The classic cutter: Test P/tren A/Mast
- 09-28-2013, 11:30 PM
- 09-29-2013, 05:34 AM
So I guess well just assume this guy died then?
- 10-04-2013, 10:27 AM
Hey guys I had a problem with my source but I have finally received my gear and just did my first injection today!
25 mg test prop
75mg tren ace
100mg mast prop
That was my first injection. Pinned left quad, went well, aspirated and no blood. No cough. Just a little soreness but that's normal and nothing unbearable.
So I'm going to post before and after pics here because before and after tren pics are hard to find on the interweb, surprisingly!
10-05-2013, 02:40 PM
Holy **** guys...I think pinning nearly 2ccs for your first injection ever is not a good plan...my virgin quad is so damn sore. I can barely walk and get out of bed! It was fine until last night. I'm hoping it goes away in a couple days..
10-05-2013, 02:51 PM
Yup. You done EFFED UP buddy. You really shouldve tried TestP first on its own before you started blasting the sh*t out of it. I personally, and many others, am highly allergic to the oil that is most commonly used to suspend testP, EO. Sounds like youre in the same boat. A little soreness should be expected often, but not being able to walk and feeling like you got jumped by a band of midgets is not good. You should really order some C or E and just get on with it, or if you have the balls to pin daily go with TNE...
10-05-2013, 04:09 PM
Loads of people say prop burns/stings a bit and that e and c are smoother. You just have to go through with it unless you have a serious reaction to it but his not likely.
Keep going and the pain should hopefully become more tolerable!
Keep us posted on your gains.
10-05-2013, 05:21 PM
I doubt there is EO in it.....virgin quads hurt...period....and some people react poorly to prop....also depends on the quality of gear
10-05-2013, 05:29 PM
Im going to have to respectfully disagree. Virgin pins will hurt, but not being able to walk or get out of bed is something else entirely. Most everyone uses EO to suspend Prop. C and E are ubiquitously known for very little pip.
Since little is known about his reaction to the shot other than pain the day after as he has described, I did reach on calling out a EO reaction. For the OP, if, as the days progress, the pain does not recede and further pins complicate the issue, I would highly recommend switching things up. There is no good reason to push through when there are less painful alternatives
10-05-2013, 05:48 PM
Guys I think it was mostly due to the large amount injected (2ccs) in a virgin muscle. Because the day before, I did a test injection in my right quad to see what the pip would be like. I injected more prop than I did on my last injection and although it was sore for a day, it is fine now. My left quad however, is swelled up and it hurts pretty bad to bend it. I'm assuming that a smaller amount would have been fine but I just injected too much, possibly too quick.
I'm switching to ED injections to keep the injection volume lower.
Pinned my right delt today.
50 mg tren (350/week)
About 20 mg test (140/week)
75 mg mast (525/week)
10-05-2013, 05:50 PM
In my first test injection, I pinned .5ccs of test prop which is more prop than I pinned in my left quad (painful one) so I don't think it's the prop, I think it's the volume of oil injected into a virgin muscle
10-05-2013, 06:09 PM
Usually a bad EO reaction is accompanied by a rash....I personally have never used prop that was in EO...I've used Tren in EO and it was super smooth....when my quads were virgin I was crippled the first few pins.....went away after a few
10-05-2013, 06:11 PM
On a side note...
Would you guys prefer doing:
50mg ED or 100mg EOD
10-05-2013, 06:18 PM
10-05-2013, 06:19 PM
10-05-2013, 06:26 PM
I always pin ed....keeps levels stable....just what I like personally
10-05-2013, 06:39 PM
10-06-2013, 12:14 AM
there are many reasons why you could be experiencing pain. Here is an article I found useful as I just had a similar experience, in my case it was the concentration of one of the compounds I am using was too high and needed to be diluted.
Hope this helps, and good luck with that:
In this article I will review the main causes of localised muscular pain, tenderness and soreness that are experienced as a result of intramuscular (IM) injections. There are two main causative groups which injection pain can be categorised:
1. Pain due to route of administration
2. Pain due to the substance being injected
Within these two categories there are further sub-groups for causes of injection pain, and these will be discussed in further detail.
1. Pain due to route of administration
i Invasiveness of injection.
