Gr-Easy EJL's fish oil megadosing ala Charles Poliquin thread - AnabolicMinds.com - Page 4

Gr-Easy EJL's fish oil megadosing ala Charles Poliquin thread

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    So here's some skinny on Flax seed oil, and the DHA/EPA. Realistically I think that a significant fraction of the benefit of this megadosing comes from reaching the 2g of DHA mark. Its almost enough for me to buy the biotest flameout instead of loose oil (but not quite)


    Flax oil composition

    While flax seeds are an excellent source of omega 3 fat, they only contain one basic member of the omega 3 fat family. In the case of flax, virtually all of the omega 3 fat is found in the form of alpha linolenic acid (also just called linolenic acid). This specific kind of omega 3 fat makes up about 50% of the oil in flax seeds. In a 1-gram capsule of flax oil, there are about 500 milligrams of linolenic acid.

    The omega 3 assembly line starts with linolenic acid

    So that you can better understand how the fact that flax seeds feature a concentration of linolenic acid impacts their potential ability to be an overall good source of omega 3s, let's start with a basic chemistry review of the omega 3 family of fats.

    Omega 3s are a very diverse group of fats. Yet, all of the members fall into a basic pattern that can be imagined as a kind of metabolic assembly line.

    Fats can be measured in length according to the number of carbon atoms that they contain. Linolenic acid, that which is concentrated in flax seeds, has 18 carbons, making it the shortest of the omega 3 fats, and hence the simplest. It retains a position at the beginning of the assembly line with our omega 3 metabolism starting with this compound as a building block.

    Linolenic acid gets elongated into other omega 3 fatty acids

    If another pair of carbon atoms gets added on to linolenic acid (a process called "elongation" in biochemistry, and a process that is carried out by enzymes called "elongases"), it gets ready to become EPA (eicosapentaenoic acid), another important member of the omega 3 family. If yet another pair of carbons are added to EPA, it in turn gets ready to become DHA, (docosahexaenoic acid), a third important member of the omega 3s.

    Linolenic acids gets desaturated into other omega 3 fatty acids

    The reason we say that these omega 3 fats "get ready" to turn into other forms is because getting longer is not the only requirement for conversion of one omega 3 to another. A second requirement is what's called "increased desaturation." During this process, the omega 3 fat gets altered chemically so that its carbon atoms are connected together in a new way that provides more flexibility to the fat. This new kind of connection is called double-bonding. For linolenic acid (our starting point for the omega 3 assembly line) to become EPA, two new double bonds must be added in addition to the 2-carbon atom increase in length.

    The role of other nutrients in omega 3 metabolism

    The process of lengthening and changing, of elongating and desaturating, the chemical bonds in omega 3 fat is complex, and many nutrients are required to bring it about. To get from linolenic acid, the start of the omega 3 assembly line, to EPA, for example, the required nutrients are: vitamin B3, vitamin B6, vitamin C, zinc, and magnesium.
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    O i know but it just seems way to tough for me even with bulking and eating everything is site.

    I'm going to be cutting on the CKD and it would def. kill me then.
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    All that fish oil would mean too much vitamin E...
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    BTW, Distilled...when I write Flax Oil...I mean Flax Oil...not what Barry thinks is Flax Oil! Da Clear Baby!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    O i know but it just seems way to tough for me even with bulking and eating everything is site.

    I'm going to be cutting on the CKD and it would def. kill me then.
    legs day completely kills me (that was today). I'm half asleep the rest of the day
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewilman View Post
    BTW, Distilled...when I write Flax Oil...I mean Flax Oil...not what Barry thinks is Flax Oil! Da Clear Baby!


    man there go's that fun......I was wondering if anyone would say somthing about the "flax oil" and my bonds avy. Well done
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zombie View Post
    i was going to ask you about this. im not taking big doses of Fish oil , but since i runned out of cycle support i increased my dose from 6 gr ED to 9.6-12 gr and i have noticed that my blood got a nice bright red color and it takes longer to coagulate and to form scabs and once the scabs are formed they can be easyly removed. i got a nose bleed 3 days ago and it hasnt healed completely. it starts healing and eveything but if i sneeze i start with the nose bleed and it takes time to heal again. i think im going to drop the fish oil a few days till my nose bleeds stop.
    I can't imagine this would any worse than the nose bleeds I had while on superdrol...those damn things would come at the worst times, usually when I was doing heavy bench or squat.

