Uh oh...

  1. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892

    Uh oh...


    Looks like possible bad news for the IF crowd

    Dietary Protein Distribution Positively
    Influences 24-h Muscle Protein Synthesis in
    Healthy Adults

    Abstract

    The RDA for protein describes the quantity that should be consumed daily to meet population needs and to prevent deficiency. Protein consumption in many countries exceeds the RDA; however, intake is often skewed toward the evening meal, whereas breakfast is typically carbohydrate rich and low in protein. We examined the effects of protein distribution on 24-h skeletal muscle protein synthesis in healthy adult men and women (n = 8; age: 36.9 6 3.1 y; BMI: 25.7 6 0.8 kg/ m2). By using a 7-d crossover feeding design with a 30-d washout period, we measured changes in muscle protein synthesis in response to isoenergetic and isonitrogenous diets with protein at breakfast, lunch, and dinner distributed evenly (EVEN; 31.5 6 1.3, 29.9 6 1.6, and 32.7 6 1.6 g protein, respectively) or skewed (SKEW; 10.7 6 0.8, 16.0 6 0.5, and 63.4 6 3.7 g protein, respectively). Over 24-h periods on days 1 and 7, venous blood samples and vastus lateralis muscle biopsy samples were obtained during primed (2.0 mmol/kg) constant infusion [0.06 mmol/(kgmin)] of L-[ring-13C6] phenylalanine. The 24-h mixed muscle protein fractional synthesis rate was 25% higher in the EVEN (0.075 6 0.006%/h) vs. the SKEW (0.056 6 0.006%/h) protein distribution groups (P = 0.003). This pattern was maintained after 7 d of habituation to each diet (EVEN vs. SKEW: 0.077 6 0.006 vs. 0.056 6 0.006%/h; P = 0.001). The consumption of a moderate amount of protein at each meal stimulated 24-h muscle protein synthesis more effectively than skewing protein intake toward the evening meal.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates

  2. Registered User
    Piston Honda's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  200 lbs.
    Join Date
    Aug 2012
    Posts
    4,829
    Rep Power
    6809142

    I guess people should go back to eating when they're hungry! Oh nature.
    BOARD TYRANT
  3. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Evening Meal?
    ok great.. that doesnt really tell us how well we should space out our feedings or how often we should eat (timing wise) there really was no specific evidence regarding that or proper timing of meals in the 24 hours (like in Laynes MPS Study). That is a blank statement. I still spread my meals out around 4 hours or so which Layne does recommend for MPS

    IF is not all about eating 1 single meal or 1 large meal. Many people still IF and eat 3 meals which is fine. (and what martin does reccomend)
    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
    •   
       

  4. Enhanced Body Formulations
    Board Sponsor
    EBF Inc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,621
    Rep Power
    1541316

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Looks like possible bad news for the IF crowd
    That's why leucine rich bcaa are consumed
    Enhanced Body Formulations Product Educator
    For any questions on our products that need a quick response, please email me directly
    EnhancedBodyFormulations@gmail .com
  5. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892

    Quote Originally Posted by T-Bone View Post
    So just eat protein at each meal. That's all the study is really saying, correct?.
    it is suggesting that it may be better to evenly distribute your protein intake across all of your meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) as opposed to consuming the majority of it at once in the evening
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  6. Enhanced Body Formulations
    Board Sponsor
    EBF Inc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,621
    Rep Power
    1541316

