words you said because he is Muslim; I then proceeded to ask you why Islam is 'bad', and you said:

Country founded on Judeo-Christian values, blah, blah, blah. Not Islam, sorry. Don't like it, leave. Who the hell even talks about faith anymore in office?
If you feel I have mischaracterized your words, please elaborate on this statement further. That being said, this post in the context of your previous statements (Obama is Muslim, Islam is dangerous, therefore Obama is dangerous) seems to fit the definition of bigot quite well; you are irrationally fearful of something you know nothing about.

Here is the difference between you and I, it seems: I read primary documents (the actual religious texts you are bullshitting about) and then form my opinion; you meet one person, and decide they are their entire religion's, or ethnicity's, or culture's representative. That is conservative or liberal or any political idiom, it is lacking the ability or drive to expand your perceptions beyond the closed walls of your experience.
 

scotty2

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Here is the difference between you and I, it seems: I read primary documents (the actual religious texts you are bullshitting about) and then form my opinion; you meet one person, and decide they are their entire religion's, or ethnicity's, or culture's representative. That is conservative or liberal or any political idiom, it is lacking the ability or drive to expand your perceptions beyond the closed walls of your experience.
Like reading the new testament and saying the beast will have 7 heads. And, yeah, I only know one Muslim. You got me.
 
Mulletsoldier

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I am Canadian; I literally know hundreds of Canadians, can I speak for Canada as a whole? Does my relatively small group of social relations constitute and encapsulate the collective sentiments of the nation as a whole? Or are the Canadians I know affected by specific territorial tendencies, that thereby have an affect on religion, culture, social relationships and so forth?

It seems you are failing to index the scope of your personal reference points, with the grander cultural scope as a whole.
 

scotty2

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I am Canadian; I literally know hundreds of Canadians, can I speak for Canada as a whole? Does my relatively small group of social relations constitute and encapsulate the collective sentiments of the nation as a whole? Or are the Canadians I know affected by specific territorial tendencies, that thereby have an affect on religion, culture, social relationships and so forth?

It seems you are failing to index the scope of your personal reference points, with the grander cultural scope as a whole.
You're right. I am swayed. If we're nice to them and don't hurt their feelings, maybe they won't hate us, and will accept our way of life.(Islamo-fascists, that is)
 
Mulletsoldier

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No, I said nothing about Islamo-Facists; merely suggested you lack scope - obviously, differences are abound there as well.

Do you deliberately become facetious because you are aware of your own inaccuracies, or to divert the argument? I notice rather than engage with the subject, you use sarcasm as a defense mechanism. Strange.

At any rate, you are doing exactly what your video did: Remove my comments from their native context, place them in an invalid argument, and restart your line of logic from there. However, let us backtrack, so you can regain your footing from the proper perspective.

I merely stated you lack context, and for whatever particular, extrapolate from your very specific experiences to general populations; do you see something inaccurate about such an approach?
 
Fastone

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I agree. BHO isn't a Muslim as of right now, but he is shady as a mofo.

In 10 years, he's gone from nowhere to a presidential front runner. That should get more examination and fact-checking then taking a happy autobiography at face value.
We always talk of America being the land of opportunity. Is that just a line or is it just for the special few. Barack Obama is only shady to those who don't like him, he's also fact checked more than any person in history. The present John McCain is shady to me.

What did we know of George W. Bush other than his father being a one term president and the failed businesses he ran. He got in anyway and failed another one, the biggest business in the world. Say what you will but this has all happened on his watch. Also, as far as hearing from the so called good arabs, no one really wants to hear from them, that would take away from the fear that the present administration has used to railroad us into where we are right now.

:bruce3:
 
RobInKuwait

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We always talk of America being the land of opportunity. Is that just a line or is it just for the special few. Barack Obama is only shady to those who don't like him, he's also fact checked more than any person in history. The present John McCain is shady to me.
He's fact checked more than any person in history? Please, I'd love to see his state senate records, college transcripts, and medical records. Most politicians provide those seemingly innocent documents. Obama has not and continues to resist doing so.

What did we know of George W. Bush other than his father being a one term president and the failed businesses he ran. He got in anyway and failed another one, the biggest business in the world.
So you're using Bush as your justification for the lack of knowledge about BHO? Isn't he your antithesis? Shouldn't that be a justification for looking closer at the candidates if that's the case?


Say what you will but this has all happened on his watch. Also, as far as hearing from the so called good arabs, no one really wants to hear from them, that would take away from the fear that the present administration has used to railroad us into where we are right now.
WWII happened on FDR's watch, I guess that's his fault. The Civil War happened on Lincoln's watch, I guess that his fault. Its easy to point fingers at the president, its a lot harder to actually look into the situation and figure out the actual cause.
 
Fastone

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He's fact checked more than any person in history? Please, I'd love to see his state senate records, college transcripts, and medical records. Most politicians provide those seemingly innocent documents. Obama has not and continues to resist doing so.




So you're using Bush as your justification for the lack of knowledge about BHO? Isn't he your antithesis? Shouldn't that be a justification for looking closer at the candidates if that's the case?




WWII happened on FDR's watch, I guess that's his fault. The Civil War happened on Lincoln's watch, I guess that his fault. Its easy to point fingers at the president, its a lot harder to actually look into the situation and figure out the actual cause.
1. I would think most of this is public record so, go dig it up, I'm pretty sure the conservative media is looking. Obama doesn't have to produce anything.

