[alan aragon]

Originally Posted by AlexParty

You obviously eat throughout the day but the PWO window is not bogus, if anything it's one of the first things you learn about weight training. This article is amazing in explaining the full benefits of consuming fast carbs PWO.

"Finally, another important factor to consider is the timing of this meal. It is absolutely crucial that you consume your post-workout meal immediately after exercise. As indicated above, after exercise, the muscles are depleted and require an abundance of protein and carbohydrate. In addition, during this time, the muscles are biochemically "primed" for nutrient uptake. This phenomenon is commonly known as the "window of opportunity". Over the course of the recovery period, this window gradually closes and by failing to eat immediately after exercise, you diminish your chances of promoting full recovery. To illustrate how quickly this window closes, research has shown that consuming a post-exercise meal immediately after working out is superior to consuming one only 1 hour later. In addition, consuming one 1 hour later is superior to consuming one 3 hours later (Tipton et al 2001, Levenhagen et al 2001). If you wait too long, glycogen replenishment and protein repair will be compromised."

It better explains this if you read under "Feeding Hungry Muscles".


John Berardi - Post Workout Nutrition

Good Lord.

This "window of opportunity" concept is bullshit. Sure, feed your hungry muscles with fast-acting carbs if you were dumb enough to skip your pre-workout or mid-workout carbs. All research indicating the benefit of quick carbs was done on OVERNIGHT FASTD SUBJECTS. Furthermore, here's what Berardi doesn't discuss in that article: It takes 90-120 minutes of CONTINUOUS high-moderate intensity work (with no rest) on a single muscle group to completely deplete glycogen.

[AlexParty]

Well everyone has their opinions. By the sound of it no one is 100% sure whether you get any benefits from doing a PWO carb/pro drink but this is what I can say about the matter. It's better to be safe then sorry. I rather be doing that then not. If I am not doing it and my body needs it then it's my loss. If my body doesn't need it and I'm doing it then it just turns into waste, that's ok.

[Neil5585]

Originally Posted by alan aragon

Good Lord.

This "window of opportunity" concept is bullshit. Sure, feed your hungry muscles with fast-acting carbs if you were dumb enough to skip your pre-workout or mid-workout carbs. All research indicating the benefit of quick carbs was done on OVERNIGHT FASTD SUBJECTS. Furthermore, here's what Berardi doesn't discuss in that article: It takes 90-120 minutes of CONTINUOUS high-moderate intensity work (with no rest) on a single muscle group to completely deplete glycogen.

We're overlooking a few key points here.

1. If you're on a low carb diet, you're not doing carbs the rest of the day so glycogen needs to be restored in that PWO period. Poliquin uses up to 200g PWO for certain lean athletes that work hard. Fast is also good because that way you get back into the low carb mode faster than if you had something that is going to take a long time to digest.

2. Protein, esp. hydrolysates and amino acids, plus high GI carbs like waxy maize, dextrose, maltodextrin, etc, causes a synergistic insulin spike MUCH higher, which is going to stimulate protein synthesis hopefully, and also be anti-catabolic (important PWO). Why do pros inject insulin instead of just eating a banana PWO to get massive?

3. Waxy maize, due to it's high molecular weight and how fast it works, will drive nutrients into muscle cells very well, such as creatine, beta alanine, vitamins, minerals, etc. This can make these supplements more effective.

[celc5]

Originally Posted by Neil5585

2. Protein, esp. hydrolysates and amino acids, plus high GI carbs like waxy maize, dextrose, maltodextrin, etc, causes a synergistic insulin spike MUCH higher, which is going to stimulate protein synthesis hopefully, and also be anti-catabolic (important PWO). Why do pros inject insulin instead of just eating a banana PWO to get massive?

This might be a stupid question but are we sure the nutrients are what CAUSES the isulin spike? I'm wondering if there's a workout enduced spike in the hormonal cascade... in which case, we'd say we need to take advantage of the insulin opportunity with proper nutrition. Unconfuse me fellas

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by celc5

This might be a stupid question but are we sure the nutrients are what CAUSES the isulin spike? I'm wondering if there's a workout enduced spike in the hormonal cascade... in which case, we'd say we need to take advantage of the insulin opportunity with proper nutrition. Unconfuse me fellas

Bolus insulin production is a reaction to SURPLUS energy from macronutrient intake.

I have a lot more to add but no time atm...

[lector606]

Originally Posted by AlexParty

People have different methods, I'm not telling anyone what to do. Do what you think is right for you, that's all. I'm an athlete, play AAA soccer so it's needed.