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    it is suggesting that it may be better to evenly distribute your protein intake across all of your meals (breakfast, lunch, dinner) as opposed to consuming the majority of it at once in the evening
    But what's the main contributor to mps? Leucine... So it's apparent leucine content was higher in thee higher protein meal
    Enhanced Body Formulations Product Educator
    For any questions on our products that need a quick response, please email me directly
    EnhancedBodyFormulations@gmail .com
  7. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    Evening Meal?
    ok great.. that doesnt really tell us how well we should space out our feedings or how often we should eat (timing wise) there really was no specific evidence regarding that or proper timing of meals in the 24 hours
    Neither I nor the researchers claimed any of these so not sure where you are drawing them from? All the researchers are concluding is that it might be best if you space protein intake throughout the day as opposed to getting the bulk of it in the evening.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    (like in Laynes MPS Study). That is a blank statement. I still spread my meals out around 4 hours or so which Layne does recommend for MPS
    Layne Nortons hypothesis (note: it is his hypothesis, not a study. As far as I know he has yet to perform one demonstrating this - http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf ) is partially based of this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15572657 and has been critiqued by a few individuals (including your favorite author Aragon ). In the Paddon-Jones study they fed participants an in-between the meal supplement (30g CHO & 15g EAA) to half and a placebo to the other half and found that the ones who consumed the in-between meal supplement had a greater anabolic response than the group that did not receive the supplement. Layne uses this to help form his hypothesis but a major flaw with the Padon-Jones study is that they failed to control for macro intake. The placebo group got 64g PRO/day while the experimental group got 109g PRO/day. It is pretty easy to guess why the experimental group had a great anabolic response (MOAR PROTEIN).

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    IF is not all about eating 1 single meal or 1 large meal. Many people still IF and eat 3 meals which is fine. (and what martin does reccomend)
    Agreed but unfortunately many have limited their evening feeding sessions into only 2-3.

    Now anecdotally from my personal experience playing around with IF I would sometimes get the vast majority of my protein intake in a single sitting on some days and didn't really notice any difference in body composition vs. spreading my meals apart. I believe @EBF Inc has experimented with this too
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  8. Enhanced Body Formulations
    Board Sponsor
    EBF Inc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Posts
    4,621
    Rep Power
    1541316

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post

    Neither I nor the researchers claimed any of these so not sure where you are drawing them from? All the researchers are concluding is that it might be best if you space protein intake throughout the day as opposed to getting the bulk of it in the evening.

    Layne Nortons hypothesis (note: it is his hypothesis, not a study. As far as I know he has yet to perform one demonstrating this - http://www.biolayne.com/wp-content/u...-Tech-2008.pdf ) is partially based of this - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15572657 and has been critiqued by a few individuals (since as your favorite author Aragon ). In the Paddon-Jones study they fed participants a between the meal supplement (30g CHO & 15g EAA) to half and a placebo to the other half and found that the ones who consumed the in-between meal supplement had a greater anabolic response than the group that did not receive the supplement. Layne uses this to help form his hypothesis but a major flaw with the Padon-Jones study is that they failed to control for macro intake. The placebo group got 64g PRO/day while the experimental group got 109g PRO/day. It is pretty easy to guess why the experimental group had a great anabolic response (MOAR PROTEIN).

    Agreed but unfortunately many have limited their evening feeding sessions into only 2-3.

    Now anecdotally from my personal experience playing around with IF I would sometimes get the vast majority of my protein intake in a single sitting on some days and didn't really notice any difference in body composition vs. spreading my meals apart. I believe @EBF Inc has experimented with this too
    I do, peak week with 1 meal a day, refeed every 3.

    Aminos every few hours

    I personally can't do multiple meals. Even 3 is trouble for me BC that cuts my intake and my appetite is too big
    Enhanced Body Formulations Product Educator
    For any questions on our products that need a quick response, please email me directly
    EnhancedBodyFormulations@gmail .com
  9. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892

    Anyway, I am simply sharing what the recent research is showing, didn't really make any real comment besides the "looks like possible bad news". Honestly the study probably has very little significance to us.

    If you look at the full text you see the evenly distributed group (EVEN) had 31g, 29.9g, 32g for their 3 meals while the ones who got the majority of their protein in the evening (SKEW) had 10g, 16g, 63g for their 3 meals. With only 1 of the SKEW groups meals hitting leucine threshold (63g) and all 3 of the EVEN groups meals hitting leucine threshold, I am not surprised that the EVEN group experienced greater muscle protein synthesis than the SKEW group.