    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    I can't think of any reason why, other than possibly from its anti inflammatory effects, but that seems to not effect muscle growth negatively. I think it could be a big plus really in that it would help to keep lipid profiles straighter.

    Really I'm not sure whether I personally would take it on a cycle tho, moreso use it during post cycle therapy + time off. that way its a bridge kind of, can keep gains going potentially and help fix any cholesterol damage. I'm not sure tho really. It just would seem to be something of a waste to take it with a ph/ps, at least from what results i've gotten so far from fish oil alone.
    I'm currently mega-dosing fish oils while on a pulse cycle of epi/e-form. For those of us with joint problems, this could be a god send if the anecdotal evidence is true....
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    Quote Originally Posted by beallio View Post
    I can't imagine this would any worse than the nose bleeds I had while on superdrol...those damn things would come at the worst times, usually when I was doing heavy bench or squat.
    That's when your BP is highest...pretty scary the 1st time it happens...your like oh crap...I think I just had a stroke!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post


    man there go's that fun......I was wondering if anyone would say somthing about the "flax oil" and my bonds avy. Well done
    Couldn't let that pass

    Barry Bonds was taking Flax Oil and David Boston was taking Fish Oil...combined they put on 50+ lbs of muscle...could happen
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    Has anyone read the October issue of Muscular Development?? It has a very interesting article in it about NSAIDs and fish oil, basically stating that they can PREVENT muscle growth due to it's anti-inflammatory effects it has on muscle. It states that diets high in omega 3 fatty acids decrease prostaglandin production and diets high in omega-6 fatty acids increase prostaglandin production(think Arachidonic Acid the active found in X-Factor). They went on to say that it decreases COX-2 production, which is essential for muscle growth.
    So on the one hand you have all the positive effects such as pain reduction, cardiovascular benefits, better glucose uptake, and improved insulin sensitivity. And on the downside by increasing omega 3's you lower your levels on PGF2A and PGE2 via reducing muscle inflammation and lower arachidonic acid production.......just some food for though guys.
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewilman View Post
    That's when your BP is highest...pretty scary the 1st time it happens...your like oh crap...I think I just had a stroke!
    haha, at first I thought it was due to the weather (dry weather has an adverse effect on the membranes in my nose. Lovely, I know). Luckily, I had those little nose tampons on hand. Cram one up, hock out the blood, continue to lift.
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    Quote Originally Posted by beallio View Post
    haha, at first I thought it was due to the weather (dry weather has an adverse effect on the membranes in my nose. Lovely, I know). Luckily, I had those little nose tampons on hand. Cram one up, hock out the blood, continue to lift.
    I like your style B!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadream View Post
    Has anyone read the October issue of Muscular Development?? It has a very interesting article in it about NSAIDs and fish oil, basically stating that they can PREVENT muscle growth due to it's anti-inflammatory effects it has on muscle. It states that diets high in omega 3 fatty acids decrease prostaglandin production and diets high in omega-6 fatty acids increase prostaglandin production(think Arachidonic Acid the active found in X-Factor). They went on to say that it decreases COX-2 production, which is essential for muscle growth.
    So on the one hand you have all the positive effects such as pain reduction, cardiovascular benefits, better glucose uptake, and improved insulin sensitivity. And on the downside by increasing omega 3's you lower your levels on PGF2A and PGE2 via reducing muscle inflammation and lower arachidonic acid production.......just some food for though guys.

    Interesting. I don't think tho that fish oil acts as a cox 2 inhibitor, but maybe. I'll look for that issue at the grocery store later
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewilman View Post
    Couldn't let that pass

    Barry Bonds was taking Flax Oil and David Boston was taking Fish Oil...combined they put on 50+ lbs of muscle...could happen
    Hey atleast we know their secrets now
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    so if I take flax oil and fish oild I could put on over 50lbs?
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Interesting. I don't think tho that fish oil acts as a cox 2 inhibitor, but maybe. I'll look for that issue at the grocery store later
    Does anyone know if MD provided links to studies?

    I knew COX-2 inhibitors had an adverse affect on muscle development (hence my propensity to stay away from them unless necessary), but I wonder how someone would explain football players...