The initial cause of injection pain that may be experienced is quite simply the fact that an IM injection itself is an invasive procedure, in that the body's natural barrier of skin is being penetrated by a sharp needle and any further cellular content along the needle's path is being sheared. This in itself, although relatively invasive, can cause some pain. This pain tends to be initial, however due to the design of sterile needles for injection, the curved nature of the needle point allows for minimal pain, and thus this is not a common cause of post-injection pain.
ii Opening a new IM injection site.
When a new muscular site is invaded and a volume of substance is injected therein, there is often some soreness associated with such an injection. The muscle group is not used to containing an additional volume of a substance, thus pain can result. This is usually only experienced when a site is first used for an IM injection. This is why when using a new site it is encouraged to inject a smaller amount initially, from 0.5-1ml dependent upon muscle size. Such pain and soreness usually ceases after a site has received at least one injection.
iii Physical location of injection.
Often when injecting a substance, the physical location, that is where the needle releases the substance, can result in discomfort after the injection. This is most likely due to the substance (especially if oil based and slowly absorbed) sitting in between muscle groups or in a small muscle, as this will cause more pain than being injected into the middle of a muscle or a larger muscle. This can happen from time to time even with experienced users.
iv Volume of substance injected. Tying in with point 1(ii), the volume of injection will also make a significant difference to any soreness and pain experienced. Generally larger volumes are better tolerated in larger muscle groups (gluteus, quadriceps, etc), with smaller muscle groups (biceps, triceps, etc) fair better with smaller volumes (<2ml). As you increase the volume injected, you increase the amount of substance contained within the muscle that is normally present, thus you increase the risk of an inflammatory response and soreness. Very large volumes (>5-6ml, especially of oil-based substances) are not advised due to the risk of developing a sterile abscess.
2. Pain due to the substance being injected
i Abscess development. As with any substance, unless it is sterile (and even in sterile cases bacteria on skin and body hair may be pushed past the skin barrier inside the body by the injection procedure) there is a high risk of developing an internal infection known as an abscess. This will result in large amount of swelling, redness, flu-like symptoms and increased lymphocytes thus increased inflammation resulting in a fair degree of pain experienced. The risk of such infections being developed when using completely sterile products however is very low.
ii Solvent concentration of substance. The concentration and type of solvents used in the preparation of the substance to be injected will affect any pain and soreness that will be experienced post-injection. Certain buffers and solvents used when injected in pure form give a fair amount of soreness. For example, some peptides are suspended in 100mM acetic acid, which when injected even in small amounts can give the user some discomfort. It is an important point to make that pain resulting from solvent concentrations used is most likely to commence quite soon after the injection, from a few minutes to a few hours maximum. Pain that takes longer than this to develop is usually due to other factors discussed here.
Another common solvent used as a preservative in anabolic steroid and other IM injection preparations, is benzyl alcohol (BA). At high concentrations, BA will cause injection pain in the vast majority of users. However in concentrations <10% BA, most will experience little discomfort due to BA. Many people claim that underground laboratories that make injectable anabolic steroids in a non-regulated manner use high BA percentages in their products such as testosterone propionate which is why users experience pain. However, as explained here and in point 2(iii), the BA is unlikely to be the cause of pain. This is why it should be noted that in actual fact, many pharmaceutical preparations contain higher than expected amounts of BA in them. deca-Pronabol, a pharmaceutically produced form of nandrolone decanoate, contains 9% BA and users generally report no pain associated with its injection. Some preparations of sustanon-250 by established pharmaceutical companies are made with 10% BA (0.1ml BA per 1.0ml ampoule). However, many would here argue that sustanon-250 is a sore injection for many. Despite this, when one looks at the make-up of the active ingredients of sustanon-250, we see a combined testosterone propionate and phenylpropionate amount of roughly 100mg/ml. For reasons discussed in part 2(iii), we may safely assume that the pain is more likely to occur due to the high concentration of these short esters, as opposed to merely high BA concentration. However, it is worth remembering that everyone reacts differently to various solvents and 10% BA may not cause pain for many users, but it will cause soreness for a significant percentage of other users. Other solvents within the preparation apart from the ones outlined here can also contribute or cause injection pain; however the ones discussed are the most significant in the context of anabolic steroid preparations.