    That said the study is still interesting. I hope someone follows up with a similar one but this time up the total protein intake (current study participants only got 90-94g of protein/day) and have the lower protein meals hit the leucine threshold. For example they could do 30g, 30g, 120g vs. 60g, 60g, 60g.
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  10. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892

    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    That's why leucine rich bcaa are consumed
    since reading this paper - whey + leucine = MOAR GAINZ! - I am not entirely sure leucine alone is enough. It appears you also need a decent amount of substrate with your leucine.

    This also is something I would see research on though. If we have one group consume enough leucine to hit threshold twice in the morning and then have a huge meal in the evening and compare it to a group that has a normal day of eating. Match macronutrient and calories and see what happens. Ahhh.. so many options that I can do my dissertation on

    Quote Originally Posted by EBF Inc View Post
    But what's the main contributor to mps? Leucine... So it's apparent leucine content was higher in thee higher protein meal
    Yup! See my post above. The EVEN group hit leucine threshold 3 times while the SKEW group only hit it once. Pretty easy explanation for why the researchers observed a greater MPS in EVEN
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  11. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  12. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    Now anecdotally from my personal experience playing around with IF I would sometimes get the vast majority of my protein intake in a single sitting on some days and didn't really notice any difference in body composition vs. spreading my meals apart. I believe @EBF Inc has experimented with this too
    I Agree here, but i still like to spread mine out quite a bit and not save all my protein for one meal
    I always spread it out and distribute evenly and since i have compared to 2 meals ive seen a better change, even a better change then when i use to be bro and ate 6 meals a day feeling hungry all the time, and having less performance in the gym. Since ive moved to 3 i have found better body comp, better performance, and superior appetite control.
    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
  13. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  14. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Research is great as both you and I know, but in the end we take it with a grain of salt and apply it to see how it treats us and adjust based off what our body shows.
    Especially in this day and age with meal frequency, supplements, timing etc, and how they can vast and how different people get amazing results of different things.
    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
  15. Registered User
    johntpatterso's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    100
    Rep Power
    1173

    there are articles for and against almost every strategy in diet and exercise. do what fits you best. i personally love IF. i've been staying lean and gaining muscle. i don't need a study to tell me to change my thinking. find what works for you
  16. Registered User
    kisaj's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    40
    Posts
    4,164
    Rep Power
    1147048

    I have been doing a version of IF that has worked amazing and I won't ever go back. I eat in a 8 hour window, skip breakfast, and I don't pay attention to it being 3 meals or 6 meals, I just pay attention to staying in that window and inline with my macros. I tend to eat higher proteins in the earlier part of the day and heavier in carbs in the evening.

    I've lost 6 lbs in 6 weeks and strength has gone up considerably. I've broke through multiple PRs in the last month.
  17. Registered User
    johntpatterso's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    100
    Rep Power
    1173

    That's awesome man. I'm loving IF, been doing it for almost a full year now. Its great being able to eat big meals and still get lean
  18. Registered User
    kisaj's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    40
    Posts
    4,164
    Rep Power
    1147048

    That is the best part. I don't feel like I am even doing anything, yet the fat is shedding and the strength gains continue to climb.
  19. Registered User
    johntpatterso's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  195 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    100
    Rep Power
    1173

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    That is the best part. I don't feel like I am even doing anything, yet the fat is shedding and the strength gains continue to climb.
    Exactly! And after a while fasting in the morning becomes so easy. You don't even get hungry or notice it. Its beautiful
  20. Registered User
    kisaj's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    40
    Posts
    4,164
    Rep Power
    1147048

    Yep, it took me about a week or two, but now I don't even think about food until 11ish and I train at 9:30am, so it works perfectly.
  21. Pro Virili Parte
    Board Sponsor
    JudoJosh's Avatar
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Location
    NJ
    Age
    29
    Posts
    8,770
    Rep Power
    2088892