I guess so... but I mean I have at least two training sessions a day at least six days a week (usually one day a week I just do one), and I've never found this necessary.. maybe I am shortchanging myself but I doubt it.

Then again we usually do our conditioning workouts at like 7 AM, light cardio/stretching in the afternoon and then another workout at 8PM etc so I get enough breaks to have complete meals. If you had to go straight from the gym to soccer maybe you would benefit.

But I did a triathlon a few weeks ago, and let me tell you, after that I had some fast digesting carbs.. lol..

[AlexParty]

Originally Posted by lector606

I guess so... but I mean I have at least two training sessions a day at least six days a week (usually one day a week I just do one), and I've never found this necessary.. maybe I am shortchanging myself but I doubt it.

Then again we usually do our conditioning workouts at like 7 AM, light cardio/stretching in the afternoon and then another workout at 8PM etc so I get enough breaks to have complete meals. If you had to go straight from the gym to soccer maybe you would benefit.

But I did a triathlon a few weeks ago, and let me tell you, after that I had some fast digesting carbs.. lol..

Exactly, sometimes it's not necessary but sometimes it is. I use to train my legs insanely then go to practice. I didn't consume fast carbs after my workout one time and I was dead, completely finished for practice, that was embarrassing.

[lector606]

Originally Posted by AlexParty

Exactly, sometimes it's not necessary but sometimes it is. I use to train my legs insanely then go to practice. I didn't consume fast carbs after my workout one time and I was dead, completely finished for practice, that was embarrassing.

lol i HATE running after leg workouts, i'm useless

[EasyEJL]

I have yet to see any evidence that anything more than 20g of carbs is necessary, and that any more than 10g of protein with it makes any significant difference. that is enough to meet the immediate needs, and a full meal 30-60 minutes later will take care of the rest.

Although with the banana you are replenishing liver glycogen first, so maybe a different carb form than fructose would be slightly more beneficial for that immediate. I think that quinoa is probably one of the nicest, as it includes the protein with it

[AlexParty]

Originally Posted by lector606

lol i HATE running after leg workouts, i'm useless

LOL tell me about it. You say you do triathlons... man that's a ***** if you want to keep calories up.

[AlexParty]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

I have yet to see any evidence that anything more than 20g of carbs is necessary, and that any more than 10g of protein with it makes any significant difference. that is enough to meet the immediate needs, and a full meal 30-60 minutes later will take care of the rest.

Although with the banana you are replenishing liver glycogen first, so maybe a different carb form than fructose would be slightly more beneficial for that immediate. I think that quinoa is probably one of the nicest, as it includes the protein with it

It's funny I've read threads like this one about PWO shakes for years and years and years and it never ends LOL but I guess it's for the individual to decide his/her training regime.

[EasyEJL]

yeah, I think too its a big difference on personal body types, and what you are doing outside of the weight room too. I almost feel like a quick carb source is more beneficial to me after a cardio session than a weight session.

[OCCFan023]

Originally Posted by alan aragon

Good Lord.

This "window of opportunity" concept is bullshit. Sure, feed your hungry muscles with fast-acting carbs if you were dumb enough to skip your pre-workout or mid-workout carbs. All research indicating the benefit of quick carbs was done on OVERNIGHT FASTD SUBJECTS. Furthermore, here's what Berardi doesn't discuss in that article: It takes 90-120 minutes of CONTINUOUS high-moderate intensity work (with no rest) on a single muscle group to completely deplete glycogen.

Alan your pm box is completely full and I had a quick question I wanted to shoot you (couldn't even post it on you am space wall!)

I couldn't agree more with this. I personally believe in the concept of overall daily nutrient intake opposed to individual meals and so on and so forth. Personally I know my pre-workout meal is certainly still providing nutrients by the time I finish training. Only reason I eat 30 or so minutes within completion of training is because its 2-3 hours after my pre meal and I'm damn hungry. No need to be attempting to spike insulin levels.

[Nitrox]

Originally Posted by EasyEJL

Although with the banana you are replenishing liver glycogen first, so maybe a different carb form than fructose would be slightly more beneficial for that immediate.

Not true.

Firstly carb content of Banana is less than 50% fructose; there is a large percentage of glucose in there.

Secondly, don't confuse glycogen storage in the liver with fructose metabolism in the liver. Yes fructose must be converted to glucose in the liver but that does not mean that it stays there. If your energy balance is negative (ie. post workout) insulin will be low and glucagon will be up. The latter will cause the liver to release glucose stores into the bloodstream and become available to the body (muscles).

[Neil5585]

fructose content of bananas is actually closer to only 25%