3. Concentration of active product. This is probably the most prevalent cause of post-injection pain experienced by anabolic steroid users. This is most likely due to the demand for underground laboratories to produce more concentrated steroid preparations (high mg/ml of hormone) to reduce number and volumes of injections. One good example of this is the production of testosterone propionate by many different labs. If we look at the preparation of testosterone propionate by legitimate pharmaceutical companies, we see that the maximum concentration normally produced is 50mg/ml. Despite this, most underground labs today will produce multi-use vials of testosterone propionate that are at a minimum of 100mg/ml. Hormones that contain short esters on them (like acetate, propionate, phenylpropionate) have a much higher melting point and thus cannot be made as concentrated as those with longer esters (enanthate, decanoate, etc). Although testosterone propionate can be effectively made in standard amounts of solvents and oil to 100mg/ml without crashing out of this solution, once injected in the body, the solvents tend to leach out of the solution very quickly, being absorbed much quicker than the oil. This leaves behind oil and hormone in the muscle, and at the higher concentrations (which rely on solvents to not crash in solution) this will result in some of the hormone crashing out of solution to give crystals. These crystals cause significant muscular discomfort, and also can result in the recruitment of lymphocytes involved in inflammation thus the area around the crystals can get inflamed with a build up of blood cells. This takes time to dissipate and longer for the crystals to be absorbed into the body, which is why this type of pain and discomfort usually lasts for several days.
It should be noted however that there are certain carriers and solvents which allow for higher mg/ml preparations to be made that result in the reduction of pain. One solvent occasionally used is guaicol, which allows for more concentrated solutions to be produced and also acts as a slight analgesic or pain reliever at the site of injection. A more useful lipid carrier as an alternative to a normal oil carrier is ethyl oleate (EO). EO can be substituted for other carrier oils, and is a less viscous (thinner) carrier that also allows more of the hormone to be dissolved in it compared with other oils. The safety of EO for injections in humans is often questioned; however several different pharmaceutically produced injection products have been made that use EO as a carrier, most notably Farmak testosterone propionate. Furthermore, ethanol (alcohol) is converted to several products in the body when ingested, one being oleic acid. One potential issue with the use of EO however, is that a small percentage of users may experience an allergic-type reaction to its use, typified by a rash and some local discomfort, yet this is a more rare reaction to EO.
Below is a list of common anabolic steroids and when prepared with common percentages of solvents and normal oil carriers (not EO), what the maximum normal concentration that can be achieved before pain is experienced:
testosterone Propionate <100mg/ml
testosterone Enanthate <300mg/ml
testosterone Cypionate <250mg/ml
nandrolone Decanoate <325mg/ml
nandrolone Phenylpropionate <150mg/ml
trenbolone Acetate <100mg/ml
trenbolone Enanthate <250mg/ml
Boldenone Undecylenate (eq) <900mg/ml
Methenolone Enanthate <75mg/ml
Drostanolone Propionate <150mg/ml
In summary, there are various different causatives of IM pain post-injection, however the most prevalent is likely to be the concentration of hormone used in the preparation and secondly to a lesser extent, the concentration of solvents used. However as outlined, with any injection this is an invasive procedure with regards to breaking the body's natural barriers, there is always a risk of soreness and discomfort.
10-06-2013, 12:20 AM
I actually came across this article a couple times today researching PIP. I was scared I had an abscess and was going to die lol. But after a lot of reading it's just probably too high volume of liquid in a virgin muscle.
Tomorrow I'll be pinning glute for the first time!
I feel kinda sweaty today. Like warmer than usual and I sweat in my house with a sweatshirt on (it's not hot in my house). But it's about all I've noticed thus far. I'll keep updating!
10-06-2013, 12:22 AM
10-06-2013, 12:33 AM
Be it either the substance or carrier I wont ever use Prop again
10-06-2013, 12:46 AM
I actually feel great! Besides my leg lol. I am going to attribute the sweating to tren. I don't have a fever. And my first injection in my right quad of prop only went fine! Sore for a day and now it's fine. Again, I'm thinking that it's just because I injected way too much oil into a virgin muscle. It's starting to feel better and I'm assuming it will be much better tomorrow but we will see!!
I don't feel sick or feverish actually I feel really good, better than normal! Besides my leg lol
10-06-2013, 12:46 PM
Leg is better today. Wider range of bending motion, still sore though. Woke up sweaty this morning, so the tren must be kicking in
10-06-2013, 02:29 PM
Just wanted to check what you were looking to achieve/gain on this course.