    Each level you move up in football, the more NSAIDs become like candy. I don't know many who survived a season without taking at minimum a couple bottles. Most bottles (or blister packs, Drs loved handing out free samples) would last a week. Maybe days...
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    well, it could be another one of those things where we get all crazy about it if it knocks 10-20% off what muscle is added, but the nfl player could give a damn.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    well, it could be another one of those things where we get all crazy about it if it knocks 10-20% off what muscle is added, but the nfl player could give a damn.

    Funny how sometimes everything is just a matter of perspective...

    Edit: I meant how we scoff at losing 10-20%, but other would not.
    Last edited by beallio; 09-21-2007 at 03:21 PM. Reason: Clarification
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    I wish that MD article listed doses that would have this effect. I mean if you were on an aspirin regimen(2 baby aspirin)per day does anyone think this matters?Personally I don't think whatever benefits of dropping the aspirin are worth whatever muscle growth they claim you would be getting. Again dose is the question. BTW a writer for MD( I don't even think this article )writes about this in his book-Extreme Muscle Enhancement by Carlon M. Colker,MD.He says specifically don't take aspirin but IMO if you are older and already have enough size and want benefits of aspirin I say take it at low dose.One more thing-Years ago loads of people took ECA combo and did not lose a lot of muscle I don't think, in fact I bet some would say they gained muscle while losing fat or just lost fat.I don't think it affected my muscle growth when I did ECA combo.Well I guess everybody will have to choose what to do-If I was younger I would probably avoid NSAIDs. If older and need benefits of aspirin-like me then take it at low dose-again only 2 baby aspirin and nothing else.
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    legs day completely kills me (that was today). I'm half asleep the rest of the day
    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I could see doing volume training once in a while for a week maybe to mix it up but at an advanced age I think it's hard enough some times to recover from a limited amount of intense sets nevermind 10 per part with the 10 reps. I'm curious as to what your complete program looks like as far as split, days off, etc.? Thanks.BTW I might just do the week to mix it up like I mentioned-haven't done volume training in what seems like forever.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Distilled Water View Post
    HAHA I got you.

    Well wilman & xjsynx if you can wait until Jan 3rd I'll be doing most all that on my CKD, minus the GVT. The GVT may kill me while bulking
    Right on bro.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadream View Post
    Has anyone read the October issue of Muscular Development?? It has a very interesting article in it about NSAIDs and fish oil, basically stating that they can PREVENT muscle growth due to it's anti-inflammatory effects it has on muscle. It states that diets high in omega 3 fatty acids decrease prostaglandin production and diets high in omega-6 fatty acids increase prostaglandin production(think Arachidonic Acid the active found in X-Factor). They went on to say that it decreases COX-2 production, which is essential for muscle growth.
    So on the one hand you have all the positive effects such as pain reduction, cardiovascular benefits, better glucose uptake, and improved insulin sensitivity. And on the downside by increasing omega 3's you lower your levels on PGF2A and PGE2 via reducing muscle inflammation and lower arachidonic acid production.......just some food for though guys.

    Yeah I would like to hear a counter argument to this. Mega dosing fish oil was sounding good until this came up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I could see doing volume training once in a while for a week maybe to mix it up but at an advanced age I think it's hard enough some times to recover from a limited amount of intense sets nevermind 10 per part with the 10 reps. I'm curious as to what your complete program looks like as far as split, days off, etc.? Thanks.BTW I might just do the week to mix it up like I mentioned-haven't done volume training in what seems like forever.
    Correct you shouldn't do Volume training for a long time, but for a cycle of 4-6 weeks is a nice plateau buster...
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
    I'm not trying to be a jerk but I could see doing volume training once in a while for a week maybe to mix it up but at an advanced age I think it's hard enough some times to recover from a limited amount of intense sets nevermind 10 per part with the 10 reps. I'm curious as to what your complete program looks like as far as split, days off, etc.? Thanks.BTW I might just do the week to mix it up like I mentioned-haven't done volume training in what seems like forever.
    its painful, its just enough time to recover too. Its a 3 days out of 5 rotation, the specter of squats again only 5 days later is always enough to haunt me.