    I found drinking seltzer water helped with hunger cravings
    "The only good is knowledge and the only evil is ignorance." - Socrates
  22. Registered User
    Sean1332's Avatar
    Stats
    5'9"  217 lbs.
    Join Date
    Jul 2012
    Posts
    11,031
    Rep Power
    2242799

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    Yep, it took me about a week or two, but now I don't even think about food until 11ish and I train at 9:30am, so it works perfectly.
    I started carb backloading recently. I thought hunger and energy was gonna kill me throughout the day but I was actually surprised it didn't!

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I found drinking seltzer water helped with hunger cravings
    Yuck. That'd do the opossite for me. I'd have to eat food to get rid of the damn taste!
    Controlled Labs Board Rep
    sean@ControlledLabs.com
    CONTROLLED LABS products are produced in a GMP for Sport certified facility.
  23. Registered User
    kisaj's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    40
    Posts
    4,164
    Rep Power
    1147048

    I find myself having to be conscious of not being the annoying, "You have to try this.." guy. But everytime someone starts talking about diets and eating, I keep wanting to bring it up. It's exciting.
  24. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I found drinking seltzer water helped with hunger cravings
    Drink 2 gallons of water a day = kills appetite
    that and diet soda destroys my stomach. Same with coffee
    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
  25. Registered User
    Ristonian's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2014
    Posts
    41
    Rep Power
    100

    Quote Originally Posted by kisaj View Post
    I have been doing a version of IF that has worked amazing and I won't ever go back. I eat in a 8 hour window, skip breakfast, and I don't pay attention to it being 3 meals or 6 meals, I just pay attention to staying in that window and inline with my macros. I tend to eat higher proteins in the earlier part of the day and heavier in carbs in the evening. I've lost 6 lbs in 6 weeks and strength has gone up considerably. I've broke through multiple PRs in the last month.
    Carbs in the evening? Insulin will be up and gh will be down yo.
  26. Registered User
    kisaj's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    40
    Posts
    4,164
    Rep Power
    1147048

    Quote Originally Posted by Ristonian View Post
    Carbs in the evening? Insulin will be up and gh will be down yo.
    Broscience, man. It works.
  27. Registered User
    jswain34's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  213 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Age
    22
    Posts
    1,046
    Rep Power
    452979

    Isn't one of the guidelines of IF to get around .5 of your total daily protein in the fast breaking meal? I know when i consume 3 meals a day its a large fast break of about .5 daily kcal + .5 daily protein intake then a small afternoon and another large evening meal. Wouldn't that large bolus in the initial fast break help with the mps due to the large resulting amino pool?
    Current Unsponsored XGELS log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/238229-jswains-run-xgels.html
  28. Registered User
    kisaj's Avatar
    Stats
    6'0"  210 lbs.
    Join Date
    Feb 2012
    Location
    Colorado
    Age
    40
    Posts
    4,164
    Rep Power
    1147048

    I break my fast with a protein shake or eggs and a BCAA drink. On workout days I get in about 200-250g of carbs and consume about half after a workout and then consume very little in my other daily meals and then have 1/3 with my last meal.

    I will be honest that I am sure you could get as complicated as you wanted but the whole reason I decided to do this was for ease of use. No thinking and no worrying about eating all the time. It just happens to be a very nice side effect to be dropping fat along with the convenience.
  29. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Quote Originally Posted by jswain34 View Post
    Isn't one of the guidelines of IF to get around .5 of your total daily protein in the fast breaking meal? I know when i consume 3 meals a day its a large fast break of about .5 daily kcal + .5 daily protein intake then a small afternoon and another large evening meal. Wouldn't that large bolus in the initial fast break help with the mps due to the large resulting amino pool?
    How you meet your macros is personal preference, i spread my intake pretty even over all 3 meals.
    you can adjust your larger meals or equal them in kcals, it will not matter in the end if you meet your caloric intake in the 24hour period or 7 day week towards your goal of a deficit or surplus.
    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
  30. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    If frequent feedings stoke the metabolic furnace why didn't pro bodybuilders go the extra mile and go on IV amino infusions?
    PES Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com
  31. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Quote Originally Posted by bdcc View Post
    If frequent feedings stoke the metabolic furnace why didn't pro bodybuilders go the extra mile and go on IV amino infusions?
    You need one of these bro