What sort of calories you munching and how many weeks you on for? Also what's your PCT looking like?
10-06-2013, 03:39 PM
10-06-2013, 05:00 PM
I like your attitude!
I was talking to a fella from the gym on Friday night who has gone in with a first inj cycle at 20. (After 2 years on orals) of 800mg tren ace and 700mg test prop.
I asked his PCT plans and he said '250mg test a week......for life'
If he had said that on this forum he would have got battered!!!!
I'm watching him closely to see the results!
10-06-2013, 05:39 PM
I'm an all out kinda guy! So far I'm liking tren a lot!! Only like 3 days in but I'm already noticing more dense muscle!
10-06-2013, 06:48 PM
10-06-2013, 10:04 PM
Its a little early for the pharmacological effects of the compounds you are taking to be manifesting but I too like where your head is at
10-06-2013, 10:08 PM
10-06-2013, 10:21 PM
10-07-2013, 02:03 AM
Don't get me wrong I do worry that some people jump on with little or no knowledge and may give gear a bad name but so little real research has been done into it a lot is based on 'well my mate said...' Which is true for some but not all.
There are different ways to approach most thing and innovation can give better ways of doing things, or death!!!
10-07-2013, 01:00 PM
My leg is much better today!! I can actually walk without a limp!
Injected glute today for the first time, went well!
Haven't gotten the cough yet! (Knocks on wood)
Feel good today! Energized and pumped up! Sweating a lot lately!
10-07-2013, 01:18 PM
10-08-2013, 01:53 PM
I train five times a week. I don't have a routine really, I go in and target specific muscle groups and never have the same workout twice. I feel that constantly switching up lifts is great for contant growth. My workouts are 45 min tops, I barely rest at all. I lift to the point of exhaustion. I go in, kill it and don't stop. I mean business when I go to the gym, I've had buddies try to lift with me and they all say "dude you're crazy, you never stop!"
Anyway, day 6 of pinning ED and all of a sudden my libido took a rapid turn for the better. I've had a steel rod in my pants all day. I feel like a goddamn 15 year old with all these random woodies. Pretty nice though, as my libido has been iffy the past week or so.
No noticeable strength gains yet but will show in time I'm sure.
Still hurting from ed injections...probably not wise to do with all virgin muscles lol but oh well it will get better. Glutes might be my go to spot because I experience little to no pain there, unlike my quads!!
My nipples are already sore! But it's all good as I have some prami coming in the mail. Will be here in 2 days!
10-08-2013, 02:42 PM
Rest, is needed, plain and simple bro. You likely could get a lot more out of your workouts with the appropriate amount of recovery time. Boxers are some of the best trained cardiovascular athletes around, and they take a minute break between rounds bro. I'm not saying 1:30 between each set of bench but maybe consistently go with 30-45 seconds. At more sets then you are doing right now and I'm sure you won't be sorry. Also, the whole I hit muscles that I feel are weak, I can see being appropriate for a high level bodybuilder who knows exactly how to get what he wants out of his body. Seen as this is your first cycle I would suggest doing something routine, something that you can easily trace success and failures at. So for future cycles you can know how your body responds to achieve certain goals. For example my first cycle, not that long ago, I did GVT 3 times a weak. Kicked the ever living hell out of me, but I know now that if I want to put on size and strength that will likely be the program I will utilize. Feel free to ignore this advice, and by no means am I an expert and am trying to come down on you, I'd just like to see your first cycle be as positive of an experience as possible.
10-08-2013, 04:27 PM
There is pretty much zero research done on AAS, PHs, DS's, at the amounts that bodybuilders and other athletes use, so yeah its all pretty much observational science at this point.
But I do feel that if a 20 year old kid wants to jump on gear and take it seriously, knowing what hes taking and what it will do to his body, and how to come off if and when he chooses to, then more power to him. Many members here will disagree with me on this but telling a youngster not to do something is pointless; theyre going to do it regardless of your comments on the matter. Better he knows all he can about the subject than not, and thats why I feel educating youth about cycles is better than telling them not to do them...
10-08-2013, 04:29 PM
10-08-2013, 05:30 PM
10-08-2013, 08:36 PM
10-10-2013, 01:44 PM
Night sweats are kicking in!!! The tren is working! I just got my prami today so hopefully I'll get some good sleep tonight!!!
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