    Day 1: Chest and Back

    Exercise Sets Reps Tempo Rest Interval
    A-1 Decline Dumbbell Presses, Semi-Supinated Grip (palms facing each other) 10 10 4 0 2 0 90 sec
    A-2 Chin-Ups (palms facing you) 10 10 4 0 2 0 90 sec
    B-1 Incline Dumbbell Flies 3 10-12 3 0 2 0 60 sec
    B-2 One-Arm Dumbbell Rows 3 10-12 3 0 2 0 60 sec

    Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each "A" exercise and each superset; rest 60 seconds between each "B" exercise and each superset. Incidentally, I only recommend three sets of ten in this program for the "B" exercises. The "B" exercises constitute supplementary work, and doing ten sets of them would result in over-training.

    Day 2: Legs and Abs Exercise Sets Reps Tempo Rest Interval
    A-1 Back Squats 10 10 4 0 2 0 90 sec
    A-2 Lying Leg Curls 10 10 4 0 2 0 90 sec
    B-1 Low-Cable Pull-Ins* 3 15-20 2 0 2 0 60 sec
    B-2 Seated Calf Raises 3 15-20 2 0 2 0 60 sec


    (*Take a weightlifting belt and buckle it. Attach it to the low pulley of a cable crossover machine. Lie down on your back in front of the machine, and hook your feet in the belt. Then pull your knees towards your chest.)

    Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each "A" exercise and each superset; rest 60 seconds between each "B" exercise and each superset.

    Day 3: Off

    Day 4: Arms and Shoulders

    Exercise Sets Reps Tempo Rest Interval
    A-1 Parallel Bar Dips 10 10 4 0 2 0 90 sec
    A-2 Incline Hammer Curls 10 10 4 0 2 0 90 sec
    B-1 Bent-Over Dumbbell Lateral Raises* 3 10-12 2 0 X 0 60 sec
    B-2 Seated Dumbbell Lateral Raises 3 10-12 2 0 X 0 60 sec

    (*While seated on the edge of a bench with your torso bent over, raise the dumbbells out to the side, making sure the top two knuckles (the ones closest to your thumb) are in line with your ears at the top of the movement.)

    Notes: Rest 90 seconds between each "A" exercise and each superset; rest 60 seconds between each "B" exercise and each superset. "X" in the tempo means to move as fast as possible, keeping the weight under control.

    Day 5: Off
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    The part of the article that relevant to fish oil was cited as:
    Calder PC. N-3 polyunsaturated fatty acids and inflammation: from molecular biology to the clinic.
    lipids,2003 Apr;38(4):343-52. Review.
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    Well, anecdotally at least, Poliquin's results seem to refute this claim. More than likely EPA/DHA are only suppressing AA and COX to certain extent, ie keeping them within a certain range and this range is still enough to promote muscle growth.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dadream View Post
    Has anyone read the October issue of Muscular Development?? It has a very interesting article in it about NSAIDs and fish oil, basically stating that they can PREVENT muscle growth due to it's anti-inflammatory effects it has on muscle. It states that diets high in omega 3 fatty acids decrease prostaglandin production and diets high in omega-6 fatty acids increase prostaglandin production(think Arachidonic Acid the active found in X-Factor). They went on to say that it decreases COX-2 production, which is essential for muscle growth.
    So on the one hand you have all the positive effects such as pain reduction, cardiovascular benefits, better glucose uptake, and improved insulin sensitivity. And on the downside by increasing omega 3's you lower your levels on PGF2A and PGE2 via reducing muscle inflammation and lower arachidonic acid production.......just some food for though guys.
    I was curious about this as well, but give CP the benefit of the doubt. To bad he doesn't respond to his articles like he use to, or else I would ask him.
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    Maybe I will contact CT, he is great at responding...
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
    but at an advanced age like you - Easy you old bastage - I think it's hard enough some times to recover
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    Quote Originally Posted by b_delgros View Post
    Yeah I would like to hear a counter argument to this. Mega dosing fish oil was sounding good until this came up.
    Counter argument 1 is "its Muscular Development for christs sakes". number 2 is "fish oil is a Cox 1 inhibitor, not a Cox 2"

    Dietary fish oil causes its prostaglandin-lowering effects through three different mechanisms, says Dr. Smith.

    First, the much fewer prostaglandins are made from omega 3 fatty acids as compared to the other class of fatty acids in the body, the omega 6 family of fatty acids that originate in the diet from leafy vegetables and other plant sources.