    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
  32. Registered User
    jswain34's Avatar
    Stats
    6'3"  213 lbs.
    Join Date
    Oct 2011
    Age
    22
    Posts
    1,046
    Rep Power
    452979

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    How you meet your macros is personal preference, i spread my intake pretty even over all 3 meals. you can adjust your larger meals or equal them in kcals, it will not matter in the end if you meet your caloric intake in the 24hour period or 7 day week towards your goal of a deficit or surplus.
    I understand that, i was just saying that if: 1) protein is spread out evenly as you do, or 2) a large proportion of daily protein is taken in in the first meal as i do then the study's finding that MPS is slowed as a result of saving the large portion of protein for the final meal would be weakened wouldnt it? Considering this isnt how most people set it up normally anyway?
    Current Unsponsored XGELS log
    http://anabolicminds.com/forum/supplement-reviews-logs/238229-jswains-run-xgels.html
  33. Registered User
    bdcc's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2009
    Location
    Oxford, England
    Posts
    10,153
    Rep Power
    10502186

    Quote Originally Posted by The Solution View Post
    You need one of these bro

    Maximum stoking of the metabolic furnace.
    PES Representative
    http://pescience.com/insider
    http://selectprotein.com
  34. Registered User
    The Solution's Avatar
    Stats
    5'7"  175 lbs.
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Posts
    8,757
    Rep Power
    6322260

    Quote Originally Posted by jswain34 View Post
    I understand that, i was just saying that if: 1) protein is spread out evenly as you do, or 2) a large proportion of daily protein is taken in in the first meal as i do then the study's finding that MPS is slowed as a result of saving the large portion of protein for the final meal would be weakened wouldnt it? Considering this isnt how most people set it up normally anyway?
    If you know that MPS is slowed why would you do that? MPS is slowed on a less frequent feeding as Layne's MPS Study shows a meal every 4-6 hours is optimal, so you could spread it out evently as i tried to tell you like noon, 4, 8 and even it out.

    Now if you want to do like 100g of protein in meal 1
    50g in meal 2
    and 50g in meal 3

    that is totally up to you and personal preference. i just prefer to spread mine out evenly.
    Team ScoobyPrep - Unleash Your Potential
  35. Registered User
    PuZo's Avatar
    Stats
    6'2"  188 lbs.
    Join Date
    Apr 2010
    Location
    Calgary, Alberta, Canada
    Posts
    1,440
    Rep Power
    409376

    Quote Originally Posted by JudoJosh View Post
    I found drinking seltzer water helped with hunger cravings
    Is that cause it made you bloated?
    iForce Nutrition Representative
    iTrain. iCompete. iDominate…iForce!
    www.iforcenutrition.com
  •   

      
     

Similar Forum Threads

  1. Doctor calls patient fat..."uh oh!"
    By kwyckemynd00 in forum News and Articles
    Replies: 47
    Last Post: 08-29-2005, 02:36 PM
  2. uh oh girlfriend might be preggo....
    By good_guye28 in forum General Chat
    Replies: 20
    Last Post: 08-04-2003, 09:16 AM
  3. Uh Oh...Overtraining
    By YellowJacket in forum Exercise Science
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 12-25-2002, 05:31 PM
  4. Uh-Oh...Prohormone Bill
    By true_c in forum General Chat
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 10-26-2002, 06:37 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Log in

Log in