2. It's not a justification, it's to me a valid comparison. You can look closer all you want, it's not gonna change the fact that you are losing at this point. The typical republican strategy is to make the opposition look alien, somehow less than American, especially in this case. Obama has stayed on task speaking about the issues that are affecting normal everyday people. You may not like what he's saying but it's better than resorting to throwing bombs of hate, name calling and trying to stir up the fringe element cause it's late in the game and you aren't close to where you wish to be.

3.We were attacked by the Japanese, there weren't any phantom WMD's. If you ask in the south, the Civil War was Lincoln's fault



:bruce3:
 

scotty2

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I asked you why you disliked Barack Obama, and in more words you said because he is Muslim; I then proceeded to ask you why Islam is 'bad', and you said:

A polygamyst pederast for a prophet, but, I guess that's ok

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=097_1212607370
http://www.papillonsartpalace.com/muhtpammed.htm

http://www.catholic.com/library/endless_jihad.asp
http://www.investigativeproject.org/FCNA-CAIR.html
http://www.danielpipes.org/comments/24125

oh, and something from just today, even printed in the liberal rag,
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C01E0DE133CF937A3575BC0A9679C8B63

and 700 years of crusades

what a wonderful, peaceful religion
 
RobInKuwait

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1. I would think most of this is public record so, go dig it up, I'm pretty sure the conservative media is looking. Obama doesn't have to produce anything.
No, its not public record. He's pro-actively concealed the information.

Obama’s Years at Columbia Are a Mystery

He Graduated Without Honors

By ROSS GOLDBERG, Special to the Sun | September 2, 2008

Senator Obama’s life story, from his humble roots, to his rise to Harvard Law School, to his passion as a community organizer in Chicago, has been at the center of his presidential campaign. But one chapter of the tale remains a blank — his education at Columbia College, a place he rarely speaks about and where few people seem to remember him.

Contributing to the mystery is the fact that nobody knows just how well Mr. Obama, unlike Senator McCain and most other major candidates for the past two elections, performed as a student.

The Obama campaign has refused to release his college transcript, despite an academic career that led him to Harvard Law School and, later, to a lecturing position at the University of Chicago. The shroud surrounding his experience at Columbia contrasts with that of other major party nominees since 2000, all whom have eventually released information about their college performance or seen it leaked to the public.

For better or worse, voters have taken an interest in candidates’ grades since 1999, when the New Yorker published President Bush’s transcript at Yale and disclosed that he was a C student. Mr. Bush had never portrayed himself as a brain, but many were surprised to learn the next year that his opponent, Vice President Gore, did not do much better at Harvard despite his intellectual image. When Senator Kerry’s transcript surfaced, reporters found that he actually had a slightly lower average at Yale than Mr. Bush did…

The Obama campaign declined to comment for this article and did not offer an explanation for why his transcript has not been released. But observers speculated that one reason might be the racially charged nature of the election. Mr. Obama has acknowledged benefiting from affirmative action in the past, and details about his academic performance might open him up to critics eager to accuse him, probably unfairly, of receiving a free ride, Mr. Kabaservice said…

In contrast with the rest of Mr. Obama’s life story, little is known about his college experience. He attended Occidental College in Los Angeles for two years before transferring to Columbia in 1981. The move receives only a mention in Mr. Obama’s 1995 memoir, “Dreams from My Father,” which instead devotes that chapter to his impressions of race and class struggles in New York.

An article in a Columbia University publication, Columbia College Today, reported that Mr. Obama has portrayed Columbia as a period of buckling down following a troubled adolescence. He did not socialize much, he has said, instead spending a lot of time in the library, “like a monk.” He has also stated that he was involved to some extent with the Black Students Organization.

Federal law limits the information that Columbia can release about Mr. Obama’s time there. A spokesman for the university, Brian Connolly, confirmed that Mr. Obama spent two years at Columbia College and graduated in 1983 with a major in political science. He did not receive honors, Mr. Connolly said, though specific information on his grades is sealed. A program from the 1983 graduation ceremony lists him as a graduate…

This otherwise commendable article fails to note numerous other questions about Mr. Obama’s academic record. Questions we have repeatedly raised.

For instance, we do not know for certain what Mr. Obama studied in his undergraduate days. He claims he majored in “international affairs,” which seems a bit unlikely for an undergraduate.

And, as the article states, his degree from Columbia is in political science — not international affairs.

Moreover, we do not know why he was accepted into these schools in the first place. Obama himself has suggested he did not have the grades to meet their requirements.

By his own admission, Obama spent his final two years in high school skipping classes, playing basketball, doing cocaine and getting drunk.

Similarly, his admission to Harvard Law school is highly questionable. Where are his LSAT scores? And how does one graduate from Columbia without honors and yet get accepted at Harvard Law?

Lastly, his ascendency to the Presidency of the Harvard Law school would appear to have also been a case of blatant affirmative action, since the student Obama had only written one legal paper — and that was quite short and remarkably undistinguished.

So where are his grade transcripts? So where is the honest and open leadership that Mr. Obama has promised us?



2. It's not a justification, it's to me a valid comparison. You can look closer all you want, it's not gonna change the fact that you are losing at this point. The typical republican strategy is to make the opposition look alien, somehow less than American, especially in this case. Obama has stayed on task speaking about the issues that are affecting normal everyday people. You may not like what he's saying but it's better than resorting to throwing bombs of hate, name calling and trying to stir up the fringe element cause it's late in the game and you aren't close to where you wish to be.
I don't think "he's stayed on task", I think he's playing to his strength. His past is not his strength. He has very little experience and at best questionable ties. Wouldn't you "stay on task" if you were him?

3.We were attacked by the Japanese, there weren't any phantom WMD's. If you ask in the south, the Civil War was Lincoln's fault
WMDs were not phantom. We found them.

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/news....aspx?id=15918
 

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