    Second, the omega 3 fatty acids compete with omega 6 fatty acids for the same binding site on the COX 1 enzyme that converts the omega 6 fatty acids to prostaglandin (which is why the COX 1 enzyme and its COX 2 cousin are the targets of anti-inflammatory drugs like ibuprofen). The more omega 3 fatty acids present to block the binding sites, the fewer omega 6 fatty acids are able to be converted to prostaglandin.

    Third, although omega 3 fatty acids also are converted to prostaglandins, the prostaglandins formed from omega 3 are generally 2 to 50 times less active than those formed from the omega 6 fatty acids from dietary plants.
    So different action than asprin/ibuprofen. Also, from this article note the reasoning why x-factor is not meant to be used with high dose fish oil


    FISH-OIL: A NOVEL ANTI-INFLAMMATORY MECHANISM
    Inflammation is a critical defense mechanism, protecting an organism from pathogens and tumor formation. These processes require tight regulation, and when uncontrolled can result in tissue destruction and contribute to chronic conditions with inflammatory pathogenesis including autoimmune disease, atherosclerosis, asthma, and Alzheimer's disease. Molecules with important roles in inflammation include proinflammatory leukotrienes and prostaglandins. These are produced from conversion of the omega-6 fatty acid arachidonic acid (AA), via the enzymes cyclooxygenase (COX) and lipoxygenase. In contrast, it has long been known that omega-3 fatty acids enriched in fish oils have beneficial anti-inflammatory properties.1 Similar to AA, the omega-3 fatty acids eicosapentanoic acid (EPA) and docosahexanoic acid (DHA) are substrates for COX and lipoxygenase. Therefore, it has been proposed that EPA and DHA may suppress the pro-inflammatory activities of AA and its metabolites via both competition for the same enzymatic pathway, and the induction of products with lesser inflammatory activity.2 One EPA derivative termed Resolvin E1 (RvE1) has received recent attention, and the discovery of its receptor provides evidence for a novel mechanism underlying its anti-inflammatory activity.
    So note that althought it competes with AA, the mechanism that AA uses to enhance growth is not necessarily the only mechanism that muscles can use to grow
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    Right now i'm taking vitamin shoppe brand in liquid, and its costing under $1/day. Custom Nutrition Warehouse (a board sponsor) has their caps at a ridiculously low price too - 1000 1g caps for $28 I think, so also under $1/day.
    I didn't know you could get it that cheap, but to get 30 grams of the caps would require taking 30 caps a day and those capsuls can be hard on the stomach. I would go with the liquid.
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    Quote Originally Posted by bioman View Post
    Well, anecdotally at least, Poliquin's results seem to refute this claim. More than likely EPA/DHA are only suppressing AA and COX to certain extent, ie keeping them within a certain range and this range is still enough to promote muscle growth.
    I think this is the case. Also for ythe record I am at an advanced age myself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
    I think this is the case. Also for ythe record I am at an advanced age myself.
    I was messing w/ Easy...I...am...at...an...adva nced...oh..well, you can see my age! We need an emoticon with an old man w/ a cane!

    Easy is like my older bother!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by cardiffgiant View Post
    I think this is the case. Also for ythe record I am at an advanced age myself.
    Actually, set your profile, be proud! age shows maturity too!
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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    Quote Originally Posted by EasyEJL View Post
    ...age shows maturity too!
    True. Take me for instance.....
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    oh look it's tripdog....
    The LORD is my rock, my fortress, and my savior; my God is my rock, in whom I find protection. He is my shield, the power that saves me, and my place of safety.-Psalm 18:2
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    Quote Originally Posted by xjsynx View Post
    True. Take me for instance.....
    There is always an exception to TEH rule!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewilman View Post
    I was messing w/ Easy...I...am...at...an...adva nced...oh..well, you can see my age! We need an emoticon with an old man w/ a cane!

    Easy is like my older bother!!!

    I second the emoticon. Though I need it not for age, but abuse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by TripDog View Post
    oh look it's tripdog....
    You are like the David Koresh of AM! You have your own disciples!
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    Quote Originally Posted by thewilman View Post
    I was messing w/ Easy...I...am...at...an...adva nced...oh..well, you can see my age! We need an emoticon with an old man w/ a cane!

    Easy is like my older bother!!!

    watch how you talk to your elders young man!
    This space for rent

    Phenadrol Log http://anabolicminds.com/forum/suppl...-hell-did.html - AMAZING fat loss results so far
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